BPD son says we never have "real" conversations

[MammaMia]

My son has been calling me recently to tell me that we have never had a meaningful conversation EVER.  He is 39 years old.  He says all of our so-called conversations are superficial and I am pretending to be interested in what he has to say.

Our conversations are sometimes awkward.  Here is why:

He does not like to be questioned.  He wants to do all the talking and then says I have not heard a word he has said... . even when I verify that I heard every word.  If I am silent, it makes him angry.  My opinions are not important and he says so.  He does not want me to justify anything he says.  He does not want suggestions even when he asks for them ... . I am just trying to start an argument.  To thank him or praise him makes him angry.  To change the subject makes him angry.  He repeats the same issues over and over and over but rarely comes to any kind of conclusion. He says he has better conversations with complete strangers.

How many times can one talk about the same topic before it is like beating a dead horse?  

When we have a discussion that appears to have gone very well, he will often call the next day and start over with the "we have never had a meaningful conversation" again.  It is like he does not recall what we talked about the night before when our conversation ended on a positive note.  This happens on the phone and in person as well.

Is anyone else dealing with this?  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

Have you ever tried recording these conversations? I have tried this before and it is interesting to listen to them again. My dd has gotten pretty angry at times when i have done this and I think it is because she knows her behavior is so bad she doesn't want you to record it. It might help you to hear it later so you can try to think of a way to change your responses... . sounds like you can't do anything right or say anything right. There must be a way to cut these conversation short when they start to loop?

[qcarolr]

I hear all the time from Dd27 that I do not have conversations with her. That I am 'never' there for -- often when I am there with her helping her with something. My perception is that I cannot 'fix' whatever DD is trying to figure out, or I no longer take on the blame and apologize to her for something I was not involved in, or I don't agree with her actions or values. Often this happens when other things are triggering her emotions. She is projecting her emotional stuff on me so she does not have to deal with it, or take personal responsibility for it.

It does hurt  when they back track on what felt so good in the recent past. I try to remind myself this is the out of balance thinking of a person with mental illness.

qcr  

[MammaMia]

jellibeans and qcarol

Thank you.  It is a relief to me to know others understand this weird "conversation" issue.  I get frustrated to the point where I really prefer not to take his calls.  If I avoid him, he eventually just shows up at my house. 

Well, my son just called.  He was upset because he tried to reach me several times while I was at the store.  I was gone about 15 minutes.  I am going to his place tomorrow to discuss some concerns he has about new neighbors.  He thinks they are watching him and listening to his conversations.  He would not discuss it in detail on the phone because of that.  He is really paranoid.

I think this may be the external factor fueling some of his "extra" odd behavior.  He sounds very stressed... . almost frightened ... . about his privacy being invaded.  Prior to this, the house next door was empty.  I told him I want to put up a privacy fence between the two properties.  I know this would help him feel safer.  Frankly, I have been thinking about it for a while.

It is so hard to understand what motivates their myriad of insecurities.  But it is what it is. 

Oh Lord... . give me strength.  Yet another battle on the horizon.  Like you, I am weary of the drama and the conflict, but I will keep my fingers crossed.

[jellibeans]

mamma

is he in therapy? on meds? This paranoia is concerning... . your ds seems  to be really struggling. Do think he is taking his medication?

How bout if you don't verbalize at all... . simply nodding your head or a hmming? Just agreeing with him and letting you know you are hearing him? He seems to rely on you a great deal... . not being able to go to the store for 15 minute with panic seems like he needs you a great deal even though he seems to be irritated by you at the same time. He must respect you and what you have to say or he won't call you so much.

Has he asked for the fence? Have you just come out and asked "what I can I do to help you?"

[MammaMia]

jellibeans

I met with ds today for over 3 hours.  We talked about many things including his paranoia, which he ultimately believes is not paranoia but hypersensitivity to his surroundings.  I tried to make him understand that the neighbors have a right to be outside and go about their daily lives, and he has the right to do EXACTLY the same thing.  He needs to stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and thinking and stop internalizing and directing all this negativity towards himself.  Basically, everyone needs to mind their own business.

The fence... . he wants it, then he does not want it... .    He thought I would expect him to install it.  I told him I would hire someone else to do it, and pay for it since I own the home.  He is not happy about the prospect of having people he does not know on the property, worries about the expense, etc.  Round and round we go.  I told him when he has made up his mind to let me know.   I believe the fence is a good idea and the only solution.

Then he started in on the "lack of communication... . no meaningful conversations", etc.  Same old same old.  He told

me I am toxic and I stress him out.  I told him he stresses me out when he calls me constantly complaining about things I cannot control and rejecting any suggestions for positive change.  I am tired of spinning my wheels, getting no cooperation, and then being blamed for NOT having done what he said he did not want!

To make a long story short... . he vented... . I vented, and we both decided to take a break from each other.  He is not on medication and not in therapy.  Why?  Because HE is normal.  I am the crazy one.

Yes, I have asked what I can do to help him.  His answer is always "nothing".  Frustrating.

[jellibeans]

mamma

I think even though you feel you are not doing anything he must like talking to you and bouncing his ideas off of you. I think you are right in limiting how many times per day he can contact you. You are probably a great comfort to him even though he complains about it constantly.

I also had the feeling it was you that was the crazy one... . he he he... . sorry for make light of the situation but this always seems to be the way with BPD. I wonder if he would go to T with you if it was going to improve communication between the two of you? Take care and put a bit of distance between the two of you for now.  

[js friend]

Hi MammaMia,

It is hard to have conversation with someone who wont let you in, or that you end up going in circles with because ive done the same thing with my dd on occasions but have you actaully asked your son what a meaningful conversation would sound like?

A similar complaint came out when my dd18 told the t that I never asked her enough questions and I  never listen. when the t asked her what kind of questions she was referring to dd said i didnt ask her enough questions about herself. If I did she would usually become agitated with me or would lie so I thought she wanted me to avoid asking anything... . Turns out she wanted me to ask her more of how she is feeling... . if she has slept well, if anything is upsetting her, if she feeling ok today etc. These were the important conversations she really wanted us to have as she told the T that she felt that I didnt care about her.

She didnt want me to launch into what she regarded as the more superficial conversations about school or how her friends were or other chit-chat.Knowing this  really helped to have better converstions .DD needed to feel that she could trust me so that she could begin to open up and it has really helped in our levels of communication.

[MammaMia]

jellibeans and J's Friend

It never ceases to amaze me how similar pwBPD are!  Small talk is taboo... . he really does not care even when he brings things up.  I too hear he wants to know how I "feel" as opposed to what I "think". ... . but the only opinions that count are his.  

If I ask too many questions about him, he says "I am not 12 years old.  I am not Mommy's little boy... . I am 39 years old!

Just stop it."  He contacts me because he does not want me to contact him.  That is fine.  At least I know he is ok.  It is the same conversations over and over that are difficult.  He lives alone and often talks about getting a roommate but quickly adds that he could not tolerate anyone else in the house.  I suspect this is true.

He does seem to value my thoughts on certain subjects, although they are to him completely twisted and Illogical.  Unless he makes my suggestions his own... . then they are fine.

He belongs and is active in AA.  He has had intense therapy in the past but, does not want therapy now because he has no insurance and no job and they may medicate him.  This was done in the past before he was diagnosed with BPD and the results were disastrous.  Wrong meds made him so much worse.  He is afraid of them.

It is what it is.  I love my man/child and do grasp what BPD is about.  But as you both know, they can wear you down and frustrate you to a point where it is necessary for one or the other or both to take a break.  He knows I am here for him and always will be.  But I try very hard not to be too intrusive.

I appreciate your comments and the knowledge that others get the frustration I am feeling at the moment.  No, I am not crazy... . yet.  We have all heard this from our pwBPD and it shows just how far apart our two worlds really are.  

Have I told anyone today that I absolutely HATE BPD and what it does to everyone involved?   There... . now I feel better.  

PS  my ds just showed up to drop off his garbage.  He looked tired and I asked if he slept well last night.  He said yes.  Then told me he had to goo "too much drama" ... . He did find my being in my nightgown at 230 pm with no make up and my hair sticking out all over mildly amusing. That's not drama... . that is just plain lazy!

[Kate4queen]

My son is the same, his recall about our conversations, or how we've tried to support him over the years have no basis in reality at all. He has to see us as evil incarnate to justify his behavior. I've given up trying to defend myself as I've realized it comes from his frustration at believing he can't communicate the pain in his life to anyone.

If we sympathize, we're told we have no idea how hard his life is, if we don't sympathize then we are the  most appalling parents in the world. If we try to offer useful advice we are screamed at for trying to control him and he'll fixate on one thing I said and go off about it.

For example, when we were attempting to talk to him about controlling his finances-(he asked for our input)- we suggested that in a pinch, a loaf of white bread, a jar of peanut butter and jelly can go along way. He got into a fit about the peanut butter thing-totally ignoring the advice behind the example of cutting back when you don't have the $ to go out and eat take out every night.

I've realized I can't win because it isn't really about me at all. It's his way of dealing with his anxiety. You just have to find a way to deal with it and remind yourself that you're not the crazy one here. He hates that we won't engage on these things anymore, and we calmly put them back onto him. But it's saved my sanity.

[MammaMia]

Kate

Exactly.  How old is your son?  What you have said is precisely what I deal with on a daily basis.  I have been a single parent since 1988, after 20 years of marriage to a man who was alcoholic, had ptsd from VietNam, and I am pretty sure he was borderline as well.  Oh, how I wish BPD had been a topic of discussion back then.  Just like autism it has finally come to the forefront.  Unfortunately, for those of us with adult children with BPD, it is really too little too late.  I was told he was just going through the "teenage years fraught with trauma"  and that he would "outgrow his issues with maturity". .  NOT.  He knew exactly how to bluff his way through multiple psychological evaluations.

I also agree, we need to do whatever is necessary to preserve our own sanity. 

BPD is such a dilemma for everyone involved.  I truly wish I could spend one day in his shoes just to make it clear to me what he goes through every day of his life.  Maybe I should be careful what I wish for... .

Thank you and God Bless each and every one of us on this board.  I am so thankful we have each other.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

ALWAYS

NEVER

EVERYBODY

NOBODY

When people (not just pwBPD) use these words it is a strong indicator that they are engaging in emotional thinking.

In the moment it feels like "We never" or "You always".

Another term that can be applied to emotional thinking in extremes... . black and white thinking. 

What could you possibly do or say when your son says "We never have real  conversations"? 

[MammaMia]

Ibjnitx

Other taboo words are "could, should, need, want, and must".  

We talk a lot about our situation.  How he can say we have NEVER had a meaningful conversation perplexes me.  When I ask exactly what specifically he would like to discuss, the standard answer is "I don't know".  "Just something meaningful".  

I realize pwBPD believe we can read their thoughts without the need for them to express what they are thinking or feeling.  I have made it known to him that I cannot do that and he needs to help me sort through what he has on his mind.  I am not sure he even knows. He just likes to be engaged in conversation... . during which the " you do not know how to have a real conversation"  speech comes into play.

To address your question about my response when he says our conversations are not meaningful, if I say anything like  "why not?"  or "I thought they were meaningful" then he is ready to argue.  I have learned not to go there.  

Could this be an attention seeking-device?

He is definitely black and white in his thought processes.  If I keep the conversation light, he says I am not taking things seriously.  If I am too serious, then he says all we discuss is negative

issues. Not so, we cover everything from religion to politics to philosophy.  Every aspect of his life: from when he was a baby through adulthood.  It is clear his view of growing up is much different than mine.  He seems to feel as though he was invisible.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.  We discuss relationships, the divorce, other family members.   While we have discussed his illness at length over the past few years, he has recently come to the conclusion  that he is "normal" and everyone else is sick.

His father was never involved significantly in either of our two children's lives.  After the divorce, he just did his own thing, and he died last November.  He and our son were estranged for many years. He says a part of his mental issues is the fact he grew up with two women.   Like his father, his view of women is twisted and he has little respect for anyone female.  He often says things like ... . "you know, I do not love you and I do not need you.  I just wish you would die".  I  tell him I am sorry to hear that because I love him very much.  

I am sorry for my long reply.  Everything is just very complex.

[Kate4queen]

Kate

Exactly.  How old is your son?  What you have said is precisely what I deal with on a daily basis.  I have been a single parent since 1988, after 20 years of marriage to a man who was alcoholic, had ptsd from VietNam, and I am pretty sure he was borderline as well.  Oh, how I wish BPD had been a topic of discussion back then.  Just like autism it has finally come to the forefront.  Unfortunately, for those of us with adult children with BPD, it is really too little too late.  I was told he was just going through the "teenage years fraught with trauma"  and that he would "outgrow his issues with maturity". .  NOT.  He knew exactly how to bluff his way through multiple psychological evaluations.

I also agree, we need to do whatever is necessary to preserve our own sanity. 

BPD is such a dilemma for everyone involved.  I truly wish I could spend one day in his shoes just to make it clear to me what he goes through every day of his life.  Maybe I should be careful what I wish for... .

Thank you and God Bless each and every one of us on this board.  I am so thankful we have each other.

He's 22.

He also has mild cerebral palsy. We were always being told that his behavior was normal for a child raging at his disability, but we always questioned that because his actions seemed far worse. Of course, he was also very good at manipulating teachers, counselors and therapists into believing we were the problem. It was like no one wanted to listen to us.

So we had a child who was already susceptible to BPD and narcissm due to family history and then put him into an unnatural bubble where no one would tell the disabled boy that his behavior was out of order, where everyone made excuses for him, and the only people who didn't-us- were deemed the problem. Poor kid. He didn't stand a chance.