Relationships with siblings in the wake of uBPD/NPDm

[Depression = 72% of members]

Lately I've been thinking about the true state of my relationships with my two older brothers. One is the golden child (he never likes to talk about the fact that there is something wrong with mom) and the other is the No-Good/Black Sheep child (he flipped out on my mother a final time three years ago and they no longer talk). I'm the youngest and sometimes she likes me, sometimes I'm a horrible daughter (you know how it is!) My enDad is in the picture, but he, like most enDads, only supports uBPDm and can often be cruel in his desperation to promote her side of the argument.

I've realized over the past year or so that I feel like I am just pretending to have a real relationship with my brothers. They have always been kind of poor communicators, and we all live in different states. As the youngest I've often been the one traveling from state to state to see every family member (my husband and I don't have kids yet, but my brothers do).

Lately I've been feeling resentful because I feel like if I didn't initiate conversations (with the help of my sisters-in-law), my brothers would never see me. My mother lobbied very hard for me to stop talking to my oldest brother when they had their final fight (to the point that she threw a fit when I visited him - this has happened more than once).

It's not that I think my brothers don't want to see me... . it's that they are so passive about the three of us spending any time together that I wonder if they even care. Several months ago I sent a message on Facebook to both of them and my sisters-in-law asking if we could think about renting a house together for a week somewhere this summer.

I sent the message very early on (February) with no expectation of immediate response. But then Memorial Day came along and I realized that while all 4 of them had read it, nobody had bothered to respond. I know they're busy with my nieces and nephews (and my sisters-in-law have their own families to juggle as well), but they had all seen the message and they've all been on Facebook to post other things. They couldn't take one minute to write a two-sentence response about whether or not they want to try to get together this summer?

My husband thinks I should stick up for myself more (I've been doing this with friends over the past couple of years, and it's resulted in the end of a couple of long-term friendships as I've realized I was enabling/afraid to anger/etc. people who weren't actually being all that nice to me).

My relationship with my parents is tenuous. We see them occasionally, but my mother senses my enforcement of boundaries and it has made her more angry. I keep the visits short. There is part of me that is tempted to give up on my whole family altogether, because I don't feel like my husband and I are much of a priority to them.

All this is a very long-winded way of saying, have you found that your adult sibling relationships are distant because of your upbringing? If not, are there any tips you have about how you've managed to stay close or what you've done to try to make your sibling relationships healthy?

[skinny13]

Lately I've been thinking about the true state of my relationships with my two older brothers. One is the golden child (he never likes to talk about the fact that there is something wrong with mom) and the other is the No-Good/Black Sheep child (he flipped out on my mother a final time three years ago and they no longer talk). I'm the youngest and sometimes she likes me, sometimes I'm a horrible daughter (you know how it is!) My enDad is in the picture, but he, like most enDads, only supports uBPDm and can often be cruel in his desperation to promote her side of the argument.

I've realized over the past year or so that I feel like I am just pretending to have a real relationship with my brothers. They have always been kind of poor communicators, and we all live in different states. As the youngest I've often been the one traveling from state to state to see every family member (my husband and I don't have kids yet, but my brothers do).

Lately I've been feeling resentful because I feel like if I didn't initiate conversations (with the help of my sisters-in-law), my brothers would never see me. My mother lobbied very hard for me to stop talking to my oldest brother when they had their final fight (to the point that she threw a fit when I visited him - this has happened more than once).

It's not that I think my brothers don't want to see me... . it's that they are so passive about the three of us spending any time together that I wonder if they even care. Several months ago I sent a message on Facebook to both of them and my sisters-in-law asking if we could think about renting a house together for a week somewhere this summer.

I sent the message very early on (February) with no expectation of immediate response. But then Memorial Day came along and I realized that while all 4 of them had read it, nobody had bothered to respond. I know they're busy with my nieces and nephews (and my sisters-in-law have their own families to juggle as well), but they had all seen the message and they've all been on Facebook to post other things. They couldn't take one minute to write a two-sentence response about whether or not they want to try to get together this summer?

My husband thinks I should stick up for myself more (I've been doing this with friends over the past couple of years, and it's resulted in the end of a couple of long-term friendships as I've realized I was enabling/afraid to anger/etc. people who weren't actually being all that nice to me).

My relationship with my parents is tenuous. We see them occasionally, but my mother senses my enforcement of boundaries and it has made her more angry. I keep the visits short. There is part of me that is tempted to give up on my whole family altogether, because I don't feel like my husband and I are much of a priority to them.

All this is a very long-winded way of saying, have you found that your adult sibling relationships are distant because of your upbringing? If not, are there any tips you have about how you've managed to stay close or what you've done to try to make your sibling relationships healthy?

[nomom4me]

Hi Skinny.  Your situation sounds familiar! I'm also the one who travels to see family, I had a couple visits when I was living in a touristy city but I honestly feel my family was sightseeing more than visiting. If I tried to plan something as a group with my siblings that didn't not include my mother, they would feel too much guilt and obligation to my mom to attend an event that does not include her.  You made an effort, maybe let them make the next move.

It's been very difficult for me for me to see my siblings since making limited contact boundaries with my mom, my mom has sent messages through siblings and soured relationships. Facebook can further complicate already complicated family situations, imho - it's a work tool for me and I try to limit family contact on facebook, the family members who were added as "friends" see limited updates. I try to keep up with family by phone, I get along OK with my brothers but it's very superficial, I don't expect things to get deeper.

[doubleAries]

yeah--pretty par for the course really. I have 3 brothers--1 older and 2 younger. My mom was/is especially sadistic, so my older brother only vaguely resembled the "golden child". I was the no-good/black sheep child (my mom was pretty threatened by any other females). I have had no contact with my mom for 22 years, and my oldest and youngest brothers have very limited contact with her. Interestingly, her most ignored child (the brother just younger than me) is now--as an adult--the golden child! He talks to her for hours and hours every week. He is also diagnosed ASPD. I don't have hardly any contact with him at all, even though he lives only about 60 miles from me. My youngest brother lives about 15 miles from me, and I usually only see him accidentally, like in the grocery store every couple of years or so. My oldest brother lives in another state, but we email and talk on the phone quite a bit.

I've tried to initiate family get togethers, and they always fall flat. I tried hard for a long time to make us be a close family, but at one point, I finally said "hey, y'all need to help make this happen too if this is what you want. If it isn't what you want, fine--let's go about our lives". The latter is what came to pass.

Mostly it doesn't seem all that weird to me, but sometimes there are some awkward moments. I had to fill out a form recently that asked "who do we contact in an emergency?" and I was stumped. Had no one to put on there.

We just seem to have drifted into other directions that don't include each other very much. Not sure why or what to do about it.

[GeekyGirl]

What you described is a pretty common dynamic... . the golden child wants to please the parents and can't see anything is wrong, the all-bad child is considered the black sheep of the family, and if there are more than two kids, one might go back and forth between all-good and all-bad. It's really hard for everyone to see eye-to-eye.

My brother and I have a superficial relationship, much like you described. We don't talk much and don't see each other more than a few times a year (yet we live about 15 miles apart). It's not that we don't like each other--it's just that having a relationship isn't really a priority for either of us. My T has said that our relationship going forward likely will be superficial, as my brother is usually the golden child and I'm usually the all-bad child. We just see things very differently. When my mother rages and blames me, my brother must keep his distance, because being around me (in her eyes) is fraternizing with the enemy.

Sometimes I wish we could be closer. We invite my brother and his wife to events and dinners occasionally, and they do reciprocate, but it's not very often. When we do get together, we don't discuss our parents. Fortunately, my niece is about the same age as my son, so the kids can play and we have other things to talk about.

I can understand why this is painful for you. It really doesn't take more than a minute to write a response to a Facebook message. You didn't do anything wrong though. This is apparently VERY common. What do you think you should do when it comes to your brothers? Do you want a relationship (even a superficial one) with them?

[skinny13]

If I tried to plan something as a group with my siblings that didn't not include my mother, they would feel too much guilt and obligation to my mom to attend an event that does not include her... . [text cut]

It's been very difficult for me for me to see my siblings since making limited contact boundaries with my mom, my mom has sent messages through siblings and soured relationships.

nomom4me, I'm sorry that you've had to deal with your siblings making contact with your mom, and I think you make a good point that the guilt/obligation weighs on the adult children who decide to stay in contact. I think this is definitely part of the reason why my golden child brother has been hesitant to respond - he probably doesn't want to make any plans that include the 'black sheep' because he's afraid it will get him 'in trouble' with our mother.

I've tried to initiate family get togethers, and they always fall flat. I tried hard for a long time to make us be a close family, but at one point, I finally said "hey, y'all need to help make this happen too if this is what you want. If it isn't what you want, fine--let's go about our lives". The latter is what came to pass.

Mostly it doesn't seem all that weird to me, but sometimes there are some awkward moments. I had to fill out a form recently that asked "who do we contact in an emergency?" and I was stumped. Had no one to put on there.

doubleAries, I'm sorry to hear you've had the experience of trying to initiate family gatherings and having them fall flat. I think I'm where you were at when you said that your other family members have to help make it happen if you all want to be a close family. In the past I also had awkward moments with the emergency contact form - I often put friends instead of family on those forms.

When my mother rages and blames me, my brother must keep his distance, because being around me (in her eyes) is fraternizing with the enemy. [text cut]

Sometimes I wish we could be closer. We invite my brother and his wife to events and dinners occasionally, and they do reciprocate, but it's not very often. When we do get together, we don't discuss our parents. Fortunately, my niece is about the same age as my son, so the kids can play and we have other things to talk about.

GeekyGirl, I'm glad that you do see your brother occasionally but I think it's hard to have it be anything more than superficial when you don't see eye-to-eye on something as fundamental as your parents. But maybe that changes over the long haul - I don't know.

What do you think you should do when it comes to your brothers? Do you want a relationship (even a superficial one) with them?

I guess right now I'm not sure. I want a relationship with them (and my sisters-in-law, whom I like), and as an aunt I feel strongly that I should be there for my nieces and nephews. But I also feel like... . I can't force it, and if I'm the only one trying, then why bother? I have to admit that part of me wants to prove my mom wrong and not let her get what she wants (splitting up her children/dividing us), but that's not a very mature reason to work on a sibling relationship.

Thanks everyone for your responses. I guess I'm not surprised that this type of issue is common given the strife that uBPDs cause. It's just more of the collateral damage that they inflict I guess... . but then again, once we are all adults, we have to take responsibility for our relationships, and not let uBPDs make our decisions for us.

[isshebpd]

I'm at the point now where I feel some regret for not having a closer relationship with my sister. I know she was upset at me in the past for not reaching out.

One time many years ago, when I was travelling, I bought a small painting and mailed to her for her birthday. It was after a couple of years of being far away and not bothering to communicate. Anyhow, to this day she hangs the painting in a prominent position in her house. I know what she's telling me.

We socialize with my sister and her family fairly regularly now, and we let them set the schedule because their lives are more complicated with the children.

As for my uNPDbro, I'm keeping my distance and hoping he becomes more self-aware.

[Pilate]

I think the books Extraordinary Relationships and Adult Children: Secrets of Dysfunctional Families do a good job of explaining how the illness or addiction of one member of a family is only part of the family system. The mental illness or addiction of one member is one part of a dysfunctional system if members of the family system aren't actively engaged in personal work to cope in healthy ways.

All this is a very long-winded way of saying, have you found that your adult sibling relationships are distant because of your upbringing? If not, are there any tips you have about how you've managed to stay close or what you've done to try to make your sibling relationships healthy?

My dh has a mom who is very NNNNNN (narcissistic) and a sister who appears to be uBPD. He is distant with all of his siblings, and this extends to other family relationships. DH has noted on occasion, "I wouldn't have contact with my family if it weren't for you." I have to be careful not to be the main connection to dh's family for him; he needs to maintain his relationships. There are people in DH's family I like and others that I am not fond of. I choose to foster relationships with those I like and DH follows--he feels very ambivalent about his family after years of drama/guilt/FOG, and he doesn't want our children infected (dh is very protective and angry about letting his family near our kids). However, we are not close geographically, for the most part. We email two or three times a month. We talk on the phone every couple of months to certain siblings/cousins/MIL, and we see people three or four times a year. Most of us live far apart, so the F2F time seems normal. I feel that my family is a bit more healthy, and we see my family a similar amount of time or less, and we live in different states and have similar phone/email habits, although I talk to my parents weekly.

If you have siblings who aren't actively doing personal work in similar ways that you are, the distance or superficial qualities will probably remain. For example, the people in DH's family that I feel we are closest to are the ones who have been in some sort of therapy and have worked to heal from dh's FOO. I don't think this is a coincidence. I think it means we are at similar places in how we fit into/enter dh's family system.

If your siblings aren't working on themselves the way that you are, Skinny, it might take them longer to make connections. However, there is always the hope that your sibs will want to do some of the healing work that you are doing.

Pilate

[skinny13]

If you have siblings who aren't actively doing personal work in similar ways that you are, the distance or superficial qualities will probably remain.

Pilate, I think you made a great point. I hadn't really thought of it that way. And it sounds like that is what is happening with your DH's family. I'm glad that some of them have gotten help and as a result you've been able to have a relationship with them.

issheBPD, your story of the painting really touched me. That's great that you and your sister and her family see each other more regularly now.