Lack of core values

[slimmiller]

Had a pretty good 'aha' moment this morning.

Trying to coparent with me exBPD is a sheer hell at times. Had a big talk/argument about a week ago. Actually more like one of the usual circular conversation that shes an expert at.

Fast forward to yesterday, she took the kids and went to an activity and blatantly did what I had told her was not acceptable and that we would need to talk about it further. Long story short, it made me profoundly sad in one way because I came to a realization.

She does not have any real core values. Arguing with her and promises mean absolutely nothing. Maybe I knew that but am just now realising it.

Anyone else ever feel that sentiment?

[Rubies]

I realized that years before out divorce.  Everything was about contorted to suit his whims.  Remember Fracture Fairytales?  BPDxh did Twisted Scriptures.

Don't get sucked into trying to reason with them.  Even when they agree with you, they will walk away and do as they please as if the conversation never happened, then twist it into how you were wrong.  They won, Hahahaha.   As long as you have conversations with them, they are in control of your chain.  YANK!

[mamachelle]

slimmiller,

Just curious, what was the activity that she took them to? Did it have something to do with the argument?

I find that people with PD's sometimes have very strong core values. However they can go off center or off core and then they might go against their core. Not sure if this makes sense but I guess I find that BPD folk are like everyone else with beliefs and convictions and morals. I know I waver from my core values and question myself quite often. I think people with PD's and other mental illness have a harder time with that inner filter or inner mechanism which can help them stay true to their values. I am not excusing -- but just my experience has been that often people with BPD are even more vocal and more rigid in their expression of 'core values' than others in my life. Sometimes this could be a political or religious belief. Black/white thinking. Other times it is a parenting idea. That is why it is confusing when they contradict themselves in their behaviors and go against or change the 'core value'.

For example, my BPDexh put a big emphasis on safety and car seats. Then he would sometimes take my DD around in a car with no seatbelt for one of them. Even though his heart was in the right place he was the victim because he could not afford a car with all the seat belts in the back and so then it was up to God to make sure the kiddos would be ok.

With BPDbioMom she has a hard time saying No to her kids. So, if her sons wanted to watch a violent movie even though it was against her beliefs she might turn the other way because it was too hard for her to have to listen to the kids complain.

I think it's best as Rubies says to not engage in a conversation about beliefs but about boundaries. With the seat belts I set a boundary and said, ok BPDdad, you take the kids on public transportation if you don't have a seat belt for them.

With the violent movies, it's a matter of DH talking with BioMom and telling her -- hey SS9 is having nightmares- can you monitor the movies. Also telling SS9 not to watch them because it causes issues for him.

As much as you can, helping the kids to monitor themselves when with the other parent will help. My DD told me there were no seatbelts so I could talk to their Dad. My step kids told us mom let them watch the movies and admitted it was giving them nightmares.

Hope this helps.

mamachelle

[slimmiller]

Thank You all!

The disagreement was about the kids meeting the latest 'soul mate'. I told her that the kids should not be meeting guys willy nilly. She had always lamented her ex (ss14s dad) bringing dates into his life on a whim and often and different ones. But now she just figures since her latest is 'serious' that its okay. Its like she intends to finally make things legit with her sleeping around I think.

I dont really care what she does in her personal life. I find too much downright repulsive knowing what I know that she doesnet know I know. But the fact also that we are trying to make a 'nesting' arrangement with the kids so the kids will need to be informed what is really going on. My stipulation and rule was that if we do that arrangement (shes in school and has no means of having a house right now to accomadate the 4 kids) that no other person will enter into that arragement openly till things are better established.

That and coupled with the fact I had told her in order for someone to enter into the kids life, we would at least inform the other and or let the other meet the person first. After I confronted her and told her I know the the kids probably already met him, she said yes. I said why she told me its none of my business to which I disagree.

The fact the ss14 is , she is 33, Im 41 and the new flame is 23 and a foreign exchange student that is a career student (like her) does not seem to be a concern to her. The sheer lack of logic is typical of her.

Point is my concern is what it will do to the kids. Introducing that sort of disfunction into their lifes will skew their moral compass.

She has no moral decency or  core moral value for me to even appeal to. And believe me, I have tried.

It was however also a turning piont. The kids (ss14 s 11, d9 and d7) all came home and had a look of not sure what on their face. Partially of pleading to me like they betrayed me in a sense because none of them are oblivious to mommies craziness

[slimmiller]

I think it's best as Rubies says to not engage in a conversation about beliefs but about boundaries. With the seat belts I set a boundary and said, ok BPDdad, you take the kids on public transportation if you don't have a seat belt for them.

That is more and more my thought. The logical mind you can reach on a level where there can be a conscensus on issues etc. Not the (at least my ex) BPD. Talking to her, try as I might, there is no moral baseline to appeal to. Its pointless and only leads to yet another emotionally draining circular argument.

I see what you mean about the whole deep beleive thing in a way. Mine too was adamant about car seats. She has a very deep conviction of having to over cook meat (to the point I can even eat it, its so damn bland) but I take that as more of an obsession then an actual value... .

It appears to be a value at least. Her initial religious believe when I met her was of a very staunch believer in Mormonism. She upheld all the creeds (which led to arguments as I was not into it and questioned things although not in a way to take it from her) she worked her way into the upper echelons of the church in order to be one of the 'chosen' ones and be able to be afforderd all the 'blessing' reverved for only the Elite. According to what she believed in then, her lifestyle now (since she has been blessed by the church with all the knowledge reserved for the chosen few) she is going to Hell and there is no way the church would ever full forgive her for her transgressions if she chose to be honest with them about it. Basically according to what she upheld, she is one of the lowest with the sleeping around, dismantleing of a family, infidelity etc and mostly because she has made special commitments and promises to uphold those things more then the average person.

And yet today she finds absolutely none of that even remotely usefull because her religious believe does not uphold her actions so she basicy flushed it down the toilet.

So maybe she does have strong values but like a lover, has the ability to just discard it when it no longer becomes usefull to what she needs at the moment ? Her strong religious believes when I met her, allowed me to overlook the signs of her condition from the start because there was some sort of glue that held her to a standard but since she discarded that, there is nothing to reach any more

[singlemom]

You might also want to consider that she may well have morals and values, but that they are not the same as yours.  I am very bothered by the way you keep saying "I had told her this" and "she did what I told her was unacceptable".  Where is the "we had agreed that... . "?

I will tell you that I would *never* agree to allow my ex to meet my boyfriends first.  And if you met hers and didn't like the guy, then what?  Do you have veto power over who she dates?  Unless he's a drug user, pedophile or child beater, or has committed crimes more serious than being younger than her, you really have no right to have a say.

And saying "she didn't do what I told her to" has no place whatsoever when talking about an ex.

[slimmiller]

You might also want to consider that she may well have morals and values, but that they are not the same as yours.  I am very bothered by the way you keep saying "I had told her this" and "she did what I told her was unacceptable".  Where is the "we had agreed that... . "?

Actually the answer to that I did not clarify above anywhere. The plan 'we' had was probably more her plan from the beginning when she exited the marriage. We would (according to her) make joint decisions and or discuss anything involving the kids but now she is the one telling me its none of my business. And yes this was to include who is involved in their lives as far as relationships go. I do not have veto power nor do I want that. My only thing was is that I am trying to go by what agreement we already had and she wants to deviate from hence my thought that her core values have shifted?

As for her morals and values, I m sure she would disagree and say she does have them. The main difference is that compared to what I look at as morals and values does not mean anything to her and hers have certainly shifted to a degree.

Also the fact that we have a nesting arrangement and we had agreed from the beginning that our lovers if there is one, will have to respect that and we would keep that away from the 'family' home. It takes away from the 'safe family environment' that i would like my children to have as they are young. (our youngest is 7)

With her reckless dating and her track record I would have felt better if she could stay within her own boundaries. She has only been seeing the latest one a few month. Not exaclt staple for the kids imho

Maybe I m still just trying to make logic out of her illogical mind

[thisyoungdad]

I have been realizing this more in the recent months and at first was devastated because we have a 3 year old little girl and to realize her mother was incapable of keeping promises, of being trustworthy, of doing what is best for our daughter etc (all related to core values) it crushes me because our little girl adores her mom. I just don't want to watch her little heart get broken as she realizes how mom is. Last weekend may have been the first little taste of that where a promise had been made about all three of us going (separately) with friends on a camping trip. We had planned it for a year and days before the soon to be ex tells me that I was not allowed to go. Separate story but our little girl was devastated and even told her mom she wanted me there. She told us she missed me there just yesterday. It didn't seem to even phase the ex at the time although later but before they went she did tell me she felt guilty that I wasn't going. Since she can't actually control me I had decided given the level of hostility it was best not to go but I was hurt so much for my daughter. Today she called me screaming at me and then justified her sleeping around by the fact we started sleeping together when she was still married or early stages of divorce. When I told her that yes we had and I regret it and would never do it again she got more angry and hostile. We have discussed this numerous times how I feel about what we did and how I wouldn't do it again because it really went against my morals. I don't know if she lacks morals or just the moral strength to follow through with them at times.

[slimmiller]

thisyoungdad,

I feel your pain in seeing it in the kids eyes... . :'(  That is my main emphasis as a father is to maintain as much sanity as I can for the kids sake.

I have discovered the main thing that I can do is talk to the kids and allow them to voice their concerns and let them know I understand. But also say I cant always change it. I think the kids knowing they have someone to talk to and that that person is safe means a lot to them.

I have read ':)ivorce Poisen' and would highly recommend it. Its a very fine line to keep from having the kid on one side or the other. Nuetrality on your side is extremely important.

Yours being three makes it more difficult to be able to explain to her in ways for her to understand. You will be surprised though how soon she will see the contrasting difference in her mother and you as you maintain your role and stay on an even keel as a parent. Granted her mom will do everything she can at times to thwart that (if she is like mine). 

My youngest is 7 and up till the split and even after she was a complete mommies girl. Not anymore. I have to almost force her to go with her mother the little bit her mother even does anything with her. She even told me recently to call her mother by her first name, not mommie. She said that is too weird... . :'(

My thought is that even the kids will start to see it. (The shifting morals and values)

I m curious on how much others have seen this

[Rubies]

Yes, they eventually see it, they suffer the betrayal of trust and learn what the BPD parent is about.   We can't protect them from that and it hurts like hell.  That is the price we pay for getting tangled and procreating with these people.

Our job is to be their Safe Parent, provide the stability and Safe Haven, never violate their trust, and never, EVER invalidate their feelings with stupid comments like, "but they love you have your best interest at heart."  Youngest DD says  statements like that make her feel ICK and to not trust the people making them.  She doesn't trust her adult siblings now.

Our biggest responsibility to our children is to set good examples of dealing with BPDs in our lives.  Disengage and detach, don't get sucked into circular arguments, and don't try to change their stripes into spots.  Provide a therapist for your kids to help deal with stuff that they believe will overwhelm you.

[thisyoungdad]

slim- I just got that book from amazon, it arrived last week. I have not really had a chance to read much of it yet but I am hoping it is as good as people say it is. Of course sucks to even have to buy it but that is the consequence as you said for procreating with someone who has such a disorder.

It is exhausting trying to be the safe parent constantly. Of course I would want that anyway but knowing that mom is not likely to provide that almost adds more pressure in a way or at least makes it more important. Thankfully I have some good friends in similar situations so we can rely on each other for help and encouragement.

[david]

The circular arguements become exhausting after a while. I only communicate through email. Ex will bring something up that pertains to the kids. I used to try to discuss it with her in an email. Kept my email to 3 to 5 sentences as best I could. Once they get over 3 responses I find she goes back to the first email and starts over. At first I used to tell her to scroll down to the beginning of the email and she will see this was already discussed. That led to a rage. She would even capitalize parts when she was yelling. Now I just stop replying.

Her parenting style is to have no real consistent style. This confuses our two boys since they never know what she will do. They learned to avoid her when with her. Oftentimes the best thing I can do for them is to listen and validate.

I have come to realize that when we were together we oftentimes came to the same conclusions. She finished my sentences so often I was amazed. I now think she was just very well tuned into my thinking and was able to mimic. I don't think she ever really believed anything she was saying or doing. With the physical distance of email she can not read my body language so her responses are all over the place. I believe it to be more of an emotional response then something thought out hence the lack of core values. From what I was told her childhood was extremely chaotic and I guess she learned how to cope in that environment and never established a true self.

[DreamGirl]

Did she display this kind of meet and greet with the boyfriends while you were dating? How long was it before you were introduced to your SS14?

In my experience, nesting arrangements need to be very explicit as far as the rules and boundaries... . right down to allowable decorating.  Otherwise, it won't work. Too much intertwining of two people who don't want to be married to each other anymore.  

Point is my concern is what it will do to the kids. Introducing that sort of disfunction into their lifes will skew their moral compass.

She has no moral decency or  core moral value for me to even appeal to. And believe me, I have tried.

You're afraid for your kiddos. It's what makes us so angry in these situations. Fear.

My thoughts and experiences on this... .

You can't change her moral compass, her values, or her scale of decency ~ and trying to change that which you have no control over will get you all riled up, each and every time.

You can't change who she is at 33 - only she can do that and she doesn't want to. No more then can she dictate to you who and when you are allowed to date and introduce your children to. If my husband's ex-wife had a say in such things - I would not be sitting here typing these very words to you. No woman would. No one is good enough for her babies.

Have you met the guy? Is he nice? Is he good with the kids? Do the kids like him?

Those are the important questions really. Do the kiddos think he's OK?

My stepdaughters have been exposed to at least a dozen boyfriends in the last 9 years. They've lived with four, including the last one she just moved in with after dating a little over a year. It's just how she rolls. The lessons they've learned from those experiences are pretty invaluable really - being that they have learned how they don't want to live.

All three of them are striving for financial and emotional independence so they will never have to depend on a boyfriend/husband the way their mom does. They've all been evicted from the homes of each and every boyfriend (and one husband) and had to watch as their mom struggle to get back on her feet. They've watched her place a lot of her self worth in the hands of whoever she is dating at any given time. They don't like it. They want more.

slimmiller, say what you will and strive to control what you wish, but the bottom line is that she is who she is. You couldn't mold her to fit who you wanted her to be during the marrriage and you certainly can't after the marriage is over.  

So, you set the example. Let your kids watch your example. Let them decide what feels right and what life they want to lead.

Kids tend to be drawn to structure and the value system that includes self-respect and as you put it, decency. That's what you feed - their self worth and their love of themselves.

The rest simply falls into place... .  

[slimmiller]

Did she display this kind of meet and greet with the boyfriends while you were dating? How long was it before you were introduced to your SS14?

In my experience, nesting arrangements need to be very explicit as far as the rules and boundaries... . right down to allowable decorating.  Otherwise, it won't work. Too much intertwining of two people who don't want to be married to each other anymore.  

You're afraid for your kiddos. It's what makes us so angry in these situations. Fear.

My thoughts and experiences on this... .

You can't change her moral compass, her values, or her scale of decency ~ and trying to change that which you have no control over will get you all riled up, each and every time.


Have you met the guy? Is he nice? Is he good with the kids? Do the kids like him?

Those are the important questions really. Do the kiddos think he's OK?

My stepdaughters have been exposed to at least a dozen boyfriends in the last 9 years. They've lived with four, including the last one she just moved in with after dating a little over a year. It's just how she rolls. The lessons they've learned from those experiences are pretty invaluable really - being that they have learned how they don't want to live.

All three of them are striving for financial and emotional independence so they will never have to depend on a boyfriend/husband the way their mom does. They've all been evicted from the homes of each and every boyfriend (and one husband) and had to watch as their mom struggle to get back on her feet. They've watched her place a lot of her self worth in the hands of whoever she is dating at any given time. They don't like it. They want more.

slimmiller, say what you will and strive to control what you wish, but the bottom line is that she is who she is. You couldn't mold her to fit who you wanted her to be during the marrriage and you certainly can't after the marriage is over.  

So, you set the example. Let your kids watch your example. Let them decide what feels right and what life they want to lead.

Kids tend to be drawn to structure and the value system that includes self-respect and as you put it, decency. That's what you feed - their self worth and their love of themselves.

The rest simply falls into place... .  

Thank You Dreamgirl! I appreciate your well thought response and you confirm several things for me!

As for other boufriends while we were dating. We met and from day one it was just US . Until the cheating started. There was no healthy dating in hindsight

I met ss14 when he was just a baby. He sees his dad but I m the one that was alwayS there for him. Even when mommy was running and triangulating and cheating , I was the one that was taking him to sporting events, his friends , activities

I totally agree with being the one that provides the example of stability  as you mentioned. So far that has been working pretty well. The kids including our d7 even points out things about the situation thats crazy. Ironically she was mommies girl but now even says its good or okay when mommy is not around. They all know its more stable and normal when mommy is gone.

I have not met him . The kids have 'after' I voiced my concerns including the argument that if we want to do the nesting arrangement, others (lovers) need to be kept away from the family home IF the kids are there untill we both feel comfortable with the other partner and the kids have been told and understand the situation, then they can let us know how they feel about on or the other introducing the person into the family dynamic. Granted if there was a home for each of the parents fulltime then this would not even be a point of discussion. I think she basically did this anyways just to see how far she could push the boundaries. I did not fight her after


Both my girls later told me that 'mommy was kissing... . ' then they said the bfs name. And then, 'but there are no Japaneses people in our family'. (He is a Japanese exchange student half my age). So they see the disfunction and are trying to grapple with the un-normal dynamic of the situation.

You are absolutely correct in the fact that I cant change her. I dont expect to nor want to. After knowing her for 13 years and all the broken vows, empty promises, it will never happen.

I have found that to maintain the sanity as best as I can and showing the kids normal is the best one can hope for at this point.

Its good to hear how yours have turned out. I hope and pray every single day that mine will grow up and strive  in that direction. If they can grow up and navigate the crazy to become normal functioning adults I will feel like I accomplished my duty as a parent. It would be nice to look at that process as an equal endeaver including their mother but her presence in the the dynamics is merely a hindrance.

Mine too has had numerous bfs the last severral yeears but only this one has been introduced to the kids. I think her intentions with this one is to legitimize her relationship and see how the kids will fit in with him.

The girls also said he just sits there and doenst say anything. He is the perfect mirror object. She just changed the name and the face. (from some of her other 'soulmates' Although I never have been that quite and disfunctional. Maybe thats why we didnt work ... .

[Abigayle]

In my experience any traditional values my BPDh claims to have or displays are a part of his carefully crafted public persona. And they change to fit the audience. Of course, although he has been diagnosed I am still on the fence as to wether he is BPD or just flat out sociopathic. That said, I think (think is the keyword here - I don't think I'll ever understand how he thinks) his disorder prevents him from really trusting or taking stock in anything fully. It's like the fear of abandonment flows into every area of life - not just relationships. He can't seem to accept anything as solid, factual or at face value. He becomes obsessed with religious and political conspiracy alternately. When we separated, my BPDh was adamantly stating that he thought he was too smart to be a Christian (my faith) - Christians were foolish and gullible etc. Now he is filling facebook with emotional pleas for prayer, Bible verses, etc. Which one is real? I think neither really, and that he just doesn't know.

For him, I think the disorder prevents real core values because real core values are solid steadfast descriptors of who a person is and from what I understand of BPD, the essence of the disorder is a feeling of void. Really if you think about it, if someone truly has core values (be they Christian/traditional or otherwise), those values make them whole - kind of contradicts everything about BPD.

So I guess what I am getting at is that I too have experienced the frustration you are describing. You can't use things that are said to predict actions. There are no safe assumptions except that the behavior WILL be unpredictable.

[Free One]

In my experience any traditional values my BPDh claims to have or displays are a part of his carefully crafted public persona. And they change to fit the audience.

For him, I think the disorder prevents real core values because real core values are solid steadfast descriptors of who a person is and from what I understand of BPD, the essence of the disorder is a feeling of void. Really if you think about it, if someone truly has core values (be they Christian/traditional or otherwise), those values make them whole - kind of contradicts everything about BPD.

I agree with this. Part of the PD is a lack of stable identity, thus core values would contradict that.

I know it's hard with kids, but you have to be able to step back and pick your battles. Assess how much immediate danger are the kids in? Can other issues that come up be "teachable" moments with your kids? What kind of court paperwork do you have in place? What is enforceable? What is it that you are hoping to accomplish?