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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Author Topic: No BPD symtoms if she can have everything her way  (Read 409 times)
hergestridge
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« on: January 02, 2014, 04:42:48 PM »

Some background:

My wife has BPD. We have a 3yr old daughter.

She dysregulates regularly and becomes confrontative towards me and my daughter.

If I defend myself or my daughter verbally, it worsens the situation and my wife will rage or break down. This has led to suicide ideation and hospitalization.

When I respond to her dysregulation with silence and passivity, she will be hell to be around for a couple of days, but she will not rage or create drama. Neither will she remember any dysregulation. She can be in a terrible mood for days and then remember it as a "good period".

The thing is, she inflicts just as much damage to me and our daughter in both cases, but if I'm passive then it seems she won't go into the full blown drama thing. Her doctor and therapist will also see this as "improvement". So will my wife.

It seems to me that a family that "defends itself" against the dysregulation (not to say abuse) of the BPD only worsens the situation.

But it this livable? Apart from the obvious unpleasantness of the whole situation of not being able to talk about the "elephant in the room" for the rest of my life, I also think it's dangerous to live in the kind of terror-balance where you can't  tell someone that he/she does something wrong, regardless of the situation.

(My wife has developed an almost phobic reaction pattern towards "being told of", which has actually led her to accepting dangerous situations.

Just an example:

She's on quite heavy medication and she's been forgetting things, so I've been forced to remind her (in a friendly tone) to do things like put away sharp knifes and not let the lihtium pills lie on the table. She now claims that our three year old can handle a knife and that the lithium pills are hard to get out of the box... . so it's really ok. Just give the kid the knife to show daddy that he's wrong... .  )


I know there are techniques and stuff, but... . to me the thought of subjecting myself and my daughter to a load of abuse and never respond in the way that is natural for a person to do, but to respond in way that a professional person does (using various "techniques". Does it sound livable? Does it sound healthy?

The problem for us (me and the daughter) and the problem for my wife is that we are not equal. In so many ways we don't play in the same league. We don't share the same goals. Me and the daughter aim to enjoy ourselves over the weekend. My wife aims to put out as many as possible of the imagined fires inside her head and to make us other do what it takes to enable that.

Has anyone managed to be "straight" in the communcation with their BPD SO and made it work? Straight in the sense "if your're angry, I'm angry back"? My experience with my wife is that's the only communication that she understands. But she can't tolerate it, because she breaks down.

The S.E.T. technique doesn't seem to quite do it because whatever reasonable conclusion we end up with she goes into the "Why am always I the bad one? Why am always I the one that did something wrong?"

Always the same thing. It's the blame game, and she lost. She goes to hospital.

One of the more urgent problems is that my wife is too fixated with issues surround meals and hygiene that has to do with our daughter. It's taking up half our spare time or more, and every meal and bathtime is a pain because of... . mommy's rage. And talking about it will be like this. I've started go get the "evil eye" when I've mentioned that she will have to cool it a little, and I know there will be real trouble if I want to really talk about it. It might very well end up in hospital.

Long post, but to put it in short:

My wife reacts to a non-violent verbal confrontation as if it was a fist in the stomach. How do I make this livable?

She's in DBT, she's on lithium... . what on earth should I do?



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Seneca
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« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2014, 07:43:32 PM »

What on earth should you do? Document every loony thing she does and as soon as you can get out of there with your kiddo and fight for full custody.

I kind of stop the buck when kids are involved. And I HAVE kids. If my mister dysregulated in front of my kids on a consistent basis we'd be gone before he knew what happened. Look, kids who grow up in homes with crazy disfunctional parents usually grow up to be crazy disfunctional people themselves. Spare the next generation, and your own soul.

I am so so sorry you are living in these horrible circumstances. 
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dontknow2
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« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2014, 08:54:36 PM »

hergestridge,

I am so sorry and feel your pain. I've gone through much of the same with my dxbPDh. Just for context, him and I are talking again as friends. I am interested to see if reconciliation (again) is possible.

Before I could answer similar questions with a response that felt good and solid for me (not the books, etc.), I had to take time out and do what I needed for me. Whatever it takes; in my case, this required living apart periodically plus other stuff but not sure if this fits you. No matter what if I let myself fall ill/stressed/depressed/angry, I sure couldn't care for my kids or be 'super-human - what it feels like sometimes' caring for my severely ill ex.

Once I started taking better care of myself, I could answer realistically questions like "is this livable", etc.

In regards to communication, the more I validate him, the better the overall communication gets. It took me forever to figure out how to validate me and him. I had to get to the point that unless it is a safety or major issue, then try to support what he is trying to do (even if weird, annoying, unnecessary). Over time in most cases, he would phase it out and move on to something else anyway. The other part is how to validate me and my needs but do it without as much conflict; so, I find separating the 2 is crucial. In other words, keep my concerns separate from his even if overlaps exists in a single conversation or even within days of each other (so he can't connect them).

A more serious example: his Mom has no interest in our kids (told me no to calling or e-mailing them a few times of year), treats him like dog ___, acted like his abuse was not a problem, and tried to break our marriage apart. Yet, he adores her like she is an angel; wants to buy her lavish gifts, etc. (more than me). Instead of resenting this, making me SO mad, and fighting like I used to, I realized I get farther now validating him (i.e. "that sounds like a wonderful gift. I can see you really love your mother".Smiling (click to insert in post). In different conversations, I tell him how I feel and why ("I am angry at your mother for xyz. I don't want to visit.". Over time, he is becoming more realistic about who she is as he talks to me about her. Sometimes, I still get mad, start crying or snapped at him about it though.

I had to come to accept that he won't validate me in a similar way generally. He does validate me but has been mostly in his skewed reality. It took me many years to pick up on his breadcrumbs that led to my validation. He won't be direct... . he'd have to face himself to do that.

This is the way I look at it. I am growing leaps and bounds as a more self-aware, better person in general. I am more effective with my kids, my family, and even see the benefits at work (becoming a better leader). So, I continue to work on it for me not for my ex. Also, it is very important to me to stop my family's history of marrying crazy, having kids, splitting, and one raising kids on their own while the other disengages. My father's abandonment and mother's PD really took their toll on the inside of me. The best way for me to stop the generational bleeding is for me to overcome my own mental illness, learn to love myself and therefore be able to love those close to me including my kid's father (giving him a chance), and protect my children at the same time, WOW... . keep going as long as progress is being made. It's been a life long journey.

I liken my relationship and combo self-work onto trying to climb Mount Everest without training/tools and learn, try to survive as you go; but want it that bad that you hang in there until you make it to the top.

To keep fighting through the years, you will need to decide why, in specifics, the relationship is THAT important to you.

I wish you and your family the very best.
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empathic
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« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2014, 04:23:57 AM »

Sorry to hear about your struggles. I see similarities to my own r/s. Like you say, being passive can put out the fire, but it's not a fun place to be. Keeping it all inside yourself may not be healthy, you need some kind of support to deal with those thoughts.

I think my wife has developed her communication pattern (or lack thereof) as a coping technique when growing up, and it has apparently worked for her, or she would not be doing it. She also has no memory of being dysregulated, a few months back I told her during an argument that she had called me an idiot the week before - and she denied it. It's hard to understand - I work the exact opposite way in that I recall harsh words and abuse very easily.

I also feel the same way as you do about weekends and holidays, for me and the kids it's a time to relax and reload the batteries. She doesn't know how to relax, even when by most standards "most things are done" she finds something new to do, for example doing the laundry at 8 p.m. on a Sat evening. If I dare confront her about that she'd explode, I have in 10 years not found a single way to deal with that.

What if you and your daughter do things on your own, during the weekends for example, how does your wife react to that?

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an0ught
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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2014, 08:52:26 AM »

Hello hergestridge.

some of what you describe sounds like you are at a breaking point  . You and your kid have to come first, there is only so much you can do to help your wife. Don't be shy of asking for help from the outside - this drama stuff can be isolating.

(My wife has developed an almost phobic reaction pattern towards "being told of", which has actually led her to accepting dangerous situations.

Just an example:

She's on quite heavy medication and she's been forgetting things, so I've been forced to remind her (in a friendly tone) to do things like put away sharp knifes and not let the lihtium pills lie on the table. She now claims that our three year old can handle a knife and that the lithium pills are hard to get out of the box... . so it's really ok. Just give the kid the knife to show daddy that he's wrong... .  )


I know there are techniques and stuff, but... . to me the thought of subjecting myself and my daughter to a load of abuse and never respond in the way that is natural for a person to do, but to respond in way that a professional person does (using various "techniques". Does it sound livable? Does it sound healthy?

This does not sound healthy on many levels! She is ill and medicated - she is certified not healthy. That is restricting your options. Accepting and taking it more into account may help somewhat. In the described situation

Forgetting to put away pills - this is indeed dangerous. You are right that this forces you to act - a life is at risk. Is she forgetting it intentional? Not likely, it is more likely disassociation from BPD and medication. Will reminding her help in this case - not likely either as she lacks control over the causes. Reminding her only makes her feel helpless and a blow-up can happen. Safer storage of smaller quantities of pills under your supervision, keeping the child under constant supervision or removing it from the household are all options that have an impact on the risk of poisoning. As you seem to be in some contact with her T it may be also worth taking it up there that you perceive problems with the safe use of the drug and see the the child at risk. The T is in part responsible for creating the situation so it is only fair to look for help from that corner. None of these possible approaches are simple, risk and pain free but in any case the solution can not be through the person that is out of control.

The knifes same story - she is not doing it intentional. However trying to control her behavior is invalidating and getting her upset. Telling you that knife play is safe for a 3 year old is then only the logical conclusion - not because she believes it but because she senses it is a sure way to get you upset too. Now both sides are upset and the wife receives her dose of validation: The world is mad.

There are two approaches here:

 S: You're busy and may have not noticed.

 E: X is quite lively and moving around a lot. Also grabbing what it can and sticking it into the mouth. I wonder what happens if X gets the small fingers on these sharp knifes. I'm really worried.

 T: How do we keep X safe here?

Note: She has no initial emotions here (other than situational ones being busy. There may be also surprise (which can be connected to fear)) as she has no awareness of the problem. You however have a lot of emotions stored up. And that will be felt and will cause her to react asap without even hearing you out! Laying them on the table will clarify that you have concerns and are not acting aggressive. Also playing on mother instincts may give you a lever. Finally instead of prescribing a solution asking her to come up with one may also be better perceived.

Another option are boundaries - removing the child from the kitchen etc...

As hard as it is your wife is ill and she is not always acting as an adult. Trying to indirectly control her (to get her to control herself) is sometimes futile or backfiring.

Excerpt
Has anyone managed to be "straight" in the communcation with their BPD SO and made it work? Straight in the sense "if your're angry, I'm angry back"? My experience with my wife is that's the only communication that she understands. But she can't tolerate it, because she breaks down.

The S.E.T. technique doesn't seem to quite do it because whatever reasonable conclusion we end up with she goes into the "Why am always I the bad one? Why am always I the one that did something wrong?"

Always the same thing. It's the blame game, and she lost. She goes to hospital.

From what you wrote your wife is super, super sensitive to invalidation. Possibly constantly a bit dysregulated and close to total dysreguation with bouts of getting stuck there leading to hospitalization. Straight talk - even delivered in a well made SET sandwich - will be hard to swallow for her - often too hard. Yes, it would be great if you could give her some feedback and directions to help her coping better but at the moment clearly she won't tolerate a big dose of T.

Using SET to get a grip on the situation puts you at the mercy of her (and while she is not deliberately cruel (but may choose instinctive cruel means to upset you) she is incapable). At the moment appealing at her rationale side has limited hope as she is too emotional. And while you are trying hard and often get SET right it leaves you feeling helpless   - giving control in hands unable to control.

That leaves you

 - validation - helping her to regulate emotions and making sense

 - boundaries - with a focus on that you have control over consequences. You act.

Excerpt
One of the more urgent problems is that my wife is too fixated with issues surround meals and hygiene that has to do with our daughter. It's taking up half our spare time or more, and every meal and bathtime is a pain because of... . mommy's rage. And talking about it will be like this. I've started go get the "evil eye" when I've mentioned that she will have to cool it a little, and I know there will be real trouble if I want to really talk about it. It might very well end up in hospital.

Hmm, difficult. Raging around a small child does not sound good at all. Can the conflict parties somewhat be separated at least at times? It is hard to leave me with the child alone (validate abandonment) and sure you think you can do it better but you deserve a break? Discussing it with her will be difficult and it will take initiative and acting to implement any changes to your current dysfunctional routine. Again talking will overload her - she is way too sensitive.

I also feel the same way as you do about weekends and holidays, for me and the kids it's a time to relax and reload the batteries. She doesn't know how to relax, even when by most standards "most things are done" she finds something new to do, for example doing the laundry at 8 p.m. on a Sat evening. If I dare confront her about that she'd explode, I have in 10 years not found a single way to deal with that.

Dysfunctional behavior for sure. But how damaging is it? There could be worse. Snapping rubber bands at the wrist is better than cutting the wrist. The behavior is somewhat obsessive compulsive but keeping busy and things clean are not that much damaging. She has to regulate her emotions and if this is something the keeps her calm - good - she got a tool to fix herself and uses it. Rather than trying to stop it in general plan to limit the impact it has on you e.g. avoid being locked up yourself at home by her 8pm "duties" and e.g. go to the movies with the kids (leaving it up to her to join or not). It is important to pick our battles.

hergestridge, it is not your responsibility to fix your wife and control her behavior. She ill and while she may get better (and more approachable for discussion) right now you can only wait that therapy takes hold (it is not unusual for them first getting more confused) and cope as well as you can (validation, boundaries). From our tools other than these there is only Radical Acceptance for family members of her being an ill, forgetful, very sensitive, emotional vulnerable person not able to carry the load of an adult. A load that you have to carry and which at times seems to much. It may make sense to seek out professional support for yourself as it is not healthy to be constantly in an overwhelming situation.

Excerpt
How do I make this livable?

This is valid question and I don't have many answers. Putting yourself and your child is key. You can't control her but you need to protect yourself. Real boundaries are not controlling but protecting. She still will not like it and behave like

Excerpt
it was a fist in the stomach.

but you don't have much options and it is her problems when she walks into a wall and hurts her head. By all means avoid conflict (JADE, indirectly controlling SET) but start establishing a few boundaries that matter (particularly safety and protecting your own energy) - ones you believe so strongly that you don't cave it. She will dysregulate with any boundary but if it is defensive and you avoid JADE maybe it blows by. And if she is hospitalized would that be unhealthy for any one involved?

This is a tough way to start the year  ,

a0
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