Did she have BPD or was I withholding?

[deebob48]

Hi all,

I'm trying to make sense of a recent relationship that ended.  I have dated a previous partner with BPD traits, which makes this whole recent experience even more personally unsettling.  I am posting this in order to gain clarity about what happened.  I am trying to understand what role I played in this relationship not working out, and what role she played.  Thanks in advance for reading--I included a lot!

I met D three months ago.  On our first date, she called me adorable, and had a presence that I enjoyed being around.  At the time, I was pretty lonely.  We ended up making out for two hours in the back of her car, and I ended up with a couple of hickeys.   I was in complete bliss--so much female attention was fantastic.

The first month we dated, we were very clearly "nonexclusive."  This meant we did not have sex, but engaged in other sexual acts, some pretty kinky.    D was comfortable with having multiple partners simultaneously, but I was not.  D respected my boundaries in this way, unlike my previous partner with BPD traits.  D had spent the last year or two being poly, and enjoyed the freedom that lifestyle afforded her.  We had debates about the pros/cons of polyamory/monogamy.  Neither of us changed our views much during that time.  We were both leaving town in a few weeks, so we hung out as much as we could because of the limited time.  We were both into each other, and were both extremely sweet towards each other.  I appreciated her sexual openness, which contrasted with some shame I experience around sex.

Then, I left town, and we continued to stay in touch everyday.  Even though we were not "exclusive," I had bonded with her.  She embarked on a 3-week trip to Asia.  Before she left, she told me she was planning on visiting a former romantic partner, and they would likely have sex.  I told her I did not want to keep in touch with her while she was away.  This made her sad, but she respected my boundary for two days.  Then, she sent me a message two days after her departure that she had broken things off with the guy, and wanted to cut her trip short to come back and be with me.  I was shocked by this news.  Although I was flattered that this girl, whom I desired, would end her trip early to come back and be with me, I was taken aback by how quickly she decided she was going to come back, and then by how firm she was in her conviction that returning early was the right choice.  She mentioned she had spoken with some friends who advised her to return early, because otherwise she might jeopardize her relationship with me.

So then, once she returned, we were in an exclusive relationship.  Everything was great  for another week and a half.  There was one particular night she came over and hung out with me.  I remember feeling run down and exhausted after a long day.   I wanted to decompress and watch TV, but she wanted to chat, so I did that instead.  I didn't have much energy to put into being connected with her, so I imagine I cam across as aloof and disinterested, especially compared to how I had been before.  I think my infatuation for her was slowly dissipating, and I was trying to balance the responsibilities I have with my relationship with her.

She asked me the next day about whether I was distracted the night before.  I explained I was pretty drained from the week.  She told me that she'd prefer I let her know if I was feeling that way in the future, and that we didn't need to hang out if I was feeling that way.

The next week I was in a similar busy spot with my studies, and we didn't hang out as much as we had been the week previous.  In the middle of the week, I got a message from her asking me if I still had feelings for her.  I was surprised to get this message, because on my end absolutely nothing had changed, and I still liked D a ton.  I reassured her I did like her and she had nothing to worry about.  She used the fact that I hadn't called her immediately when she messaged me as proof that she wasn't a priority in my life.

The next weekend, she asked if she could come over for the weekend.  I said yeah, I'd like to see her.  I mentioned we were going on a ski trip for one of the days, and invited her.  Once I realized she didn't ski, I realized her coming along could end up being no fun for her, and I probably seemed unenthusiastic about her coming along as a result(I basically regretted inviting her).  I explained why I was hesitant for her to come along... . I was concerned she would have a bad time.   She said "you say you want to see me, but I don't feel that you're excited. You probably think I'm crazy for thinking that, so you should just break up with me."  I was surprised to hear her bring up the idea of breaking up in this context.

A week later, we went out for a wine tasting and heard a musician I was familiar with.  We saw a movie.  Later that night, she took me to this park where she had this romantic idea involving starting a small fire in the park.  I was concerned about the hazards of starting a small fire in a park after the park was closed.  I asked her if we could carry out her idea in another location.  She said yeah, and then burst into tears a minute later, saying that "I thought her idea was stupid" etc.

That night, she told me she thought I had lost enthusiasm for her too quickly, and that she didn't want to just be someone in my life, but someone I was excited about.  She said she thought enthusiasm should wane after 8 months or so, not after a month or two.  Looking back, I think my enthusiasm for her waned in part because I saw the dramatic way she responded to these situations.  She broke up with me, and left my house that night.  Even though I knew something wasn't quite right in our relationship, I was shocked she would end things, and felt abandoned.  The next day, she texted me saying she had changed her mind, and wanted to make things work.  I was surprised by this fast change in opinion too.  When asked, she said she broke up with me the night before because she was scared.

At this point, but throughout the relationship, she was very aware of how much eye contact I made with her, kissing, physical touching, etc.  Often, she would take my lack of eye contact or kissing etc. to mean I wasn't interested.  Towards the end of our time together, I started to become anxious or fearful when I was around her, and started thinking more about how she would respond to my actions than what I really wanted to do.

I continued to see her for another week, until we broke up after a talk about how our needs were different.  Her anxiety about whether I liked her made me feel claustrophobic, and less interested(in attachment-style terminology, she was displaying an anxious attachment style. and I was being avoidant.)  I was sad the night we broke up again, and she was sad too.  The next day, her and I ended up getting dinner.  When I acted as a friend towards her (ie. no physical contact) she was sad, and said she had hoped we would rekindle things.  I told her I needed space.

A week later after no communication, we talked online about our relationship.  I explained how I didn't feel safe with her after she broke up with me.  She questioned whether my reaction was overblown.

I had told her, especially towards the end of our relationship, that I have a challenging time with intimacy and can become withdrawn as a result.  I've also been in therapy for over two years trying to address this pattern.  In our last conversations, she blamed our relationship not working out on this "withdrawal."  In this context, the withdrawal really meant I wanted to spend more time alone than she did, especially due to my busy school schedule.

Some things she did that don't seem particularly BPD to me:  She never made fun of me, or put me down.  She would be upset about my behavior (ie. not attending to her as much as she wanted,) but was consistently positive and nonjudgemental regarding me.  She was also comfortable with me talking about other women I had dated in the past, and was even curious about that topic.

So some questions:

1) In total, do you think she had BPD?

2) From what I've written, how much of this relationship not working out is my fault vs. her fault?

3) Do you think she is capable of being in a healthy romantic relationship?

Thanks in advance for your time!

Matt

[woodsposse]

Hi Matt.

You pose some very interesting questions.  I'm no expert, but, from what I can gleen from all the literature BPD presents itself over time.  Without a lot more background or a lot more time, it would be difficult to say if she is or isn't - but also, and more important, I think (and it is my opinion only) that it is not a great idea for us to start diagnosing personality disorders.

That said... . BPD or not... . there are certain signs in the events you layed out which are almost WORD FOR WORD how my relationship with my diagnosed PD ex wife started.  Almost exactly.

As for your second question as to how much was your "fault" and her fault in the relationship not working... . well that's easy 50/50.

But that isn't the big picture.  The big picture is simply this - if it was making you uncomfortable... . then run.  If you are with someone and you have to start second guessing or modifying your behaviors in order to "get them to like you"... . run.   you shouldn't have to censor your thoughts, words, actions or attitude.

I totally get being tired.  I totally get being having a busy schedule.  Any rational person would understand that as well and proceed accordingly.

Lastly, and again, it would be unfair to put something on her - even based on your description - to say if she is or isn't capable of being in a healthy relationship.  But you are missing the bigger picture.

Are you capable of being in a healthy relationship - and do you know what a healthy relationship is?

From the sounds of it - what was going on between the two of you wasn't exactly the healthiest.  Not just because of her actions, but because of your own.  I understand you were in a lonely spot - but just because you are lonely and love the attention does not a healthy relationship make.

Don't get me wrong... . BPD is a beast.  But we are not just some mindless body walking down the road and people with Bpd just jump out of nowhere and attach themselves to us like some super silly body ghost dreamt up by L.Ron Hubbard.

No.  We have something in us as well which draws us to these types of relationships and allows us to put up with the chaos.

I have been with a very wonderful woman now for about a year and a half.  Trust me - if anything like you described had come up at anytime during this past year and a half, I would have run for the hills.  Of course I say this after being with my diagnosed PD spouse and I have seen all these signs over and over and over again.

Or it may just be she is immature and you are as well (by immature I mean younger folks).  That isn't meant to be a backhanded slam... . I just remember what it was like to be 19 and trying to get my groove on and not really knowing the ways of the world yet.

Hard to tell.

But, again, the bigger picture is - can you be in a healthy relationship and what does that look like for you?  I can honestly say I have no idea if I can be in a healthy relationship cause as I look back on it - I have never been in an healthy relationship before so I have no earthly idea what that looks like.

It certainly wasn't represented in my household when I was growing up.  Maybe the closest I know of a healthy relationship is watching reruns of The Brady Bunch  (that's kinda sad now that I see it written out... . sad indeed.  But exciting at the same time.  Now I get to learn what it is like cause I know the dark underside of a relationsip with PD folks.

Hope that helps.

[HealingForMe]

So some questions:

1) In total, do you think she had BPD?

2) From what I've written, how much of this relationship not working out is my fault vs. her fault?

3) Do you think she is capable of being in a healthy romantic relationship?

hey Matt,

I'm glad you're asking questions about this, I think you def also need to ask your therapist too.

1) IMO yes she does have BPD. The impulsivity, projection, insecurity, risk taking, clinging, hypervigilence, etc. Or to use the DSM criteria:

*frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment

*a pattern of unstable &intense relationships

*impulsivity

*mood swings, irritability & anxiety

You dont provide enough information for the other criteria, eg, unstable self image; suicidal behaviour or self-mutilation; chronic feelings of emptiness; difficulty controlling anger; paranoia or dissociation.

2) I disagree with woods posse, I dont think its 50/50. You are doing something about your issues & in a normal healthy r/s she would be supportive of you. But instead she pressured you in ways that made you feel uncomfortable.

You became unhappy with her responses to normal events such as being tired and other things she did.

I think your instincts were kicking in & telling you this was an unhealthy r/s, which it was. So I believe you did the right thing. I'm not about blame, so I'm not going to put a % figure on it, but all that matters is that you did the right thing by ending it. Don't blame yourself or feel guilty, BPDs do enough of that for us... . FOG

3) Yes, if she gets help. until then, probably not.

I think another thing you need to think about is that this is the second r/s you've had with a girl displaying signs of BPD. Try to use these experiences to increase your awareness of these signs before you begin a r/s. You were clever enough to end this one before it became serious, so well done for that 

[woodsposse]

2) I disagree with woods posse, I dont think its 50/50. You are doing something about your issues & in a normal healthy r/s she would be supportive of you. But instead she pressured you in ways that made you feel uncomfortable.

Allow me to clarify.  in any relationship it takes two people.  It then stands to reason there is an even split for the relationship.  This is not to place blame or to say it is "his fault" or "her fault".  It just takes two.

I openly and honestly appreciate disagreements in opinions - I just wanted to clarify that point in so far as saying that it takes two in a two person relationship to make it fly or not.

That said, I totally agree with everything written (and it was very well stated).

Here is a positive quick story to maybe help give hope to what a healthy r/s could look like (and mind you, I don't think I have ever had one - but this feels right so I'd like to share).

My current GF and I started dating soon after my ex left.  We met like people meet (she worked in a store  in the train station I took to and from work) and soon we started a friendly round of text... . which lead to a first date for coffee... . first kiss... . and so on.

I told her my back story - she told me hers.  Once my ex found out I was moving on - she came busting back in and tried to screw everything up but that didn't happen as I wasn't about to give up on my new life for the old chaos.

Anyway... . my GF knew I was still dealing with the residual junk and allowed me space to deal with it in whatever the time I needed.  She was loving and supportive. Not jealous or demanding.  We enjoyed our time together and our relationship - apart from my process of detachment - and our relationship developed very organically and day by day.

It really has been a wonderful time I have spent with her.

I am supportive of her goals - and she is supportive of mine.  In the 18 months we have been together we have had one "conflict"... . and even that was resolved within a day.  We are open with each other and desire communication above anything else.

Due to our conflicting schedules sometimes we only get to see each other a few times a week - and sometimes it is only to meet for coffee for about an hour... . and those are wonderful times as well as the other times we get to spend together.

So it is possible.

[deebob48]

Thanks for the replies!

NachaLuva... . thanks!  About the criteria I didn't include info about... .

--unstable self image: she needed lots of reassurance, so I think perhaps... .

--suicidal behaviour or self-mutilation: never mentioned

--chronic feelings of emptiness: she was on anti-depressants, and was actually trying to come off her meds on her own, which had to be extremely challenging to do alone.  so yes for this one!

--difficulty controlling anger: yep!  she talked about how her anger could be destructive in relationships.  she would get angry over things that seemed unimportant to me, and then need to physically leave the situation because she on some level knew the anger was irrational.  simultaneously, she purposefully would cut communication with me during these times to make me feel as though i had done something wrong.  this only happened a few times, but enough to be a clear red flag.

--paranoia or dissociation: some paranoia around abandonment.

Woods Posse--I appreciate your posts.  I also enjoyed what you wrote about your new relationship--that gives me hope! 

You're one step ahead of what I was writing.  I am totally on to the fact that I tend to be attracted to these women in a way that feels compulsive and utterly engrossing (at the beginning of the relationship, at least). It's interesting (and entirely infuriating... . ), my best friend when I was growing up likely had NPD.  I became used to being devalued, then feeling like the center of the world, on and on.  At this point in time, I am emotionally healthy enough to not allow myself to be in an unstable/abusive relationship.  Well, actually, I wish I could have been more direct with her about how it wasn't working.  Instead, I think my emotional self withdrew well before I intellectually understood the relationship was doomed.  But regardless, I will not allow myself to be in an emotionally unstable/unhealthy relationship.

AND YET!  The women I tend to be extremely attracted to seem to be women who are emotionally intense/unstable/have BPD traits.  I have found that when I'm around women who might be more "normal," I lose attraction/interest in them pretty quickly.  And then eventually, I find someone like my most recent ex, D!  Agh!  What a frustrating pattern.  Have you all experienced this? Any tips, ideas, books, etc.?  What has kept you from future relationships with a BPD?

[woodsposse]

AND YET!  The women I tend to be extremely attracted to seem to be women who are emotionally intense/unstable/have BPD traits.  I have found that when I'm around women who might be more "normal," I lose attraction/interest in them pretty quickly.  And then eventually, I find someone like my most recent ex, D!  Agh!  What a frustrating pattern.  Have you all experienced this? Any tips, ideas, books, etc.?  What has kept you from future relationships with a BPD?

For me... . and this is just my opinion as it fits into my life and what I have learned (or uncovered) since coming to this board - the key is understanding the pattern and what made it a pattern for me.

That is to say, as I look back on how my first and second marriage started - they pretty much started the exact same way.  A woman got all into me, very intense, very fast.  For my part in it - I swear I was being upfront and open about who I was... . even telling them "This is me".  They accepted it, liked it... . and we were off to the races.

Then the "problems" began.

Drama, arguments, illogical assumptions, being needy/clingy - speak of "love", "soul mates", wanting to move in/get married talk started really early.  Of course I was into it - I mean, who wouldn't.  But the problem (at this point) wasn't them.  It was me.  Why was I seduced and so ready to jump in so fast?

As I look back on it now, yes there was feelings of love... . and I loved them  and cared about them - so it made it "easy" to stay and put up with the issues.  Not having known about the affects of depression or any other PD... . I thought what we were going through was just normal relationship stuff.

So I tried, like we all have probably, to logic my way through it - try to make it make sense - put up with the devaluing and second guess myself.

I'm no Einstein - but I know what happiness and love is.  And when I wasn't getting it, a major part of me wants to bail.  So when they circle back and put me back up on the pedestal... . it feels great.  But the fall hurts.

So... . my tip would be - spend some time with you.

Maybe one of the reasons a "normal" r/s doesn't seem to have that spark is because you are drawn to and want the chaos.  Maybe not consciously - but... . maybe.  Why is that?  Well, only you can answer that (and it usually has something to do with your FOO). 

There are tonnes of great links here on this site to read and the other stores, of course.

I wish I knew then what I know now about BPD or the effects of being with a clinically depressed person.  I may have been in a place to better handle the r/s armed with some tools to help deal with it.  Maybe not.  But now I know, again for me, why I stayed and why I couldn't easily  walk away.

I'm working on me now.  I'm spending the time I need to make it so I'm fine with my world and anyone who enters it.  I want to be the best me I can be... . not just for any r/s I may have - just because I deserve to be happy.

And I'm happy.  Believe me - I'm happy.

So why would I invite anyone in who can and will take that from me (again).  I know I can't and don't want to be recycled again by my ex.  Outside of the devastation she caused... . I don't feel like getting back on that roller coaster with her (or anyone).

That is what keeps me from getting or being in an unhealthy relationship.

I hope you find more of what you are seeking.  I'm sure it is here somewhere.  And I'm sure you will find it.