how can I protect myself/kids?

[yawp419]

Hi all- just looking for some ideas/advice/suggestions... .I separated from my BPD husband two months ago and need to get an arrangement in place for our kids (ages 4 and 1)... .they live with me and there's no question I'll continue with sole custody when this is over... .but I'm just curious what can be put in place to protect me and the kids from the times when his behavior becomes erratic/aggressive? He has been diagnosed with BPD but not on the record - and he disagrees with this diagnosis but I have no question it's accurate. There are also substance abuse issues. When he is sober and in a good space emotionally, he is fine with the kids and I don't want to unnecessarily restrict contact... .but there need to be consequences when he takes a downward turn. I have contacted a lawyer so am going to get official legal advice... .but just curious what some of you have done in the past. I'm feeling really overwhelmed and feel like maybe I should be restricting contact even more than I already am - he just got back from a three-week trip and is now only seeing the kids for 1-2 hour chunks of time a few times a week, but even that makes me nervous because he is antagonistic to me in finding times, keeps saying I am "trying to keep him from his kids," etc etc etc... .Completely exhausting. Would love any advice! 

[ForeverDad]

Often there is never a diagnosis and even if there is one family court may effectively ignore it.  If it's not official or if the court is unwilling to order the records released, then it would probably be seen as he-said/she-said and be ignored as hearsay  You need to do what family court and many of the associated agencies do, they ignore the existence/lack of a diagnosis and instead focus on what counts the most - the behaviors.  Focus on the parenting behaviors (how the children and the parenting is impacted) more than the adult behaviors (with you and other adults).

If there is past substance abuse you can request that the court include provisions for drug testing randomly or on demand and that it be complied with within XX hours.  Be aware that your spouse may demand that you get tested too and court might agree with that condition that the rules apply equally.

Generally, it is best to get as much done in the temp order as possible.  Lousy temp orders have a nasty habit of becoming final orders.  So it is important for you to get the best order you can from the very start.  Your lawyer will probably motion in the divorce filing for certain controls and conditions be included in the temporary order.  Whether you would need a restraining or protection order as well, I don't know.  At the least you need to keep your options open.

We encourage members to get consultations from multiple lawyers.  Don't hire the first lawyer you interview. Generally it's difficult and expensive to switch lawyers later, so choose one who is experienced with high conflict divorces, who has a good strategy and you are comfortable with.

I've been separated then divorced for nearly 8 years.  During that time she's never had less than 50% parenting time but she has always found things to complain about, allege and fabricate.  So don't expect anything better from your spouse.  However, during separation and divorce, things are obviously going to be more contentious.  Court expects the conflict to fade once final orders are in place.  Maybe it will, maybe it won't.  Time will tell.  (That is why my lawyer told me that courts views post-decree motions for Contempt of Court more seriously than during the divorce process.)

[momtara]

If you look at one of my threads below, this is an issue I'm struggling with too.  I will post more eventually.  But you may want to consider a psych. and custody evaluation.  Lawyers will tell you whether this might help or hurt.  Document everything.  What Foreverdad said is sometimes true, but I've found that the dads on this board get a more raw deal than the moms (sorry dads!) so you may have a better chance of getting a diagnosis of your hubby than a guy might get if he's trying to get his wife evaluated.  Evidence of the alcohol problems may help.  My husband kept saying I was keeping him from the kids too, but by the time it came to negotiate an order, he only asked for one night every 2 weeks because he iknew he couldn't take care of them.  But before that he was claiming I was keeping him from them.  As you figured out, with a personality disorder, they may feel one way one day and then completely change their minds.

How are you able to keep the kids from him so much now?  What ever you are doing, it sets a good precedent.  Figure out ultimately what you want.  Supervised visitation?  Sole custody is often hard to get, but you never know.

[livednlearned]

This place is a blessing -- I'm so glad you found it at the start of your case!

Incredibly helpful books that are often recommended here: Splitting: Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse by Bill Eddy. Worth every penny.

Also: Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak. Most pwBPD try parental alienation, or accuse you of doing it. People who tell you, "don't put the kids in the middle" usually don't understand BPD. When your spouse puts them in the middle, you have to respond with certain tactics.

Good advice from FD about finding an L. The L's are super important! You can Google "high conflict divorce" or "parental alienation attorney" in your area if you want to find someone who specializes in high conflict divorces. Or, interview a bunch of Ls, and find an L that you think will fight for you. Lots of lawyers want to settle -- they pride themselves on it. You don't need that. You need a lawyer who understands that the language in your order must be watertight, that there has to be consequences spelled out clearly. In short, someone who understands the psychology of a high-conflict PD. Ask them: "My goal is sole custody and no overnights. What is your plan to help me get that?" And "Have you dealt with anyone who has a PD, and what was the outcome?"

Your L's strategy might include drug tests, depositions, custody evals, parenting coordinator, mediation. It will depend on your judge, your county court, state laws, how things are done where you live, and the details of your case.

A couple of things you can start doing now before getting an L:

Document everything. Everything! Every day, add stuff to a Google calendar. What you did with the kids, appointments, mention emails your ex sent you, when he left, when he came back. It will help you so much when you need to look at the chronology (you can print out Google calendars as agendas, and it dumps everything into a nice timeline). Documentation is gold! Keep everything. Be super concise, almost professional in your emails with your ex. If he pushes any anger buttons in you, never ever express that anger in email. Come here and be angry  That's what we're here for.

Find out if it's legal to covertly record someone in your state. You can find this info online. If it's legal, then carry a device on you at all times so you can record any rages or threats he might make directed toward you.

About the temporary plan:

Any temporary orders tend to become permanent -- when you consent to something, judges give it extra weight. They figure you know what you agreed to, so it can be hard to come back and say, "Actually, I no longer believe this." If your goal is sole custody and your ex tries to derail that, don't compromise with him early in the process thinking he will change his mind later. If you can't agree on everything in mediation (if that's what the first step if for you), know that you can agree to almost everything, and then leave some things for the court to decide. Like legal custody. Where I live, the don't give out sole custody so easily. So I started with primary physical, joint legal. I did not agree to joint legal. But we settled everything else. A year went by. N/BPDx's true colors showed, I filed for sole custody. Judge saw that I was consistent in my goal, saw N/BPDx's behavior, and he awarded me full custody.

My ex is an alcoholic. We used a deposition to flush him out. Alcoholics will say things like, "I quit drinking." Then the L asks, "How long since you had your last drink? Alcoholic says,  "Last night." L says, "I thought you said you quit." Alcoholic says, "I have quit many times. I had a drink last night, but other than that, I haven't been drinking." We started with a test to see how much alcohol was in his system, but those tests don't produce much. Hair tests are the best, but they are expensive.

pwBPD can not help themselves. They are impulsive, reactive, irrational, and unreasonable. Eventually, their behaviors will show in court. Your task is to capture the behavior. Take care of yourself -- it's going to be hard. If you can afford it, get a T. Sometimes we tend to sabotage ourselves with the same personality traits that landed us in these BPD relationships, like not being assertive, feeling guilty, obligated, fearful. Reaching your goals is almost as much about dealing with those issues as it is all the legal stuff.

People here are awesome, and have been through what you're going through.   You're not alone.

LnL

[yawp419]

Thank you all so much... .I do have a good therapist I've been seeing for almost two years now, and I'm in the process of hiring a lawyer. I've been documenting things, conflicts, etc but using a Google calendar is a great idea, thank you. Great advice too about how to convey feelings in email - I am working hard to stay detached, try not to get too reactive, which of course is hard when he's saying things that are completely irrational and/or untrue. Thanks too ForeverDad for the advice about "focusing on parenting behaviors not adult behaviors" ... .trying to separate his rage towards me, which is distressing enough, from his inconsistencies with the kids which I imagine is more what the judge will take into consideration. I actually don't think I'll have much trouble where custody is concerned because my husband is the first to acknowledge they should be with me... plus he's good with them for about an hour then gets bored/restless (our kids are very young)... .but you never know, the only predictable thing is his unpredictability. You're right too to focus on the behavior, not the diagnosis and not worry too much if a diagnosis is "on the books". Thanks for all of the advice - I'm so glad I found this board. This has all been so hard - trying to do the right things by my kids, setting boundaries, staying unemotional... .very draining and all on top of raising two small children. I really appreciate the support!

[yawp419]

Thank you all so much... .I do have a good therapist I've been seeing for almost two years now, and I'm in the process of hiring a lawyer. I've been documenting things, conflicts, etc but using a Google calendar is a great idea, thank you. Great advice too about how to convey feelings in email - I am working hard to stay detached, try not to get too reactive, which of course is hard when he's saying things that are completely irrational and/or untrue. Thanks too ForeverDad for the advice about "focusing on parenting behaviors not adult behaviors" ... .trying to separate his rage towards me, which is distressing enough, from his inconsistencies with the kids which I imagine is more what the judge will take into consideration. I actually don't think I'll have much trouble where custody is concerned because my husband is the first to acknowledge they should be with me... plus he's good with them for about an hour then gets bored/restless (our kids are very young)... .but you never know, the only predictable thing is his unpredictability. You're right too to focus on the behavior, not the diagnosis and not worry too much if a diagnosis is "on the books". Thanks for all of the advice - I'm so glad I found this board. This has all been so hard - trying to do the right things by my kids, setting boundaries, staying unemotional... .very draining and all on top of raising two small children. I really appreciate the support!

[ForeverDad]

Incredibly helpful books that are often recommended here:

Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy. Worth every penny.

Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak. Most pwBPD try parental alienation, or accuse you of doing it. People who tell you, "don't put the kids in the middle" usually don't understand BPD. When your spouse puts them in the middle, you have to respond with certain tactics.

One thing to keep in mind as the years go by is to validate the children.  It's easy to unconsciously invalidate them.  For example, if one of your kids makes an observation about a poor behavior, don't reply, "Oh, he's just having a bad day" or "but he still loves you".  However true that may or may not be, it could be invalidating, as though you're saying your child is wrong or mistaken in what he or she saw or concluded.  You need to validate the observations in an age appropriate way.  No, don't trash the other parent but do help train your children to observe, evaluate and learn, not excuse, discount or ignore.  That's validating and not invalidating.

[livednlearned]

Incredibly helpful books that are often recommended here:

Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy. Worth every penny.

Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak. Most pwBPD try parental alienation, or accuse you of doing it. People who tell you, "don't put the kids in the middle" usually don't understand BPD. When your spouse puts them in the middle, you have to respond with certain tactics.

One thing to keep in mind as the years go by is to validate the children.  It's easy to unconsciously invalidate them.  For example, if one of your kids makes an observation about a poor behavior, don't reply, "Oh, he's just having a bad day" or "but he still loves you".  However true that may or may not be, it could be invalidating, as though you're saying your child is wrong or mistaken in what he or she saw or concluded.  You need to validate the observations in an age appropriate way.  No, don't trash the other parent but do help train your children to observe, evaluate and learn, not excuse, discount or ignore.  That's validating and not invalidating.

I agree with FD! Validating worked like magic on S12. There's another excellent book called Power of Validation, which explains how to validate while parenting. It's not about letting your kids do whatever they want, or act however they want. It's about validating how they feel so they know you heard them. They are much less likely to escalate troubling behaviors if they feel heard. Once I started validating S12 and saw how it worked with him, I found myself doing it with everyone. It really changed my life.

I didn't leave N/BPDx until S12 was 9. Your kids are young, and learning how to validate them between the ages of 0-6 while they're in those critical stages of early development -- what a gift you'll give them. S12 started to talk about wanting to kill himself when he was 7. I tried saying so many different things to try and manage those conversations, but nothing worked until I started validating him. "You must feel very, very sad to say that." I started to feel my own pain about how sad he was, and he felt it, saw it, could feel how much I loved him. A couple of times we just hugged while we both felt sad. After doing that half a dozen times, he stopped. He hasn't said it for over 3 years. He just needed someone, one person, to hear him say how sad and hurt he felt.

It's how we heal. 

[yawp419]

Thanks FD and livednlearned... .it is really hard, not so much with my daughter obviously since she's too young to know anything, but for my son who is 4 and has seen so much of his dad's bad/erratic behavior. That's really good advice, FD, about validating - it's easy sometimes to say ":)addy's just having a bad day" or "it's not about you" - I think I did that way too much when we were still together, and then finally I learned to be a little more honest at least, like saying ":)addy's working on not being angry anymore - just like I'm working on being more patient, and you're working on being a good listener." It's telling that even though my son loves playing with his dad, he's taken our separation really well... .but it's hard because he'll be doing fine and then when my husband behaves badly/inconsistently I see my son feeling confused/anxious again. Recently I did get him to talk a little bit about what he does and doesn't like about his time with his dad... .I told him, "see, when you talk about it we can usually find a way to fix the problem!" and try to focus with him on expressing how he's feeling - and on distracting him and giving him stability. It feels so incredibly unfair - I know his dad has an illness, but when he does things that confuse or upset my son, I just wish there was a way to protect him. I'm struggling now because we don't have a formal order in place - so it's really my call how much time they can spend with him. Right now my husband's in a better, more calm place - so we're doing short visits a few afternoons a week with the goal of working back up to longer visits and a sleepover once every week or two weeks - but I know his mood could change at any moment. I'm seeing a lawyer next week so that's a first step, I guess. It's hard because the optimistic/naive part keeps hoping he can get his act together, be a consistent dad... .but obviously if it were that easy, he would have done it when he was still trying to save our marriage... .and I feel sad for him, because he's losing more than I am - hard to feel so many conflicting feelings sometimes, and not many people can understand them.

[livednlearned]

so we're doing short visits a few afternoons a week with the goal of working back up to longer visits and a sleepover once every week or two weeks - but I know his mood could change at any moment.

Right now you're establishing the status quo. Even though you haven't legally agreed to anything, the arrangement you have right now will count when it comes to a formal custody order. I would change your goal for now: A few afternoons a week, with the goal of getting the best custody arrangement for my son.

For the custody order, err on the side of having no overnights. If there comes a time when you think it's ok for your son to spend the night, you can always consent. But in terms of the legal stuff, work toward the most favorable outcome for you, the one that gives the more stable parent the option to decide what's best for your son.

[ForeverDad]

so we're doing short visits a few afternoons a week with the goal of working back up to longer visits and a sleepover once every week or two weeks - but I know his mood could change at any moment.

Right now you're establishing the status quo. Even though you haven't legally agreed to anything, the arrangement you have right now will count when it comes to a formal custody order. I would change your goal for now: A few afternoons a week, with the goal of getting the best custody arrangement for my son.

For the custody order, err on the side of having no overnights. If there comes a time when you think it's ok for your son to spend the night, you can always consent. But in terms of the legal stuff, work toward the most favorable outcome for you, the one that gives the more stable parent the option to decide what's best for your son.

This is important.  Maybe the court will agree with a limited schedule as it is currently, maybe not, that's up to a judge to ponder and decide but you need to accept that "hopes and wishes" for him to significantly improve or become more stable are very iffy and should not be a part of your parenting strategy.  You need to accept reality - as it is now, not what you hope for - that it is vastly simpler and less expensive for the stable and reasonable parent to have a good schedule and have the ability to grant additional time as appropriate than to hope a generous schedule that would be difficult to change might work.

You are a reasonable and reasonably normal parent, or so we believe from your posts thus far.  It is better to have a solid schedule that serves your child first and others second.  You always have the option to later deviate from the official schedule now and then as appropriate based on the then-current behaviors and circumstances.  We all want to be fair but the interests of the child come first and you may need the flexibility over time.  Don't lock yourself into a schedule that turns out to be impractical or unhealthy for your children or expensive to fix later on.