S12 says he doesn't feel empathy

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I used to describe S12 as having "big feelings." About a month ago, we were watching a movie and he said to me that he doesn't think he has any empathy. When something bad happened to one of the characters, he said it didn't make him feeling anything at all. Then today, he told me his class was watching a movie where all by one of the characters die, and again he said that he didn't feel any empathy. I asked him if he didn't feel empathy, or felt sad but didn't want anyone to know. He said he didn't feel any empathy.

:'(

I asked him how that made him feel, and he said it bothered him.

He's hitting the teen years where it's getting hard to sustain deep conversations with him. He immediately said, "I don't want to talk about this anymore." Even though I had only asked him two questions.

Not sure what this is about. Or what to say. If anything.

He hasn't seen his dad for three weeks. I filed an emergency suspension of visitation, and our hearing is in 2 weeks. Before that, S12 was seeing his dad 16 hours a month. So not a lot of contact with his dad right now. The "no empathy" thing started before visitation was suspended.

[livednlearned]

I used to describe S12 as having "big feelings." About a month ago, we were watching a movie and he said to me that he doesn't think he has any empathy. When something bad happened to one of the characters, he said it didn't make him feeling anything at all. Then today, he told me his class was watching a movie where all by one of the characters die, and again he said that he didn't feel any empathy. I asked him if he didn't feel empathy, or felt sad but didn't want anyone to know. He said he didn't feel any empathy.

:'(

I asked him how that made him feel, and he said it bothered him.

He's hitting the teen years where it's getting hard to sustain deep conversations with him. He immediately said, "I don't want to talk about this anymore." Even though I had only asked him two questions.

Not sure what this is about. Or what to say. If anything.

He hasn't seen his dad for three weeks. I filed an emergency suspension of visitation, and our hearing is in 2 weeks. Before that, S12 was seeing his dad 16 hours a month. So not a lot of contact with his dad right now. The "no empathy" thing started before visitation was suspended.

[Turkish]

That must be tough, and perhaps scary... . especially considering his NPD father. Do you think he's mirroring his dad, in a way? I wonder if his dad said things like that in similar situations? Do you think he has a cognitive definition of what empathy exactly is?

I wonder about people who don't have empathy, or a mature sense of it (like my uBPDx... . I picked up on this years ago as self-centeredness and a lack of mercy). Do they have empathy for themselves, or is it driven by shame?

[livednlearned]

I mentioned it to S12's counselor today after S12 went to hang out in the waiting area. She said her guess is it's not exactly empathy that he's describing, but she was pretty concerned. Her sense is that he is putting up walls to deal with the stuff around his dad, and it's starting to affect other areas of his life. And she thinks that middle school probably creates a lot of conditions where he has to put those walls up, so he's getting lots of practice even when it isn't about his dad directly.

S12 used to have a lot of empathy -- he also had a T say that he was either stuffing his feelings or being overwhelmed by them. Now, I think he's just stuffing them, and he's somehow figured out how to not be flooded by them.

[Turkish]

I mentioned it to S12's counselor today after S12 went to hang out in the waiting area. She said her guess is it's not exactly empathy that he's describing, but she was pretty concerned. Her sense is that he is putting up walls to deal with the stuff around his dad, and it's starting to affect other areas of his life. And she thinks that middle school probably creates a lot of conditions where he has to put those walls up, so he's getting lots of practice even when it isn't about his dad directly.

S12 used to have a lot of empathy -- he also had a T say that he was either stuffing his feelings or being overwhelmed by them. Now, I think he's just stuffing them, and he's somehow figured out how to not be flooded by them.

You know, thinking back on myself, my mom observed me to have a lot of empathy, even at 3 years old. Very helpful, caring towards others (I was born a co-dependent, ha). Of course, when I hit my teen years, and things got really bad with my BPD-lite mother, I did go through a phase which might be described as "emo" if the kids even use that term any more. Wore black a lot (though I didn't hang with "that" crowd, I was a loner). I started thinking of myself as emotionless, like Spock. Feelings are "weak" and stuff like that. To be truthful, I didn't really believe that, but it is what I projected outward. I think "stuffing" is a good way to look at it, and he's telling you in a way that he is. The fact that there is communication between you still is good.

[Nope]

Are you worried that he may become like his dad? Or are you worried that he's just that shut down right now and it isn't good for him?

[hopeforhappiness10]

Recently, I showed my counselor a recording on my cell phone of my BLP-D21 anger towords me in which she wanted to see me die  or kill me. This was because I turned my phone off after listen to you verbal abuse towards me because I could not fix her problems with guys. My counselor speculated that my daugher might be more of a socialpath or worse a Psychopath.  Fortunately, my daugher does have empathy towards others but her emotions cause her such hysteria that she does not even realize what she is doing and saying anymore when she is in this state of raging towards me. Plus, she has not exibited any other traits of psychopath. Yet, With many of these disorders, there are so many symptom overlaps.  Are you sure your son is dianosised correctly? Lack of empathy more strongly falls under other personality disorders. I'm just suggesting this because from the way I understand treatment, the earlier they are treated the better chance of developing good coping strategies. Trust me, it is so much harder after they are 18 to get them help because they are more inclined to refuse help thinking you are the problem and legally it is difficult to make them seek help.  I am sure you know reading these board with adult kids who suffer from mental illiness or substance abuse.  Good luck.  You have my prayers that you find answers to your sons problems.

[livednlearned]

Are you worried that he may become like his dad? Or are you worried that he's just that shut down right now and it isn't good for him?

More about the latter, that he is creating barriers. Yesterday I talked to a psychiatrist who said, "It's amazing that 1. he's aware about empathy; 2. is concerned he doesn't have it; and 3. can talk to you about it. He also doesn't think that S12 lacks empathy, but probably realized that he could put a fence around his feelings -- not an unusual coping mechanism. Not any different than me, actually. My childhood, I did the same.

I was thinking that because I'm a single mom and S12 is an only child, there really aren't a lot of opportunities for me to guide him with peers, especially difficult peers he encounters at school. So this summer, I signed him up for a social skills class. Four boys to a class, plus a male counselor. It will be hour-long sessions once a week for seven weeks. If it's a good fit, there is a longer program that runs throughout the school year. The psychiatrist thought that could be really helpful for S12. It will allow him to experience difficult feelings in a therapeutic, safe setting, and he can see how an adult male handles these situations in healthy ways. It's partly covered by insurance, so I'll have to figure out how to pay for the rest, but with everything going on (S12 no longer seeing his dad), I think this might be a good opportunity for him. I told him about it last week and he was pretty mad at me, but mostly because he hates the idea of being in a new social situation.

Are you sure your son is dianosised correctly? Lack of empathy more strongly falls under other personality disorders. I'm just suggesting this because from the way I understand treatment, the earlier they are treated the better chance of developing good coping strategies.

Thanks for the prayers, hope. I don't think S12 has a PD, and his T doesn't see early signs. I do think he has a sensitive genotype, and he was diagnosed ADHD and ODD. But the therapist who assessed him, and continues to treat him, thinks the ODD was a symptom of the tension running in our home. Moving out and away from N/BPDx immediately reduced the anxiety, and S12 really evened out. N/BPDx is likely bipolar -- his mom is treated and diagnosed. I'm just paying really careful attention, trying to help S12 find healthy ways to deal with stress and negative feelings.

I feel better hearing two mental healthy professionals say that they don't think S12 is experiencing a lack of empathy so much as developing a thicker skin. Not that it's great -- just that it's not as worrying as a potential PD.

[momtara]

The fact that he knows the word, and is concerned he doesn't have it, shows some kindness and thinking.  Is it possible he has overheard things about his father never having it, and he's worried that could happen to him?

[livednlearned]

The fact that he knows the word, and is concerned he doesn't have it, shows some kindness and thinking.  Is it possible he has overheard things about his father never having it, and he's worried that could happen to him?

He and I talked about empathy years ago when a counselor in his after school program showed the kids some videos taken by parents who filmed their kids reactions when they told them they had eaten all their Halloween candy. It was something that Jimmy Kimmel invited parents to do, and the videos ran on his show.

S12 got really upset, because lots of the kids in the videos were crying or angry (thinking their parents had eaten the candy).

There was a bit of a dust-up about it online, so S12 and I read through comments from parents who thought Kimmel had gone too far. I ended up talking to S12 about empathy -- telling him that he had empathy, that's why he felt the way he did thinking about how the kids in the videos felt. And that not everyone feels empathy.

[Forward2free]

Hi LnL - sometimes I wonder if our own heightened sense of empathy etc makes us hyper aware and analytically challenged?

Not a day goes by where I don't see red flags in my kids and when I speak with my sisters, parents, teachers and friends, I am always shocked to hear them recount similar stories of other kids - with no BPD/N background. It seems my kids behaviours are more "normal" than I realised.

Perhaps it's possible that as your son enters his early teen years, with hormonal changes etc, he'll be dealing with mixed emotions all the time. I agree with others here that he's found words to describe how he feels, and he's told you, and that's a real credit to you.

You have set up an amazing network for your son to explore his feelings safely and communicate them. You're his safe place and his barometer for the world and how you react let's him know if it's ok or not.

"How does that make you feel?" is a great question - but it's huge. It might take some time for him to think of the answer for you.

[livednlearned]

Yesterday I saw my T. I haven't been for about a year (I'm broke). I talked about S12's empathy issue with her.

I told her about S12 saying he thought he was losing empathy. A few days ago he got in the car and said he felt like he was becoming meaner. I had read that empathy declines in boys between 13-18, and told him. He said, ":)oes it come back?" He seemed relieved that it might be normal to lose empathy.

But my T said she doesn't think it's a decline in empathy. She thinks he is learning to disassociate. Her analogy was two faucets, one for intelligence, the other for feelings. He has learned to turn off his feelings faucet. If he turns off the faucet because he can't handle the negative emotions, he won't experience the positive ones.

A few months ago, I took S12 to a middle school youth group event at church. No lessons, just fun and hanging out with other kids. He didn't want to participate. Just sulked in the commons area and gave me the stink eye the whole time. When we got in the car, I got upset with him for the first time in a long time, and broke this vow I have to not talk about his dad in negative ways. I told him his dad never did anything with him as a kid, and we're wired for connection, and he can't give up socially like that without even trying. S12 got really mad at me, and told him to not talk about his dad like that.

My T said that S12 got angry because the hurt feelings are too intense. I brought up something true and painful, and he shut me down with anger. She thinks he is learning to disassociate because the feelings are too painful. He doesn't want me to say what is true because then he has to experience how he truly feels.

She also pointed out that I did this too. It's how I coped.

I can see now that I wanted him to just be a kid, to get through the divorce and be a regular kid. I handled everything with a lot of composure and strength. T says he is learning to do what I do, and that by telling him his job is to be a kid, and by being the super human strong adult, he is learning to put aside vulnerability so he can be strong too. Not realizing that not being vulnerable isn't strong, it's lonely.

My assignment is to talk to him this weekend. T said to focus on S12's observation that he is losing empathy, and to link that to his claims that he can "handle things with his dad." That yes he can handle them, but the cost is very high -- he can turn his faucet off with his dad if that feels safe, but he has to let the faucet run when he is with people he trusts, people who are safe. And she said to be very honest with S12 about how his dad has serious problems. That N/BPDx will say one thing, do another, and that is not likely to change. He says things not based in reality. And that it's important to know what is real -- to not expect that it's obvious when his dad is saying what is real, what isn't real.

This is going to be hard.

My T said that he might be angry, but that likely he will be relieved. Maybe not right away. She said it is important for him to feel his feelings, and to know that he is going to be ok.

It reminds me how much of my own dynamic is in play. I feel stunned how similar S12's responses are to mine, growing up with a narcissistic dad. Right in front of my eyes, and I didn't even see it.