When Does Enmeshment Begin?

[mil2bpd]

I'm trying to get familiar with and understand all these terms. I *think* I've got a handle on enmeshment, at least as far as how it relates to two individuals like spouses or SO's who are supposed to be fairly equal in a relationship.  But what about a mother and child? I think I've seen some of that pattern emerging with my uBPD DIL before her BP traits starting emerging. She has always seemed to embellish compliments the child gets, downplays his speech delay and occasionally used baby talk with him, also reluctant to move him out of his crib saying she didn't want to rush his growing up.

Is wanting a child to remain a baby and dependent on his or her mother considered a form of enmeshment?  Has this type of behavior affected some members here who have felt that from their BPD mothers? And most importantly, if this is the case is it possible to intervene on this unhealthy process?

[Calsun]

Hi mil2BPD,

Thanks for your post.  Wow, this really affected me.  I grew up with an uBPD mother and experienced her trying to stop me from growing up at every turn.  I was a very smart kid, very capable, and yet she was constantly infantilizing, breeding dependence on her, and trying to convince me that every accomplishment or sign of my own competence was really to her credit.  She insisted she cut my food until I was in the fourth grade.  She walked me to school and carried my books long after it was unnecessary. When I brought home great grades in school, she would take the complete credit for pushing me to do well, but blame me for my "failures."  I felt deeply ashamed and felt as though I was incompetent and just less competent than other children, even though it was clearly about my mother's need to not have me grow up, so that she would not be abandoned. I looked to others to tell me what to do and to do things for me because I felt that I would be laughed at and could not make decisions and do things effectively for myself.

The effects of that on my life have been profound.  I have often taken jobs in my adult life and pursued professional goals that were far below my capabilities.  I was a straight A student and very accomplished, but felt as though I was incapable of really handling responsibilities.  And when you feel that way, you end up under earning and doing far less interesting and compelling work than you are capable of.  And that also affected my personal life, feeling as though I could never really handle the responsibilities of a family of my own.

I am relearning and in recovery and understanding that my mother's behavior toward me was not about my "incompetence."  But as a uBPD mother, she was trying to get me to always feel dependent on her, so that I would never leave her or abandon her, and that it was about her dysregulation, not about my lack of ability to handle meaningful responsibility.

Calsun

[ScarletOlive]

mil2BPD,

Yes, enmeshment does occur a lot between parents with BPD and their children. People who suffer from BPD often don't have a permanent sense of self, or how much of a person is the individual vs. the collective. Growing up, expressing personal beliefs, having privacy, making friends outside of the family, these can all threaten a pwBPD because of their fear of abandonment. A lot of the people here noticed that pwBPD struggle when their children are in their terrible twos, which is the original time for differentiation of self, and puberty and adolescence, which again is where we differentiate ourselves from our parents.

So, by keeping her son a baby, it could be just wanting him to enjoy his time as a kid, or it could be enmeshment. Receiving his compliments as personal affirmations makes sense. Your DIL with BPD probably suffers chronic feelings of emptiness and low self-worth, and so her need for validation is like a pail with holes in it... . it is impossible to fill. Basking in the glow of her child is one way she might be able to feel better about herself, even though it's unhealthy for her son to be responsible for his mother's emotional needs.

This article explains more about enmeshment (although it's a bit more on the adult side of things): Dealing with Enmeshment and Codependence

[mil2bpd]

Calsun, you ought to be very proud of yourself for identifying the traits your uBPD instilled in you - it sounds like now that you have you're going to be able to move that tremendous obstacle out of your path. You're clearly a very intelligent individual and I hope nothing holds you back any longer from claiming your power and potential. 

Your story reminded me of my own mother -- and I can see, in my own struggles and advances with those I've identified in the past with PDs -- how my she also prepped me for my "caregiver" role as she also had some borderline waif traits and probably was guilty of some enmeshment of her own. I recall when I was young she would always tell me I wouldn't like garlic as it wasn't a seasoning we had in our home and she discouraged me from trying it when we were out. As an adult I remember declining it, saying I didn't like it until one day it dawned on me, "How do I know I don't? I never tried it!" And when I did... . I LOVED IT!  That's a minor example but one nonetheless!

You mentioned you are in recovery -- I assume you are doing this with the assistance of an accomplished T? One who is well-versed in BPD? It's great you're taking whatever steps you need to now to get over those old inflicted wounds.  I wonder (ha - I wrote "wounder" at first) what I could do proactively to best enable the little two year old grandson and equip/protect/shield him during the time he'll be spending with the uBPD DIL? His maternal GM is a diagnosed BPD so it's a double dose there. And what I'm reading about children raised by such mothers is not encouraging - I am troubled at the prospect of him spending any prolonged time in her care.  These are some serious issues to be considered - and perhaps more reason for DS to consider full custody when the time comes. 

ScarletOlive, you also seem to have a similar perspective on this situation so curious to hear if a one-parent upbringing, with limited contact with the pwBPD makes some sense to you.  The enmeshment article was helpful... . there's so much to learn... .

[Calsun]

Hi mil2BPD,

Thanks for your support, I really appreciate it.  It sounds like you have your hands full with your DIL, and I know how difficult it must be. But it's fortunate that your grandson has you, that you are aware of the impact that his BPD mother and maternal grandmother will have on him. And that you can offer him real love and nurturing.

There was no mirroring of my uBPD mother when I was growing up.  My father dismissed any comments about her unwellness and invalidated my reality.  Extended family supported her reality that she was a good mother.  There was no escape from her as a child.  And the greatest problem I still face is holding onto my reality that she is the one who is ill, very ill, because I never had that validation when I was a child, and she was constantly projecting badness and sickness onto me.

I am not working with a therapist right now, but very much want to do so. I think it could help a lot. I am looking for someone who is well-versed in working with adult children of borderline parents, not sure how to find that person though.  I have been in therapy in the past, and no therapist ever really identified my mother as being uBPD.  And now I know that it is essential that the therapist I work with have that insight and expertise.

It's all making sense to me now, that my mother's behavior really did fit into a complex that fits into BPD. My mother's behavior didn't make sense to me until recently, yes it was abusive, but it had so many aspects to it that seemed contradictory at the same time.  Now I see how it all fits together, the projections, the tirades, the terror of abandonment, the undermining of confidence and personal autonomy and individuation, the invalidation of reality, all of it. These boards have been so helpful to understand that I am not alone in dealing with the effects of this disease.  And what a horrible disease it is and what a horrible effect it has on children.  It's hard to design a worse parent for a child to have.  The verbal and physical abuse, the humiliation, the projection of horrible identities onto children, the invalidation of the child's reality, the undermining of the child's autonomy and sense of self, the craziness of seeing the parent lauded by others and be mild in public and then the hidden, extreme abuse in the home, and the attempted forging of a life-long psychological and emotional dependence through conditioned violence and abuse.  

Fortunately, I am getting more and more support for psychological and emotional separation, validation of the reality that, yes mothers do do these unthinkable and unfathomable evils to their children if the mothers are BPDs. It is a difficult journey, but it's good to know, and I am starting to understand finally, that I need not be alone in the journey.  I felt all alone in terrible emotional pain with this most of my life, felt that no one would believe me, was without a real mother and father to love and protect me, felt that I was the one who was irredeemably flawed and bad (what my uBPD mother and enabling father left me with), and that no one was there to intervene on my behalf. I think one of the reasons why I was in such denial about my parents was because it was better to hold onto the illusion of parents being there than to accept the reality that I was all alone.  I am learning that I can trust myself more and more, trust my sense of reality, trust my judgment, trust my competence, trust my interior goodness and trust my vision of what was really going on in my family of origin. I had a mother who acted like a monster, who was very sick, and no adult stepped in to do anything about it.  That was my reality.

Thanks for sharing and for listening,

Calsun

[mil2bpd]

Dear dear Calsun... . for someone who is working on healing themselves, without the assistance of a T, you have remarkable courage, fortitude and insight. I applaud you and your tremendous advances along this difficult and challenging path.

Have you read the book by Christine Lawson on BPD mothers? Excellent as it divides such women into 4 categories: Queen, Witch, Hermit and Waif. Truly helped me in my own dealings with some powerful women in my life.

And... . may I send you a private message? Don't want to do so without your permission... . it will be v. brief.

[Calsun]

Thank you very much for your support!  I did read Christine Lawson's book a while ago and it was eye-opening.  I'm getting ready to read it again in light of the new awareness in me recently.  I have been reading Surviving A Borderline Parent by Kimberlee Roth and Freda Friedman.  Also, very helpful.

Calsun

[isshebpd]

I didn't know this at the time, but my uBPDmom was going to my brother's elementary school and taking him during the lunch period. A relative told me this recently, and thought it was peculiar at the time. I was at school myself, in high school, so I had no idea this was happening.

Myself and my sister were never taken home from school at lunch. In fact, I started walking unsupervised to and from school at the age of 7. I never saw my uBPDmom from when I left in the morning until I got home in the afternoon.

For some reason, my brother (the youngest by far) made our uBPDmom aware of all his conflicts with teachers and other children. I guess he was becoming so enmeshed that he had to get uBPDmom involved in all his problems. So my uBPDmom was constantly trying to step in and somehow prevent her golden child from ever getting hurt. This meant she was at war with his teachers, and even a principal at one point (I remember her ranting about this).

The problem with uBPDmoms is they are so self-righteous that even professionals can't tell them anything. Any attempt to help an enmeshed child might have to be done in stealth, like finding ways to get the child involved in activities away from their uBPDmom.

[mil2bpd]

issheBPD - thanks for helping to shed some light on this for me. I'm definitely getting confirmation here through these personal stories as well as through some online reading about this. I gather you didn't totally escape the wounds of a BPD mother but that your brother was the one who felt the full effects of enmeshment. I wonder how he's affected by it to this day? 

So what I'm wondering, too, at this point and from my perspective as a grandmother, what can I possibly do proactively to help protect this little GS from feeling the full head-on effects of a BPD mother?  Honestly, if we've seen what they're capable of doing, and the various methods/means with which they carry out their diabolical attacks, how can we be better armed to provide children with a balanced and loving upbringing?

[isshebpd]

I believe my brother has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Even though he is a math genius and skilled with computers, his career is a mess. He has never had a SO, as far as the family knows, and he's 35. He is still very dependent on our parents, in a bad way.

I have diagnosed PTSD and substance abuse issues (my enDad probably has PTSD too). I'm married over 20 years, but we choose not to have children (expensive city, traumatic childhoods etc.). My high-stress career hit the skids due to health problems caused by anxiety. I could go on, but I'll leave it at that.

My sister is the model to go with for a child of a uBPDmom. When we were kids, she was involved in many things. She was go-go-go all the time with sports, academics, arts etc. Straight As on every report card. She just kept so darn busy that she wasn't around our uBPDmom much. Obviously she hurts inside, but that hasn't kept her from being successful in every way I can imagine (including a devoted husband and two lovely children).

Help build your GS as an individual. Encourage his hobbies and interests, whether they are a few or many. Give him time away from the insane drama, whenever you can. I remember both my grandmothers well, and miss them. Their love was important.

Wow, writing this was cathartic

[mil2bpd]

I'm glad to hear your grandmothers conjure up such pleasant memories for you, isshebad. It's funny how to this day I can get a whiff of a certain kind of flower, I'm not even certain what kind, but it immediately transports me back to my grandparents' home. Such wonderful memories! I'm happy you had that in your childhood, which otherwise sounded a bit like walking from one land mine to the next!

I  can certainly understand how that could lead to the issues you've had to deal with in adulthood, and from what you described of your brother/mother dyad how he is likely suffering from NPD. Sometimes I wonder what parents were thinking, IF they were thinking, when they decided to undertake the role of parenting. Good for you and your spouse for having made the choice you felt comfortable with in that regard.

The advice you gave me for building my GS as an individual gave me goosebumps. I aspire to do just that. To encourage him to be who is he, who he wants to be, and to comfortable in his own skin. He's mixed race - so that's an interesting choice of words. But it's true. I love him and want the best for him - he deserves to have a life of opportunity and love; unconditional love with guidance, support, encouragement and, when he needs it, a shoulder to lean on. I hope he has that shoulder with me... . and my DS, of course... .

[mil2bpd]

Just noticed that little "Freudian" slip there, IssheBPD -- I wrote "Isshebad" !  Well... . yeah, sounds like she was!

[Clearmind]

I didnt realize it as a kid however when I was older I realized I was my fathers little wife. He even tended to choose girlfriends who were not so bright and not at all street wise because he had me to fill the gap.

I soon got myself out of the role. It took time to not only cut the apron strings but to also feel OK about cutting apron strings. Feeling so obligated to fix everything for him became a past time - it made me feel valuable since that is what I did as a child to feel loved. Along with that came guilt.

Things are so much better now.

[mil2bpd]

Another interesting twist to this disorder, Clearmind. Elevating a child to the level of a wife, and lowering a GF to the level of a child. I'm sure it took some time to cut those strings - as a child, it must have taken quite a bit of time to even recognize that wasn't "normal" behavior.

It made me think about something as I was going to bed last night... . here I was thinking my DIL was infantalizing my GS so much but there was another unusual thing that showed how disconnected she is from providing for his needs adequately, or like a typical mother would. We'd even discussed as GS's 2nd birthday party with another mom about preparing for a long plane trip we were taking together a week later about what to bring to keep him busy during the flight. I bought him two activity books as he loves keys and buttons and the like - and wouldn't you know... . DIL "forgot" to bring them! She also forgot to pack diapers. Instead, she packed coloring books and crayons (he does this activity for about a minute) and regular books he barely sits still for. It was as if she had no clue, was overwhelmed by the preparation for the child's needs.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around what goes on in the head of a BPD... . not so sure I want to enter into it... .

[Clearmind]

It took a string of dysfunctional relationships, at least one with BPD to recognize my childhood pattern of relationship relating. I figured it out at 38 with the help of a wonderful therapist!

Kids between the ages of 3-13 learn to individuate from the parent - meaning they may 'adopt' an imaginary friend, obsess over a blanket or favourite toy to signify separation from mother - this is healthy behaviour - kids begin to learn to that if mum leaves the room she will return. Borderlines have not been taught to individuate therefore tend to treat kids with the same infantile object attachment they experienced.

You would be right it is difficult for them to grasp a child's needs. A great book: https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a108.htm.

Do you have reasonably good communication with the Mum?

[mil2bpd]

It took a string of dysfunctional relationships, at least one with BPD to recognize my childhood pattern of relationship relating. I figured it out at 38 with the help of a wonderful therapist!

You would be right it is difficult for them to grasp a child's needs. A great book: https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a108.htm.

Do you have reasonably good communication with the Mum?

That's fortunate you made the connection and got linked up with a good therapist at that point. My uBPD DIL is 34 and although she can readily admit her mother suffers from BPD/bipolar disorder she appears to be having a hard time seeing and accepting the traits in herself. She and I had a wonderful relationship up until the past month or so when she painted me black so right now, no - unfortunately we no longer have a good line of communication.  Prior to that the only indication things weren't so rosy in the communication line - as I thought we were open about everything - was essentially being told to not mention any concerns about GS's delayed speech. She is very sensitive about that and seems to rather make up stories that he talks just fine around her but it's only when he's in the presence of others that he resorts to a few monosyllables. He's a bright, albeit very active child, just a bit speech delayed. Nothing to be ashamed of - but I think to a BPD mother there is a tremendous sense of shame if she perceives her child is somehow not measuring up to her standard of perfection... . and that is worrisome.

I did start to read that very helpful link, thank you for that. It looks pretty deep and it's been a long week.  DS and GS are here for the weekend now and I'll save my energy to tackle it when I have more focus to devote. I've earmarked it to my favorites.  So much information to digest; I hope I can draw upon it all. This little boy is a bundle of energy - I can see how raising him is a challenge especially to a mother who has questionable coping and mothering skills... . again, worrisome... .