How to set boundaries that won't infuriate my H

[SadWifeofBPD]

I'm not clear on how to set boundaries that won't infuriate my H.  When I read the link, this struck me as not possible with H:

]This is the post that I have saved on my desktop on "Medium Chill".

Re: How Do I Handle Indirect Insults and Projections?

« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2004, 08:18:39 AM »

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I was just brushing up on a technique that I'll need this weekend to deal with a BPD relative. It's called "Medium Chill", and it was taught to me by a friend whose mother suffers from BPD.

Medium Chill:

When they lash out- show no anger

When they are nice- don't revile in the [url=https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation]validation[/b][/url].

Be tempered in both cases. When they sense they can't manipulate your reaction, they tend to leave you alone.

[1]Tell them nothing, ask them nothing, and offer vacuous pleasantries. Medium Chill gives no appearance of withdrawal, so they can't accuse you of giving them the cold shoulder. You are there, you're just not present to them.

Medium Chill is effective because they no longer feel "safe" in their ability to generate chaos. So now you're back in control. It takes a bit of practice, as you have to learn to disconnect from them emotionally. But I've had some great success using this.

When I first came to these boards, I read about boundaries and Limited Contact.  They all made sense, and I felt as if I had been doing them already for a very long time.  The same friend who introduced me to these boards also introduced me to the concept of Medium Chill, though I must admit it took a little while and practice for to "get it" that Medium Chill is something more that taps into the psyche and become the Medium Chill Zen Master.     It's a bit late here and I'm more than a touch tired, so I might not be particularly eloquent as I type this tonight... .  

It's about more than just boundaries.

To put it in simpler terms, it's a two-parter with a specific attitude:

[2] (1) never share personal or private information on yourself;



(2) never get involved in their problems/drama;

(attitude) pleasant, modest, implacably calm-- never showing anger or compassionate involvement; paying attention but not too much attention-- while NEVER violating items one or two

Remember, a person can only use information they know about you to find your hot buttons and use it against you if they're highly manipulative (like so many BPDs are).  So don't let them know your hot buttons.

[3] Does your BPD pick fights with you when something is wrong with him/her?  Then by being a dull listener, they'll get bored and move on to someone they have a greater effect upon.  I swear, it really does work.

Are you unwittingly giving them the roadmap to figure out what you're sensitive about, so they can exploit those things later on to make YOU upset when THEY are upset but can't deal with those emotions on their own like a healthy adult?

Are you offering advice or help with only the best of intentions?  Well, if things go wrong, and they CAN'T blame themselves as part of BPD, who do you think they're going to blame?  Are you just putting yourself in the line of eventual fire without realizing it?

If they're angry and they get you angry, then they can successfully transfer the emotions they can't cope with onto you (projection).

[4] If they're angry and lashing out, they get relief from their inner turmoil by getting YOU upset.  So don't ever show yourself getting upset.  If they're upset and they can make you upset too, their goal has been achieved.  I swear, as it worked for the other poster, it worked for me too-- my BPD mother rather quickly would see who was the most active listener and turn her energies there.  I was no longer a means to an end; she no longer got relief from her inner pain by making me feel pain too.  

Of course, one of my physical boundaries was to not do a one-on-one meeting with her again in non-public places; this played very well into Medium Chill.  There's always someone more unenlightened and more of a sucker than you that they target instead.  It might be an unfortunate still-enmeshed family member; it might be the waiter.  But the point is, it will NOT BE YOU.  

Likewise, don't especially share their joys when they're on a high.  If they come to view you as a confidente/soulmate, who do you think they're going to turn to when their rage is highest and they need to foist it off onto someone else?

It's all about disengaging from playing into the messed up BPD dynamic.  We often talk about boundaries around here, like only speaking once a week on the phone, or not staying overnight in their houses, or a host of other physical actions of restraint... .  

... .   "Medium Chill" techniques, however, are boundaries for your soul.

~ Stargazer

[1]  When H lashes out and I show "no anger," he just gets worse. He may take something of mine and threaten to break it (and yes, he has broken things).  I've had to remove sentimental items from the home (mementos from my parents who've both have died within the last 24 months) because of his threats.  He did throw away my grandmother's pearls.  

I think that my H must have a more severe form of BPD because many of the suggested techniques have been attempted with worse results.  


[2]  I learned awhile ago not to share personal info with H because he will use that info as blackmail to get what he wants.  So, if I had told him something very private and painful, then he would "blab" it once he was angry with me.  

 I also can't telll him about various concerns that I have about our kids because when he gets mad at me, he tells the kids my concerns.  For example (this isn't true, but just to provide some context:) If I told H that I was concerned that son's GF was selfish, then the next time H would get mad at me, he would tell S & GF that I think she's selfish (again, that is just a made up example)

Worse, if H tells me something critical about his family, then later when he's mad at me, he'll tell them that I said these negative things (He does this to get them to choose sides and side with him).

[3]  If I ever dared to be a "dull listener" H would explode.  He already does that if he thinks that I've not giving him undivided full attention.  I'm not supposed to do ANYTHING while he's talking - not wash dishes, no fold laundry, no do anything.  And, if I don't make periodic supportive comments, he really flips out.  His claim is that I would never do that when listening to my friends.  He often uses my friends as his "go to" comparison.  If I don't show him the support/attention that he thinks that I give friends, then he goes ballistic.  The thing is that my friends aren't needy. My conversations with them are a fair "give and take."

[4] I agree that H lashes out in order to gain some kind of "relief".  But, when I do not show any signs of being upset, he just rages worse and worse. I have mentioned this in another thread - H can fight all by himself.

[GreenMango]

First thing I notice is #1 when you dont respond to his anger and it gets worse it's because its invalidating.   Enmeshment - him needing you to be as worked up as him is pretty common.   Is it healthy - nope.  Does it happen - yeah. Not saying you validate invalid stuff but medium chilling him creates more unrest.  At least this was my experience.

#2 unfortunately that's one of difficult parts of being with someone who has this type of problem.  This sucks - truly it does to have your words used against you, taken out of context or twisted.  Ways around it-realize the person is not capable of being a confidant - go to your best friend or therapist or someone else.  It's a trade off.  Keep going to a shoemaker expecting a watch and you'll keep getting a shoe.  This is a radical acceptance issue with someone who has an untreated mental illness.  Their functioning only goes so far.  Think about if you can live without in this area and ways to handle it productively.

#3 the baiting - I remember that - its a way to transfer feelings.  If you excuse yourself and start to practice healthier boundaries like well communicated time outs or validate his feelings before it roots into him grasping at the most dysfunctional coping methods -  the ones he knows work to alleviate the bad feelings - then he has to soothe himself.  You don't feed into it and you don't stay present for him to unleash and dump on you.  If there isn't someone to transfer it off to then he has to deal with it.  It's a amazing what people will learn when they have to. 

#4. Denying feelings isn't healthy for anyone.  Not much more to say about it than its what you do with them. It's learning to communicate effectively.  Denying them builds resentment.  It's getting comfortable and secure enough to be able to do so using a different method and being okay with the fact sometimes it won't go over well. 

Start small with those value based boundaries-hitting someone all at once changing the way things are done usually is too much.

What would be the most important value (respectful conversation, calm and peaceful household)?  Then figure out what you are going to do to foster that and how you are going to minimize that if confronted with the opposite.

[tuum est61]

Sadwife,

My uBPDw keeps track of all the minor and major wrongs I have ever done - or in fact may have done - or that I did before I even met her! Some are outright falsities. I called them "the list".

Until I learned about [url=https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation]validation[/b][/url] and boundaries, the list was ALWAYS the source of a fight and utter dysregulation by her - AND me.  The list still exists the same as always. I hardly see the list pulled out anymore.

Change was needed. And since she CAN'T change, I had to. This is what a lot of us here are trying so hard to get you to understand.  It has to be about what you do.

You really have to try to answer these questions we keep asking you. They aren't rhetorical. They are meant to be sincerely considered and answered by you.

The most recent question came from Greenmango.

What would be the most important value (respectful conversation, calm and peaceful household)?  

Answer that first right here and right now.

Then we will help you "figure out what you are going to do to foster that and how you are going to minimize that if confronted with the opposite."  

One small bite  at a time. This is a BIG elephant.  

[SadWifeofBPD]

What would be the most important value (respectful conversation, calm and peaceful household)? 

Am I being asked which of those 2 are the most important value?  Am I supposed to pick between respectful conversation and calm/peaceful household?   If I got one, wouldn't I get the other?

I would love to have respectful conversation because then the household would be peaceful.  I just don't know how to get that. 

H sees insults when none are intended. This is because of his FOO.  One time when H was driving and his father was sitting in the front passenger seat.   MIL and I were in the back seat.  FIL put his new camera on the dashboard.  I politely warned FIL that the camera might not be safe there.  FIL responded in a very rude fashion that the camera would be fine sitting there.  About a minute later, H made a sharp turn, the camera went flying across the dashboard, and broke into 3 pieces.  I probably chuckled a bit silently in my head, but the whole thing was kind of sad.  FIL had taken my suggestion as some kind of chip-on-his-shoulder insult, instead of seeing that I was just trying to protect his brand new camera that he had proudly just purchased.  The rest of the day, FIL was very rude to me - likely because he was shown to be very wrong and, probably, because he was upset that his new camera was now broken.

H responds the same way to helpful suggestions.  Yet, when I don't make a suggestion (and keep my mouth shut), and there's a bad result, H yells at me for not getting involved and helping him.  I can't win either way.  This came up in couples therapy and (surprise!) H actually admitted that I can't win either way.  If I help, then he's insulted.  If I don't help and there's a bad result (even if it's minor) then I'm blamed. 

My MIL was able to live with FIL (not happily, but more peacefully) because FIL didn't rage at her.  I do know that she wasn't allowed to "speak her mind" because she mentioned that at his funeral, but I don't know how she learned to keep her opinions to herself. At some point, she must have expressed her views, and was given some kind of message that that wasn't tolerable, so she avoided doing so in his presence after that.  But, according to H, his dad never yelled at H's mom.  When I pointed out this to H, he got angry.  But, the fact is that something had to have happened at some point in their marriage that MIL learned that only her H's opinions were allowed to be voiced in the household.  it may not have been by yelling, but it had to be in some way that would be harsh enough that MIL wouldn't ever cross that line. 

The reason the above is significant is because H insists that his mom "kept her mouth shut" simply because she "loved her husband and wanted him to be happy."  H says that as a "message" to me that I should do the same.  He'll say, "I just want a wife who's like my mom.  Someone who just wants to make her husband happy, even if that means sacrificing her own thoughts and wants." 

[SadWifeofBPD]

My uBPDw keeps track of all the minor and major wrongs I have ever done - or in fact may have done - or that I did before I even met her! Some are outright falsities. I called them "the list".

Until I learned about [url=https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation]validation[/b][/url] and boundaries, the list was ALWAYS the source of a fight and utter dysregulation by her - AND me.  The list still exists the same as always. I hardly see the list pulled out anymore.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I see a significant difference between how many female pwBPD act and how male pwBPD act.  What I see is that females generally aren't as scary.  They may blame, be irrational, etc, but because they don't often have the physical size/strength to put their power behind their words, they aren't nearly as intimidating. (unless the relationship is female vs female, and the pwBPD is the larger female).

I have a SIL who is BPD.  Yes, she's irrational and rages, but she's really a paper tiger.  Her H isn't scared one bit of her.  He's much larger/stronger than she is.  She can't grab/take his stuff out of his hands.  She rages, then goes to her room and pouts, and then she's fine a couple of days later. 

My H can and does grab things out of my hands because he knows he physically can.  I'm very short, small boned, and petite, and he's very tall, muscular, etc.  He's over a foot taller than I am.  He weighs a LOT more than I do.  He'll grab my purse, laptop, or whatever he wants right out of my hands and threatens to break them or throw them away unless I do what he wants (apologize for something that I'm not guilty of, admit something that isn't true, etc).   

My sister thinks he's acting out some painful scenarios from his childhood.  There may have been times that he couldn't get the apologies that he felt he deserved, so now when dealing with a tiny wife, and he perceives some kind of injustice, then by golly, he's going to get his apology. 

H is in private therapy but he's not forthcoming. He never mentions anything that he's done wrong. His sessions are spent telling his T that I don't do enough for him, and that I don't treat him as well as I treat friends or our kids.  He's told his T very little about his FOO.  What he has told his T about his FOO has been untrue. Another issue is that his T doesn't have the right background/training.  She's the type of T that doesn't believe in looking at FOO.  She's from that philosophy that only deals with the "here and now."  That kind of therapy is fine for healthy people dealing with normal problems, but it is ineffective with pwBPD.

Since I have a sister who is a T, I have tried various recommended techniques with H, but they have rarely seen any success. H is so needy that he perceives any change as an insult, withholding, or neglectful.

Plus, as my sister says, his alcoholism makes everything worse. His temper is worse, his memory is worse, his impulsivity is worse, his executive function is worse, etc.  It also severely affects his sense of time.  If I run into the store and am in there for 5 minutes, H will rage and say that I was in there for half an hour.  There have been times that I've been able to prove that his sense of timing is very off (because cell phone calls or texts will date-stamp). 

The most insightful thing that I've learned about BPD is that the emotional maturity has been arrested at around age 2.  Since learning that rather recently, it has explained so much to me. We all know what it's like to deal with a 2 year old.  Of course, a 2 year old isn't strong enough to over-power a parent, so the parent can still maintain some control  (I can remember carrying my 2 year old son out of the store when he was upset that I wouldn't buy him a desired toy.    )   

Right now, we are separated.  H is doing "back handed" things to upset me.  I had to go out of town for a few days, and when I returned I found out that he had my electricity turned off while I was gone.  So, over the last few days I've had to run around to get the power back on, empty two fridges full of ruined groceries.  He also came into my home while I was gone and broke some glass items onto the tile.  Since we're both on the title of this home, I can't legally keep him out.  It's really not fair because he leased an apt for himself and I certainly don't have access to that.

Even though I'm a couple of hours away from him, I'm 'on edge' worrying that he's going to "barge in" at any moment.  A couple of weeks ago, he did barge in while I was asleep in bed.  For a woman, especially a small woman, that is terrifying.  The only time I'm at peace is when I'm away from my home because I know he doesn't know where I am.  Soon I'll be going out of town again for 3 weeks.  While I'll have the peace of knowing that he can't barge in on me (he won't know where I am), I will still worry that he'll go into my home and cause more problems. 

[tuum est61]

Hi sadwife,

Use of physical intimidation and destruction of property is a part of many persons with BPD. My W could be described in similar physical terms as you've described yourself (although a brunette) While I'm not physically intimidated by her, she snatches things from me as you describe, and has destroyed property - mostly her own and none since Ive found better ways of handling her "2 year old" tantrums. She's taken a few swings at me, knocking out a front tooth  She was a corrections officer, trained to use various techniques to restrain men twice her size. As she's told me, and I don't doubt it, she can "take me down."

Again, I'm not intimidated by it all, but as a male,  I'm in the position that any physical altercation would land me in jail and/or with a restraining order.  So yeah, there are differences in the dynamics of a relationship when the pwBPD is male vs female, but it's really the same basic stuff - that needs the same basic responses.

This is still not about them, sadwife. It's about us and what we do to set boundaries.  Ive read all of the things you just expressed in previous posts. You've clearly established what your H is like.  We get it - because we've lived it. Now what?

While you've got a bit of a physical boundary living elsewhere, your H isn't respecting it. If you are being physically abused and intimidated, the police needs to be called. Connect with domestic violence support resource. Initiate legal action/ restraining order if you or your properly is at risk. Build and write down a safety plan.  :)o those things if you haven't. They are boundaries that are in your control. I'm not saying they are easy, but they are in your control.

It all comes back to looking at your values first - and you've given us the slip once again. You are answering questions with questions. Starting with values, what is the value or values you hold relative to the place you call home?  Answer greenmango's question and we can work from there.

[SadWifeofBPD]

Answer greenmango's question and we can work from there.

I asked for clarification regarding that question and wasn't given one.

I did say that I want respectful conversation and that will likely help have a calm household.

I have requested a restraining order.  Both my son and I filed police reports over 3 weeks ago.  We have followed up with phone calls.  My son also requested a restraining order because of a threatening message H left on his phone.  Things seem to move very slowly in the county that I live. Until there are orders of protection, H can do whatever the heck he wants - including barging in unannounced at all hours.  

[GreenMango]

Sadwife I was giving examples didn't mean you only have two choices.  Each person will have different set of values. 

It sounds like safety maybe be the most important to you.

As far as this you mentioned him coming into the house when you aren't home.  It's good to talk to an attorney about these things and a counselor for dv.  Have you had a chance to do that?  It might be a good thing to ask about changing the locks.

[SadWifeofBPD]

It might be a good thing to ask about changing the locks.

Until the legal process occurs, I'm not permitted to change the locks.  In my state, as well as many other states, if you change the locks on property that you both own, the "locked out" spouse can legally break a window to gain access.  This is until he's a protective order is in place.

I find this an be an unfair law.  After all, I think that once a spouse has moved out, and has moved in elsewhere, he shouldn't be allowed free access to where I'm living. 

[elessar]

Several times I've told my H that he expects/demands that I be perfect and that I'm not allowed to have any flaws.  

Yup. agree with you. 20 years is a long time. I liked that quote because I always told my ex - you do not allow me to be human.

pleading with her never worked. still blames me about things i said or did which have actually done her good over the long run.

And as you said, pointing out their mistakes to them is like WWIII

[SadWifeofBPD]

First thing I notice is #1 when you dont respond to his anger and it gets worse it's because its invalidating.   Enmeshment - him needing you to be as worked up as him is pretty common.   Is it healthy - nope.  :)oes it happen - yeah. Not saying you validate invalid stuff but medium chilling him creates more unrest.  At least this was my experience.

I said that when H lashes out and I show no anger, he gets worse.  Are you suggesting that I'm supposed to show anger in order to validate?  I thought I was supposed to "keep my cool" and be the adult and respond with calm, controlled words.  

IMO, "medium chilling" is suggesting that I'm supposed to seem rather disinterested in the rant. I can see that a co-worker, roomie, etc could get away with doing that, but that wouldn't work for me.  H expects me to look like I am highly interested in what he's saying.

#2 unfortunately that's one of difficult parts of being with someone who has this type of problem.  This sucks - truly it does to have your words used against you, taken out of context or twisted.  

Very true. I can't trust H with information because he'll use it as blackmail to get what he wants or to lash out. And, he does twist things and take things out of context.

Ways around it-realize the person is not capable of being a confidant - go to your best friend or therapist or someone else.  It's a trade off.  Keep going to a shoemaker expecting a watch and you'll keep getting a shoe.  This is a radical acceptance issue with someone who has an untreated mental illness.  Their functioning only goes so far.  Think about if you can live without in this area and ways to handle it productively.

Oh I agree.  After being burned I've learned that he can't be trusted with secrets or sensitive info.  I accept that.  

#3 the baiting - I remember that - its a way to transfer feelings.  If you excuse yourself and start to practice healthier boundaries like well communicated time outs or validate his feelings before it roots into him grasping at the most dysfunctional coping methods -  the ones he knows work to alleviate the bad feelings - then he has to soothe himself.  You don't feed into it and you don't stay present for him to unleash and dump on you.  If there isn't someone to transfer it off to then he has to deal with it.  It's a amazing what people will learn when they have to.  

Yes, when I can excuse myself, I do.  However, I've had this happen on road trips where I can't "get away."  I certainly can't appear to be a "dull listener" because he flips out when that happens.  IF we're in the car and he's talking, he gets annoyed if I even look out the window while he's talking.  He wants all focus to be on him.  As I mentioned in another thread, if we're at home and he's talking/ranting/whatever, he gets upset if I do anything while he's talking. I can't help but feel that he felt ignored by his FOO, so I get the "payback."  

When his father was seriously ill and H was trying to advise his family as to what specialists could help his dad, his siblings completely ignored his suggestions.  His dad may have died prematurely because of inadequate healthcare.  H still hasn't recovered from that and it's been several years.  :)uring that time and since, I have gotten the brunt from that.  By golly, in his mind, no one is going to ignore his words again.  I have told him that he has so much anger at his siblings over that, and he's did rage at two of them on two separate occasions, but to him it's still a very fresh/open wound because they didn't validate his feelings, nor would they admit that their dad hadn't seen the type of specialist that he needed to see (that H had recommended.)

#4. Denying feelings isn't healthy for anyone.  Not much more to say about it than its what you do with them. It's learning to communicate effectively.  :)enying them builds resentment.  It's getting comfortable and secure enough to be able to do so using a different method and being okay with the fact sometimes it won't go over well.  

I agree.  At one point, I did think that I was supposed to treat his rages like a 2 year old's tantrums... .   ignore them and they'll stop resorting to those actions.  But, that doesn't seem to work.  Extinction doesn't happen.

Start small with those value based boundaries-hitting someone all at once changing the way things are done usually is too much.

Oh I agree.  Too much change would be too obvious and jolting.  

Several times I've told my H that he expects/demands that I be perfect and that I'm not allowed to have any flaws.  

Yup. agree with you. 20 years is a long time.

I liked that quote because I always told my ex - you do not allow me to be human.

pleading with her never worked. still blames me about things i said or did which have actually done her good over the long run.

And as you said, pointing out their mistakes to them is like WWIII

Yes. I once asked H to name 5 rather harmless faults am I allowed to have (I don't mean serious flaws like cheating or bouncing checks).   H was rendered speechless because he couldn't name one flaw that I'm allowed to have.  I asked him this after he complained (again) that I didn't park the car perfectly straight into the garage.  My way of parking doesn't affect him at all. He just "doesn't like" that the car is sitting at a slight angle.  My car is nowhere near his.  My parking doesn't affect walking around the car or anything.  It's a large garage and the way I park makes it easier to back out onto our curvy driveway.