How do I set a boundary about email only contact?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

We are still having woes about the concert attendance - BPD/Nxh wants to take the kids at the end of October but I have many unanswered letters from lawyers.

Today he emailed me directly with an ultimatum:

Hi Kormilda,

As you are aware, the concert is on 28th October.

I wish to confirm with you that you are adamant in not being agreeable to me taking the children to the concert on that date, albeit you already agreeing in earlier correspondence.

If I don't hear back from you by close of business today I will assume you are not agreeable to letting the children attend the concert with me and consequently let my Brother know that he can then pass on the tickets.


My response:

Hi BPD/Nxh,

I am not sure if you have had an opportunity to review the proposal from my lawyer sent on xx August 2013 which said you were able to take the children to the concert/s in accordance with your acceptance of my proposal based on family report recommendation for child arrangements?

Based on your conversations with D8 and S6, it would appear that they are expecting and excited to attend the concert with one of us.

What is your proposal for taking the kids to the concert given we haven't commenced an arrangement with additional time?

Please advise,

Kormilda

His response: Please call me on my mobile to discuss.

It feels a bit like a trap... .he didn't provide his number and I am guessing that he wants to try to manipulate me over the phone, as he did in person a month or 2 ago.

How can I effectively state a boundary about email only? It will push back to the lawyers otherwise which is costly and I guess I am trying to avoid it at all costs. Part of me thinks we can resolve this or at least have an email trail of him trying to make it my fault that the kids miss out. His last correspondence through lawyer basically says he will see me in court in start November because I will not curtail to his demands.

IS this ok? I understand that you would like to resolve this issue, but I am not comfortable calling, and I believe the best way forward is to continue to email.

Any other ideas?

[Forward2free]

We are still having woes about the concert attendance - BPD/Nxh wants to take the kids at the end of October but I have many unanswered letters from lawyers.

Today he emailed me directly with an ultimatum:

Hi Kormilda,

As you are aware, the concert is on 28th October.

I wish to confirm with you that you are adamant in not being agreeable to me taking the children to the concert on that date, albeit you already agreeing in earlier correspondence.

If I don't hear back from you by close of business today I will assume you are not agreeable to letting the children attend the concert with me and consequently let my Brother know that he can then pass on the tickets.


My response:

Hi BPD/Nxh,

I am not sure if you have had an opportunity to review the proposal from my lawyer sent on xx August 2013 which said you were able to take the children to the concert/s in accordance with your acceptance of my proposal based on family report recommendation for child arrangements?

Based on your conversations with D8 and S6, it would appear that they are expecting and excited to attend the concert with one of us.

What is your proposal for taking the kids to the concert given we haven't commenced an arrangement with additional time?

Please advise,

Kormilda

His response: Please call me on my mobile to discuss.

It feels a bit like a trap... .he didn't provide his number and I am guessing that he wants to try to manipulate me over the phone, as he did in person a month or 2 ago.

How can I effectively state a boundary about email only? It will push back to the lawyers otherwise which is costly and I guess I am trying to avoid it at all costs. Part of me thinks we can resolve this or at least have an email trail of him trying to make it my fault that the kids miss out. His last correspondence through lawyer basically says he will see me in court in start November because I will not curtail to his demands.

IS this ok? I understand that you would like to resolve this issue, but I am not comfortable calling, and I believe the best way forward is to continue to email.

Any other ideas?

[Forward2free]

I received a further 2 emails. One giving me his phone number.

And this:

Dear Kormilda,

As I haven't received a phone call from you to discuss the matter I am sending you this further email.

Just to clear up any confusion you may have regarding conversations that I have had with D8 and S6 re the concert I will reiterate the following.

The children have never been told at ANY time that they will be attending the concert as a certainty, rather that I would do my best to organize it with you so that they along with their Dad could attend. They clearly understood this when we talked about it and still do now.

My proposal is simple:

I wish to take the children to the concert on Monday Xx in lieu of my four hours with the children on Sunday xx. Any proposals from you or myself are to be finalized at final hearing as instructed in previous correspondence through my Lawyer.

I would appreciate a definitive answer from you so as to not have this matter drag on any further.

This is an opportunity for the children to experience a special event with their Dad. Nothing negative can come from allowing us to attend the concert together, it will only demonstrate your willingness to facilitate the relationship between the children and their Father not to mention bring them much happiness.

Regards,

BPD/Nxh

[Aussie0zborn]

Oh gee, he puts a strong argument forward, doesn't he? He's making it look like you are being unreasonable and wishing to destroy their Dad time, which is probably how he sees it in his mi d This is a tough one and yet all he has to do is respond to your proposal which he won't do because some people can't be "told" what to do.

The problem I see here is that he can't follow procedure, carries on like a steamroller and in order to not disappoint your children, once they have been told about  this you would need to give in.  He's not playing b the rules.

[Mcgddss]

Just keep doing the email thing.

My uBPDh still tries to talk to me at transition.  I don't say a word and I get back in the car - even if it means I transition at a later time.

We just started mediation and he tried to talk to me while I was waiting in the court house lobby.  I will never be there alone again.

I never speak to him.  I only email because it is a documentation of his abuse.

His part about him being a good parent is textbook abuser.

Don't tell him why you won't call, just don't call.

I think of it like a toddler - you can't explain to them they have to eat their vegetables because of the nutrient value and they help them grow - you just make them eat their vegetables again and again. 

Just only communicate about what you want to talk about in email - and never respond to his "additional information."  It hurts and is tiresome and wears you down - but that is what he is trying to do so don't give him the pleasure.

[momtara]

Gosh, they are all so similar.

My husband tries to do this too.  It is a trap because if you have it in writing, you can prove what they say.  So why would they want that?

Stick to your guns.  Sometimes I do give in re the phone contact, and it calms him down, but on important things I want a record.

[crystal]

Totally agree with the others. You make the boundary stick by sticking to it.

And I also agree with stick to just the facts and don't respond to mean jabs about you. Dont apologize, dont explain, dont soften what you say.  It will only lead to more emails.

BUT, if he writes negative things that are not true, correct them-with JUST THE FACTS.  Again, no emotion. 

This feels really weird and uncomfortable but it definitely works the best to keep the communication down and to keep emotions down.  Also, my ex would get on a tear-- I dont know if he was bored or angry with something else or drinking--but he would send a flurry of nasty accusatory emails and if I responded quickly, the negative energy would just spiral out of control. I found that if I waited -- if its not an emergency only respond to emails once a day-- it took less of my time and emotions, HIS anger sometime diminished and it was easier for me to be factual and unemotional. 

Crystal

[Forward2free]

Thank you all, you are right, he is trying to steamroll me and make me out to be the bad parent. It's hard to not want to defend myself and my actions, but I don't want to engage either... .

I am thinking of this as a response, will it be ok?

BPD/Nxh,

In future, I request that you do not discuss any events which occur in my time with the children without first seeking my input.

D8 and S6 have very different views about what has been discussed with you.

The matter of the concert starting after their bedtime on a school night and taking the kids at ages 6 and 8 is of great concern to me. This will have a flow on effect and disrupt their entire week of school, which is a negative impact that you have not considered. Do I need to say this or leave it for court?

Reluctantly, I will agree on this occasion to swapping your time as you suggested and I will advise closer to the time about an alternate arrangement for handover of the children.

Kormilda

[Forward2free]

Maybe I should ask my lawyer to provide my response and disengage from him completely. He wants to prove we can communicate and coparent and I certainly don't want to set a precedent of working things out... .

Especially when he is the only winner in this situation and he's manipulated us all to get here.

Expensive legal option vs lifetime of manipulation... .

[eeyore]

Maybe I should ask my lawyer to provide my response and disengage from him completely. He wants to prove we can communicate and coparent and I certainly don't want to set a precedent of working things out... .

Especially when he is the only winner in this situation and he's manipulated us all to get here.

Expensive legal option vs lifetime of manipulation... .

Ugh... .I'm sorry.  I can totally see your perspective.  I'm sorry I don't have any good suggestions.  But I do have good thoughts for you.  I hope it gets better/easier. 

[GaGrl]

Maybe I should ask my lawyer to provide my response and disengage from him completely. He wants to prove we can communicate and coparent and I certainly don't want to set a precedent of working things out... .

Especially when he is the only winner in this situation and he's manipulated us all to get here.

Expensive legal option vs lifetime of manipulation... .

Yes.

[Forward2free]

Thanks :-)

I wrote to my lawyer and asked her to respond for me. None of this feels ok and I don't like where it's heading. His rule-breaking, inflated sense of parenting abilities and belittling of mine is really just the beginning.

I hate being placed in this position. I hate being the only responsible parent. Single parenting would be so much easier without him... .

[david]

I decided years ago to email only contact. I got rid of texting on my phone and stopped answering my phone when she called. If she left a voicemail and I needed to answer I would type what she said in the voicemail in an email and reply. Eventually my boundary stuck. Then... .about a year and a half ago ex started calling me from various unrecognizable phone numbers. I then stopped answering my phone altogether unless it was a number in my phonebook. She actually left voicemails to 5 or 6 of the numbers. I put them in my phonebook so I knew who it was. This went on for about two months and stopped. It started again about a week ago. Just one number so far. 

[Forward2free]

It's astonishing that they don't give up David, I agree.

I've had intervention orders in place for 4 years and only expired in March and was no contact until August this year. I invited him to 3 dental consultations for our daughter and it has opened the floodgates now.

We had one face to face chat and he promised the earth and told me to sign his proposal, full of exaggerated and inflated ideas.

I want to stay no contact. Apart for short to the point emails, I don't want any contact with him.

I hope your ex gets the same message David.

[crystal]

Maybe I should ask my lawyer to provide my response and disengage from him completely. He wants to prove we can communicate and coparent and I certainly don't want to set a precedent of working things out... .

Especially when he is the only winner in this situation and he's manipulated us all to get here.

Expensive legal option vs lifetim]

which is a negative impact that you have not considered.

This may be ok in the short run, but as David pointed out and I can attest, they don't give up and this will continue until your children are adults.  My lawyer said the judge would look badly on me if I always went through the lawyer. He also pointed out it was expensive!

I think your email was fine except I would leave out the " which is a negative impact that you have not considered. ". That is supposition.  JUST the facts!  You can ans should express your opinion.  "The concert occurs after bedtime on a school night (fact!) and I am concerned this will disrupt the school week.  No one can argue with that. 

I suggest you keep working on factual emails.  Write them, save them, go back and slash/edit them.  Read them out loud. Edit again. They should be cool and calm.  It gets easier with time

Crystal

[HardDaysNight]

Maybe I should ask my lawyer to provide my response and disengage from him completely. He wants to prove we can communicate and coparent and I certainly don't want to set a precedent of working things out... .

Especially when he is the only winner in this situation and he's manipulated us all to get here.

Expensive legal option vs lifetime of manipulation... .

Please listen to yourself.  Would you be comfortable saying "I certainly don't want to set a precedent of working things out... ." in front of the judge?  How is working things out not good for your kids?  How is being reasonable bad for anyone?   Don't think of responding to me, some unknown internet poster, on these questions.  Think of how you will respond when the judge asks you.

The response “he is the only winner in this situation and he's manipulated us all to get here” will get you nowhere unless where you are at is clearly bad for the children.  Clearly as in someone who is a friendly acquaintance with your ex would still think it was bad for the children.   

Where I live the courts frown upon parents that do not encourage the bond with the other parent.  Unless that parent is physically abusive, drug addict, engage in a criminal enterprise etc. 

BUT YOU HAD A VERY GOOD REASON FOR SAYING NO.

Your reasons for not agreeing, it is a school night they are young and keeping them out late are all very good reasons.  Unless this is truly a once in a lifetime event for his family, which I doubt.   You should not be afraid to give these reasons.  I don't think you would look bad to the court for doing so. 

If you proceed from a pure heart where you are concerned about a good life for the children, (part of that being they need a bond to both parents (again absent SERIOUS issues like above)) instead of wondering if he is manipulating you; you will be fine.   

[HardDaysNight]

... .

I want to stay no contact. Apart for short to the point emails, I don't want any contact with him.

... .

I think this is very reasonable.   Where I live the courts prefer this, it cuts down the BS.  It appears to be almost standard that they order all communication about the children be through OurFamilyWizard.

When you are the above board reasonable one written communication is your friend.

I would certainly decline talking to your ex on the phone, and I don't think you'll look bad for doing so.

[livednlearned]

I'm confused. So you are agreeing to let the kids go to the concert?

[ForeverDad]

I don't want to be in the middle of this, there's no single best answer, but... .I suspect that it's not wise to oppose it simply because it's on a school night.  If it were a week-long event and a day could be selected when it wouldn't impact the school schedule, then yes, I would oppose a mid-week date.  But if that's not the case and is somewhat special, then it being a school night, by itself, is not a reason to object.  Of course, I write "by itself".  Combined with other factors it may make a difference.

Now, after all these years, my ex wants to text, saying she doesn't have internet service.  I still send emails.  I suspect she had me blocked since separation, for all I know she still has me blocked, I don't know.  But I send my emails for notices anyway.  If it's important I send copies by mail.

[Forward2free]

Thanks for your responses!

Yes, I am agreeing to let the kids attend the concert and it is a once in a lifetime opportunity - will One Direction still be a band in the next 2 years?

I explained the situation to my lawyer and my reservations. She said that it is clear that BPD/Nxh is bullying, setting up expectations with kids, unreasonable choices, not seeking permission from me - primary care/custody (he has access 4 hours every 2 weeks), assuming spending A$2,500 on meet and greet tickets is value for a 6 and 8 year old to buy love etc etc.

I guess the truth is that I don't want to disappoint the kids either. I hate being in this situation. I shouldn't have to make a decision - he shouldn't have bought the tickets without asking me etc. I realise however that albeit the kids will suffer getting up for school the next day and be grumpy and tired for the week, there is really no long-term detrimental reason to say no.

My lawyer is hopeful that he will be thrilled with his "win" and then accept my proposal or come up with a reasonable proposal and we can avoid court... .not my motive, but from her perspective, I guess that would work too.

I have asked for Our Family Wizard to be used in my proposal to the other side. He hasn't agreed to anything yet, but I hope that will be the avenue for communication going forward.

Thank you!

[Forward2free]

My lawyer is sending the response today, she doesn't want me to be bullied into the 24 hour reply window... .

I was just responding to Momtara on another post and found this in his Lawyer's proposed court orders going forward:

"That save for communication in medical emergencies each of the parents do communicate with each other by email and such communication shall be limited to matters relevant to the welfare of the children and the implementation of this Order." 

Funny, I was looking for a solution to him wanting me to call him to discuss trivial matters and his Lawyer has come up with a solution for me. :-)

I'm back in court next month so these are not in place at the moment 

[Matt]

My suggestion would be, in situations like this:

* E-mail only, because it leaves a clear record.

* If his request isn't clear, ask him simple questions to get clarity.  If he says "a few hours on 10/28" you could ask, "What time are you proposing to pick them up, and when would you return them?"  You don't need to respond until it's clear what he is requesting.

* Then decide if you think it's OK;  or if you think a little different plan would be better;  or if you think it's best to just say no.

* Form your response in terms of what you will do, and what you are OK with him doing.  For example, if you think his request is clear and OK, you can repeat it back with your agreement:  "I'm OK with this - you will pick up the kids at 2:00 p.m. on 10/28, take them to the concert, and bring them back by 6:00 that evening."  Keep it as short, simple, and clear as possible.

* Or if you don't agree to what he requested but you have a little different idea, you can do the same:  "I'm not OK with you taking both kids to the concert, but if you want to take just D8 - pick her up at 2:00 and bring her back by 6:00 - that's OK with me."

* If you believe the best answer is no, make it clear why, but don't argue:  "I have other plans with the kids that day, so it won't work for either of them to go to the concert."

* Sometimes it seems to work best not to trade time - just agree to something special like this - but if you decide it's best to trade those hours for some other hours, make that super-clear in your e-mail:  "If you want to take them to the concert, picking them up at 2:00 10/28 and bringing them back by 6:00 that evening, and then I will have them from noon to 4:00 on the following Saturday, that's OK."

* Whatever your answer is, if he pushes back - tries to argue - you don't have to respond to that.  Think about your answer before sending it, and decide what you think is best, and then that's that.

* It's good to give a reason for your decision - "I have other plans with the kids that day."  Make sure it's true, and keep it very brief - no details.  Then don't argue about it - if he challenges what you have said - "I know you don't really have plans that day, you just want to jerk me around!" - don't respond.  Your decision is yours, and that's that.

[Forward2free]

Thanks Matt for putting such a clear response together. It's exactly what I need so that I can refer to it when I get flustered and feel blind-sided by BPD/Nxh.

[eeyore]

He's so good!  Thanks Matt!

[crystal]

Totally agree that Matt's advice is awesome!  Someone should take a few of his posts and tack them up top so they are easilyfound. anyone know how to suggest this?