Is this anger or rage?

[Lily77]

I'm new to the site and only recently discovered that my mother most likely is ahigh functioning uBPD. I've just started therapy and lately I'm finding myself re-examining my past from this new perspective of my mother having a mental illness. It's been helpful in understanding a lot of went on in my early life, and some of the feelings I've struggled with over the years (extremely low self esteem, self doubt, difficulty expressing my opinions and needs, anxiety.)

I have been doing some reading on this site and noticed that many people mention the "rages" that people with BPD go in to. It struck me that I wasn't sure if the anger that my mother displayed throughout my childhood and to this day wasn't in fact a normal display of anger, or one of BPD rage.

Because she was a single parent and I had no interaction with my father after the age of one, as well as the fact that my mother was estranged from pretty much my entire extended family for large portions of my childhood (and therefore I didn't have much contact with them growing up) I feel like I didn't have any other models for what is normal, appropriate behavior and what is not.

When my mother gets angry, it's not a sudden outburst generally, there's usually a cause (however trivial) and a build up. However, it suddenly struck me that her responses can be a bit extreme:

-When I was a child she would grab us by the arms and slap us repeatedly when angry, almost like she couldn't stop. It would usually be over small things, like talking back, or refusing to go to bed. When we would cry, she tell us to "stop crying, she wasn't beating us, it was just a slap". In the past few years (I'm in my 30s) she has tried to slap me twice in the heat of an argument, but usually pulls back at the last minute.

- She doesn't scream, but she talks through clenched teeth and hisses out her words

- Her whole body goes rigid and sometimes will shake, and she will pound her hands on her couch or chair when she is contradicted or she's trying to make a point. She will also sometimes stomp her foot like a kid.

- Her eyes pop out and her lips compress

- She uses the silent treatment, but in a way I haven't seen described elsewhere: when I try to explain or clarify my side of things in an argument she will talk over me, saying "Keep your voice down!", "Stop talking!" "I don't want to hear it!" "Let me speak!" and generally contradicting everything I say so that I can't get a word in edgewise. Then if I do stop she says, "We're through talking--I don't want to have this argument any more" and will then proceed to not talk to me, walking out of the room, or ignoring me. Whenever I try to approach her again, I get brushed aside or she bursts into tears and says something victimized. When I try to explain myself, we typically go through the same above process all over again.

Does this sound like BPD rage/behavior?

[Kwamina]

Hi Lily77!  

In my opinion the things you describe do sound like what many would classify as BPD rage. I'm very sorry your mother treated you this way. Many of us children raised by BPD parents weren't fully aware of just how extreme the behavior of our parents was. We might not have liked certain aspects of how we were treated but just like you already rightly pointed out, this was our only model for what was normal. We didn't have the outside-in perspective that outsiders have who would immediately have classified certain behavior as dysfunctional. As I've learned about BPD I also started re-evaluating what went on in my past and was shocked when I realized how used I had gotten to certain crazy behaviors. An example is my uBPD older sister often threatening to commit suicide to get a reaction from us. She has never ever actually made an actual suicide attempt but of course you never know and she was fully aware of how these threats would impact her family members. When I was growing up I found her behavior shocking and confusing at first, but later got used to it. I still found it annoying but only after finding out about BPD did it dawn on me just how disturbing it is for someone to use the threat of suicide to manipulate others. It seems so obvious now, but until a few years ago I didn't see it.

[AsianSon]

Hi Lily77,



To answer your question a word, I say "yes."  I think using "rage" to describe your mother's behavior is accurate. 

To me, rage is a level of anger involving violence (verbal or physical), lack of control, lack of awareness, and disproportionate intensity and reactions.

The description of grabbing or slapping or attempting these (and pounding hands) sound like violent behaviors.  The description of your mother's body (clenched teeth, hissing voice, rigid body, shaking body, foot stomping, popping eyes, and pressed lips sound like a loss of control and lack of awareness (even though some of these may be unconscious behaviors). 

- She uses the silent treatment, but in a way I haven't seen described elsewhere: when I try to explain or clarify my side of things in an argument she will talk over me, saying "Keep your voice down!", "Stop talking!" "I don't want to hear it!" "Let me speak!" and generally contradicting everything I say so that I can't get a word in edgewise. Then if I do stop she says, "We're through talking--I don't want to have this argument any more" and will then proceed to not talk to me, walking out of the room, or ignoring me. Whenever I try to approach her again, I get brushed aside or she bursts into tears and says something victimized. When I try to explain myself, we typically go through the same above process all over again.

You are not alone in experiencing this type of behavior.  I experience the same from my BPDm. 

She also has explosive anger/rage and recently, a similar situation to your description helped me realize how she probably views things and confirmed her condition to me.  The situation included her having an emotional meltdown after dinner, where she did not eat.  Then she was back in typical BPD form, talking nearly non-stop when she said that she wouldn't have had the meltdown if I did not "talk back" to her. 

My father was there and I calmly asked the question of whether a difference in view or opinion was "talking back."  I used an example of a photograph in the newspaper on the counter and asked if my father thought the picture was taken well and I thought it wasn't, was that "talking back."  My father said no, and my mother immediately interjected and said "of course that is talking back!"  If it wasn't, "you wouldn't say anything about the picture!" 

This fits a lot of my BPDm's behaviors, such as being triggered by explanations or clarifications because she often cannot handle any view but her own.  This is probably because she feels her own thoughts so strongly and intensely that any other view is a challenge to her feelings.  The actual thought (right or wrong) doesn't matter.  All she experiences is the challenge, which to her is "talking back."   

[clljhns]

  Lily77,

She doesn't scream, but she talks through clenched teeth and hisses out her words

- Her whole body goes rigid and sometimes will shake, and she will pound her hands on her couch or chair when she is contradicted or she's trying to make a point. She will also sometimes stomp her foot like a kid.

- Her eyes pop out and her lips compress

- She uses the silent treatment, but in a way I haven't seen described elsewhere: when I try to explain or clarify my side of things in an argument she will talk over me, saying "Keep your voice down!", "Stop talking!" "I don't want to hear it!" "Let me speak!" and generally contradicting everything I say so that I can't get a word in edgewise. Then if I do stop she says, "We're through talking--I don't want to have this argument any more" and will then proceed to not talk to me, walking out of the room, or ignoring me. Whenever I try to approach her again, I get brushed aside or she bursts into tears and says something victimized. When I try to explain myself, we typically go through the same above process all over again.

Yes! I have experienced all of the above with my uBPDmom. I hope this gives you added validation!

Glad you found bpdfamily! You will find a lot of support and help here. Check out the resources section and read about the effects of a BPDmom on children.

Peace and blessings   

[Lily77]

Hi everyone 

Thanks so much for your replies and sharing your stories. It has helped me so much already to find this site. For years I felt isolated and like no one else would understand what I've gone through.

As I've learned about BPD I also started re-evaluating what went on in my past and was shocked when I realized how used I had gotten to certain crazy behaviors. An example is my uBPD older sister often threatening to commit suicide to get a reaction from us. She has never ever actually made an actual suicide attempt but of course you never know and she was fully aware of how these threats would impact her family members... . It seems so obvious now, but until a few years ago I didn't see it.

Kwamina, I'm so sorry you had to experience that with your sister, that sounds very stressful. While my mother has never been suicidal or self harming, I can certainly relate to the manipulative use of threats. My mother has been financially dependent on me for awhile (here's my original post: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=224136.0 ) and she has often called me up and said things like "I'm going to become a maid" (completely degrading in her mind) or "I'm going to go to a homeless shelter" or "I'm going to sell all my stuff and rent some tiny room" when I've started to talk to her about her finding work again. Of course, she never follows through, it's just calculated to make me feel bad. And looking back on my past, I now feel like I was brainwashed or asleep for most of it, and am only now awakening to the true reality of the situation.

AsianSon, thanks for your thoughts and the validations of my suspicions about my mother's anger. I'm sorry you're in a similar situation with your mother.

This fits a lot of my BPDm's behaviors, such as being triggered by explanations or clarifications because she often cannot handle any view but her own.  This is probably because she feels her own thoughts so strongly and intensely that any other view is a challenge to her feelings.  The actual thought (right or wrong) doesn't matter.  All she experiences is the challenge, which to her is "talking back."   

This is interesting what you've written why many BPD's can not handle challenges to their feelings. I can definitely see that in my own mother, but I never really understood why this was. It's definitely making me reconsider how I handle arguments with her in the future, as before I just felt like if I explained enough or said it in a different way she would see my point of view and we could move on.

Yes! I have experienced all of the above with my uBPDmom. I hope this gives you added validation!

Thanks, Clljhns! It certainly does! 

[AsianSon]

This is interesting what you've written why many BPD's can not handle challenges to their feelings. I can definitely see that in my own mother, but I never really understood why this was. It's definitely making me reconsider how I handle arguments with her in the future, as before I just felt like if I explained enough or said it in a different way she would see my point of view and we could move on.

This is a recent revelation to me as well.  I think my BPDm was previously able to handle some level of reasonable communications and discussions to try and solve issues.  But now, with the steady increase in her BPD behaviors, I cannot expect her to react like most people to an explanation or clarification in a discussion. 

This is kind of summed up in the idea of ":)on't JADE," which means "don't justify, argue, defend, or explain" because it triggers more outbursts.  I think some parents may be particularly sensitive (like my mom) because they hold themselves to be parents who are not wrong (and even if wrong, to be obeyed).  But I confess that "don't JADE" is difficult for me. 

(There are many reasons for the difficulty, but one is that if I take a position or view that differs from my BPDm without any JADE, she will demand an explanation.  I think in her mind, she thinks she can beat anything I might have.  But of course if I fall into the trap and explain... . then bam! she is triggered and the anger/rage appears.  This is so sad that it actually makes me want to laugh nervously to avoid the sadness.)

So instead, I have been trying to use SET (Support, Empathy, and Truth) as a focus for my communications with her.  You can find specific details on this site, and perhaps it can help you with your situation. 

The hardest part of SET for me is to be ready with Truths when they are needed.  My mom is very unpredictable with respect to specifics, so I cannot always quickly find the right Truth to use.  This can cause problems because she is so impatient that she treats any delay as indicating disagreement (because agreement in her mind is easy and immediate) and/or as indicating a lie (in the sense that the Support and Empathy that was communicated must have been false if immediate agreement does not follow). 

So I have been trying to prepare some basic Truths that might be generally applicable.  But this seems to lead me to Truths that are more like boundaries, which I suspect have limited benefit in SET (as compared to Truths that offer progress or a way to address the feelings being Supported and Empathized with). 

Sorry for the long winded response.  I'm trying to sort out quite a few things myself. 

Best wishes to you,

A

[Lily77]

Thanks, AsianSon--not long-winded at all, but very helpful! Like I said, I'm new to all this and am still sifting and reading a lot of the information about BPD, so I appreciate the tips about JADE and SET.

But I confess that "don't JADE" is difficult for me. 

(There are many reasons for the difficulty, but one is that if I take a position or view that differs from my BPDm without any JADE, she will demand an explanation.  I think in her mind, she thinks she can beat anything I might have.  But of course if I fall into the trap and explain... . then bam! she is triggered and the anger/rage appears. )

I can see how that would be difficult for me too-- my mother would also most likely want an explanation as well if only to then use it as a starting point to begin lecturing me and wearing me down so that I'll see her point of view. I find a lot of our arguments/conversations are her going on and on in a slightly condescending tone about things as if I don't know anything, or she's debating me, even when some of the time I'm agreeing with her! This behavior really triggers my need to speak up and defend myself, which then quickly makes things escalate.

But at least now I feel like I'm starting to understand this whole dynamic between us and maybe won't be triggered so easily. Adding SET to the toolkit

[Cassy]

- She doesn't scream, but she talks through clenched teeth and hisses out her words

- Her whole body goes rigid and sometimes will shake, and she will pound her hands on her couch or chair when she is contradicted or she's trying to make a point. She will also sometimes stomp her foot like a kid.

These describe mother to a T. She has false teeth and they'd be sliding and spit would be flying out. A few years ago she went into a foot stamping rage at the hospital because she couldn't find the bathroom and starting flinging her jacket around and slamming it on the ground. Like she was two.

She would slap me, or grind her fist into my face, but mostly she was a shaker.

Have you ever tried to talk to someone about this and had them look at you like you had two heads? That's why I love this place.

[clljhns]

Cassy,

Have you ever tried to talk to someone about this and had them look at you like you had two heads? That's why I love this place.

Sorry to get off topic here, but I had to send out a resounding YES! I laughed when I read this, because it is so true! I am very careful about who I share this info with for that very reason! Only long-term friends. I mean, more than 10 years friends.

[jessienbp]

Sounds like BPD rage, yup.

When I was a child, my mother would assault me bodily until she was exhausted. Pummeling, scratching, battering with her fists, hair-pulling -- once she knocked me to the ground and began jumping up and down on me while wearing wooden clogs with sharp edges.

Thing is, I can't remember a single thing I did that would have remotely justified physical punishment, let alone out-of-control abuse. Spilled my milk, that kind of thing,

[StarStruck]

Hi Lily77  

Really sorry to hear your experiences. It's remarkably uncanny to my history & would say it was rage behavior. I too also concluded that mine was a high functioning BPD.

Side note about smacking: Years later expressed my issue with it in an open conversation to her and a room of family members (quite innocently) saying that a teacher had said that learning doesn't occur through punishment and that I was anti smacking... . she nearly turned into gozer.


It's great you have found this board, I have found it great support. Sounds like you are doing all the right things. All the best Lily77.

[jessienbp]

My mother now categorically denies she ever abused me in any way, physical, emotional, etc. She tells me I am making up stories -- with that BPD hiss, narrowed eyes, aggressive gaslighting I guess you would call it.

Has anyone else had this experience? The turning you into the liar?

[kharma]

Jessie, yes my BPD mother denies all of the physical and emotional harm she has caused. lately I have been secretly recording her 'rages' for this very reason

[Lily77]

Wow, thanks for all of your replies!

Have you ever tried to talk to someone about this and had them look at you like you had two heads? That's why I love this place.

Absolutely! I was even describing some of my mother's behavior to my therapist recently and she just kept shaking her head in disbelief at one point. It's been great to find this community of others who have gone through something similar and understand.

My mother now categorically denies she ever abused me in any way, physical, emotional, etc. She tells me I am making up stories -- with that BPD hiss, narrowed eyes, aggressive gaslighting I guess you would call it.

Has anyone else had this experience? The turning you into the liar?

I can really relate to this. While my mother hasn't outright denied slapping and hitting me as a kid, she believes it wasn't that bad and that she was completely justified (she almost never apologizes for her behavior). I distinctly remember her sneering at me with narrowed eyes saying "I never abused you, I never beat you. It was just a slap." She remembers very well all the things I've said to her while angry and provoked, but often times denies her angry behavior after the fact.

I think one thing I'm starting to realize was that for years I thought I must have deserved her anger (rage), that I must be truly awful to create such a response in my mother who could normally be loving. And then later, when I saw her acting out this way against others, I sided with her, and believed that they must really have been out of line to incur such an angry reaction in her. So, currently going through a complete paradigm shift at the moment... .

[Renni]

My mother now categorically denies she ever abused me in any way, physical, emotional, etc. She tells me I am making up stories -- with that BPD hiss, narrowed eyes, aggressive gaslighting I guess you would call it.

Has anyone else had this experience? The turning you into the liar?

Yes.