Why am I looking for a rational explanation?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Why if i believe that i was with someone who was disordered with BPD am i still looking for a rational explanation of why our break up was so complicated. I mean i've got the info, I get it but I still keep trying to figure it out.  I have read info on this too but i can't find it again.  Is it the acceptance part i am lacking?

Is it because I haven't detached yet ? Am i still addicted to the craziness and drama? Is it because I haven't created enough of a new life for myself yet? Or all of the above and more?

Anyone have anything to help me with this?  Maybe somehow , it will finally get thru if i hear it again.

ugh !

[corraline]

Why if i believe that i was with someone who was disordered with BPD am i still looking for a rational explanation of why our break up was so complicated. I mean i've got the info, I get it but I still keep trying to figure it out.  I have read info on this too but i can't find it again.  Is it the acceptance part i am lacking?

Is it because I haven't detached yet ? Am i still addicted to the craziness and drama? Is it because I haven't created enough of a new life for myself yet? Or all of the above and more?

Anyone have anything to help me with this?  Maybe somehow , it will finally get thru if i hear it again.

ugh !

[talithacumi]

The first question I'd ask is what does understanding actually entail for you.

I grew up with a NPD/BPD mom whose actions were negligent, reckless, irresponsible, unpredictable, violent, and cruel. Any expression of uncertainty, doubt, criticism, disappointment, discomfort, confusion, frustration, resentment, anger, or hurt about the way her actions might or already had effected was met with a lengthy, if not angry/violent, explanation of why it was necessary for her to act the way she did that invariably involved taking care of, or trying to please me in some way. This was followed by various statements designed to invalidate/shame me into actively repressing those feelings, take responsibility for making her do whatever she'd done, apologize to/comfort her for how bad doing them on my behalf had obviously made her feel as well as for how much worse I'd made her feel by expressing the feelings I had, and do whatever was necessary to take care of all the problems/repair whatever damage she'd caused in her efforts to please me.

Sound familiar?

Me "understanding" why my mom hurt me allowed her to not have to feel bad about, or take any responsibility for having hurt me in the first place.

More to the point, though, it also robbed me of the right to feel hurt and, therefore, very effectively not actually feel hurt either.

No amount of understanding this disorder, and the role it played in the dynamics of both my relationship and breakup with my ex, EVER made it stop hurting - and, for me, all that did, for the longest time, was drive me to try to understand it even more from as many different perspectives as I possibly could until I finally figured out that understanding why someone hurt me NOT ONLY didn't EVER make it okay for them to have hurt me in the first place, but it also didn't make it NOT hurt either.

You know why you're hurt. You've got the memories of all the really confusing/painful things you've experienced burned hot/deep in your heart. You know why your ex hurt you. You've informed yourself sick on this disorder and the behavior it tends to involve.

The why's and their answers just distract you from what both of those things have in common: your hurt.

You're hurt.

You have every right to feel that way.

Feel it and allow yourself to start moving on.

- TC

[goldylamont]

talithacumi, wow that was a great and powerful post.

corraline, it may help if you could briefly let us know a little more about what happened. specifically timewise--how long was your r/s, how long ago was your split. and just a small bit about yourself--did you suffer from issues before ever having met this person? have you been in r/s such as this before? i'm sure you've posted this many times, excuse me for not reading your previous posts yet, but a few sentences for a brief timeline and where you are at now can give some context. i suspect that there is nothing 'wrong' per se, but just that over time the cycles of grief/anger/sadness seem to not make sense--until you see that actually most others went through the same thing.

[coolioqq]

What talithacumi said makes great sense.

@Corraline: The obvious answer to the question in the name of your topic is that, as a rational person, you want a rational explanation . I want it too and it's because we're hurt as talithacumi said. We want to understand what exactly was wrong. Pain makes us obsess sometimes. I'm very guilty of that. My family sees it very well - my obsession with what happened. I talked to my friends about it, but very briefly as they could not really relate. They just said: ":)ude, you entered a relationship with a mentally ill person, stop thinking about it so much... . What did you expect?" Well, they are right and they answered the question for me. I am looking to find a rational explanation around a relationship with a human vortex rather than a concise and rational person. It's a little bit like making sense of the Twilight Zone... .

My family sees my obsession as I can't keep shut about it (I seriously get on my nerves with that  ), but they still listen to me because they are really wonderful people. When I start talking out loud rehashing a billion times over and stop out of embarassment of talking so muchh about it, they just say: "keep talking because you need to... . It will go away, just trust us on that." And it is going away. The point is, you need someone to listen to you. I had a prof back in college that said: "The best thing you can ever do for a person in distress is just sit down, listen and relate." It stuck with me and has been defining my sense of empathy and reason ever since.

On a related note, I think some Ts rush their patients into recovery by forcing them to rationalize and empathize way too soon. Grieving takes time, and all that we are experiencing are normal things. We need to know... .

[Take2]

I'm stuck on this too

I'm stuck on trying to understand something thst can't really be explained

I'm stuck on trying to make him see reality

Where did kind words of how I feel get me ?

Blocked.

Severe pain there... .

[goldylamont]

I'm stuck on this too

I'm stuck on trying to understand something thst can't really be explained

I'm stuck on trying to make him see reality

Where did kind words of how I feel get me ?

Blocked.

Severe pain there... .

over time i feel like i've been able to find an explanation for what happened. it took months and discussing with others, reading, etc... . but i do feel like i understand what occurred. do you think the issue is that you don't understand BPD? perhaps this has to more to do with acceptance than understanding. rationalizing things for me i think allowed me to release my attachments. but part of this rationalizing was accepting the truth--not what i wanted to be true, but what was true. accepting this brought up many emotions which have taken a while to process--but it allowed me to start moving on the path. if you are stuck trying to make him see reality--can you accept the truth that this is impossible, an unfruitful task? by accepting this you can move through all the emotions necessary to detach.

[Take2]

perhaps this has to more to do with acceptance than understanding.

You hit the nail on the head here... .   I understand BPD pretty well.  I've done a tons and tons of reading and learning.  And at the end of the day it does boil down to me not wanting to accept it.  The intermittent reinforcement he has given me thru the years of shutting me out but quickly letting me back in is what is truly keeping me from moving forward thru acceptance.  Each time I was pulled back in I let myself believe again even tho every time I KNEW it was not possible.  To now feel like it's finally done.  It's truly hard to accept that part of it because the reasoning makes no sense.  I need to accept that it's never going to be fair... . and that's a tough one... .

[Aussie0zborn]

Maybe you're still looking for a rational explanation because you yourself are a rational person. Maybe you had no real closure?

I found rational explanations for everything I experienced through these  forums and my T.  Once you have made a new life for yourself all this will be dead and buried. Therapy speeds up that process.

[goldylamont]

perhaps this has to more to do with acceptance than understanding.

You hit the nail on the head here... .  I understand BPD pretty well.  I've done a tons and tons of reading and learning.  And at the end of the day it does boil down to me not wanting to accept it.  The intermittent reinforcement he has given me thru the years of shutting me out but quickly letting me back in is what is truly keeping me from moving forward thru acceptance.  Each time I was pulled back in I let myself believe again even tho every time I KNEW it was not possible.  To now feel like it's finally done.  It's truly hard to accept that part of it because the reasoning makes no sense.  I need to accept that it's never going to be fair... . and that's a tough one... .

absolutely. right now i feel confident in saying that i've accepted who she is and the role i played. so i feel confident in not getting sucked back in. however this acceptance brings on the natural sadness and anger over what transpired. and these emotions have lessened... . at the pace of a SNAIL it seems   but still i am grateful as my situation could have been much worse.

thinking this through, i think acceptance actually opens the flood gates to allow you to feel the grief/sadness/anger that you already feel, without being inhibited with false hope, a temporary band-aid. so it doesn't feel good, but it is good as it is the sign of healing. i think an analogy to a physical injury, say a sprained ankle is a good example. if you sprain your ankle, and it hurts like hell, you will walk lightly, feel the pain and ice it down. doesn't feel good but it's letting you know it needs to heal. but, if you didn't accept that your ankle was sprained, you'd be more likely to walk on it more, doing more damage that would take it longer to heal in the long run... . at some point we have to accept and feel the painful cleanse.

i'm most of the way out, but still a ways to go!

[Cardinals in Flight]

Maybe that's what is happening to me now, profound grief = acceptance. God I hope so!

[goldylamont]

Maybe that's what is happening to me now, profound grief = acceptance. God I hope so!

yes, you are on the right path Cardinals in Flight! Below is an excerpt from a book that i truly love that outlines our different emotions. perhaps this can give some perspective. i highly recommend checking out this book. hope you enjoy:

Chapter 21: Grief

The Deep River of the Soul

GIFTS Complete immersion in the river of all souls

THE INTERNAL QUESTIONS What must be mourned? What must be released completely?

SIGNS OF OBSTRUCTION Unwillingness to accept or honor loss, death, or profound transitions

PRACTICE

Stop, drop everything, and ask your internal questions. When the river of the soul takes your weight unto itself, you can release that which has died into the next world so that you may live more fully in this one. Grief is a beautiful, languid, and powerful emotion that arises when death occurs, be it actual death or the death of profound attachments, ideas, or relationships. Grief does not simply bring water to you as sadness does; grief drops you directly into the river of all souls. Grief transports you to the deepest places when you have no choice but to let go, when the loss of vital relationships or vital attachments feels like (or is) death itself. Grief will come forward in response to death, the end of a love relationship, the irretrievable loss of your health or well-being, the loss of a cherished goal or possession, or the stunning betrayal of your trust. Grief will also arise in response to never having had something we’re all supposed to take for granted, such as health, strength, security, or a happy childhood. Grief enables you to survive losses by immersing you in the deep river that flows underneath all life. If you can’t move into your grief, you’ll only experience destabilization and dissociation in response to the shock of loss, injustice, inequity, and death, instead of being cleansed and renewed in the river of all souls.

THE MESSAGE IN GRIEF

When I call grief the deep river of the soul, I mean the soul; I mean the fully resourced village that incorporates and integrates our bodies, all of our emotions, all of our multiple intelligences, and all of our dreams and visions. Grief is so powerful, I think, because it has the job of defending our bodies and our emotions against the cultural training that makes our intellects and visionary spirits so domineering. Our visionary selves cannot connect fully to grief because they see no death and no loss. They soar into the future and above the world as it is; therefore, they don’t really mourn or grieve death. If we overemphasize our fiery visionary aspects, we’ll have a hard time connecting to grief, just as we will if we hide in our airy intellects. Our logical and linguistic intelligences usually try to circle around and dissipate grief; they like to talk about death and loss, find reasons for it, and make everything seem logical and tidy, which is the opposite movement to that which grief requires. Grief asks us to become quiet and stop all forward movement so that we may dive into the depths, but the intellect doesn’t know how to go deep—not like the emotions can. The intellect usually tries to lift us out of the water and dry us off before we’ve really immersed ourselves in grief. Our bodies and our emotions, on the other hand, have a visceral understanding of death and loss. They can no longer touch or see the dead, yet they can still feel the embrace of a lost lover or hear the laughter of a long-dead child. Our bodies miss lost limbs and remember pain.

Our bodies and our emotions experience the reality of injury, loss, separation, injustice, and death every day. These two elements know grief, which means they can act as our guides and mentors. If we can stay grounded in our bodies and stop ourselves from flying off into purely spiritual or intellectual distractions in response to grief, we’ll be able to receive the astounding healing grief offers. Though this sacred, downward grieving movement is vanishing from our society, it is an absolutely necessary movement—for our own souls, certainly, but also for the souls of our loved ones, our ancestors, and our world... .

McLaren, Karla (2010-06-01). The Language of Emotions (pp. 311-312). Sounds True. Kindle Edition.

[Sunny Side]

Thanks, goldy, this sounds like an interesting and helpful read.  Post BPD r/s, my stack of books is growing and this is a good thing  .   

Silly as it sounds, I tend to look at this as one of the many "rewards" to crawl towards among the ruins of a BPD r/s.  If we can scrape ourselves (literally) off the psychic battlefield and find safe quarter there is much wisdom and grace to be discovered.  In the meantime though, it still feels good to be majorly pissed off  !

[HappyNihilist]

Goldy, thank you so much for sharing that excerpt on grief! That is absolutely beautiful and really hit me hard. I had tears while reading it. What a touching way to look at the grieving process, and how very true that we have to let go of our higher intellect to really delve into our emotional pain.

Why if i believe that i was with someone who was disordered with BPD am i still looking for a rational explanation of why our break up was so complicated. I mean i've got the info, I get it but I still keep trying to figure it out.  I have read info on this too but i can't find it again.  Is it the acceptance part i am lacking?

Is it because I haven't detached yet ? Am i still addicted to the craziness and drama? Is it because I haven't created enough of a new life for myself yet? Or all of the above and more?

Anyone have anything to help me with this?  Maybe somehow , it will finally get thru if i hear it again.

ugh !

It might help to explore exactly what is complicated for you. Are you talking more about the dynamics and specifics of the breakup itself (the lack of closure, the sudden change from love to hate), or more about your reactions and feelings?

Sadly, I don't think many, if any, of us will ever receive closure or explanations from our expwBPD. We have to look for our own closure.

[Cardinals in Flight]

Thank you Goldy.  I think I am grieving, albeit in very delayed fashion.  I believe what put me here was "hope"... . I've always believed where there is life, there is hope.  That doesn't apply in our BPD world.  Loss of hope, and the actual acknowledgment of that loss is a profoundly, gut wrenching, bring you to your knees kinda grief.

CiF

[willy45]

Yes. I agree.

I think the need to understand is what makes a healthy person healthy. It is the need to write a script and a narrative that makes sense to us. We need a script about ourselves that makes sense, otherwise you become ill.

So, in the nonsense that is BPD, I think it our natural inclination to try to understand so that it can start making sense in our minds. The only problem is that with BPD, there is NO sense. None. Who the h*ll knows what goes on in their heads. At the end of the day, do you really WANT to understand? I don't think so. That would be terrible. But still, we try.

My thinking around this is that the need to understand is more about a need to understand and write our own narratives about ourselves. I know for me, my sense of self and who I was was almost completely destroyed. I was so confused and I was engaging in so many bad things for me as a way to cope. Yet, I kept going back. It is this going back that has me so utterly confused about myself. But, understanding them is never going to happen. That, in and of itself, is a form of understanding. Understanding there is nothing you could have done about it, nothing you can do about it, and nothing you can ever do about it. That's it. Understanding exactly how they tick, what they are thinking, and how they function is a futile. They don't even understand.

Here's a little nugget that my ex dropped on me once. We were making out and I was looking up at her and she flipped around in 5 or 6 different emotional states in the period of 3 minutes. She was being sexy. Then sweet. Then sad. Then angry. Then happy. They joking around. Then sexy again. Then not. I could see it on her face. It was morphing around like crazy. I told her to stop making out with me as it was confusing. She agreed. And her response: "Well, think about how I feel!"

That about sums it up. I could not think about how she felt. I had NO IDEA what was going on. None. And I didn't even try. She couldn't know. So how could I?

[coolioqq]

Here's a little nugget that my ex dropped on me once. We were making out and I was looking up at her and she flipped around in 5 or 6 different emotional states in the period of 3 minutes. She was being sexy. Then sweet. Then sad. Then angry. Then happy. They joking around. Then sexy again. Then not. I could see it on her face. It was morphing around like crazy. I told her to stop making out with me as it was confusing. She agreed. And her response: "Well, think about how I feel!"

My dBPDexgf made such faces too, in short timespans. But, one facial gesture that she made when all hell broke loose will stick with me forever. Her eyes crossed diabolically, her face twitched and she went into a fetal pose (fight or flight syndrome - usually does not happen at such a primitive level to normal people). I could swear that she is demonically possessed or some crap like that... . I've read similar stories on this board... .

[Take2]

My ex's face also totally changed when he was in rage/crazy mode.  Not just rage mode as that was pretty standard for him.  But there is a level or place or something where he turns into a total off the charts crazy angry person.  When it happens, his face literally looks different.  And while that look isn't there when he's back to "normal" - I can still see it when he would text me even just smiling pix of himself.  Not sure why but even in "normal" mode and sending me pix, I could see it in the pictures... .   It's a scary and bizarre thing to see... .   and it took almost 4 years of knowing him until I truly saw that start to happen - even though he'd been off the charts angry and irrational for years, the levels just continued until that started happening... .