Multi-generational BPD

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So... . I need some advice and stories from others.  Not to make a decision right now... . but I am pretty sure that I have a decision coming in a few months... . that I need to have well thought out.

I think uBPDw is 3rd generation BPD... . that I know of... . in her family.  Grandma, mom, her.  Sister show it.  Aunts (moms sisters) show it.

None (to my knowledge) have ever gotten any kind of mental health treatment or evaluation.

So... if you look at my story and when I say we are in uncharted water... . my uBPDw having 3 individual T sessions behind her is big news... .

She is also first and only from her family to graduate college. 

If I had to grade her... . she would be "more high functioning" than the others... . or possibly not as bad.

When challenges come up to behaviors that these women do (which is rare they are challenged)... . their responses indicate that they truely believe they are doing the right thing.  In other words... . they aren't just being hard to deal with... . they believe to their core they are correct and the men (mostly) are scum that are cheaters, haters, bums...

For instance... . the mom of my uBPDw got challenged by my wife on something years ago... . it was obviously unforgiving... . unchristian behavior (I don't remember the details).  The serious response the mom gave was that "it is ok to doing something that "looks like sin"... . or is "wrong"... . to someone if your true intent is to point out wrongdoing in that persons life that needs to be corrected. 

Think about that for a minute.

My uBPDw pointed that out to me... . and correctly identified (way back then) it as an incorrect worldview... . yet now operates in much the same fashion.

These women are experts at pointing out flaws in each other... . but not looking in the mirror.  They claim to act differently that each other... . but are very similar.  Although not the same... there are some differences.

So... my question is...

If we do get into a treatment phase and my uBPDw starts making progress... . how do I handle the rest of the family.

Do I try to limit contact?  Set "limits" for the family...

So... . if a diagnosis or treatment becomes public... . I am sure they will have to capability to say that my uBPDw does have a problem... . they will be able to identify her behavior as "wrong" or unhealthy... . and the proceed to do exactly the same behaviors as my uBPDw.

There is a pretty good chance that they may try to talk her out of it.

But... again... uncharted waters... . there is no history here for me to look at.

I need to take reasonable steps... . but not cause an uproar if one is not needed.

Thoughts?

[formflier]

So... . I need some advice and stories from others.  Not to make a decision right now... . but I am pretty sure that I have a decision coming in a few months... . that I need to have well thought out.

I think uBPDw is 3rd generation BPD... . that I know of... . in her family.  Grandma, mom, her.  Sister show it.  Aunts (moms sisters) show it.

None (to my knowledge) have ever gotten any kind of mental health treatment or evaluation.

So... if you look at my story and when I say we are in uncharted water... . my uBPDw having 3 individual T sessions behind her is big news... .

She is also first and only from her family to graduate college. 

If I had to grade her... . she would be "more high functioning" than the others... . or possibly not as bad.

When challenges come up to behaviors that these women do (which is rare they are challenged)... . their responses indicate that they truely believe they are doing the right thing.  In other words... . they aren't just being hard to deal with... . they believe to their core they are correct and the men (mostly) are scum that are cheaters, haters, bums...

For instance... . the mom of my uBPDw got challenged by my wife on something years ago... . it was obviously unforgiving... . unchristian behavior (I don't remember the details).  The serious response the mom gave was that "it is ok to doing something that "looks like sin"... . or is "wrong"... . to someone if your true intent is to point out wrongdoing in that persons life that needs to be corrected. 

Think about that for a minute.

My uBPDw pointed that out to me... . and correctly identified (way back then) it as an incorrect worldview... . yet now operates in much the same fashion.

These women are experts at pointing out flaws in each other... . but not looking in the mirror.  They claim to act differently that each other... . but are very similar.  Although not the same... there are some differences.

So... my question is...

If we do get into a treatment phase and my uBPDw starts making progress... . how do I handle the rest of the family.

Do I try to limit contact?  Set "limits" for the family...

So... . if a diagnosis or treatment becomes public... . I am sure they will have to capability to say that my uBPDw does have a problem... . they will be able to identify her behavior as "wrong" or unhealthy... . and the proceed to do exactly the same behaviors as my uBPDw.

There is a pretty good chance that they may try to talk her out of it.

But... again... uncharted waters... . there is no history here for me to look at.

I need to take reasonable steps... . but not cause an uproar if one is not needed.

Thoughts?

[Love Is Not Enough]

BPD is rampant in my gf's family. I've only met the mother, but from talking to others it sounds like there are some serious issues all the way back to her great grandmother. Her two sisters (both from different fathers) also have serious issues with it. My gf is the highest functioning out of the group, but comes from a massively dysfunctional background. She was taken away from her mother at 18 months for neglect due to drug abuse and has tried to reconnect with her over the years. It sounds like your w comes from a more stable family unit.

All that being said I couldn't think of any advice to give you because she has cut off contact with most of her family since starting DBT. Then it occurred to me that is the information you need. My gf had a massive blowout with her mother who was living with her at the time and has not spoken to her since. She also cut ties with the lowest functioning sister and is fairly limited with the other one. She also does not communicate with anyone anymore from her mother's family. She did all of this on her own as she became self-aware of all the turmoil and how she made others feel. She has told me that she wants nothing to do with them anymore and has been working through all of these issues with her T. Just last week she did EMDR on a memory of her mother coming to visit when she was 5 and then leaving her again for years.

Hopefully your w will become more aware of the dysfunction and limit contact on her own. I really do not think there is much you can do about it, except limiting your own contact with them. That is what I have done. My gf's mother contacted me by email several months after the blowup trying to manipulate me back into the drama with her sob stories. I never responded.

Be supportive and validating to your w. Good luck with T, I hope it goes well for her.

[formflier]

  It sounds like your w comes from a more stable family unit.

.

Yeah... . at first glance... . they seem like a good family.  It takes a while to start putting patterns together.

And... very high functioning... . they got to work... . and officially stayed off the radar.

However... . it seems to really show up in my uBPDw generation.

Sister is divorced x2.  Very HIGH conflict divorces.  In my opinion the divorces were not  handled well by the "nons".  I even thought that at the time... . now that I have read postings over here... . they let a pwBPD run all over them.

brother is divorced x 1.  Probably not BPD... . but lots of mental issues.  Is a recluse. 

My wife is the best of the lot.

Even early on... when I married here... I would seriously say that I got the "pick of the litter".  I had no idea at the time that I should have paid more attention. 

When you go to cousins of the same generation as my uBPDw... . lots of drama there to.

High conflict divorces... . etc etc.

I need to look hard at statistics... . but we may be the only couple not to divorce yet... .

That is not a good statistic... . but I am a guy that likes to "beat the odds"... .

[maxsterling]

Definitely an interesting dynamic here.  My dBPDgf's mom was also dBPD.  And on her mom's side of the family there have been numerous suicides and instances of drug abuse dating back several generations.  GFs parents divorced because of Mom's violent abuse, GF was diagnosed BPD as a teenager, and has been in and out of mental hospitals.  

The family situation is such that it creates a negative reinforcement cycle.  Family members (especially dad) seem to use GFs BPD as an excuse to why they are right and she is wrong.  So if dad gets upset at his daughter, he can easily say that it is her fault because she is BPD.  And GF is quick to use her "mental illness" as an excuse for poor behavior and demand more respect from her father.  It just leads to a slow deterioration of the relationships.

[formflier]

Definitely an interesting dynamic here.  My dBPDgf's mom was also dBPD.  And on her mom's side of the family there have been numerous suicides and instances of drug abuse dating back several generations.  GFs parents divorced because of Mom's violent abuse, GF was diagnosed BPD as a teenager, and has been in and out of mental hospitals.  

The family situation is such that it creates a negative reinforcement cycle.  Family members (especially dad) seem to use GFs BPD as an excuse to why they are right and she is wrong.  So if dad gets upset at his daughter, he can easily say that it is her fault because she is BPD.  And GF is quick to use her "mental illness" as an excuse for poor behavior and demand more respect from her father.  It just leads to a slow deterioration of the relationships.

I am very impressed at the similarities of stories on the site... . but I also think it is very instructive or important that I also focus on the differences.

For instance... . yeah... . my uBPDw sister behaved really badly in her divorce.  I'm sure she is whispering in my uBPDw ear.  However... . in all... and I mean all other situations in live my wife always "tones down" her sisters advice.   This could be the exception... . but I don't expect it to be.

Maybe another way of saying that there is still a lot of individuality within the context of a "style" of disordered thinking.

[empath]

Several years ago, we were at a holiday family dinner with uBPDh's dad's family. I can remember sitting there knowing that most of them were on antidepressants at least. His dad's fathers were alcoholics -- making dad and his siblings ACoA's. Each of the siblings have different ways that this comes out; my guess is that some of them have had counseling help as well.  My husband's brother is also an alcoholic (in recovery), divorced (a very strange situation), erotic writer, etc.

That being said, I think there are overlapping symptoms, especially with husband's FOO. His mom is pretty co-dependent and willing to work around his dad's issues. A few years ago, she mentioned how she was aware of some of the choices that she made to accommodate her husband at the expense of her children and the fact that those were poor choices that hurt the kids. We had a recent visit with them, and they were describing h's brother's family (more issues with brother's kids, too).

Makes me very grateful for my own FOO.

[Grey Kitty]

What can you do about it?

You are discovering how hard it is to get your wife into treatment. I hope you aren't even considering working that problem with her FOO.

I'd suggest you apply best practices from here--don't be invalidating, do validate when you can, and enforce boundaries to protect yourself from bad behavior. (Boundary enforcement may well result in low contact or no contact)

And let your wife have her own r/s with them, good, bad, or distant as she chooses.

If you their behavior causes you to limit contact... . probably be low key with your wife about it. Trying to keep her away from people who are a bad influence creates its own problems, and you have enough with your wife already.

[Grey Kitty]

The only other action I would consider on your part is whether you need boundaries to protect your children from any members of your wife's FOO. If they aren't doing anything "over the line" to your children... . just let it be.

[bpbreakout]

I can totally relate to feeling grateful about my own FOO

Thankfully the rest of BPDw’s FOO live 4 hours away by plane. Parents are classic NPD husband and (almost certain) BPD wife. BPDw’s father is totally charming on the outside, highly “Christian” and does lots of “good works” for various institutions. In private he is fluctuates between being abusive and charming. The way he has treated his children and my children has been appalling. I refuse to let my children have anything to do with him. BPDw’s mother has “stood by” her husband in some quite amazing circumstances.

BPDw has 3 brothers all married with kids, all live 10 mins rive from BPDw’s parents. BPDw’s mother has dementia and father uses this to keep them under his influence. Otherwise I don’t believe they would have anything to do with him. All siblings regularly fall out with each other One brother (BPD ?) has gone bankrupt 3 times and narrowly escaped fraud charges each time. He treats his wife appallingly. She is on record as saying she will be gone as soon as kids are through high school. Another brother (NPD?) barely talks to his family, is a very successful sportsman and clearly considers himself a cut above the rest. The other brother is reasonably ok but a lot to do with who he married (in my opinion). I can’t trust him though as there are family secrets he should have made us aware of.

BPDw and I agree to disagree on contact with her family. She visits 3-4 times a year mainly because of her mother’s dementia I feel very uncomfortable and I think it has a bad impact on our relationship and I think they have treated her unbelievably badly. Ultimately I don’t think my values include demanding that people don’t have contact with FOO.

MY FOO may have some issues but thankfully we do know how to treat each other reasonably well and we (me + 2 sisters) all get on.

[formflier]

The only other action I would consider on your part is whether you need boundaries to protect your children from any members of your wife's FOO. If they aren't doing anything "over the line" to your children... . just let it be.

I found out today that 3 year old was out of state for couple days and I didn't know about it.  With uBPDw family.  Do I think there were any issues with physical safety... . no.

There is a principle here... . and this is the first time this has ever been done without my knowledge.

Before she would tell me... pick a fight about it... .

I'm going to let this info stew a few days... . and most likely not make a big deal about it.

However... . I asked the kids where she was when we went to play... . there was an odd response... I didn't press.  In other words they tried to say they didn't know... but I could tell they were uncomfortable saying that... and struggling to figure out what to say. 

Parental note:  Luckily I have good kids... that are horrible liars.  For now... I'm not going to call them on it... because it is good intel source.

Anyway... . most likely will be discussed in MC next week. 

Thoughts?

[formflier]

What can you do about it?

You are discovering how hard it is to get your wife into treatment. I hope you aren't even considering working that problem with her FOO.

I'd suggest you apply best practices from here--don't be invalidating, do validate when you can, and enforce boundaries to protect yourself from bad behavior. (Boundary enforcement may well result in low contact or no contact)

And let your wife have her own r/s with them, good, bad, or distant as she chooses.

If you their behavior causes you to limit contact... . probably be low key with your wife about it. Trying to keep her away from people who are a bad influence creates its own problems, and you have enough with your wife already.

I have been NC with them for months.  Zero desire to do anything about it.

uBPDw mom was around helping with kids a few weeks ago.  Went to a parade that I was at.  I was polite... said hey...

So... let me rephrase the question or issue.  I am hopeful that we are on the start of a course of effective treatment.  If I see positive changes start and uBPDw FOO starts pushing her to quit treatment or other wise interfere... . wondering what I do.

So... . she has gotten crap from them for finishing college.  For being "more successful"... . for making a choice to be SAHM... . etc etc  Basically... . when she makes "good choices"... they give her crap... sometimes directly... . mostly through sarcasm... . biting but vague remarks.

So... . there is chance that uBPDw could "hide" things from them... . or just be private about it.  There is history of her telling them to buzz off on other issues... . so there is hope there.

I could be over thinking this... . but also want to have put thought into this before it comes up.

[Grey Kitty]

I'd say you are overthinking it.

I am hopeful that we are on the start of a course of effective treatment.  If I see positive changes start and uBPDw FOO starts pushing her to quit treatment or other wise interfere... . wondering what I do.

Address your wife's behavior as best you can. They may influence her, but do not control her--her choices are her choices. (If she says something like "sis is making me do X" or "Mom is making me do Y" you might point out that she gets to choose her own actions, even if they want or tell her to do something else... . just like she gets to choose her own actions whatever you say or want!

[formflier]

I'd say you are overthinking it.

First time I have ever overthought something... . I assure you!