Red Flags I ignored? Why?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My BPDw was allways wanting to help and very active, untill she decided to leave me. When I look back I think that's about half or 3/4 a year ago.

But honoustly: I just had to ask and she would do it. Not in the way I wanted it or on the time I wanted it, but she did.

Never have felt that she was lazy or unwilling to do things.

[VeryFree]

My BPDw was allways wanting to help and very active, untill she decided to leave me. When I look back I think that's about half or 3/4 a year ago.

But honoustly: I just had to ask and she would do it. Not in the way I wanted it or on the time I wanted it, but she did.

Never have felt that she was lazy or unwilling to do things.

[SadWifeofBPD]

What are some areas that you may still be inclined to be "helpful?"

To who? My H?  I'm not doing one thing for him.  or do you mean something else.

[SadWifeofBPD]

I think that many of us are so affected by our FOO's that we don't see/know about red flags.  My FOO was very normal.  Intact family, no addictions, no disorders, stable income, etc.

So, when H and I got married, we immediately began looking for a home to purchase.  It NEVER dawned on me to ask/require that H commit to doing X amount of work around the house if we purchased a home.  Because of how my FOO operated, I just ASSUMED that spouses would be so excited and proud of their new home purchase that they would WANT to spend at least one afternoon each weekend working around the house (including outside).    Our first home was brand new.  No yard had been put in.  There was a LOT to do.  Yet, after we moved in, H made it very clear that his golf/gym schedule would remain "as is".  That meant that he had NO intention of doing anything for the house.  His comment was, "You knew that I golf and go to the gym several times a week before we got married. That's not going to change."

I was so annoyed at myself for not having the foresight to get some kind of commitment from H before we bought that home. Once purchased, I had no leverage at all. Weekends would come and off he'd go to the golf course or gym.  My parents and I were the ones who put the yard in, put up shelves and stuff in the home, etc.

I knew nothing about BPD/NPD at that time.  If I had, I would have recognized H's "entitlement" attitude.  He felt that he deserved all that "free time" and it didn't bother him a bit that others were carrying the home chores burden.  We both worked at the same place, so we both were working the same hours, so it's not like he could argue that he was working more outside the home... .   although he did try to once argue that he "earned more."   I pointed out that I only have 24 hrs per day, just like him.

[SadWifeofBPD]

The reason I am having a sad wistful chuckle is that I somehow found myself in the same odd situation having dinner at friends places or having people over.   I found myself doing absolutely everything and not daring to ask for any help whatsoever.  I was amazed at the way other wives and partners readily asked their partners for help and got it with no fuss whatsoever.   How it really should be!

But I was never like this before this 3 year relationship.  I was entranced, under a spell.

In my 18 year marriage to the father of my sons,  although my H was emotionally distant we shared alll the chores and child rearing duties and I aleays felt respected.  I was actually a bit of a feminist back in the 80's!

I could ask my H to do almost anything and vice versa.  We just got along and sorted things out as they needed to be done. No fuss.

Thank you for your kind and supportive words.  

Yes!   I can remember being at a friend's home for dinner, and she was trying to get everything together.  She could "bark" (I don't mean rudely) requests at her H and he'd do them.  I also remember being shocked when after dinner she was returning some food to the fridge and she (not rudely) commented to her H that he hadn't put something back correctly so she had to rearrange stuff to fit the food.  I remember being shocked because I know that if I had ever dared to criticize H for where he put something, there would have been "hell to pay."

  It wasn't always like that.  Early on, I could "correct" H.  Many times he would argue with me, but since I'm good with details and have a fabulous memory, I was nearly always right.  My sister, a T, says that H and I have a "marble game" going on.  H perceived that I had more "marbles" than he had.  H perceived that every time I was right, he had to give me a marble.  Since he thought I had too many marbles already, he began fighting tooth and nail to keep his few marbles.  So, as time went on, and I'd be right about more and more things, H began using harsher tactics to prevent me from winning another "marble".  I can remember one time when H stopped the car on railroad tracks at a stoplight (cars stopped in front of us, and cars behind us).  I told him that that is illegal and dangerous because then the car becomes trapped if a train comes.  H didn't believe me and harshly verbally attacked me.  We were on our way to my parents' home.  The subject came up at my parents home and my dad firmly told H that it is illegal to stop on RR tracks and also very dangerous.  H accepted those words from my dad (who H respected).

Anytime I had to ask my H to do something, he expected/demanded that the request be peppered with soothing statements like, "honey, I'm really busy, and I know that you're busy too, but I really need help with XXX.  When you think that you might have a minute, can you please do XXX?  I understand that you might not have time, and that's ok."   OMG... .   couples shouldn't have to talk like that on a daily basis.  There should be a developed rhythm and it should be totally ok for any spouse to (nicely) just say, "hey, can you move the wash to the dryer?"  without paragraphs of words surrounding the request.  

[SadWifeofBPD]

I talked to my sister today and she brought up an incident that I had forgotten about but was a red flag.

BPDH has difficulty figuring out priorities.  He's unable to properly designate that an important task needs to be given top priority (done first), while a lesser important task needs to be done later.  In his mind all tasks have the same priority, so just do them in the order that you "like".

For instance, if we were going to have company for dinner and the front yard desperately needs some weeding, but a bedroom closet also needs cleaning out, H wasn't able to grasp that the weeding is more important at that moment since the guests will see that, and they won't be seeing that some old clothes in a closet need to be gotten rid of. 

At the time that this flaw or trait appeared, I thought it was weird, but didn't realize how that trait would rear its ugly head over and over again.  I didn't realize that he may not be able to distinquish the difference between what is more important and what can be done later. 

[briefcase]

  It wasn't always like that.  Early on, I could "correct" H.  Many times he would argue with me, but since I'm good with details and have a fabulous memory, I was nearly always right.  My sister, a T, says that H and I have a "marble game" going on.  H perceived that I had more "marbles" than he had.  H perceived that every time I was right, he had to give me a marble.  Since he thought I had too many marbles already, he began fighting tooth and nail to keep his few marbles.  So, as time went on, and I'd be right about more and more things, H began using harsher tactics to prevent me from winning another "marble".  I can remember one time when H stopped the car on railroad tracks at a stoplight (cars stopped in front of us, and cars behind us).  I told him that that is illegal and dangerous because then the car becomes trapped if a train comes.  H didn't believe me and harshly verbally attacked me.  We were on our way to my parents' home.  The subject came up at my parents home and my dad firmly told H that it is illegal to stop on RR tracks and also very dangerous.  H accepted those words from my dad (who H respected).

I see a lot more gray area in this than a true "red flag."  Its a dynamic that takes two. 

Your sister is right, you are both playing this game of marbles.  A game of marbles requires two players.  If one of them decides to not play anymore, the game ends - even if the other person still wants to play. 

It's the same with a relationship dynamic. If one person in the relationship changes their own behavior - the dynamic (the interactions between the two people), by definition, will also change. It's important to not confuse changing the dynamics of the relationship with changing the other person - you can't change the other person you can only change your own behaviors and, as a consequence, the dynamics/interactions.

So you have some choices:

1.   Stay, and keep playing marbles (continue the 30 year pattern)

2.   Stay, and stop playing marbles  (change your end of the dynamic)

3.   Leave, and take your marbles and go home (divorce and move on)

Which way are you leaning?

[SadWifeofBPD]

Your sister is right, you are both playing this game of marbles

Sorry, but that's not what my sister is saying.  She does not believe that we're both playing this game.  She thinks we're being affected by the dynamic.  Actually, everyone that my H disagrees with is affected by this dynamic.

She believes that my H, when completely unprovoked  (and she's been around him a LOT), flips out and is playing the marble game.

For instance, my sister was involved in this incident:  Sister and I were having a discussion (H was NOT part of the convo, but he was there.).   She and I were talking about our favorite Cary Grant movies.  She was trying to remember who the leading lady was in a particular one.  I said it was XXXXXX.   H interrupted our convo, and said that I was wrong and that the actress was YYYYY.  Sister had her iPhone with her and looked the movie up and announced that it was XXXX.  H flipped out because in his BPD-mind, he had to give me a marble (that I don't want or give a flip about.)

I guess you think that BPDs should be able to say whatever the heck they want and shouldn't ever suffer the indignity of being told the right answer... .   otherwise we're all playing a game.

Anyway, no, my sister doesn't think I'm playing the game.  She does not think I'm a willing player (or anyone is for that matter except H).  And, since she's an expert, I trust her judgment.

[Louise7777]

Hey SadWife!

Big fan of Cary Grant here. "Insanity runs in my family, it practically gallops" (from "Arsenic and olde lace" movie). ;-)

I relate to your story of creating a scene when they are confornted with their mistakes. Mistake in a ridiculous issue, nothing important, by the way. For me its exahusting to walk on eggshells all the time, being carefull cause anything may trigger them... .   Even if you are extra-careful, no guarantee all will go smooth. I still struggle with the idea of "not triggering them", of learning how to deal with them. Whats the point anyway? Is that a relationship? Where one does/ says whatever and the other is all cautious? 

[SadWifeofBPD]

Hey SadWife!

Big fan of Cary Grant here. "Insanity runs in my family, it practically gallops" (from "Arsenic and olde lace" movie). ;-)

I relate to your story of creating a scene when they are confornted with their mistakes. Mistake in a ridiculous issue, nothing important, by the way. For me its exahusting to walk on eggshells all the time, being carefull cause anything may trigger them... .   Even if you are extra-careful, no guarantee all will go smooth. I still struggle with the idea of "not triggering them", of learning how to deal with them. Whats the point anyway? Is that a relationship? Where one does/ says whatever and the other is all cautious? 

I can see that you understand. 

H gets very upset upon learning of his errors.  I don't just mean if a "live person" tells him, but if he finds out thru another source.

For instance, if we sit down to watch a football game, and before the game starts, H announces that his team will win by X points and no one contradicts him (and maybe even says, "I hope so.", but then his team loses (and his prediction was wrong), he becomes VERY upset and I'm usually the target of his anger.  If I'm not there, then it's someone else.

My sister says that "being right" is at H's inner core.  It's his being.  She says it's running in his blood (figuratively).  He was always told that he was the "smartest person in the room" when he was growing up.  It was his "label" and the only thing that he was really proud of.  So, when he sets himself up and then is wrong, it's like his whole foundation crumbles. 

So, no one is "playing" with him.  He does this all to himself, virtually all by himself. 

[maryy16]

Sadwife, my H too used to have a HUGE problem if his team lost.  It wasn't even about him being right or wrong... . I guess he felt personally attacked or something.

For instance, one year his team lost the SuperBowl and he was mad for days... .   at me!  Now, how could I have possibly had anything to do with that!

[SadWifeofBPD]

Sadwife, my H too used to have a HUGE problem if his team lost.  It wasn't even about him being right or wrong... . I guess he felt personally attacked or something.

For instance, one year his team lost the SuperBowl and he was mad for days... .   at me!  Now, how could I have possibly had anything to do with that!

Yes, they do take these things personally as if a team losing or an election candidate losing is a personal criticism.

My sis says it's because of their immaturity, they've blurred the lines and kind of become "attached" to their teams/candidates/whatever, so they feel personally wronged/attacked if their team/candidate/etc doesn't win.

[tuum est61]

So, no one is "playing" with him.  He does this all to himself, virtually all by himself.  

Hi Sadwife,

In my past days of analysis of my W's BPD behaviours, this rephrase of a well known philosophical question helped me to come to terms with my role in the dynamic - noting the word dynamic - in its use as a noun - is by definition about the interaction between "forces."

When a pwBPD rages in the forest, and no "non" is around to hear them, are they still a pwBPD?.  

Arguably, no, they aren't - since no one is affected.

But you are affected by his BPD, and so are your sons.  The interesting thing about BPD as a disease is its profound impacts on others - and whether others think they are playing or not, they are "in the game." - even if it's as a trapped spectator trying to get off the field.  

There's only so much to be gained by analysing the game reels of the opponent - your primary purpose needs to be to use what you know about BPD to add to your own play book.

[SadWifeofBPD]

When a pwBPD rages in the forest, and no "non" is around to hear them, are they still a pwBPD?.  

Arguably, no, they aren't - since no one is affected.

I would argue that "yes they are still a pwBPD" because THEY are still affected by their illness.  They're still subject to impulsive decisions that can endanger them, they're still more prone to be suicidal, etc.

You see, H has "been in the forest" and he did endanger himself.  He went into the woods to find our lost cat.  While in there, he did make some irrational decisions, impulsive decisions, and almost got himself killed falling down a cliff.  so, yes, they can be a pwBPD when they're all by themselves. 

[SadWifeofBPD]

I might argue that a pwBPD that is gagged, put in a straightjacket, and is heavily drugged might be a person that no longer has BPD. 

But you are affected by his BPD, and so are your sons.  The interesting thing about BPD as a disease is its profound impacts on others - and whether others think they are playing or not, they are "in the game." - even if it's as a trapped spectator trying to get off the field.  

It's rather insulting to imply that a trapped person somehow is "playing the game."  That would suggest that a kidnapped hostage also is "playing the game."  That's a slippery slope that you're on and it is blaming the victim.

There's only so much to be gained by analysing the game reels of the opponent - your primary purpose needs to be to use what you know about BPD to add to your own play book.

My primary goal is to learn more about my H's "brand" of BPD to add to my playbook.  There have been recommended techniques and suggested "boundaries" that may work well for some types of pwBPD, but they aren't working wth my H. 

the last few weeks being away from him have been wonderful in so many ways.  No "walking on eggshells", no worrying that some "outside" force will upset him and then he'll take it on me (something with his job, traffic, etc).  No worrying that a mistake that he's made (losing something, breaking something, etc) is going to cause me to be the brunt of his anger.   

(Honestly, I do wonder what he's now doing with his anger.  He loses things CONSTANTLY.  and, he breaks things often (because he's not gentle or careful), and usually, I'm the target of his anger.  But, since I'm away from him, he must be resorting to something else (probably drinking more. ) 

As much as I'd really want to be permanently away from him, we really can't afford this.  I'm not confident that there are any "techniques" that would work with him.  He really never wants to be defused.  He WANTS to be angry. 

[SadWifeofBPD]

I don't know if this is a BPD thing or not, but H showed a complete lacking of social skills when I met him.  It was clear (to me) that he lived in a world without noticing the protocol around him. 

[tuum est61]

I don't know if this is a BPD thing or not, but H showed a complete lacking of social skills when I met him.  It was clear (to me) that he lived in a world without noticing the protocol around him.  

I think I've read that you took it on yourself to "correct" or make up for this deficiency.  This is the part we bring to the situation.

Once you've realized you ignored the "red flags", and your efforts to "fix" the problems have failed, the challenge becomes what, if anything, can be done about it now - if you are trying to maintain a relationship with you pwBPD.

It's where I am at, and I don't have any answers.  I love my W more than anything but some the self destructive and relationship destroying behaviors that were present at the beginning still remain. 

[SadWifeofBPD]

I don't know if this is a BPD thing or not, but H showed a complete lacking of social skills when I met him.  It was clear (to me) that he lived in a world without noticing the protocol around him.  

I think I've read that you took it on yourself to "correct" or make up for this deficiency.  This is the part we bring to the situation.

Once you've realized you ignored the "red flags", and your efforts to "fix" the problems have failed, the challenge becomes what, if anything, can be done about it now - if you are trying to maintain a relationship with you pwBPD.

It's where I am at, and I don't have any answers.  I love my W more than anything but some the self destructive and relationship destroying behaviors that were present at the beginning still remain. 

Right!

The problem was that while I certainly noticed the lack of social skills, I thought it was just a situation of "nerdy engineer who hadn't dated a whole lot".  H was VERY willing to learn/correct these short-comings.  If he had stubbornly clung to his "poor social skills ways" I would have been more clued-in that I was dealing with something more extreme.


A related red flag that I should have realized was more serious is the lack of "walking around smarts."   His solutions to many problems were often DUMB and short-sighted.   

  I had often heard my dad joke about highly educated people being "book smart" but lacking "common sense," so I thought that was the case with H. 

I realize now that with a pwBPD, their "solution" to many problems is whatever first comes into their heads and whatever is easiest for them.  If putting Duct Tape on the broken item works (at least for a day or two) then that's fine with them.  If going out and buying another item is easier than checking to see if you're using the appliance correctly, then that's fine with them.   (I can't tell you how many times H would definitively declare that something was BROKEN only to find out that it wasn't plugged in, or he hadn't turned it on, or he didn't have something set correctly.  He'd loudly declare it to be broken and would get annoyed if I looked at the item to see what's wrong.  He'd say, "don't look at it.  I KNOW it's broken."  And then I'd quietly go plug it in or do some super simple "fix".   

Now, you may say that I should have let him think it's broken but this would happen 2-5 times per week.  We couldn't afford to be constantly buying new stuff because H hadn't turned something on or plugged it in.

[danley]

I realize now that with a pwBPD, their "solution" to many problems is whatever first comes into their heads and whatever is easiest for them. 

Yes. I agree with this wholeheartedly about my ex. It is a red flag that I dismissed because most of the problems were regarding himself minus me. But when he left, I was part of his endless perceived problems and his solution was to take the easiest road. Accepting responsibility for himself was too hard for him. Plus it would mean that he had to actually admit to people he made mistakes. Anything to keep his perfect healthy facade alive. So Yes, big red flag!

Another red flag was that his ex was always at fault which I believe now isn't completely True.

Another red flag was when he said we shouldn't have gotten so emotionally attached. Wth does that mean? Isn't that what happens when you reach a point of comfort to be vulnerable and honest with someone? I didn't get how he suddenly felt like saying those words after we opened up to each other and knew every secret and aspect of each other.

So sad and bizarre... .

I'm still kinda speechless on that last red flag that came too late... . a few days before he broke up with me.

[SadWifeofBPD]

Another red flag was that his ex was always at fault which I believe now isn't completely True.

Yes, I bet this happens often with ex's of pwBPD or pwNPD.   A friend of mine was married to a pwNPD and he used to say all these awful thing about his First Wife.  My friend didn't meet the First Wife until a few years after she (my friend) divorced her H.  Once my friend divorced her H over his frequent infidelities, she met the First Wife.  My friend learned that the First Wife had divorced the guy over multiple infidelities as well.  Turns out, the First Wife was a nice lady and the two became friends... . and still are today... . 20 years after my friend divorced her H.  The exH now has 5 divorces  and he's likely blaming each divorce on each wife.

[danley]

Yes. I'm sure it happens a lot.

I'm seeing it unravel before my own eyes except now I'M the bad ex who's at fault. My ex had revealed that he told his new interest about us. And just THINKING about how he painted his ex before ME, makes me cringe at what he might be telling this new interest. I'm far from perfect but even my EX couldn't answer me when I asked what I did wrong or a reason for him painting me black. BUT I'm sure this new outside influence will react to whatever he chooses to portray me as.

I don't think his ex wife was an angel because several people have said that she wasn't the most pleasant person... . the exact word from everyone was that she was a B@#$%. But regardless,  I can still see how my ex could have contributed to their divorce. It takes two to make it work, right?

[SadWifeofBPD]

Yes. I'm sure it happens a lot.

I'm seeing it unravel before my own eyes except now I'M the bad ex who's at fault. My ex had revealed that he told his new interest about us. And just THINKING about how he painted his ex before ME, makes me cringe at what he might be telling this new interest. I'm far from perfect but even my EX couldn't answer me when I asked what I did wrong or a reason for him painting me black. BUT I'm sure this new outside influence will react to whatever he chooses to portray me as.

I don't think his ex wife was an angel because several people have said that she wasn't the most pleasant person... . the exact word from everyone was that she was a B@#$%. But regardless,  I can still see how my ex could have contributed to their divorce. It takes two to make it work, right?

I cringe a lot at the thought of what BPDH is saying about me to people who don't know me.  They probably do think that I'm Attila the Hun.  My H tells them that I've been unfaithful (100% not true), and he tells then other half-truths or stories that might have a grain of truth to them but without context or the full truth, it will seem like I'm horrible. 

In your case, I would still be hesitant to really believe the people who say that the ex-wife was a B@#$%.  We have no idea if any bhityness was the result of outrageous behavior from her spouse.

I remember when my sister-in-law's NPDH abandoned her when she was 8 months pregnant with their second child.  He left for another woman.  One of my SIL's siblings actually said, "well, you know that she can be very bhity to him."   Well, I'm sure she was.  Her H was constantly lying to her about his whereabouts, lying to her about spending money (on other women!), lying about needing to work so he wouldn't have to do any childcare, was no help to her during her pregnancies, etc.  That would drive many of us to be rather "bhity". 

[danley]

So very true.

WHY was she bhity? Very well could have been years of him possibly driving her insane with the type of behavior he's shown me in the last few months.

Just never know. He can go telling his half truths about me to this new person but I'm not worried about him painting me black to our mutual friends at all. And he very well KNOWS this. He has kept our relationship from just about everyone. So the smear campaign starts and ends in with this new person as well as himself as far as I'm concerned.