Are they aware and playing off the illness aka using it as a weapon?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Ok so a friend tried to tell me for about a year that my DBPD ex was aware and making conscious decisions. I am starting to think they are or at least mine was.

So far since her suicide attempt or should I say fake one I had cut her out of my life and changed my number and everything possible u can think of as far as contact method. She showed up at my place a couple of months ago at 2am. I let her in worried about her thinking she must be in trouble to come here after i told her to stay out. Of course this somehow turned into another recycle. Stupid me yes I know I believed the sob performance she put on about how she had been hospitalized again and was at a super low point.

After that she got into some conflict over the phone with her father of some sort and ended up hospitalized again. I found out by calling her cellphone and he picked up. I visited her in the hospital all the time and called each day for support I also organized for who I believe her one and only true friend to visit her as well. I exchanged numbers with her sister at the hospital ond visit and even brought a christmas nothing much just a small stuffed animal becuz I didnt know what they would let her have in the hospital being it was for suicide attempt or should I say fake suicide attempt number 2.


My BPD ex used to work for toys r us hr in the benefits department specializing in medical leave. Coincidentally after the christmas visit her sister spoke with me after the visit and asked if My ex was trying to abuse her medical leave becuz her father thought so. I told her probably not becuz im stupid I guess and wasnt thinking . The most recent indication of awareness was when I was supposed to see her for the weekend or was setting it up. Earlier on that day she made many sexual remarks. When i said im taking off on friday to go to court she said she was busy. I said what avout saturday and she said she was trying to hang with a friend in the day time. The key word friend gave me discomfort in my stomach for some reason but I brushed it off being that I really despise being or acting jealous. I then said ok u tell me when is good. She said saturday night and sunday night or thursday. I told her ok i can do both saturday and sunday.


Jokingly I said is my little p**** going to bd tight . She somehow weaseled and argument a couple of exchanges of text later and said shes still scared if she gets md mad that she could end up inthe hospital. I said ok so lets both treat each other with patience and kindness and think before we react. She then raged and ended up blocking me. Two weeks ago i finally got in contact with her and asked her what the heck is going on here it doesnt make sense evenfor her. She basically blamed it on the doctors saying they told her to do it and that she herself was being courteous becuz she sent me a text before she did such.


So last weekend i was cracking and apoke with her on saturday. The phone conveniently hung up in mid convo and then the ohone was off. The next day i went frantic trying ti reach her over and over again like a loser. I went on facebook and even though she has her settings as private typed in recent pics of my BPD ex. And saw her with a new guy with a cross pendant chain that is not her style but rather his style judging from looking at his type of jewlery. Also he was holding her hand in ond of the pics and besides that the recent tattos on her arms were reminiscent of the one on his arm.

So it is clear to me that she premeditated an argument thinking she was gonna get caught or was ready to full fledge switch off to the new guy and start using his resources since i was exausted and depleted. Plus its clear to md that her father was right and she was purposefully working the system to collect medical leave. Plus its clear to me what my own father initially tried to tell me that she faked the first suicide attempt while i was downstairs in front of her buildong smoking a cigg. My father tried to tell me to smarten up if she wanted to die shes not going to swallow pills when u go downstairs knowing ur coming back up in five mins. Im also almost certain she was lying about what the therapists were saying they didnt tell her to block me. Shes also lying about trying to heal. Shes just looking to use someone again and back to the same crap. Also i have been blocked before and am thinking this was being done everytime. Spark an argument that makes no sense play off the sickness as to cause confusion and then try to replace and if that fails she can always just blame it on the sickness as a fall back. Might i add i read something on them picking weaker prey the next time around and looking at this guys pics compared to myself he is way less attractive really short, bald, and not fit like me. Honestly though im not mad at him at all judging from his posts he seems like a nice guy and it really makes me mad. I almost want to warn him. What disgusted me the most today is that on one of his post in march one month after tekling me she cant live without me blah blah blah. She sent him a color heart followed by a kissie face. Her favorite color is purple and i used to send her a purple heart. She sent him a green one which i guess is his fav color. That is my personal signature sign of affection that was unique only to my personality type. What type of scum bag steals something like that from me that is so personal to use on someone else. I think they are aware very aware of what they are doing. Im fighting so hard to not warn this dude. I also want to know that she was f****** us both. Im so pissed off .



Anyone else think they are aware?

[AG]

Ok so a friend tried to tell me for about a year that my DBPD ex was aware and making conscious decisions. I am starting to think they are or at least mine was.

So far since her suicide attempt or should I say fake one I had cut her out of my life and changed my number and everything possible u can think of as far as contact method. She showed up at my place a couple of months ago at 2am. I let her in worried about her thinking she must be in trouble to come here after i told her to stay out. Of course this somehow turned into another recycle. Stupid me yes I know I believed the sob performance she put on about how she had been hospitalized again and was at a super low point.

After that she got into some conflict over the phone with her father of some sort and ended up hospitalized again. I found out by calling her cellphone and he picked up. I visited her in the hospital all the time and called each day for support I also organized for who I believe her one and only true friend to visit her as well. I exchanged numbers with her sister at the hospital ond visit and even brought a christmas nothing much just a small stuffed animal becuz I didnt know what they would let her have in the hospital being it was for suicide attempt or should I say fake suicide attempt number 2.


My BPD ex used to work for toys r us hr in the benefits department specializing in medical leave. Coincidentally after the christmas visit her sister spoke with me after the visit and asked if My ex was trying to abuse her medical leave becuz her father thought so. I told her probably not becuz im stupid I guess and wasnt thinking . The most recent indication of awareness was when I was supposed to see her for the weekend or was setting it up. Earlier on that day she made many sexual remarks. When i said im taking off on friday to go to court she said she was busy. I said what avout saturday and she said she was trying to hang with a friend in the day time. The key word friend gave me discomfort in my stomach for some reason but I brushed it off being that I really despise being or acting jealous. I then said ok u tell me when is good. She said saturday night and sunday night or thursday. I told her ok i can do both saturday and sunday.


Jokingly I said is my little p**** going to bd tight . She somehow weaseled and argument a couple of exchanges of text later and said shes still scared if she gets md mad that she could end up inthe hospital. I said ok so lets both treat each other with patience and kindness and think before we react. She then raged and ended up blocking me. Two weeks ago i finally got in contact with her and asked her what the heck is going on here it doesnt make sense evenfor her. She basically blamed it on the doctors saying they told her to do it and that she herself was being courteous becuz she sent me a text before she did such.


So last weekend i was cracking and apoke with her on saturday. The phone conveniently hung up in mid convo and then the ohone was off. The next day i went frantic trying ti reach her over and over again like a loser. I went on facebook and even though she has her settings as private typed in recent pics of my BPD ex. And saw her with a new guy with a cross pendant chain that is not her style but rather his style judging from looking at his type of jewlery. Also he was holding her hand in ond of the pics and besides that the recent tattos on her arms were reminiscent of the one on his arm.

So it is clear to me that she premeditated an argument thinking she was gonna get caught or was ready to full fledge switch off to the new guy and start using his resources since i was exausted and depleted. Plus its clear to md that her father was right and she was purposefully working the system to collect medical leave. Plus its clear to me what my own father initially tried to tell me that she faked the first suicide attempt while i was downstairs in front of her buildong smoking a cigg. My father tried to tell me to smarten up if she wanted to die shes not going to swallow pills when u go downstairs knowing ur coming back up in five mins. Im also almost certain she was lying about what the therapists were saying they didnt tell her to block me. Shes also lying about trying to heal. Shes just looking to use someone again and back to the same crap. Also i have been blocked before and am thinking this was being done everytime. Spark an argument that makes no sense play off the sickness as to cause confusion and then try to replace and if that fails she can always just blame it on the sickness as a fall back. Might i add i read something on them picking weaker prey the next time around and looking at this guys pics compared to myself he is way less attractive really short, bald, and not fit like me. Honestly though im not mad at him at all judging from his posts he seems like a nice guy and it really makes me mad. I almost want to warn him. What disgusted me the most today is that on one of his post in march one month after tekling me she cant live without me blah blah blah. She sent him a color heart followed by a kissie face. Her favorite color is purple and i used to send her a purple heart. She sent him a green one which i guess is his fav color. That is my personal signature sign of affection that was unique only to my personality type. What type of scum bag steals something like that from me that is so personal to use on someone else. I think they are aware very aware of what they are doing. Im fighting so hard to not warn this dude. I also want to know that she was f****** us both. Im so pissed off .



Anyone else think they are aware?

[AwakenedOne]

Don't know if I fully understand what your asking. My wife is an undiagnosed BPD.

All I know for sure is she will blame everybody and everything in the world before she takes any blame herself. As far as premeditation goes, she started arguments to basically sabotage any chance of us working out.  Like during a walk in the park while "we" were attempting to save our marriage she started cr*p.

I really don't think we are ever going to understand them man. Lies, lies and more lies is what I got. Think twice before you warn that other guy, might end up stirring up more trouble than its worth. Actually mine admitted being very selfish. But didn't give a cr*p. I asked her how do you justify this behavior? Response was gibberish non answer / I am at fault for everything in the world.

[goldylamont]

AG, many folks here will tell you that pwBPD are not aware of what they do. that they don't understand the extent of the pain they cause others, etc. i for one, think this is BS 

well... . not all the time of course. not in every case. if we think of young people, say teens/early twenties, i could imagine simply being young you may not be self aware of much of what you're doing. still you'd have some awareness at this age though.

then, there's the fact that pwBPD will simply imagine things happening that aren't true at all. or distort reality in their heads to have a negative outcome. so it's a slippery slope, since with a disordered mind it's hard to prove/disprove awareness of issues. on top of this, add the lies, lies, lies and who really knows what's true, right?

all of this is to say, while you can't say for certain what anyone thinks or feels, i think it's either quite naive or an act of repression to say that in general pwBPD aren't aware of their manipulations. since we can't generalize for all, i will say reading your post, i would absolutely say that your ex knows what she's doing. she knows enough of the time to have fooled you this long. it's a learned skill and sometimes it's so ingrained they may do it before thinking, but yeah, they know (by "they" i mean a good portion).

with my ex i feel there were terrible things she did but not overtly to try to hurt me, and then there were things that i know damn well she did on purpose and she knew it.

not everyone here has experienced purposeful-punishment by their SO with BPD, so sometimes i hear push back that pwBPD aren't aware of what they are doing. usually this is followed up with some lightly (unintentional) shaming questions like "it doesn't matter if they are aware or not. question is why do you stay if you felt this way? um, what's wrong with you?" -- in these cases i feel people are really trying to help, but i think it's hard for someone who hasn't experienced purposeful-punishment to understand that healing, for those of us who have experienced it, depends on understanding and accepting this. for me it was a big deal to get to the bottom of this on my journey.

if your ex is diagnosed then this is even a bigger clue that she knows what she's doing, at least much of the time. if she is a convincing liar then this is a big clue that she knows what she's doing. but more than any of this, if your gut is telling you that it's true this is probably the biggest instinct you can count on--trust it. trust your father for god's sake!  and her father. and others who see.

if you get me riled up i'll find some posts that i've seen some pwBPD post about just how aware they are of what they do, how they do it and how good they are at it. reading those is what put me at ease with this question.

[goldylamont]

ok, so i found these in my earlier post--it's actually more appropriate here since you are directly asking the question whether *some* (not all all the time) pwBPD are aware of their behaviors. let me know what you think after reading some stuff they have posted. these are answers to a question someone asked about why there is a notion that pwBPD are physically attractive:


"The thing about BPD is it comes with an amazing talent for manipulation.

I'm not particularly attractive, but I can wrap men around my finger like string... . because I can get int heir heads.

That's all it is. Smoke and mirrors.

... .

It's just something that I can do... . I'm... . charming I guess.

I mimic their personalities about perfectly within 30 minutes of meeting them and they think we're a match made in heaven.

I'm not really sure what it is about the mimicing but you can hook ANYONE with it... .

For a while, anyway."

or maybe this one... .

"This might seem extremely depressing, but a lot of people with BPD have some self-harming tendencies that result in them conforming to our society's beauty standards. Symptoms of anorexia and bulimia are not uncommon; and yes, they do tend to make women look thin, and to a lot, more attractive. I've personally gone through that and compulsive exercice, and after losing a good 25 pounds in a month, men started looking at me differently, and I got a lot of compliments on my "new figure".

BPD sufferers are often survivors of abuse; and a recurrent theme amongst abuse survivors is control. When life gets completely out of hand, one of the few comforts is the ability to do whatever one wants with his or her body. Such control over own's image can, yes, result in a nice appearance.

First and foremost, though, there's the manipulation aspect brought up in the above post."

... .

"As a borderline, I am extremely self-conscious. I feel inadequate and a lot of that is attributed to the way I look, almost as if I attribute self-worth to attractiveness. Therefore, I go the extra mile to look good and be in control. This includes controlling my weight, which has kept me in a cycle of eating disorders for most of my life. I can't speak for all borderlines, but in my case my attractiveness is a product of a distorted self-image, of feeling like everyone is staring at me and judging me based on how I look, and my tendency toward perfectionism.

What I am really trying to do is make myself beautiful on the outside because I feel so ugly on the inside. It's all superficial, a mask that I can hide behind. To be honest, I would give anything to just be happy and confident. "

... .

"hmm. I may be the exception to the rule here. I am not particularly attractive and i dont spend any time or money on making myself look better. On the other hand, i know from online dating years ago that i could make strong connections really easily by being who they wanted me to be. I was not aware of what i was doing at the time. It did make for some relationships where attraction was so strong before meeting that looks really did not matter. Was always too shy to try it in real life. "


... .

"I guess I'll be the token male in this issue . . .

I put effort into being attractive. The logic is that I have no personality, so I have to have something interesting to offer.

Lately I've been more consciously watching myself do the mirroring thing. I'm afraid that now I'm more aware of it, I'm just going to consciously perfect it and do it more. But it works.

The reason for all this is that everyone does what they can with the tools they have. This is our tool. "


... .

"hey, well Im going to throw my two penneth in for what its worth,

I am a slim 23 year old woman who used to be a pole dancer, I would consider myself and have been told many times that I am "stunning" by both men and woman, but I go to great lengths to make myself that way in order to get attention, I know im doing it, but I cant stop myself ( I am BPD).

as far as manipulation goes, I am an expert, a chamealeon if you will, I can make people fall in love with me by being whatever it is they need at that time, all my friends are male, as females can obviously see what im doing and are hostile towards me. I am not promiscous, have only slept with two long term partners, but I am very suductive, suggestive, and flirtacious.

I agree that BPD's especially women can come across as being attractive in a psychological way because of our ability to manipulate without even thinking about it. I have only been turned down a couple of times, and it still destroys me, I am very bitter about it, and am still trying to turn the situations to my advantage... . very self destructive I know. But I do feel empty and hollow, and ugly on the inside, and I dont believe I deserve love and attention, so I guess my behaviour is my way of affirming that I am worth something, and that in itself is pretty depressing, because every time, every guy I hook, i always feel guilty and hollow afterwards, and then the self loathing begins again.

so yeah, thats about it... . dont know if it helps? "

[corraline]

I believe my ex was very aware of his behaviors.  I saw him try to work through them.   I believe that depending on how much we are triggered by something will determine how much we will dysregulate and distort reality. That is a challenge all of us have. The more triggered they are, the most likely pain will be projected and feel like punishment coming in our direction. I do the same thing. I am trying to look at this.

[coolioqq]

Goldy, thanks for taking the time to compile all the posts painting the real picture around the awareness in pwBPD of their actions. They certainly are aware, but their ability to "help it" differs. If they are untreated, they tend to go with the flow, and can't help mirroring.

However, I think that us nons do, in a way, similar things such as we fall for it because we want to believe. I have a high EQ (IQ as well, but that's different) due to my personality type traits (INFP), so I was, in a way, aware that she was mirroring and manipulating. I just liked her and, later, loved her so much that I was trying to push those thoughts away. I wanted to believe that she was what she was portraying herself to be. She actually openly brought up her non-verbal cues, trying to gauge whether I know that she is lying (micro-expressions on her face and eye movement gave her away).

So, are they aware? Yes.

Are we aware? Yes.

Similarity: We both want to make it work, for different reasons. And we both go with the flow.

[Confused?]

Mine was very up front about illness. She told me she ptsd very early on from abusive parents and boyfriends. I found stop walking on eggshells at her house. I asked her about it and she said it was a book she was supposed to read because her mom was bipolar. I saw botes in it highlighted that were exactly the way she was acting and words next to them saying I love you and stuff like that. So I told her she might be BPD since it was obvious her ex boyfriend bought the book and read it and put notes in it. Later she got officially diagnosed with BPD. I feel as if the whole time she was usin pity stories on me so often that I started to feel sorry for her. That's where I feel my love started. She definately used her disease to her advantage. She didn't really work or do anything. She played the sad game to control my life to the point where I didn't even know what she wanted from me anymore. Our arguments were more frequent and she always said I used her disease against her. She stopped telling me the way she was feeling and that's when she split me black and found a replacement. I looked past all the lies and manipulations and just tried to focus on making her happy which was impossible to do. She knew exactly what she was doing the whole time. Once I got sick of the way she acted all day as the depressed hurt girl, that's when she was just gone.

[AwakenedOne]

not everyone here has experienced purposeful-punishment by their SO with BPD

pwBPD will simply imagine things happening that aren't true at all. or distort reality in their heads to have a negative outcome.

goldylamont,

Thanks for the insightful and very helpful for me in understanding response GL.

I feel that my uBPDstbxw exhibited both of these behaviors/actions that you mention above at different times.

The term purposeful-punishment is a good name for what I feel I experienced. That falls into the cruel and heartless category as I see it and have felt it.

AO

[AG]

Goldy, thanks for taking the time to compile all the posts painting the real picture around the awareness in pwBPD of their actions. They certainly are aware, but their ability to "help it" differs. If they are untreated, they tend to go with the flow, and can't help mirroring.

However, I think that us nons do, in a way, similar things such as we fall for it because we want to believe. I have a high EQ (IQ as well, but that's different) due to my personality type traits (INFP), so I was, in a way, aware that she was mirroring and manipulating. I just liked her and, later, loved her so much that I was trying to push those thoughts away. I wanted to believe that she was what she was portraying herself to be. She actually openly brought up her non-verbal cues, trying to gauge whether I know that she is lying (micro-expressions on her face and eye movement gave her away).

So, are they aware? Yes.

Are we aware? Yes.




Similarity: We both want to make it work, for different reasons. And we both go with the flow


I'm not so sure if I was fully aware. I'm trying to take back my power aka remove victim mode so I'll state it on here as to not give away anymore power and try to accept that I control my own actions. I truly believe that I am left with some tendencies that are part of her bullish personality. However I will say this in my or rather our(Non's) defense. Someone pretending to be sick to play off of your emotion is not something that I'm equipped or rather prepared for. Who the hell would know who is in love that the person they love will go to any extent even faking illness to f*** them over and use them. When someone you love is in pain and comes to you looking in pain and saying they're in pain and saying they are in need. Most people with a heart will naturally try to help them out let alone your loved one. Add into the mix that you yourself are worn down and vulnerable yourself and already confused and there you have it an easy target for a person to take advantage. It's funny that you speak of personality types Mine is ENFP. When you read on ENFP we are especially an easy prey when it comes to this type of person looking to fake ailments and play like they're weak. I mean honestly illness or no illness there is absolutely no excuse to play sick to f*** people over. I'm finding it harder and harder to have compassion for these borderlines. There is a such thing as malevolent forces in this world as well as dark energy and honestly speaking if they are not the embodiment of it then they most certainly have embraced dark energy on mass levels. I am still questioning as to why they do not lock these people away from society. Yes I hear they're tragic stories of the past childhoods however I'm pretty sure that a child molester has a tragic story, so does a serial killer, so does an alcoholic husband who beats his wife into a coma, so does a catholic school priest who uses the trust children have in him to molest little boys. These stories I read on here of them faking rape to get people arrested or making up stories to take peoples kids from them or giving unsuspecting trusting husbands an STD to live with for life are evil in its purest form. Consciously choosing to do these things are more then upsetting they are heartbreaking. When you trust someone and I mean truly trust them they can easily chose to take advantage of you. In the case of my ex and I'm sure pretty much most people on here they have to work pretty damn hard to gain your trust and the same thing they fear most which is betrayal of trust they have no problem executing and then blaming it on anyone else but themselves. Evil ass people.

[coolioqq]

I'm not so sure if I was fully aware. I'm trying to take back my power aka remove victim mode so I'll state it on here as to not give away anymore power and try to accept that I control my own actions. I truly believe that I am left with some tendencies that are part of her bullish personality. However I will say this in my or rather our(Non's) defense. Someone pretending to be sick to play off of your emotion is not something that I'm equipped or rather prepared for. Who the hell would know who is in love that the person they love will go to any extent even faking illness to f*** them over and use them. When someone you love is in pain and comes to you looking in pain and saying they're in pain and saying they are in need. Most people with a heart will naturally try to help them out let alone your loved one. Add into the mix that you yourself are worn down and vulnerable yourself and already confused and there you have it an easy target for a person to take advantage. It's funny that you speak of personality types Mine is ENFP. When you read on ENFP we are especially an easy prey when it comes to this type of person looking to fake ailments and play like they're weak. I mean honestly illness or no illness there is absolutely no excuse to play sick to f*** people over. I'm finding it harder and harder to have compassion for these borderlines. There is a such thing as malevolent forces in this world as well as dark energy and honestly speaking if they are not the embodiment of it then they most certainly have embraced dark energy on mass levels. I am still questioning as to why they do not lock these people away from society. Yes I hear they're tragic stories of the past childhoods however I'm pretty sure that a child molester has a tragic story, so does a serial killer, so does an alcoholic husband who beats his wife into a coma, so does a catholic school priest who uses the trust children have in him to molest little boys. These stories I read on here of them faking rape to get people arrested or making up stories to take peoples kids from them or giving unsuspecting trusting husbands an STD to live with for life are evil in its purest form. Consciously choosing to do these things are more then upsetting they are heartbreaking. When you trust someone and I mean truly trust them they can easily chose to take advantage of you. In the case of my ex and I'm sure pretty much most people on here they have to work pretty damn hard to gain your trust and the same thing they fear most which is betrayal of trust they have no problem executing and then blaming it on anyone else but themselves. Evil ass people.

During an episode after which I broke it off, I experienced it first hand the "dark energy" that you talk about. And this comes from a quite skeptical person regarding those things. When I caught her lying and confronted her, my dBPDexgf made a diabolical facial gesture, as if she was possessed... . So, there is definitely something to that belief. What's worse is that she was scheming in real-time, right there in front of me, and was spewing out half-truths and more lies, looking at my facial expressions. She was reading (correctly) the look on my face and saying "I know you don't believe me... . " actually in shame because she knew she was caught and just making it worse. That's when she admitted her diagnosis, not because she wanted me to know, but because she knew she f****d up and lost all credibility, so she brought it up as an excuse.

As for awareness, I wasn't fully aware either at the time, because I was unconsciously pushing all suspicions aside... . When I say that we are aware, I am referring to the suspicions that inevitably arise. We often tend to push them aside. So, I did that too. Because of the same reasons that you describe: compassion, love, trust I gave her... . The thing is, regardless of whether it is fully caused by their illness or not, they do not deserve trust. I think they do deserve compassion - they are human beings after all. But compassion is merely an acknowledgement of their illness and helping them get better, if they commit. Trust is something that needs to be earned. My biggest problem is that I give it by default until it is betrayed. I learned to be more skeptical the next time around... .

In any case, our traits and motivations do have something to do with our personality types. We should definitely not change the positive traits. I think we only need to work on ourselves to make sure we choose the right and deserving people to share the best of ourselves with. It is impossible to learn it without making mistakes, unless we are lucky and get it right the first time. Most people don't so: live and learn... .

[LongGoneEx]

Trust is something that needs to be earned. My biggest problem is that I give it by default until it is betrayed. I learned to be more skeptical the next time around... .

It seems to me that your initial approach of trusting until betrayed is correct. For love cannot flower in the absence of trust and with a normal person (i.e. one without a serious mental illness) things go better if the default is that we extend trust.

Perhaps a better approach is to be vigilant for deception but not hypervigilant. After one BPD relationship we've probably all developed a keen instinct for how they run their emotional con jobs (regardless of whether they do it knowingly or subconsciously). So just let the other person do whatever they want to do (as goldylamont said in another thread) and they'll soon show you who they really are. They cannot help themselves. Nor can we help them, if that's who they really are. If they think they're fooling you (since you don't challenge them) they'll get even more bold with their infidelity, lies and manipulations. That is the point at which we need to start detaching, rather than JADE-ing.  That is what I learned after being exposed to the pathological dishonesty of pwBPD/NPD.

Usually there are plenty of signs that someone may be disordered and dishonest and it's at the point when we first see those red flags that we need to double down on our hunch that the person is an emotional grifter. That is where we need to work on ourselves - to accept things as they are with the other person, grim though the truth is, rather than deluding ourselves with false hopes about them. No con job works unless the person being conned desperately wants to believe the con artist. A pwBPD may narcissistically think they can con anyone because pwBPD/NPD are obsessed with control, but it isn't so - we all have free will.

Going slower in a relationship is one way to protect ourselves.  In both of my BPD relationships, it was obvious before six months that something was seriously wrong. As a rule of thumb I'd say that if we totally trust before about six months, we're in danger of being manipulated. Doubly so if we prematurely become sexual because that further clouds are rational judgement.  They can only mirror for so long - the strain of it to them is huge. Their mask wears thin quickly. Just wait them out and don't hand your heart over too soon.

And yeah, that diabolical look as they tell their hurtful whoppers - especially their eyes. It's eerie. A good visual antidote to remember for those times when we sentimentally ruminate about them.

[goldylamont]

Goldy, thanks for taking the time to compile all the posts painting the real picture around the awareness in pwBPD of their actions. They certainly are aware, but their ability to "help it" differs. If they are untreated, they tend to go with the flow, and can't help mirroring.

regarding whether they can "help it"--i absolutely agree. while in the moment they can definitely be intentional, there's just as many posts by pwBPD saying how they hate themselves for acting certain ways. tons of thoughts like "i just started a fight with my bf/gf for no reason. kept pushing and pushing just because i felt hatred even though i knew he/she wasn't the problem. why do it do this? i hate myself!" --it's truly heartbreaking on both sides. i think of it similar to an addiction... . take smoking cigarettes for example. most people that are hooked don't necessarily want to be hooked, know that it's bad, but still keep smoking--it's hard to change. of course there's a few people who are proud to be an addict, but most aren't. (i'm working on quitting as we speak  ).

However, I think that us nons do, in a way, similar things such as we fall for it because we want to believe. I have a high EQ (IQ as well, but that's different) due to my personality type traits (INFP), so I was, in a way, aware that she was mirroring and manipulating. I just liked her and, later, loved her so much that I was trying to push those thoughts away. I wanted to believe that she was what she was portraying herself to be. She actually openly brought up her non-verbal cues, trying to gauge whether I know that she is lying (micro-expressions on her face and eye movement gave her away).

So, are they aware? Yes.

Are we aware? Yes.

Similarity: We both want to make it work, for different reasons. And we both go with the flow.

i want to take the personality type test again, i did an online version a while ago but i forget what i was? not sure if this is weird, but with most psychology tests i feel like i know what the questions are trying to get at so it's hard for me to answer them without trying to change the outcome. i feel like i could fudge them to my fancy even though i don't want to.

coolioqq my experience was never that i wanted to believe though. and perhaps this is less common. i mean, of course i wished my ex didn't suffer from this illness, but i've never been the type to push away thoughts because they weren't what i wanted to believe. i always knew this would come back to bite me in the arse. this r/s lasted 4 years, short 2 week break in the middle (end of year 2). i'd say 6-8 months in was where i first noticed abandonment issues and jealousy arise. and frankly i knew about the self esteem issues from the start.

thing is, these weren't why i left the relationship, and not why i went NC. now i did allow certain boundaries to be crossed regarding what i would call "respect" (or perhaps 'disrespect' :-)). yes, but most of these occurrances were spaced out enough with peaceful loving times that i was OK overall. what i did NOT suspect were the deep trust issues. do you know that it never even occurred to me that i should question my ex's fidelity until AFTER i broke up with her? i never questioned whether my ex was a liar until AFTER i broke up. it was those 2 months after breaking up when she got vengeful that my eyes opened and i was like "oh isht! i never thought she was capable of this."

i never see myself in having my head in the clouds, but boy was i ignorant. my friends loved my ex and some of the (very few) who i told about BPD (i discovered about a year afterwards) i could tell didn't really believe me. my ex was very high functioning. it wasn't one of those cases where people would look at us and question why we were together, seemed like a perfect fit. in all honesty i think my ex behaved probably the best she had in our r/s than she had in others. i think breaking up was when i saw a side of her that she'd kept mostly hidden for years. to her credit though i feel she's overcome a lot to keep the r/s going as long as it did. most people ask "well why'd you stay so long?" but for me i think our r/s lasted so long because both of us really wanted to make it work. we were both powerful in our own ways and the attraction was sustained b/c of this. i wasn't just a doormat in denial for 4 years you know.

i will say though that after the breakup, during the 8 months or so when we were still in contact, i definitely didn't want to accept that she was completely untrustworthy. a lost cost. it was hard to accept. but while in the r/s it never came to mind, and when it did i broke up with her (even though god knows i didn't want to).

[goldylamont]

not everyone here has experienced purposeful-punishment by their SO with BPD

pwBPD will simply imagine things happening that aren't true at all. or distort reality in their heads to have a negative outcome.

... . The term purposeful-punishment is a good name for what I feel I experienced. That falls into the cruel and heartless category as I see it and have felt it.

AO

AO thank you for saying this, i'm glad you got something from it. I posted those quotes not to cast a bad light on BPD--i simply wanted to cast a light. for those of us who have experienced purposeful-punishment i think it's important that we know that we aren't crazy in thinking that they are aware. there's so much self searching we need to do and it's important to figure out where we were wrong in our thinking and where we were right on. this helps us calibrate our awareness of our instincts.

Sometimes there is resistance from nons to acknowledge awareness on the part of the pwBPD. Sometimes it could simply be that the non didn't experience much of this (or was completely fooled  ). However I feel some of this resistance comes from a fear that if we find out that our ex's were "that bad", that this realization will make it next to impossible to forgive and move on... .

Understandable. Because it is more challenging to forgive in move on knowing this. But to hell with fear at this point i say. I think I'm a bit further out in recovery than many here, and i can tell you that i feel compassion and forgiveness taking strong roots. And it's organic and I feel it's more "real" for me because I didn't try to rush it. Even though she meant to hurt me. Even though she had some evil intent. Regardless of if it's a tougher road, the truth is the truth and i think it wise not to shy away from it or smooth it over to try and protect ourselves.

Does this make sense? Acknowledging their nastiness only deepens our understanding, it doesn't only have to be a tool used to blame and deflect responsibility from us.

[goldylamont]

I'm not so sure if I was fully aware. I'm trying to take back my power aka remove victim mode so I'll state it on here as to not give away anymore power and try to accept that I control my own actions. I truly believe that I am left with some tendencies that are part of her bullish personality. However I will say this in my or rather our(Non's) defense. Someone pretending to be sick to play off of your emotion is not something that I'm equipped or rather prepared for. Who the hell would know who is in love that the person they love will go to any extent even faking illness to f*** them over and use them. When someone you love is in pain and comes to you looking in pain and saying they're in pain and saying they are in need. Most people with a heart will naturally try to help them out let alone your loved one. Add into the mix that you yourself are worn down and vulnerable yourself and already confused and there you have it an easy target for a person to take advantage. It's funny that you speak of personality types Mine is ENFP. When you read on ENFP we are especially an easy prey when it comes to this type of person looking to fake ailments and play like they're weak. I mean honestly illness or no illness there is absolutely no excuse to play sick to f*** people over. I'm finding it harder and harder to have compassion for these borderlines. There is a such thing as malevolent forces in this world as well as dark energy and honestly speaking if they are not the embodiment of it then they most certainly have embraced dark energy on mass levels. I am still questioning as to why they do not lock these people away from society. Yes I hear they're tragic stories of the past childhoods however I'm pretty sure that a child molester has a tragic story, so does a serial killer, so does an alcoholic husband who beats his wife into a coma, so does a catholic school priest who uses the trust children have in him to molest little boys. These stories I read on here of them faking rape to get people arrested or making up stories to take peoples kids from them or giving unsuspecting trusting husbands an STD to live with for life are evil in its purest form. Consciously choosing to do these things are more then upsetting they are heartbreaking. When you trust someone and I mean truly trust them they can easily chose to take advantage of you. In the case of my ex and I'm sure pretty much most people on here they have to work pretty damn hard to gain your trust and the same thing they fear most which is betrayal of trust they have no problem executing and then blaming it on anyone else but themselves. Evil ass people.

you know AG keep digging like everyone of us here and try and find ways that you were aware--but if you find that you weren't, then you know what? i think that's ok too. i empathize with a lot in this post.

we took a dance with the devil and lived to tell the story 

"Sometimes we attract exactly what we need to grow, and sometimes a sociopath walks through the door, one who can fool anyone... . " -Jeff Brown  << AG i think you're saying you tend towards the latter, others here tend to the former. and that's ok.

good things happen to bad people. bad things happen to good people... .

your post is anger--angry anger. expressed in a very direct way. and that's the way to do it in my opinion. when you are able to express your anger in this way you give it a break, because you've given it a voice. so now that your anger feels respected there's some pressure relieved (no matter how small it may feel in the moment) and this allows it to flow out and give us a break later on down the line.

i'm never going to sell you any silver lining stories or tell you what you said is wrong. i think you should save what you wrote and come back to it in a year and re-read it. then come back after two years. and i think you will find that you will still agree with much of it factually, yet it will affect you less. so you won't have to even disagree to move beyond. i hope i'm giving this some context for you.

me? i danced with the devil and then i wanted to hurt her. i wanted her to feel the hatred she put in me. i hated her.

later, i danced with the devil and i just wanted to laugh at her stupid ass and watch her burn in the hell she created.

more time passed and now i'm trying not to dance at all. it's tough yet so much easier at the same time. but, it does take time.

-------------

another thought: this whole experience has taught me that emotional abuse isn't understood well by those who haven't experienced it directly. so there's less compassion for the sufferers and less accountability for the perpetrators. sucks doesn't it? tell you what though, i don't see this changing much in my lifetime. so eff it, it's a war wound and i'm all the wiser now. time is teaching me that this won't even come close to breaking me.

[AG]

I'm not so sure if I was fully aware. I'm trying to take back my power aka remove victim mode so I'll state it on here as to not give away anymore power and try to accept that I control my own actions. I truly believe that I am left with some tendencies that are part of her bullish personality. However I will say this in my or rather our(Non's) defense. Someone pretending to be sick to play off of your emotion is not something that I'm equipped or rather prepared for. Who the hell would know who is in love that the person they love will go to any extent even faking illness to f*** them over and use them. When someone you love is in pain and comes to you looking in pain and saying they're in pain and saying they are in need. Most people with a heart will naturally try to help them out let alone your loved one. Add into the mix that you yourself are worn down and vulnerable yourself and already confused and there you have it an easy target for a person to take advantage. It's funny that you speak of personality types Mine is ENFP. When you read on ENFP we are especially an easy prey when it comes to this type of person looking to fake ailments and play like they're weak. I mean honestly illness or no illness there is absolutely no excuse to play sick to f*** people over. I'm finding it harder and harder to have compassion for these borderlines. There is a such thing as malevolent forces in this world as well as dark energy and honestly speaking if they are not the embodiment of it then they most certainly have embraced dark energy on mass levels. I am still questioning as to why they do not lock these people away from society. Yes I hear they're tragic stories of the past childhoods however I'm pretty sure that a child molester has a tragic story, so does a serial killer, so does an alcoholic husband who beats his wife into a coma, so does a catholic school priest who uses the trust children have in him to molest little boys. These stories I read on here of them faking rape to get people arrested or making up stories to take peoples kids from them or giving unsuspecting trusting husbands an STD to live with for life are evil in its purest form. Consciously choosing to do these things are more then upsetting they are heartbreaking. When you trust someone and I mean truly trust them they can easily chose to take advantage of you. In the case of my ex and I'm sure pretty much most people on here they have to work pretty damn hard to gain your trust and the same thing they fear most which is betrayal of trust they have no problem executing and then blaming it on anyone else but themselves. Evil ass people.

you know AG keep digging like everyone of us here and try and find ways that you were aware--but if you find that you weren't, then you know what? i think that's ok too. i empathize with a lot in this post.

we took a dance with the devil and lived to tell the story 

"Sometimes we attract exactly what we need to grow, and sometimes a sociopath walks through the door, one who can fool anyone... . " -Jeff Brown  << AG i think you're saying you tend towards the latter, others here tend to the former. and that's ok.

good things happen to bad people. bad things happen to good people... .

your post is anger--angry anger. expressed in a very direct way. and that's the way to do it in my opinion. when you are able to express your anger in this way you give it a break, because you've given it a voice. so now that your anger feels respected there's some pressure relieved (no matter how small it may feel in the moment) and this allows it to flow out and give us a break later on down the line.

i'm never going to sell you any silver lining stories or tell you what you said is wrong. i think you should save what you wrote and come back to it in a year and re-read it. then come back after two years. and i think you will find that you will still agree with much of it factually, yet it will affect you less. so you won't have to even disagree to move beyond. i hope i'm giving this some context for you.

me? i danced with the devil and then i wanted to hurt her. i wanted her to feel the hatred she put in me. i hated her.

later, i danced with the devil and i just wanted to laugh at her stupid ass and watch her burn in the hell she created.

more time passed and now i'm trying not to dance at all. it's tough yet so much easier at the same time. but, it does take time.

-------------

another thought: this whole experience has taught me that emotional abuse isn't understood well by those who haven't experienced it directly. so there's less compassion for the sufferers and less accountability for the perpetrators. sucks doesn't it? tell you what though, i don't see this changing much in my lifetime. so eff it, it's a war wound and i'm all the wiser now. time is teaching me that this won't even come close to breaking me.

Very well put. Thanks for this I cannot wait to get where you are now. It could not come any sooner