Childhood conditioning to BPD & NPD

[Our abuse recovery guide]

I've not done well in relationships most of my adult life. A few years back, an acquaintence talked about "Bordeline Personality Disorder," and I looked up the definition. The list of characteristics are men I have dated. I stopped dating for a while, then had been going out with a friend I've known for over 23 years. We dated about 1.5 years. Due to his career, and struggles to make it happen, and student loan debt, he has withdrawn within the last month Plus.

But I'm taking this back to the beginning.

My father was a corporate president and mom raised us. Kinda. She grew up in an orphanage in a German-occupied town in Europe and never understood why she was left there. Her father fought for custody of her when her mother divorced him, and in those days, the shame of that, and that a male parent was "inappropriate" to raise a female child, left her in the orphanage. Or that's what she's told me. So every time I misbehaved (c'mon, I was a child!), she would threaten to drop me off in an orphanage. A few times, she would offer to give me to strangers. One haunting memory was how one man kept following us all day and saying how his teenaged son would just love me. She turned to me and asked "how would you like that? Would you like to go live with this man in New York?" I was 4! I didn't know families didn't just pass kids off if they didn't behave exactly as the parent dictated. Yes, as an adult of nearly 50, this sounds ridiculous, and likely just typical nonsense adults joke with their children, but I was not of the mindset to know better at such a young age and these events formed who I am.

I grew up to be extremely independent, in case I were ever given away and didn't have anyone to take care of me, I knew how to cook and sew and all the necessary skills for survival. Or camping, from college years and beyond :-) But out of fear of being passed off, I grew up jumping every time my mother asked and always fearfully calming the peace when she would go off on a rant, blaming any of us children for whatever disturbed her. My oldest brother was either born bipolar or didn't fare so well, and got into drugs, is a frightening alcoholic, and would also blow up from Jeckle to Hyde with little provocation.

Once I was lost in a crowd, as my family was escorting us children from a ball game, and I was lost for quite some time. Since I would do everything in my power to know where I was and where home was, I just kept walking home. I knew the way. Eventually I was picked up by some police officers and brought back to my family. Then yelled at and threatened some more.

My grandmother had remarried another man. I'm not sure what age he began groping me, but this went on for years. I would tell my mother about it and how distressing it was, and she dismissed it and would get upset with me for telling stories. Until one day, I was a teenager by now, growing into a woman, and he did it to my mother. Suddenly she believed me and apologized and cut ties with he and my grandmother for many years. But I learned that no one would listen when I would try to tell them what was happening, and that there was no help to be had. My brother even watched and began doing it to me as well.

My brothers and I lived together in college and this oldest one began doing cocaine (I had no idea, the neighbor told me about it), and eventually flunked out of college. One time he was lying around like he typically did, and I was so busy with classes and studying, that I didn't know he had been bitten by a spider and developed a staph infection. I was blamed for being negligent and subjecting him to whatever extended period of time he had been laying there with this mess. He was always a mess. I didn't know the difference. He never paid rent, and I constantly covered for him, working and going to school, while he was busy partying. Food was shared, and I would even collect bottles to buy us spaghetti even. Asking for money from my parents was such utter torture I gave up and declared myself independent, so no, that was not an option. I learned to not ask for help. There was never any use for it; it never gained anything but shame and torment.

This is my conditioning from childhood. This is why I have dated borderlines and narcissists. I would always try to listen and make peace, I would take blame for things that were so unrealistically not my fault, just to stop the screaming and to not be dumped; left on the side of the road; given away to an orphanage or complete strangers. I always wanted to belong and to be heard.

When people would comment to me that I had such beautiful blond hair, my mother would always point out she was a model. When people would say how thin I was, my mother was always thinner. I was never allowed a compliment and to this day I cringe when complimented because I fear even that will be taken away from me. I feel I am talented artistically, scientifically, and mathematically, but when I would proudly show my family my drawings, I would hear "that's nice," but never see their head turn to look at it. I hadn't bothered showing my art until recently because I felt no one was really looking at it anyway. Art is a passion of mine, but I keep my passion to myself.

This is what brought me here. I have dated men who resemble every characteristic of BPD or NPD because I have been singularly trained to endure it. I had an excruciating relationship I recovered from through these boards, and for that I am grateful.

I am back because just today, I was talking on the phone to my mother and I finally opened up about something besides gardening or housekeeping (boring topics to my mother so she doesn't one-up me on whatever topic I talk to her about) about my dear neighbor who had a stroke and as I was talking to her about how upset I am, she was talking to my brother in the background. I said "hello, hello? are you there? are you listening?" and she was still carrying on her conversation with him, and I said, "never mind, call me back when you're not busy," and hung up. She hates being hung up on. But a couple minutes later she phoned back and said we were disconnected. I said, no I hung up because you weren't listening. She said I did it all the time when I was married (that was 10 years ago). I said she would interrupt me when I was a child trying to talk on the phone, and please discuss the relevant issue at hand. Yes, it got heated. Yes, eventually I will have to apologize for this, too.

I just really need help, and I need to belong to a family that's healthy. She kept us in such isolation growing up, even reading all my mail, coming and going, monitoring every phone call, reading every journal, which stopped as quickly as I discovered even that breach. We were never allowed to freely interact with extended family members because we were programmed to paint a rosy picture. I have no idea who I'm related to beyond some cousins in California. Even then she jealously demands to know what I talk about with them on Facebook because she's convinced I'm telling them things about her.

I can't take this anymore. The phone has been ringing as I type and I shut off my cell phone so I don't have to listen to it. I will eventually listen to the scalding VM messages, but not today. I will have to apologize for being upset that my neighbor had a stroke and she wouldn't listen. It doesn't matter. I will visit when he is out of the ICU and not talk to her about this. I need to communicate with real people, and I am too old to be controlled an manipulated like this, but this is how it will be until the day she dies. I live 3000 miles away for all these reasons.

Eventually I would like to sort out what is going on in my personal relationship, but I needed to post what I feel is the basis for why I am here. I need to be heard.

[Asa]

I've not done well in relationships most of my adult life. A few years back, an acquaintence talked about "Bordeline Personality Disorder," and I looked up the definition. The list of characteristics are men I have dated. I stopped dating for a while, then had been going out with a friend I've known for over 23 years. We dated about 1.5 years. Due to his career, and struggles to make it happen, and student loan debt, he has withdrawn within the last month Plus.

But I'm taking this back to the beginning.

My father was a corporate president and mom raised us. Kinda. She grew up in an orphanage in a German-occupied town in Europe and never understood why she was left there. Her father fought for custody of her when her mother divorced him, and in those days, the shame of that, and that a male parent was "inappropriate" to raise a female child, left her in the orphanage. Or that's what she's told me. So every time I misbehaved (c'mon, I was a child!), she would threaten to drop me off in an orphanage. A few times, she would offer to give me to strangers. One haunting memory was how one man kept following us all day and saying how his teenaged son would just love me. She turned to me and asked "how would you like that? Would you like to go live with this man in New York?" I was 4! I didn't know families didn't just pass kids off if they didn't behave exactly as the parent dictated. Yes, as an adult of nearly 50, this sounds ridiculous, and likely just typical nonsense adults joke with their children, but I was not of the mindset to know better at such a young age and these events formed who I am.

I grew up to be extremely independent, in case I were ever given away and didn't have anyone to take care of me, I knew how to cook and sew and all the necessary skills for survival. Or camping, from college years and beyond :-) But out of fear of being passed off, I grew up jumping every time my mother asked and always fearfully calming the peace when she would go off on a rant, blaming any of us children for whatever disturbed her. My oldest brother was either born bipolar or didn't fare so well, and got into drugs, is a frightening alcoholic, and would also blow up from Jeckle to Hyde with little provocation.

Once I was lost in a crowd, as my family was escorting us children from a ball game, and I was lost for quite some time. Since I would do everything in my power to know where I was and where home was, I just kept walking home. I knew the way. Eventually I was picked up by some police officers and brought back to my family. Then yelled at and threatened some more.

My grandmother had remarried another man. I'm not sure what age he began groping me, but this went on for years. I would tell my mother about it and how distressing it was, and she dismissed it and would get upset with me for telling stories. Until one day, I was a teenager by now, growing into a woman, and he did it to my mother. Suddenly she believed me and apologized and cut ties with he and my grandmother for many years. But I learned that no one would listen when I would try to tell them what was happening, and that there was no help to be had. My brother even watched and began doing it to me as well.

My brothers and I lived together in college and this oldest one began doing cocaine (I had no idea, the neighbor told me about it), and eventually flunked out of college. One time he was lying around like he typically did, and I was so busy with classes and studying, that I didn't know he had been bitten by a spider and developed a staph infection. I was blamed for being negligent and subjecting him to whatever extended period of time he had been laying there with this mess. He was always a mess. I didn't know the difference. He never paid rent, and I constantly covered for him, working and going to school, while he was busy partying. Food was shared, and I would even collect bottles to buy us spaghetti even. Asking for money from my parents was such utter torture I gave up and declared myself independent, so no, that was not an option. I learned to not ask for help. There was never any use for it; it never gained anything but shame and torment.

This is my conditioning from childhood. This is why I have dated borderlines and narcissists. I would always try to listen and make peace, I would take blame for things that were so unrealistically not my fault, just to stop the screaming and to not be dumped; left on the side of the road; given away to an orphanage or complete strangers. I always wanted to belong and to be heard.

When people would comment to me that I had such beautiful blond hair, my mother would always point out she was a model. When people would say how thin I was, my mother was always thinner. I was never allowed a compliment and to this day I cringe when complimented because I fear even that will be taken away from me. I feel I am talented artistically, scientifically, and mathematically, but when I would proudly show my family my drawings, I would hear "that's nice," but never see their head turn to look at it. I hadn't bothered showing my art until recently because I felt no one was really looking at it anyway. Art is a passion of mine, but I keep my passion to myself.

This is what brought me here. I have dated men who resemble every characteristic of BPD or NPD because I have been singularly trained to endure it. I had an excruciating relationship I recovered from through these boards, and for that I am grateful.

I am back because just today, I was talking on the phone to my mother and I finally opened up about something besides gardening or housekeeping (boring topics to my mother so she doesn't one-up me on whatever topic I talk to her about) about my dear neighbor who had a stroke and as I was talking to her about how upset I am, she was talking to my brother in the background. I said "hello, hello? are you there? are you listening?" and she was still carrying on her conversation with him, and I said, "never mind, call me back when you're not busy," and hung up. She hates being hung up on. But a couple minutes later she phoned back and said we were disconnected. I said, no I hung up because you weren't listening. She said I did it all the time when I was married (that was 10 years ago). I said she would interrupt me when I was a child trying to talk on the phone, and please discuss the relevant issue at hand. Yes, it got heated. Yes, eventually I will have to apologize for this, too.

I just really need help, and I need to belong to a family that's healthy. She kept us in such isolation growing up, even reading all my mail, coming and going, monitoring every phone call, reading every journal, which stopped as quickly as I discovered even that breach. We were never allowed to freely interact with extended family members because we were programmed to paint a rosy picture. I have no idea who I'm related to beyond some cousins in California. Even then she jealously demands to know what I talk about with them on Facebook because she's convinced I'm telling them things about her.

I can't take this anymore. The phone has been ringing as I type and I shut off my cell phone so I don't have to listen to it. I will eventually listen to the scalding VM messages, but not today. I will have to apologize for being upset that my neighbor had a stroke and she wouldn't listen. It doesn't matter. I will visit when he is out of the ICU and not talk to her about this. I need to communicate with real people, and I am too old to be controlled an manipulated like this, but this is how it will be until the day she dies. I live 3000 miles away for all these reasons.

Eventually I would like to sort out what is going on in my personal relationship, but I needed to post what I feel is the basis for why I am here. I need to be heard.

[PrettyPlease]

Asa,

I understand. You deserve to be heard, and congratulations for getting it out.

My life trajectory is similar to what you've described, in several respects, and I think I can say I know how you feel. My mother and father made it to the very end without being able to respond to my need for a balanced communication. They simply were not capable, I now realize.

And I also had relationships that didn't work, with people who had BPD characteristics (or perhaps were even fully BPD, though not diagnosed).

I also moved 3,000 miles from my parents. The telephone, as you note, is a two-edged sword.

You say you've used the site, and that you will post eventually about your personal relationship. I encourage you to do this. And also about your relationship with your mother.

Perhaps starting a thread on the Board for people with BPD Parents/Siblings would be a good idea; many people there will be able to give support and suggestions based on their own experience. And the tools for separating from people with BPD might be useful to look at also. They were very useful to me.

If you have more to say here as background, yep, get it all out!      

PP

[schwing]

Hi Asa and  

I've not done well in relationships most of my adult life. A few years back, an acquaintence talked about "Bordeline Personality Disorder," and I looked up the definition. The list of characteristics are men I have dated. I stopped dating for a while, then had been going out with a friend I've known for over 23 years. We dated about 1.5 years. Due to his career, and struggles to make it happen, and student loan debt, he has withdrawn within the last month Plus.

Many of us here have had BPD parents.  I think it is not an uncommon phenomena that we unconsciously seek similarly dispositioned partners in order to work out the cognitive dissonances and/or deficiencies we inherit from our parents.

She grew up in an orphanage in a German-occupied town in Europe and never understood why she was left there.

That sounds like a possible scenario for a primary abandonment trauma.

So every time I misbehaved (c'mon, I was a child!), she would threaten to drop me off in an orphanage. A few times, she would offer to give me to strangers... . Yes, as an adult of nearly 50, this sounds ridiculous, and likely just typical nonsense adults joke with their children, but I was not of the mindset to know better at such a young age and these events formed who I am.

It was still a threat of abandonment.  And this was just one which you could consciously recall.  In my observation, it is common for people with BPD (pwBPD) to project their own fears and behaviors onto those close to them.  I think it enhances their delusion when they can cause those close to them to act the part.  So it is possible that your mother scared you with such threats of abandonment in an effort to convince herself it was you who has a disordered fear of abandonment, and not her.

I have no doubt that these kinds of experiences, remembered and unremembered, formed who you are.

I grew up to be extremely independent, in case I were ever given away and didn't have anyone to take care of me, I knew how to cook and sew and all the necessary skills for survival. Or camping, from college years and beyond :-) But out of fear of being passed off, I grew up jumping every time my mother asked and always fearfully calming the peace when she would go off on a rant, blaming any of us children for whatever disturbed her.

I think you grew up with at least one parent who expected you to take care of her.  :)oing for her, what a parent would normally do for a child.

My oldest brother was either born bipolar or didn't fare so well, and got into drugs, is a frightening alcoholic, and would also blow up from Jeckle to Hyde with little provocation.

It is quite common for children of BPD to develop the same disorder due to their parents insensitivity to how their children might experience the kind of invalidation and denigration their disorder inclines them to express.

Once I was lost in a crowd, as my family was escorting us children from a ball game, and I was lost for quite some time. Since I would do everything in my power to know where I was and where home was, I just kept walking home. I knew the way. Eventually I was picked up by some police officers and brought back to my family. Then yelled at and threatened some more.

You grew up not trusting or expecting your parents to find you should you become lost.  I marvel at your resourcefulness as a child. But I also wonder if having grown up in such a fashion, it makes it very difficult (if not impossible) for you to expect or trust another person to take care of you in the way a life partner might.

My grandmother had remarried another man. I'm not sure what age he began groping me, but this went on for years. I would tell my mother about it and how distressing it was, and she dismissed it and would get upset with me for telling stories. Until one day, I was a teenager by now, growing into a woman, and he did it to my mother. Suddenly she believed me and apologized and cut ties with he and my grandmother for many years. But I learned that no one would listen when I would try to tell them what was happening, and that there was no help to be had. My brother even watched and began doing it to me as well.

So you are a survivor of not only covert incest, but of actual incest as well.  I do hope you have provided the appropriate support for yourself in your recovery from these difficult experiences.

My brothers and I lived together in college and this oldest one began doing cocaine (I had no idea, the neighbor told me about it), and eventually flunked out of college. One time he was lying around like he typically did, and I was so busy with classes and studying, that I didn't know he had been bitten by a spider and developed a staph infection. I was blamed for being negligent and subjecting him to whatever extended period of time he had been laying there with this mess. He was always a mess. I didn't know the difference. He never paid rent, and I constantly covered for him, working and going to school, while he was busy partying. Food was shared, and I would even collect bottles to buy us spaghetti even. Asking for money from my parents was such utter torture I gave up and declared myself independent, so no, that was not an option. I learned to not ask for help. There was never any use for it; it never gained anything but shame and torment.

Some children of BPD parents act out on the emotional chaos that was our childhood.  Some of us self-destruct in very extroverted ways: drugs, sex, material gratification, et al, and are considered low functioning.  Some of us swallow our chaos and internalize our invalidation and criticism which can motivate us to be high functioning, but no less unhappy.

This is my conditioning from childhood. This is why I have dated borderlines and narcissists. I would always try to listen and make peace, I would take blame for things that were so unrealistically not my fault, just to stop the screaming and to not be dumped; left on the side of the road; given away to an orphanage or complete strangers. I always wanted to belong and to be heard.

If you are like me, then you have an intrinsic draw to people with BPD and NPD.  I've had such relationships in an unconscious effort to relive the dysfunctional dynamics of my childhood in order to win the nurture and support of a BPD mother who was incapable of consistent affection, and to win the love and approval of a NPD father who sees me primarily as an extension of himself.  One might have better luck squeezing water from a rock.

When people would comment to me that I had such beautiful blond hair, my mother would always point out she was a model. When people would say how thin I was, my mother was always thinner. I was never allowed a compliment and to this day I cringe when complimented because I fear even that will be taken away from me. I feel I am talented artistically, scientifically, and mathematically, but when I would proudly show my family my drawings, I would hear "that's nice," but never see their head turn to look at it. I hadn't bothered showing my art until recently because I felt no one was really looking at it anyway. Art is a passion of mine, but I keep my passion to myself.

You never had the chance to internalize the approval of a parent for your efforts in self-expression and creation.  It is probably very difficult for you to share your passion out of fear of the rejection you have been conditioned to expect.  

I just really need help, and I need to belong to a family that's healthy.

I think this is a worthwhile goal.  And so long as you have the wherewithal and the courage to interact with other people, there is the potential for you to create for yourself a kind of community you desire for yourself.

She kept us in such isolation growing up, even reading all my mail, coming and going, monitoring every phone call, reading every journal, which stopped as quickly as I discovered even that breach. We were never allowed to freely interact with extended family members because we were programmed to paint a rosy picture. I have no idea who I'm related to beyond some cousins in California. Even then she jealously demands to know what I talk about with them on Facebook because she's convinced I'm telling them things about her.

Your mother isolated you from society to keep you from making a choice of family.  She wants your default choice to be only her.  So this way you can never "abandon" her, or at least choose someone else besides her.

There's a book called "Understanding the Borderline Mother" by Lawson, I think.  You might consider giving that book a look-see.

You are in the right place.

Best wishes, Schwing

[Asa]

I sent a warning text to my nearly normal brother, who just got back from visiting. He basically said it sucks and that I need to call mom tomorrow and mend things. Does anyone have any suggestion how to "mend" this?

I'm so tired of taking the blame and responsibility for all the bad behavior in my family. I just don't want to post any more of the events, I've lived too much of this insanity.

I also just checked the VM and 2 were from the alcoholic brother demanding to know why I hung up, then, the 2nd, believing I have an answering machine (it's the VM service with my provider, so I have no idea what they are saying), saying "pick up the phone... . " The 3rd was my mom saying it is my responsibility to apologize to her for my bad temper and that she would not be returning the phone call. My "bad temper" was anguish over my neighbor who had a severe stroke. The anguish escalated into confusion and then worse when I was accused of hanging up, it was so crazy. I said "hello" repeatedly and then "please call me back when you are available to talk." Then yes, I hung up.

The good brother just phoned and discussed, empathically, what was going on. He now said he will call and ask what is going on at the other end. He said he will take responsibility to mediate. It's not his issue at all, but I am grateful. I also told him I didn't even dare discuss that I dropped an iron on my foot 2 weeks ago and it's still a raw oozing mess. I can't imagine what a dialog about that would sound like. I'll go back to gardening discussions.

Why does she plead, demand and guilt me to phone more, and she almost always has a side discussion with my brother when we're on the phone? When I'm just talking gardening I don't care, I'm used to it, but the potential of losing my neighbor and so suddenly? Is that so hard to listen to someone who's concerned? Or is it that I was concerned for someone other than her? Or that I had a story more emotionally complicated than her list of errands and grocery shopping and she couldn't one-up me, so she creates this drama? Or all of the above? She constantly requires to be the center of attention. When others are talking, she goes into loud coughing fits, when otherwise she sits quietly when no one is speaking. Why?

[schwing]

Why does she plead, demand and guilt me to phone more, and she almost always has a side discussion with my brother when we're on the phone?

She wants to maintain an imagined relationship with you not an actual relationship with you.  She became disinterested in what you were talking about because it probably had nothing to do with her; I imagine it's when you are talking about her that she is most interactive and engaged.  Then again, perhaps her attention was taken away by pure coincidence.

I imagine you were upset because this has been a pretty consistent dynamic between you and your mother: you are expected to be attentive to what she says and attentive to her needs, but she is not expect to return the attention.  It is a double standard.

She pleads, demands and guilts you to phone more, purely in order for her to get more attention from you.  You, as an adult woman, can decide for yourself when you are able and willing to provide such a one sided interaction for her.  You can also decide for yourself when you are not able or willing to engage in such a conversation, especially when your mood does not suit you.

When I'm just talking gardening I don't care, I'm used to it, but the potential of losing my neighbor and so suddenly? Is that so hard to listen to someone who's concerned?

For her, perhaps it is.

Or is it that I was concerned for someone other than her?

Bingo.

Or that I had a story more emotionally complicated than her list of errands and grocery shopping and she couldn't one-up me, so she creates this drama?

There is a good chance that she might realize that she has upset you by her inattention.  But people with BPD are less capable of accepting negative qualities and behaviors of themselves; because they have a tendency to devalue themselves and their resulting depressions can be very dark.  A coping mechanism of theirs is to "project" their unacceptable behaviors and qualities onto to close to them.  So instead of having to admit that she was not attentive to you, she demands that you owe her an apology.  She chooses to devalue you, instead of herself.  And she will distort her perspective so that your brothers take her side.

This is a quality I would not expect her to change any time soon.  If ever.

She constantly requires to be the center of attention. When others are talking, she goes into loud coughing fits, when otherwise she sits quietly when no one is speaking. Why?

Because even though she is senior to all of you, she has the emotional resources of a small child.  She has the emotional demands and requirements of a small child.  And when a small child does not get the attention she demands, she throws a tantrum.  Do not expect empathy from a small child, so long as their needs are not met.

I sent a warning text to my nearly normal brother, who just got back from visiting. He basically said it sucks and that I need to call mom tomorrow and mend things. Does anyone have any suggestion how to "mend" this?

I'm so tired of taking the blame and responsibility for all the bad behavior in my family. I just don't want to post any more of the events, I've lived too much of this insanity.

My suggestion on how to mend this is to deal with your upset and anger first.  And then perhaps try to accept that your mother is mentally disordered.  You would not expect a person with Alzheimer's to remember, though you might be upset if they forgot.  If you can learn to accept that your mother is mentally disorder, and imagine her as a small child trapped in a venerable woman's body, then perhaps it will be easier for you to accept her distorted perspective for her sake.  At the very least just validate her distorted perspective, while at the same time validate your own.  You know that you perspective is not disordered.  You don't have to insist that you are right when dealing with someone who is mentally disordered.

[Asa]

Thank you so much, schwing. Nothing new, which is good news. I admire and appreciate your ability to help break this down. There was a recommendation for a couple books that I placed holds on through the library. I enjoy it when I find them on audio because I like to create and keep busy, as I take in the audio. Kind of left brain, right brain. :-) 

Somewhere there was mention of emotional incest, which creeped me out because there has always been that going on with the alcoholic brother. He's lived about 10 of his 52 years away from home, at best, and those years of 'freedom' were wasted, literally, through drug and alcohol abuse. He was the one to first phone me and sternly ask why I hung up (which I did after stating I was hanging up, mom has a serious problem with being hung up on, and I sincerely know better than to do this). There's so much more, but we'll leave it that my other bro and I have wondered what is going on, and a couple close family friends have asked in the past as well. I have never heard the term, but it certainly fits.

Growing up I was always one of those happy giggly girls that likely annoyed and intrigued everyone with constant laughter and jokes. A couple years ago, after arriving home for a visit, mom pointed out I was developing a wrinkle between my brows. We will all get them someday, and I didn't care. She went on to say how I resemble my paternal grandmother and how her wrinkles gave her a worried appearance, and how she would "joke" behind my grandmother's back "whyyyyy... . ?" (in a whiny voice). This grandmother passed away when I was months old and I never knew her, but know she was a brilliant and celebrated artist. I was mortified she would insult this talented woman and have the audacity to tell me this story. This left me emotionally bereft the rest of my visit and I was badgered why I was no longer the happy girl, full of laughter, like I once was.

I want to be that girl. I slowly revert when I keep distance. However, there is the mandatory weekly phone call, with badgering for daily phone calls. I am able to get through a weekly call, and this one is done, so I'm free for a spell, with some damage control from my dear brother and likely some verbiage from me, eventually.

The readings and references are helpful throughout this site, and I am digging in.

Another side effect of all this, I am noticing, is that I am becoming very afraid of social interaction. I am becoming a hermit, afraid to go out, afraid of conversation, and knots tighten in my stomach when the phone rings. I use to be so inquisitive to explore and experience new things and events. Is there any help to change this?

Granted the desire to change is there, but change necessary is going to be akin to turning a freight liner around. It's going to take a lot of hard work and time. Almost daunting to think of all that lies ahead. Isn't it funny how such a small trigger changed the outlook of many months to come? Just like my dear neighbor who had a stroke. Months of rehab ahead.

[PrettyPlease]

there is the mandatory weekly phone call, with badgering for daily phone calls... . [snip]... . , and knots tighten in my stomach when the phone rings. I use to be so inquisitive to explore and experience new things and events. Is there any help to change this?

Hi Asa,

First my apology for my first post, where I was recommending you start a thread in this Board; I'd recently been reading in the 'New Members' board and thought I was answering a post there. If I'd realized where I was, I would have replied in more detail. But schwing did that, and at least twice as well as I would have, so it's a net gain. :-)

But I will add a couple of things: I just finished the book he recommended, "Understanding The Borderline Mother" by Lawson, and found many sections extremely valuable. It validated my experience and allowed me to see that I'm not alone in this situation, not responsible for my mother's disordered world view, and not required to live by her rules.

That is why I quoted your section above. The word 'mandatory' is a flag to me, and I think you'll find in many places -- the book, the site tools, and the board discussions -- that the shift from what she wants to what you want is an important element.

You may have found this already, but a good jumping off place for me was the "bpdfamily.com" workshop and the Stop the Bleeding and validation tools. They're phrased for a SO but I believe they can be useful even if the 'significant other' is a parent:

bpdfamily.com

The Validation part in particular will likely be useful if you're going to continue relating to your mother regularly:

COMMUNICATION: Validation - tools and techniques

If you decide -- later or now -- to sever your relationship with her, then a different set of tools would be more appropriate.

PP

[Asa]

I can not thank you both enough for getting me through this. I most definitely will be going through the readings. Guaranteed. I will be on Amazon to purchase that book, because it is so highly rated. Thank you again.

My dear bro phoned and coached me and got me propped up to make the phone call. He thought that since there was a thunderstorm, it was highly unlikely either would pick up the phone, and I could safely deliver a rehearsed message. Nope. The alcoholic bro answered. At least he was in a friendly mood. So I carefully relayed: "I'm sorry things got heated yesterday, I believe there were misunderstandings on both sides, and I hope we can work through this and get past it." Then he asked how I was, so I at least told him how upset I was about my dear neighbor, who is still in the ICU, and how he has always been so helpful and respectful toward me, and a genuinely decent neighbor.

Then he said mom wanted to get on the phone. My good bro coached me and I had a shot of tequila ready, not that I ever, with family history, feel that is the answer, but just for today a shot was, as the phone was transferred. So I relayed the message, and she offered no reciprocation, but accepted my apology, and said she demands respect. I responded, "likewise," and clamped my mouth shut. She defensively and unprovokedly said, "I don't even know your neighbor... . " Does that excuse dismissive behaviour toward someone I obviously care about, and who. I needed to talk about? I was clearly upset. I didn't say anything, though. She tried a couple more jabs that apparently I yell at the cats ( ? ) when she's talking (again, ?). No responsibility for her behaviour. She tried small talk and I just said I was doing housework the rest of the day (not seeking help from BPD family, thank you for helping me through this). She lost interest, and said to call when I find time again. I said, "you too." To which she reported an inane list of errands she had to do all week and that she would be busy; a relief.

That woman will fester this to her grave. But for peace in the family, I will never, ever, discuss anything meaningful in my life. The damage is too severe. Even relationships, I discussed with the good brother, that very minimal information is to be shared. He is finally in a good, healthy, long term relationship that could be marriage. None of us 3 siblings are married. Does this trigger any questions from anyone? My marriage was so micromanaged that I don't even know if it was a good one or if the reason for decline was legitimate. It likely could have been saved. I don't know anymore. And every single relationship since high school is still dissected and analyzed.

Eventually I would like to explore reasons why I date the people I do, but not today. I believe this background is enough basis to understand why I feel being completely alone is easier and healthier.

[PrettyPlease]

None of us 3 siblings are married. Does this trigger any questions from anyone? My marriage was so micromanaged that I don't even know if it was a good one or if the reason for decline was legitimate. It likely could have been saved. I don't know anymore. And every single relationship since high school is still dissected and analyzed.

I have one sibling. Neither of us married.

BPD is a disorder of the thought and emotion systems of the brain, and one of its main characteristics is that the pwBPD will need to live through other people to manage their own internal state. Normal people soothe themselves; pwBPD can't do this. The presenting problem of a non (person without BPD) who is with a pwBPD who has targeted them (and a parent with BPD almost always targets their children, though not all the children in the same way), is therefore often the complaint that they are being 'micromanaged' (or manipulated, or controlled, or deceived). The pwBPD is doing this not because of you. It has nothing to do with you. It's the way they regulate their own emotions (fear of abandonment, or other fears layered on top of that one).

Some nons can learn to deal with this; some can't. But the non (that's you, and me), needs to learn to accept that this need of the pwBPD is pathological. That we are entirely within our rights to take whatever action we need in order to have a fulfilling life.

We also need to learn that we can't change the pwBPD (occasionally they'll go into therapy voluntarily; most don't). We can only change ourselves and our own actions. But some of these changes will have significant effects on the overall situation.

PP

[Clearmind]

You are being heard Asa and like you I have a parent with BPD traits and have always dated Borderlines!

Childhood conditioning is just that – things that happened in our childhood where we were prescribed to obey because we were kids. There comes a time where we need to separate our childhood prescriptions from our adult emotions/thoughts.

Find out what prescriptions were prescribed and relinquish the ones that no longer fit.

- I learned to not ask for help.

- There was never any use for it; it never gained anything but shame and torment.

- I would take blame for things that were so unrealistically not my fault

- I would always try to listen and make peace,

- When people would say how thin I was, my mother was always thinner.

- I hadn't bothered showing my art until recently because I felt no one was really looking at it anyway

- isolation growing up, even reading all my mail, coming and going, monitoring every phone call, reading every journal

I pulled these lines in particular because they have shaped who you are today because of your childhood. Nothing bad about it Asa – it is what it is and it can be worked through.

People push that “not good enough” button and fall into a state of despair because as adults we are reliving our childhood conditioning.

In thinking about your childhood:

1.   What were you permitted to do? Stay at friends houses for days, go out at night really late

2.   What were you prescribed to do? Be nice to elders, don’t talk back, don’t shine, don’t ask for validation, not have needs, no privacy

You can be specific

So every time I misbehaved (c'mon, I was a child!), she would threaten to drop me off in an orphanage. A few times, she would offer to give me to strangers.

Wow, very hurtful Asa.

I grew up to be extremely independent, in case I were ever given away and didn't have anyone to take care of me,

Me too only my therapist translated it to “façade of strength”. It was for survival and I certainly didn’t thrive being “Miss Independent”

This is my conditioning from childhood. This is why I have dated borderlines and narcissists

Me too. My needs didn’t matter and I was conditioned to put others before me.

I said she would interrupt me when I was a child trying to talk on the phone, and please discuss the relevant issue at hand. Yes, it got heated. Yes, eventually I will have to apologize for this, too.

This is Little Asa speaking not Adult Asa!

You set a boundary – by then apologizing you are back tracking and negating the boundary for it only to happen again. Mom wont learn.

[okaythen]

"The pwBPD is doing this not because of you. It has nothing to do with you. It's the way they regulate their own emotions (fear of abandonment, or other fears layered on top of that one).

Some nons can learn to deal with this; some can't. But the non (that's you, and me), needs to learn to accept that this need of the pwBPD is pathological. That we are entirely within our rights to take whatever action we need in order to have a fulfilling life."

     ---This quote reminds me of my therapist hearing my story and out and out telling me I didn't owe her (Mom) a thing! Then he said I was like a tree growing up; I had been bent and grown into a certain direction by my parents. I think he was saying I couldn't see certain things clearly because of the way I was bent. But no contact hurts me too. It's not normal, is it? So I do this fake nominal contact small talk thing and try my darndest not to tell her anything that means a lot to me.

[deadradiance]

Asa, 

Humans are socially conditioned creatures.  Children even more profoundly so.  Just as YOU were conditioned by your mother to be devalued, she was conditioned by her upbringing to put herself first, put appearances first.  Its not rocket science.  I'm surprised there are some who debate the genetics/environment issue when it comes to personality disorders.  Then again, no I'm not surprised when you factor in WHO is touting the "It's genetics" side--its always the parents/siblings/family of origin of the personality disordered.  Never underestimate the ego of a dysfunctional person to cloud what is so plainly and simply obvious!

Personality disorders are passed on each generation by the way in the which the parents raise i.e. CONDITION their children. It is not genetic.

[deadradiance]

I understand all too well your dilemma.  Overcoming this kind of parental conditioning is a gargantuan task.  The messages and conditioning we receive as children is deeply, deeply imprinted and becomes the fabric of our personality.  That is why its so hard to overcome.  Also why they say some personality disorders (mainly the cluster Bs-BPD, Sociopath, Narcissists) can't be changed.  There is success with treatment with other personality disorders though.  And of course with those of you who do not have a pd but wish to overcome the conditioning received from abuse.  No matter what type of parent you had, whether they were an abusive BPD, a narcissistic parent, or a loving responsible parent, or parents who spoiled you rotton... . ALL parents condition their children by the way they treat them, the environment they provide, the messages they pass on.  The only ones who deny that obvious fact are the ones who didn't do a good job and refuse to be responsible for it.  In other words dysfunctional parents.

[Asa]

Couple of very interesting questions, Clear mind.

1. What was I permitted to do?  I (and my brothers) was kept on an extremely short leash. Overnighters to friends' homes was rare, and equally rare were any allowed to come over. Mom monopolized huge chunks of time, and would charm my friends. All correspondence was read, phone calls eaves-dropped. We lived in the country, yet no farm animals: once a dog, then later a cat. The nearest friend was about 1.5 miles away so little sense making a break for it when we were younger, and woe eternal if you tried anything as a teenager. School sports were allowed in the fall, but the torment of getting a ride home after was misery. It sounds like a joke, but I remember a few times wanting to go out to a basketball game (winter sport, so spectator only), only to be denied a ride home, and walking the roughly 2 miles, uphill, in the snow, in the dark. True story.  We had to always account for our whereabouts, which included stating you were going outside to play. Many times were responded with "no." Off to play in the woods? "No, stick around the house." 150 acres. Couldn't even go down in the lower part of the field where the house was. This was not someone you cared to cross. Only recently did I ever see the movie "Mommie Dearest," because it was first denied then I didn't think I could handle it. Rings true. I wanted to throw up.

2. The answers to what I was prescribed to do was exact. And cook dinners, including cooking the full course Thanksgiving meal in my teens. While studying, I was required to get her a glass of water when demanded, despite being in the middle of a chapter or writing an essay.

It goes on.

Moving 3000 miles away helped for quite some time. It was sickening to leave my father, but great relief to leave my mother. Sadly, Dad passed away 19 years ago. On his deathbed, when we were having long conversations together, we were once alone in the room, and he turned so deliberately toward me and pointedly looked me in the eyes and said, "I am so proud of you."  He almost as quickly reverted back to his near-coma state after that. I am positive there were many meanings in this statement, but in my heart I feel strongly about the one reference, and that is that I had the strength to leave, explore the world, and have a life. He was a highly decorated WWII veteran, 3 tours of duty, and yes, 22 years older than my mom, if anyone's trying to do some math. We were never allowed to know my mom's age until a few years ago when she had cancer.

Because of the age difference, and that first we were multimillionaires, then bankrupt, and Dad had to travel to "protect his investments," and Dad was rarely around, we were programmed to lie. I have recently seen a bank statement of my mom's, and there was no need for me to grow up wearing hand-me-downs and working my way through college. I have no grief with the experience, just the lies. We moved to the country when I was 7, and yes, I do remember the country club life and governesses in early years, but it wasn't until I was 15 and cleaning out a cabinet that I came upon a newspaper clipping about Dad's company going out of business. This is when I first began to realize I had no idea who I was or what my background was. The fear of my grandmother's 2nd husband was dismissed and I was told I don't remember so well, was telling stories, while in my first and second grade, my teachers always remarked what a memory I had. It's a wonder I had a nearly perfect GPA when I graduated. But in such isolation, and only 2 TV channels (anyone else remember those times?), there was little else to do but your homework. And there was no other option. My middle bro lapsed for a little while, and what he endured to regain grades! One of us was always the "bad child," and I dodged that one a lot. My oldest didn't. I wonder if that's why he got so deep into substance abuse? He tried to runaway a few times. Misery.

Enough dumping.

The comments from okay then and dead radiance raise the question in me: could I have picked up traits by this conditioning? Is that what people call "fleas by association?" Please let me never do to anyone what this woman has done to us. The 3 of us are childless, and not by specific choice, yet thankfully this reign of terror ends with us. I don't know any other family, although I've been wanting to search on Ancestry.com, but there's a fear of what I may dig up... . mostly on mom's side... .

Final note: I am excited to have found a copy of "Understanding the Borderline Mother" at a local bookstore, so it's time to dig into some serious reading! Is there a link where others may be reading it and we can share ideas? Or should I try to start a new thread of new readers? I have a feeling it's going to be difficult if not painful, so maybe it would be nice to check in?

[Asa]

Oh, and yes, it is humiliating, even disgraceful, to share my story, but living in silence and repeating the programming hasn't worked so well in my life.

So I'm hoping and praying for help and resources, and to finally stop living in fear and isolation.

And I'm not seeing that cutting ties will be a choice. I can't risk losing my good brother, and he will always be the middle child. The mediator. He's the only "real" family I have.

Thank you.

[Clearmind]

Oh, and yes, it is humiliating, even disgraceful, to share my story, but living in silence and repeating the programming hasn't worked so well in my life.

So I'm hoping and praying for help and resources, and to finally stop living in fear and isolation.

And I'm not seeing that cutting ties will be a choice. I can't risk losing my good brother, and he will always be the middle child. The mediator. He's the only "real" family I have.

Thank you.

You are amongst good company - we all get it.

_____hit

A whole world out there Asa that you were not permitted to explore. You were not permitted privacy or teenage needs around privacy. Moms needs over shadowed yours. Not respecting your privacy to contemplate you is such an invasion.  .

A child and teenage girl has needs which you were not afforded – its no doubt how you get involved with Borderlines – you were lead to believe your needs didn't matter.

"I am so proud of you." – oh you can bet Dad knew exactly what you endured and its wonderful you got these words from him. They must mean a lot.

Perfect GPA? – not at all surprised Asa – children of Borderlines tend to strive for a perfect education – we tend to give ourselves value by “doing”. Our worth is more often than not like reading a CV/resume – we are so much more than a resume – we need to dig down to find our value system.

We all have different coping mechanisms resulting from an invalidating childhood – substance abuse is only one. You could be right – Bro might be escaping.

__________

In writing this out has it become clearer to you where your faulty beliefs may lie and where you can begin to banish some of these thoughts instilled in you as a child? You are an adult now with adult privileges – guess what? – you are in charge now.

To set boundaries we first need to know what our values are. In thinking about you as adult Asa – without the childhood conditioning – what values do you want to live your life by? How are you with boundaries [they need to become your friend – they protect you]?

Wonderful book: Boundaries - Henry Cloud PhD, John Townsend PhD

The comments from okay then and dead radiance raise the question in me: could I have picked up traits by this conditioning? Is that what people call "fleas by association?" Please let me never do to anyone what this woman has done to us. The 3 of us are childless, and not by specific choice, yet thankfully this reign of terror ends with us. I don't know any other family, although I've been wanting to search on Ancestry.com, but there's a fear of what I may dig up... . mostly on mom's side... .

The mere fact you are questioning your Mom and her motives is testament to the clarity you have as an adult.

Do you have fleas? Yes possibly – I do/did – unlike a person with BPD you will be just fine – you will heal – you are no longer in denial about what you endured and this is the first step in healing – acknowledging the abuse you received. Its painful.

Final note: I am excited to have found a copy of "Understanding the Borderline Mother" at a local bookstore, so it's time to dig into some serious reading! Is there a link where others may be reading it and we can share ideas? Or should I try to start a new thread of new readers? I have a feeling it's going to be difficult if not painful, so maybe it would be nice to check in?

Feel free to add to this one: Understanding the Borderline Mother

[ScarletOlive]

Asa,

I'm so sorry you were told you would be left with strangers or in an orphanage. That's really horrible, and no child should ever hear that.    You're not alone here. Many of us (me included) became independent overachievers to compensate for our dysfunctional upbringing. It's a normal response to abnormal circumstances. I relate to much that you said - my older brother was the bad child and ran away lots too. We all react differently, but there are usually patterns to how we react.

Most of us have fleas. I certainly did and do.  It's okay. When you're a child, you learn by example, and so if our parents show us a bad example, we learn that. As adults though, the cool thing is we have the opportunity to change that. You moved away, joined here, and are looking at the dysfunction. That is huge. It means you have the opportunity to change things. I'm not sure if you've been able to check out the Survivor's Guide in the side panel, but it may help you as you face these tough memories. Keep posting and sharing. We're here for you, and glad you have joined our ranks.

Also, Understanding the Borderline Mother is a great book. You can certainly start a thread on it. I think others on here would benefit greatly. Sending you lots of caring and support.

[Asa]

Into the book, what line grabbed me deeply is "Like Alice who confided in the Cheshire Cat, children of borderlines may learn to trust a pet more than their own mother."

The first family pet growing up was a parakeet. Just one, kept in his cage, occasionally let out to fly around the house, which captivated me as a young child. Since the bird was also hungry for attention and connection, I found it an attentive listener, and spent hours on a stool next to its cage, telling it everything. Its cocked head, and how it would siddle up on the perch made me feel like it really wanted to hear me and know what I was saying; it had all the mannerisms of truly listening, paying attention to my heart stories.

When the dear bird passed away we had a dog briefly, who died early of a form of bone cancer. About a year later, we were given a cat, who lived to be 22, and made the rounds amongst the kids and was also a dear friend.

I believe I hold this true in adult life that my pets are my truest companions. I have little success in romantic relationships, and few deep friend-connections. I feel I can and do become a hermit often and am grateful for the companionship of my animals. I talk to the birds and deer that hang out on my property. The deer walk away but don't run anymore, well, the yearlings do, but eventually they settle down.

What on earth is going on? And all the reference to Alice in Wonderland... . I recently watched the Johny Depp version of Alice, and had wonderful, deep, intelligent conversations with my estranged bf about the movie. I miss that conversational connection with him, and wish I could talk to him about these things and the book. I regret it is highly likely he had an NPD/BPD/alcoholic mother and needs and could use some of the resources I have jumped into... . but I am completely aware that helping doesn't help, and I can exhibit codependency too much.

I think everyone is codependent and as a society, we need codependency, otherwise we would all be hermits on separate islands. That word is used in a negative way. I think the reference is that codependency can get out of control, and that is the problem. So my codependency can be out of control at times. I go the other way and can be perfectly happy in a cardboard box, so to speak, with no contact at all. It's that trait that scares me more than codependency: dismissing the need for contact and connection.

No, I will never, ever neglect the animals. I hope you get the idea, here... .  

So I acknowledge I am back in hermit stage, reading and learning. For now, I am happy to feel the need to check in here, on the boards, because there is some semblance of connection, even though I am typing on an electronic device. There are humans at the other side of this

And I hope, maybe later this week, to write a thread on the bf situation. I keep thinking I begin dating men not of the same type, as they are all quite different, but the relationships all fail, and it is quite painful. In light of what I just mentioned above, I question whether that "type" is the type of man I am uniquely trained to connect with. If I can't sort out the past, acknowledge the present, how can I ever believe in a future? Am I doomed to keep reliving the past? Oh that thought leaves me in complete confusion, so I will leave that until later when I can focus. I miss him and still care for him, and I truly feel if he wants to spend time with me, he would reestablish communication. Believe me, I do understand how frightening feeling connected can be, when you've trained yourself to be independent, and happy enough alone.

Yikes! I can ramble! Sorry, but thank you all for your help, insights, and connection.

[Asa]

I'm still reading through "Understanding the Borderline Mother," and it is very difficult. I read the first 2 chapters, then jumped to the Queen, which is the dominant description of my mother. Growing up, prior to ever knowing what BPD was, I sometimes considered my mother as a lost waif, because she would wander around, when we were out in public, or doing errands, and look bewildered, with a weird child-like smile like a lost child looking for their mother. The sweet smile would captivate someone, who would engage in conversation with her, and she would go on for unbearably long conversations, while the rest of the family would wait, patiently (there would be a blow-up if we were impatient). Transportation was missed, opportunities lost; I was invited to participate in a horse show, and that wonderful opportunity was lost.

About 10 years ago I was cleaning out what I thought was the last of my childhood belongings (mom and the oldest brother somehow would always find more, and I would occasionally re-sort things I felt positive were thrown out for good), and I found a list I made as a teenager, of all mom's excuses and reasons why we couldn't go outside to play (we lived on 150 acres!), and why our friends couldn't come over to play. I read it together with my oldest brother and we both felt violent sick. He was so emotionally upset to revisit these things, I burned that paper. For learning purposes now, I wish I hadn't done that. I can't, or won't remember these things now.

I blocked many things from my memory. Even during my teen years and early college, I was blocking memories to a point it became dangerous. Once, I "woke" from a blocked period and found myself crossing a busy street, immanently avoiding being hit by a car. Several times I was hooked up to EEG tests, doctors thinking I had a form of epilepsy, but now I believe this was just a result of enduring a painful event. I was not doing drugs, which became the silent glances among doctors and mom when I would report these black-outs. These episodes have stopped since I moved away. But in the last week or so, I've been so ridiculously tired, sleeping up to 12 hours a day, and feeling like I'm in a half-coma state.

I've mentioned elsewhere that I tend to be quite happy on my own at this point, and with my cats (oh, how many of us can write a book titled How I Became a Crazy Cat Lady?), and I'm about to jump back to the chapters on the waif and the hermit, and am so scared of using the term hermit to describe the happier times of my life at this point in time. What have I become? I used to be so social, full of laughter, curiosity, and ready to explore the world.

At any rate, this stuff is scary, and does the book show you how to reintegrate and live a normal life? Six months ago I was happy, sharing good times with my now-exiled bf, brief conversations with the family at home, even questioning if I could take early retirement and move home and build a house on the property, and just pursue art. Now I want to move to New Zealand. Is that far enough away?

[schwing]

Hi Asa,

I'm still reading through "Understanding the Borderline Mother," and it is very difficult.

I remember the first time I read the book, I didn't really get a large chunk of it.  Years later, much of what I read which I didn't understand now rings true.  Let me know which parts you find difficult and I'll try to simply the ideas for you, in case you might find that helpful.

I read the first 2 chapters, then jumped to the Queen, which is the dominant description of my mother. Growing up, prior to ever knowing what BPD was, I sometimes considered my mother as a lost waif, because she would wander around, when we were out in public, or doing errands, and look bewildered, with a weird child-like smile like a lost child looking for their mother.

I don't expect people with BPD (pwBPD) to rigidly fit into any of those archetypes.  If anything, I think which archetype they "use" depends upon with whom they are interacting.  When I was young, my uBPD mother behaved mostly like a waif when interacting with me.  But in other contexts she can behave like a hermit or queen, rarely have I ever seen witch-like behavior.

... . I found a list I made as a teenager, of all mom's excuses and reasons why we couldn't go outside to play (we lived on 150 acres!), and why our friends couldn't come over to play. I read it together with my oldest brother and we both felt violent sick. He was so emotionally upset to revisit these things, I burned that paper. For learning purposes now, I wish I hadn't done that. I can't, or won't remember these things now.

That behavior sounds hermit-like, i.e., life is too dangerous.  And choosing to live on a 150 acre property sounds very isolating.

I blocked many things from my memory. Even during my teen years and early college, I was blocking memories to a point it became dangerous. Once, I "woke" from a blocked period and found myself crossing a busy street, immanently avoiding being hit by a car. Several times I was hooked up to EEG tests, doctors thinking I had a form of epilepsy, but now I believe this was just a result of enduring a painful event. I was not doing drugs, which became the silent glances among doctors and mom when I would report these black-outs. These episodes have stopped since I moved away. But in the last week or so, I've been so ridiculously tired, sleeping up to 12 hours a day, and feeling like I'm in a half-coma state.

I have had many periods in my life when I felt overwhelmed by psychosomatic symptoms; i.e., my emotional/mental pain was so great (and I was in such denial of it) that my body was producing many significant symptoms such as insomnia, gastro-intestinal disruptions, hypersomnia, etc... . I had a nervous break down in college (just a few years after being away from home).

Dissociation (perhaps such as your black outs) can be a coping mechanism for significant emotional pain.

I've mentioned elsewhere that I tend to be quite happy on my own at this point, and with my cats (oh, how many of us can write a book titled How I Became a Crazy Cat Lady?), and I'm about to jump back to the chapters on the waif and the hermit, and am so scared of using the term hermit to describe the happier times of my life at this point in time. What have I become? I used to be so social, full of laughter, curiosity, and ready to explore the world.

Maybe you are happier on your own.  And maybe you've been conditioned most of your life to expect/have difficult social interactions beyond your immediate family.  It's your choice whether or not you wish you expand your life beyond what you know is comfortable.  You may find it unexpectedly rewarding.  But it is always worthwhile to confront your fears.

At any rate, this stuff is scary, and does the book show you how to reintegrate and live a normal life?

I don't believe this is in the scope of this book.  There might be a chapter towards the end that covers "recovery" from such a childhood.  But for this topic you might be better served by other books written for the children of personality disordered parents and how to overcome the problems associated.

Six months ago I was happy, sharing good times with my now-exiled bf, brief conversations with the family at home, even questioning if I could take early retirement and move home and build a house on the property, and just pursue art. Now I want to move to New Zealand. Is that far enough away?

One's external environment is only one part of what it takes to cultivate one's happiness, another big chunk is one's internal "environment" so to speak.

Best wishes, Schwing

[Asa]

Thank you so much, schwing. If you have any recommendations for some books on recovering from such a childhood, it would be most appreciated. Just a couple. Or one; keeping it simple. There are so many books recommended that it's getting hard to narrow choices at the moment. Dang, so much to go through right now, and I'm only finally learning about this childhood stuff.

All these memories were triggered by reports from my sane brother, the bf disappearing from my life, recognizing how toxic a long-term friendship had been and stepping away from it, and finally, mom's outburst. A perfect storm.

It's hard, but I guess it's time to confront it. Hopefully learn to support healthy friendships and learn how to integrate family without more harm.

I'll get there. Hope isn't dead.

The T isn't available for a few weeks, and she's good, so I don't want a different one. It's hard to find one who can sort through these topics. So reading and checking in here are quite helpful for now.

[Sola Gratia]

Oh, I can so relate!  My mom would just leave when she got too crazy, for a few hours, or overnight, and we never talked about it.  I was married for 4 years, have one daughter, moved 1500 miles away, and came back after 3 years of hearing the sadness in my Dads voice.  But, when I came back, it really started up, and my dad offered counseling to both of us.  Of course, there was nothing wrong with her, but I went.  I didn't get the Bdp thing then, but my youngest sister went to a therapist later, and once both my sisters and I went to see her together, and she diagnosed the Bdp.  I've read a lot about it and it helps.  I have minimal contact with her and like you said, don't tell her much of consequence.  my dad became an alcoholic, both my sisters over eat, and I very nearly became an alcoholic.  I live alone with three cats who are very dear companions.  And I rarely date, after years of attracting the wrong men who were not capable of meeting my needs.  I don't know what a healthy relationship looks like.  She used to rage at me so much and for so long that I would disassociate, go out of body.  As the oldest I got a lot of it, but all three of us were verbally abused regularly, and there was some physical abuse.  She is great at hiding it though, and most people would never guess... .  She has completely fooled my son-in- law and my bil, my youngest sister never married.  I'm the bad daughter in their eyes.  But, my sisters and I are close, and do talk about her and our lack of healthy relationships with mom and others.  

Once she was raging at my middle sister and she refused to cry, and asked mom why she was doing it.  Mom told her that she wanted her to hurt as much as she did.  Whew!   She told me once that she knew what it was like to bury a parent that you had I'll feelings toward, and I replied tht I'd rather not do that, but she doesn't want to admit anything.  Has no recollection of the verbal abuse.  I think she was probably having out of body experiences during those... .  Once as a preteen, she'd been raging at all three of us, saying that dad worked so hard and we didn't appreciate it, and he'd probably die of a heat attack, the phone rang.  She answered it sweet as pie, and I thought there's something really wrong with that!  It isn't normal!  Then she turned back to us and said, why are you crying?  Another time, one evening she gave us all medicine from the same bottle, when we hadn't been to the dr, and I thought, she's trying to kill us... .  Very calm and obedient, just my reality at that time.  

What really scares me now is that I see some of mom in my dsughters dealings with my grandbabies.  Fortunately we have a great relationship, so I can point out what I saw after a few days, gently, and give her the "victim's" point of view.  And she knows my history, so she is willing to listen.  I know there were times when I was a terrible mother, I have some bad memories.  I did though, apologize and ask her forgiveness, which was very healing for both of us.  What I wouldn't give for that same interaction with mom... .  But I know she can't and won't.  She is incapable.  When I was 10, we moved to a new home, with a new school and new friends.  I started going to church with them, and I could walk there, so it became a sanctuary for me until I went away to college.

[dnagrl]

Asa, Sole Gratia and everyone else that posted on this thread: I feel like we are all sisters from the same crazy parent. I am new here and I am amazed that there are other people out there like me, who rely on companionship of pets, remained childless to stop the mental illness, agonize at going NC with their BPD parents and have loner type (as you say, 'hermit' tendencies and straight A student types. I am all of those. I feel like I should be drinking every day. I feel like other people don't understand me. The one thing I didn't do is pick the wrong men (man). I have one man, married 25 years and he has had it forever with my father's antics. My father hates him and now that its clear he can't break us up, he won't abide my husband's presence. How screwed up is that?

I have learned much from your story on this thread, Asa. You are brave to tell it so frankly. Since I am just coming to grips with my figuring out that my father has been BPD his whole life  (with narcissistic traits), and my dead mother was a narcissist as well, both alcoholics, I don't have any great advice or tips for you like the moderators did. I am impressed you can soldier on with the mandatory phone calls. I cannot do the same any more with my BPD parent. Let us know how it all resolves- hugs.

[Sola Gratia]

Dnagirl, yes, sisters from the same crazy parent!  Just talked to a co-worker today about the fact that my mom didn't acknowledge my birthday last week.  When I said BPD, she knew and said her mom was too.  It seems all too common.  I am moving towards the numb stage, I've lived with so much anger and pain and sadness... .   I've learned not to expect anything from her, she only calls when she needs my time and attention.  We will get better, together!

[Breathing new air]

(Into the book, what line grabbed me deeply is "Like Alice who confided in the Cheshire Cat, children of borderlines may learn to trust a pet more than their own mother."


I have been following this thread and reading for the last few days. So much is so true.  I will tell you that my horse was more of a friend to me than anyone or thing growing up. She was my only confidant.  How do you tell anyone anyone in a normal family what is going on with your house and what you know about life. They would never believe. Not to mention I was raised not to trust the system. I remember being told by Mom that if DHS ever came in they would take us away from her. Because of my dad's actions of course. He was always the bad guy. But I feel if I had not had the animals I would not have survived growing up. I know that. We had dogs and horses. Mom actually still treats them better than she did use kids. Although even those things she does not treat as well now.


(I think everyone is codependent and as a society, we need codependency, otherwise we would all be hermits on separate islands. That word is used in a negative way. I think the reference is that codependency can get out of control, and that is the problem. So my codependency can be out of control at times. I go the other way and can be perfectly happy in a cardboard box, so to speak, with no contact at all. It's that trait that scares me more than codependency: dismissing the need for contact and connection.

No, I will never, ever neglect the animals. I hope you get the idea, here... .   )

 


Codependency gets a bad rap. I think that we are "codependent" because to an extent biologically we are social creatures. That was an adaption to survival. But that does not mean we need to loose ourselves in another person and bury all of our needs. That is the problem.  Boundaries were not even in our vocab growing up except when convenient for mom.  We all have so much to give. We learned skills that can help others. But first we need to find out who we are and what we want. That has been the hardest question for me.  The world feels like it is opening up, but it is scary because the "real and normal world" I am entering now. I did not know even existed.

ASA, I too have been struggling with the realities of what was expected of me and what was said  and my childhood in general.  I endured so many things and have spent a good portion of my adult life learning to deal with them. The blocked memories started surfacing for my at about 20 years old. I have recovered many, both good and bad from childhood. But the hardest thing to deal with has been my relationship with mom and the dynamics that I thought were normal were so abnormal. I find that with my daughter, who is now 15, I can't pull on what was normal for me but have to look around and read. She is a normal teen. But funny my mom keeps telling me how selfish and self centered she is. I do use outside validation to help me learn normal. My T does a great job of helping me navigate the memories and triggers and general adjustments I am having to do to find me. I can't wait to meet myself as I emerging. You will find how you are. I think of it as we are butterflies. We were caterpillars who had to form our cocoon to survive. Now life is safe enough for us to begin to emerge from the darkness of our upbringing to find a new way.  In having the courage to do this and understand that this is not normal. You can never be like your mother. That has been my fear too. I think it is all of our fears.  But you are not.   The fact that you think about that and care sets you apart.