I feel like giving up

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I thought we had a productive couples counseling session on tuesday.  She vented her frustrations about not being married yet, about wanting a baby, being dependent on me for happiness, about having fears that I am going to leave her like everyone else, basically screaming (I HAVE BPD!) to the therapist.  The therapist suggested that those fears have nothing to do with me and the current relationship.  And she listened.  And I explained that I have a difficult time wrapping my emotions around something as happy as marriage when she is constantly telling me how much she hates herself and wants to kill herself.  I cried and she cried, and I thought she understood.  I thought we had a communication breakthrough, and understanding that we both have issues to work on, and that her happiness mattered more than anything else.

She started DBT group therapy Wednesday, and came home somber.  She said she is "f*ked up" and "really depressed" and that is why "{I} don't want to marry {her}".  Aha.  I thought she had another breakthrough.  Fix herself, and then we can move forward.  I've been trying to talk to her about money, saying I am stressed about money, in hopes it would encourage her to contribute, or at least quit asking me to buy new things.  And it seems she is misinterpreting, now feeling that I am somehow forcing her to contribute financially and holding that over her - like I am saying "get a job or I will never marry you or have kids with you."  And she is now freaking out about me spending money, and feel jealous that she has no money and needs to ask me for money, and wants a job, but freaks out over the prospect of not having a job.  It's just no win.

Today, she was texting me, sounding hopeless again.  Saying she is worried about money and she should just move out because I will never marry her and she is just wasting her time and that we will never have enough money.  Uggh.  Here we go again.  She's decided in her mind that I don't want to be with her, and that that I am going to break up with her anyway, so she might as well just move out (or tell me she wants to move out - this could be manipulation).  It's no win.  I'm paying for everything right now, so her saying about us having no money just makes no sense.  Just a distorted reality here.  

I was soo close and tempted to just text back - "fine, do what you feel is right for your life."    Of course, this would have erupted into a rage, mean comments, and likely the end of the relationship.  But I'm so burnt out with this, I don't know if I care.

I don't know how to get this to stop.  It's at least every few days.  She can't go three days without bringing up marriage, not having money, having a baby.  Its like she forgets what we talked about!  And what we talked about doesn't really need to be talked about, because it should be commonly understood:  We won't have a baby if we can't afford it.  It's not responsible.  And we don't have enough money, and that is because she is not working.  But in her reality it just gets distorted because the emotions take over, and her brain races, and then she sits and races until she erupts.  

The reality is, I don't know it this relationship will go anywhere, I don't even have time to think about where this relationship is going, because it is crisis after crisis.  If I am not in her presence, she panics.  I don't have time to think about babies, finding a better paying job, next month or next year.  And dealing with this now just feels like such a waste of time on something that seems so uncertain.  And perhaps that is part of her panic - why does she waste her time on me when I can't give her concrete answers?  

I think it may help to sit down with her and plan some kind of combined budget.  Let her know that I have enough money to manage the household if she can ear enough to take care of her own expenses.  I can break down how much she will get per month with disability, subtract her known expenses, and let her know how much she will have left.  And then I can show her how much I earn, show her my known expenses, and how much I have left at the end of the month.  And then I can present a plan:  She take care of her expenses with the disability money.  She can have the remaining to do what she wants with.  And then I can explain that I will use my remaining money to pay off outstanding debts.  And I will explain how long it will take to pay off said debts,  And that if I get a part time job, or if she contributes some of her free money to the household, those debts get paid sooner, and once those bills are gone, that means more free money, and more money to raise a family with.  I doubt that will settle her mind, though.  She will still twist that into her alternate reality.  

But the reality is, had she worked like she said she would when she moved in with me, and been paying 500 per month towards shared living expenses, I would have zero credit card debt right now, my student loan would almost be paid off, and in 6 months with our combined incomes, we would have had plenty to start a family with.

I just don't know what to do anymore.  It feels futile to try and explain this things because she hears something different.  I feel like it is only a matter of time before I just give up and say flat out, "I would have liked to start a family with you, but you aren't holding up your end of the relationship.  Before we talk about marriage or family, I need you to learn to love yourself, and learn how to take care of yourself.  And if you feel you can't do that, I am tired of waiting."  The harsh reality is - she's 38 - and I can almost guarantee she's not capable of loving herself, and never will be.  

[maxsterling]

I thought we had a productive couples counseling session on tuesday.  She vented her frustrations about not being married yet, about wanting a baby, being dependent on me for happiness, about having fears that I am going to leave her like everyone else, basically screaming (I HAVE BPD!) to the therapist.  The therapist suggested that those fears have nothing to do with me and the current relationship.  And she listened.  And I explained that I have a difficult time wrapping my emotions around something as happy as marriage when she is constantly telling me how much she hates herself and wants to kill herself.  I cried and she cried, and I thought she understood.  I thought we had a communication breakthrough, and understanding that we both have issues to work on, and that her happiness mattered more than anything else.

She started DBT group therapy Wednesday, and came home somber.  She said she is "f*ked up" and "really depressed" and that is why "{I} don't want to marry {her}".  Aha.  I thought she had another breakthrough.  Fix herself, and then we can move forward.  I've been trying to talk to her about money, saying I am stressed about money, in hopes it would encourage her to contribute, or at least quit asking me to buy new things.  And it seems she is misinterpreting, now feeling that I am somehow forcing her to contribute financially and holding that over her - like I am saying "get a job or I will never marry you or have kids with you."  And she is now freaking out about me spending money, and feel jealous that she has no money and needs to ask me for money, and wants a job, but freaks out over the prospect of not having a job.  It's just no win.

Today, she was texting me, sounding hopeless again.  Saying she is worried about money and she should just move out because I will never marry her and she is just wasting her time and that we will never have enough money.  Uggh.  Here we go again.  She's decided in her mind that I don't want to be with her, and that that I am going to break up with her anyway, so she might as well just move out (or tell me she wants to move out - this could be manipulation).  It's no win.  I'm paying for everything right now, so her saying about us having no money just makes no sense.  Just a distorted reality here.  

I was soo close and tempted to just text back - "fine, do what you feel is right for your life."    Of course, this would have erupted into a rage, mean comments, and likely the end of the relationship.  But I'm so burnt out with this, I don't know if I care.

I don't know how to get this to stop.  It's at least every few days.  She can't go three days without bringing up marriage, not having money, having a baby.  Its like she forgets what we talked about!  And what we talked about doesn't really need to be talked about, because it should be commonly understood:  We won't have a baby if we can't afford it.  It's not responsible.  And we don't have enough money, and that is because she is not working.  But in her reality it just gets distorted because the emotions take over, and her brain races, and then she sits and races until she erupts.  

The reality is, I don't know it this relationship will go anywhere, I don't even have time to think about where this relationship is going, because it is crisis after crisis.  If I am not in her presence, she panics.  I don't have time to think about babies, finding a better paying job, next month or next year.  And dealing with this now just feels like such a waste of time on something that seems so uncertain.  And perhaps that is part of her panic - why does she waste her time on me when I can't give her concrete answers?  

I think it may help to sit down with her and plan some kind of combined budget.  Let her know that I have enough money to manage the household if she can ear enough to take care of her own expenses.  I can break down how much she will get per month with disability, subtract her known expenses, and let her know how much she will have left.  And then I can show her how much I earn, show her my known expenses, and how much I have left at the end of the month.  And then I can present a plan:  She take care of her expenses with the disability money.  She can have the remaining to do what she wants with.  And then I can explain that I will use my remaining money to pay off outstanding debts.  And I will explain how long it will take to pay off said debts,  And that if I get a part time job, or if she contributes some of her free money to the household, those debts get paid sooner, and once those bills are gone, that means more free money, and more money to raise a family with.  I doubt that will settle her mind, though.  She will still twist that into her alternate reality.  

But the reality is, had she worked like she said she would when she moved in with me, and been paying 500 per month towards shared living expenses, I would have zero credit card debt right now, my student loan would almost be paid off, and in 6 months with our combined incomes, we would have had plenty to start a family with.

I just don't know what to do anymore.  It feels futile to try and explain this things because she hears something different.  I feel like it is only a matter of time before I just give up and say flat out, "I would have liked to start a family with you, but you aren't holding up your end of the relationship.  Before we talk about marriage or family, I need you to learn to love yourself, and learn how to take care of yourself.  And if you feel you can't do that, I am tired of waiting."  The harsh reality is - she's 38 - and I can almost guarantee she's not capable of loving herself, and never will be.  

[Surrender]

I understand what you are going through and I have to say I ask myself this every day. When they don't give us much to go on it is difficult to lay all our hopes and dreams on them when they systematically sabotage them. My UBPD can't go two days it seems without becoming completely dysregulated and falling into his moody negative doubt rants... . trying to find reasons why he should terminate us yet he doesn't. Well, truth be told we have broken up at least 20 times in two years.

I wish I had some advice to give you here but the truth is that I'm looking for advice as well. I feel like I am beating my head against a wall and that no matter how badly he wants this, he is his own worst enemy and will work towards trying to destroy us. The more we pile on more crisis and dysfunctions the more evidence that gives him against me and us. So it's a catch 22 really.

I want us all to set ourselves lose and find real happiness. Somehow we have convinced ourselves that the little measure of happiness they give us is enough and that is very disturbing to me. I know deep down that I deserve better and he knows it too. Sometimes I caught him being angry at me for staying with him even, saying "you said I'm abusive to you so why would you stay with someone who is abusing you unless you have zero self-respect". That one hurt because I know that for a BPD respect is a huge thing so why am I staying then?

I don't think our stories of heart break will end my friend not with them no matter how much we love them they are hurting us all the time and we can't fix them. I spend my entire life walking on egg shells and trying to misdirect the next moody emotional dysregulated rage and that isn't a way to live. You know it's like each day I wonder if he will blow... . if I will come home and out of the blue be pummeled with the next attack, criticisms and accusations. That is how it goes, there is no warning it just comes out of nowhere and especially after we are really really close. Mine can't go more than two days being stable before the devil returns.

I can't speak rationally to him because he is processing everything so differently. If I say nothing than he becomes more furious but if I defend myself than all hell breaks loose, so I can't win.

I don't know if you want to live like this for the rest of your life but I don't really think that I can. I know my story won't change and in fact it will probably get worse. If my guy and I decide to live together finally and be together than what I see is that over a year or two he will make my life a living hell non-stop. My family is actually scared for me that I've fallen in love with him... . they see that we are so aligned in many ways and then they see danger and catastrophe. So what is my problem then? What is our problem that we still are trying to find reasons to be with them?

I know and don't question our love for them... . in fact I've never loved anyone more nor have I met anyone who is more similar to me than him with the exception of the UBPD.

So, when people here say try and put some distance so that you can see things for what they are, I'm inclined to believe that is true. Disconnection I think is critical for us... . I'm no good at that because I'm still here fighting to be with him but I know deep in my heart it's true. Life is torture for them and anyone who gets close inside their world is brought inside their agony and their abuses. Just as they abuse themselves we then in turn become their abused. We in essence are their extensions... . we are not separate from them.

That is the reason why my boyfriend can pick all my blemishes the way he does his own and it calms him down... . he is simply picking his own skin. I don't know if this helps but bit by bit maybe we are finding a way out of here.

[Seneca]

max, i feel your pain and frustration so clearly here. and we all are working out our salvation with fear and trembling, in our own time and our own way. but i have to give you one piece of advice, actually, i implore you. please seriously reconsider ever having a child w someone who has BPD. the stories you hear about what the wives have done to the husbands - used their children as pawns to hurt their husbands... . are just terrifying. when the divorces happen, the laws are always on a woman's side. she may fight for sole custody. she may lie and say you beat her up and file a restraining order so you can't have access to your kid. and then your kid is stuck living with a totally crazy person who has no business even taking care of themselves, let alone a child. and then the child becomes a messed up adult. please, i beg you to think and think and think and reach out to some of the abused fathers on the staying board, who have been tortured, beaten down and destroyed, but cannot leave their children behind with a monster and hence are forced to take this treatment for decades.

dude, i am begging you- as a co-sufferer and BPDso laborer, reconsider bringing someone else into the picture who is unable to choose for themselves.   the pain of being a parent in these situations is beyond comprehension until you are living it. you think you hurt now? wait until you realize you can't protect your perfect, innocent baby from the big bad wolf.  :'(

[Tobefree]

Ditto what Seneca said. Have you read Co Dependent No More? Melody Beatty. An eye opener for me. And. Don't walk... . run. You will never make her happy. Not your job but we try and try and we lose ourselves... . I am finally leaving after 21 years of thinking I could make a difference.

[karma_gal]

I am on my phone and hate posting this way. H won't give me two minutes on computer so will come back when he goes to bed.

I hate that you are going through this and I feel a sense of defeat in your post. Are YOU okay?

I read a post yesterday - it may have been one if yours - that has been sighing on me today. Essentially it said simply by staying we are in a way enabling them, and we all know as long as we are around they have little to no motivation to work on themselves because we are always there to offload blame on. One thing I have started saying to my H lately and truly believe is that he will never et better within the confines of this marriage as a result. In some ways I think I am a trigger for him, in other ways he knows that there are certain messes I will always stress about and fix like $$$ issues. I am getting to the point where I believe the only way of saving both of us is to do what he never will and call it quits. That way I can heal and he has to sink or swim on his own.

It sounds like your GF isn't contributing very much at all to the relationship. As the others have said this will never be a good situation to bring a child into the mix. I don't remember how long you guys have been together but every post I have read so far indicates they get worse not better after marriage - and it is so much harder to get out.

I know what it is like going from crisis to crisis and never having time to think through anything. It makes it tough. Maybe you should try to sneak in a drive or other errand where you can go alone without her raging and just think. I have snuck in a few blocks of time the last few days - usually in the bathroom  - and just "sat" with things based on what I have learned since I have been here. It is amazing how much clarity comes when there is the chance to deal with it and think it through.

You know I am available by PM if you just need to talk or vent and we are all here with you every step of the way.

[Surnia]

Hi maxsterling

being undecided its a very hard place. Especially when you are reaching a point of seeing very clearly the whole dynamic. And when there is no improvement about the daily life tasks. 

I would be tired and exhausted too, Max. I think its time that you take care of yourself.

[maxen]

hi max. have you re-read your OP? can you hear your own frustration? i second everything everyone else has said. here's my experience.

And what we talked about doesn't really need to be talked about, because it should be commonly understood:  We won't have a baby if we can't afford it.  It's not responsible.

when we were planning to start a family, i said to her that raising a child takes money, and that she would have to discipline her spending (and her drinking and her laziness). her response: nothing. wouldn't engage my issue. but why should it even have to be raised? that's what drove me to paroxysms of frustration: the things that were problems shouldn't, by any objective standard of measure, have been problems. and because she wouldn't engage my issues i got cold feet, and we never had a child. months later (typical of her: not then, when she was feeling it, but months later) she cried about how hurt she was, and i'm certain she was, that's utterly reasonable, i'm certain i didn't handle it well (though how do you handle that sort of thing well?): but still not a word about the issues i raised. even after she betrayed me (in part because i was "ungenerous"!) she asserted that we didn't have a child because "you didn't think i was up to it." even after the end, no engagement. it's somebody else's fault (viz, mine).

every single person i've discussed this with has said "thank god you didn't have a child." my heart is forever broken not having a child (too late now) but as seneca said, there are horror stories. you can read them on the legal board. i knew it could be a nightmare, not just for the kid but for me. do you think this bit:

being dependent on me for happiness

would change? even after the therapist told her that the source of that wasn't with you, she brought i back around to you. what is she giving to you, to the r/s?

I think it may help to sit down with her and plan some kind of combined budget.

mine poutily refused to keep a record of her expenditures. do you think you could get your SO to co-operate? i suspect your responsible and mature ideas in that paragraph will be turned in her mind to "he's attacking me."

The harsh reality is - she's 38 - and I can almost guarantee she's not capable of loving herself, and never will be.

mine's 48 and she destroyed the most stable thing she ever had, not to mention my legitimate hopes for the future. as my T keeps telling me, it's characterological. you can't have a truly reciprocal r/s with a pwBPD.

max please consider the ways this can go wrong. i don't know the whole story of course but what are the chances that it could go right?

[looking4myself]

I echo Seneca's sentiment.  My kids are 13,11 and 8 and I'm seeing them fight and resist me on just about everything because this is the model my uBPDh and I have set for them.  Things won't change; she'll never understand and there will never be a breakthrough on her end.  I've been waiting and trying for 20 years to no avail.  I kicked my uBPDh out in Aug because I found ads he had been posting on Craigslist soliciting sex and many, many emails from and to women he 'met' there and had snuck out in the middle of the night to meet but stupid me invited him home a month later because I thought he had a breakthrough.  After two-weeks, things started slipping back to 'normal' and now, I want to vomit every time I hear his voice or even feel his presence.  I've learned that I'm in a recycle, btw.  At any rate, I had the perfect opportunity to end the relationship and I allowed myself to be duped again.  How I wish that I had found this board in August and had the strength to never let him come back.

The law will not be on your side and divorce is very expensive. 

I've read the undecided board, the staying board and the leaving board and it seems to me as if those who have left, are happiest. 

Don't waste your life trying to prove to her that you are worthy because you'll never win the game.  The only thing you can count on changing is you and one day you'll wake up and regret having wasted so much of your life.