Some detachment techniques don't make sense

[fatherofthree]

I'm reading "Stop Walking on Eggshells."  Great book, and I've learned so much... . I only wish that my wife was diagnosed earlier in our marriage, and we could have sought treatment earlier.  I would have known what to do. 

Few questions though for my current situation, most of which concern detachment.  I'm currently going through a divorce (not by choice).  If the divorce goes through, I don't think I would want her back.  She constantly tells me that she doesn't trust me, specifically that I won't yell at her anymore or threaten divorce.  Her reasons for the divorce basically equate to issues with trust and blaming everything on me.

I have been begging her to stay (multiple reasons including the children, we're married, etc.) and it is only pushing her away further.  Most of our time together lately has been me attempting to point out her behaviors.  We talk for hours.  I get so frustrated because it's like common sense, cause and effect behaviors that she's been doing doesn't compute in her mind.  I.e. if you cheat on me or when you're still "just being friends" and contacting the former lovers instead of watching the children, I might be a little upset about it.  She can't stop lying.

I feel like I'm in a no-win situation:

1. Not contacting her, talking to her, or showing her attention shows that I'm abandoning her.  She can't stand for me to ignore her (silent treatment) for more than a couple of hours and wants me to interact with her.  Now I feel like I'm showing her too much attention.  I feel like I'm only around to serve her needs.  Very little to nothing in return. 

2. Losing her to get her back.  The divorce is probably going to happen regardless of what I want.  She wants to be alone.  I know that's exactly what she doesn't want, but she's still doing it.  I'm willing to let go to show her what the real world is like and how good she had it with me.  This would be giving her exactly what she wants.  However, I don't want a marriage based on financial support and benefit for her.  Gotta set those boundaries and limits.

3. Arguments.  If I engage, she blows up.  If I keep my calm, speak concisely and never raise my voice, she has dramatic changes.  She becomes calm, says sorry, etc., etc.  I've literally been in tears from how she talks to me.  I've had a nervous breakdown from it. 

4. Talking.  Kind of hit this point earlier.  She doesn't want to talk about real-life things, i.e. problems, finances, etc.  I feel like I should act like a 17 year old, and then maybe we'd get along great.  I can't talk about our problems.  She hates it.  It's an endless cycle. 

5. Confronting.  If I confront her on something, such as the infidelity, she dismisses it or blows up on me.  "You'll never forgive me."  I have tried to forgive her.  However, I also want her to stop the inappropriate behaviors and focus on being my wife.  Then she says that I'm controlling. 


I really feel like abandoning her (leaving her to her own devises) is the only way to cause the change that I want.  It would be completely amazing if I didn't love her anymore and I could just walk away.  However, her decisions are still going to impact me and the children regardless of whether or not we're married.  Any advice?

[arjay]

... . "Most of our time together lately has been me attempting to point out her behaviors"... .

... . I really feel like abandoning her (leaving her to her own devises) is the only way to cause the change that I want. "

Greetings.  I don't normally post here for many reasons.  I did however catch a few lines in your post that I thought were revealing.  I can relate because I did go through a divorce with my uBPD.  I was in counseling as well during that time trying to save what we had.  

Attempting to "point things out" not only didnt work for me, but it made things worse and frankly doesn't even work in a healthy relationship.  "Let me tell you all the things you are doing wrong" is typically how it comes across no matter the delivery.  Your other comment suggest you are trying to "cause the change that I want".  If your wife is a diagnosed borderline, it is you that will have to change as much as you wish for her to do the same.  She may not even feel she needs to do so, meaning you are one that will have to consider concepts like "radical acceptance"; validation techniques and more. You need tools "especially if" your wife was not considering divorce and they will help you in dealing with post-divorce, your relationship with her and the children "even if" she does go through with it.

These types of relationships challenge us in ways we simply were not prepared to deal with.  If the non is not going to accept responsibility for change, recognizing he/she is in a relationship with a person that has a clinical diagnosis for their behavior and they may never see it, then it is nearly an exercise in futility.  Try doing what YOU can to make it better instead of thinking SHE is going to change.  There is tons of information including workshops and more here, all designed to help.

Peace

.

[fatherofthree]

Arjay,

Thanks for the reply.  It's so difficult to try (all meanings of that word) with someone who tells you that they "f-ing hate you" and then asks for you to continue to support them (all meanings) after the divorce.  

I know that the long talks don't do anything.  Pointing out reasonable requests does nothing.  Talking about problems does nothing.  Maybe that's why we got this far.  I never used to talk about those things.  I did my own thing to make me happy.

What's the "right" thing for me?  I'm realizing more and more that its all about my children.  They're completely helpless to fend for themselves, or choose who raises them.  

Do I want my BPD wife bringing other men around?  NO, I DON'T.

Would I be willing to sacrifice to keep the family together?  Yes.  Been doing that for a while.

Should I change?  Absolutely, I've made leaps and bounds in my own personal life.

Are there still changes that I need to make.  Absolutely. Those take time.  Filing for divorce isn't giving it time.

Need to learn tools or methods?  I'm studying like a mad-man!

Are borderlines incapable of seeing how their behavior rips the heart out of others?   Apparently not.

Funny thing about me changing.  I was told that she'd know that I have changed if I take the divorce offer (I take all of the debt since she's incapable of paying any of it back) and not fight for full custody of the kids.  My counter offer is that neither of us have to lose the kids, and we both work towards paying off the debt and working on ourselves.  

Apparently that's not good enough for her.

So in the divorce, should I take the offer and let her push me around in the hopes that she'll start to trust me or defend myself and fight for my children?  I don't want to see them half of their adolescence.  I want to be there for them each and every day.  All the money in the world won't replace them.  I grew up in broken homes.  I most certainly don't want that for them.  

The fact is that the ball is in her court.  You are absolutely right; the only person that I can change is me.  That's is happening and will continue to happen regardless of the outcome.  I'm willing to do that; absolutely certain that she is not unfortunately.

[arjay]

You sound like a man of conviction and someone working hard on himself too.  I really commend you for wanting to do what you feel is right.  

I didn't have children with my ex but did have my daughter present, and I do know how difficult it can be to maintain a healthy atmosphere in the middle of what seems to deteriorate at times to  raw emotions.

I cannot tell you what to do and nobody really can either.  I can however suggest that you use this site and all the information you can find, to help you with either trying to make it work, or moving on, whichever is the ultimate path.  There are so many similar experiences from other posters, that hopefully you may find some level of validation, something we typically don't receive from our BPD partner.

Sadly by the time we are searching for answers (or sites like here), it is often preceded by several to many years of an unhealthy situation.  It makes it even tougher to suddenly consider approaches like Radical Acceptance and Validation, when we are so beaten down.

Keep up the great work you are doing for yourself, knowing in the end you are the benefactor of it regardless of how things unfold.  Sometimes in the process of change, we can actually make things better too.

Peace to you

[Mutt]

Hi fatherofthree,

I don't normally go unto the undecided board, but I saw your post and I hope you don't mind, I moved it to family law.

I read your intro, and we have a lot of similarities. I'm going through an unwanted divorce and I have 3 kids that are almost the same age as yours. I'm so sorry that you and the kids are going through this. Infidelity, divorce and little ones is tough. I just wanted to share with you that I had to make the difficult choice of abandoning the marriage and fighting for the kids. That's my two cents. It's for you to choose what you want to do. I've left you in the capable hands of experienced members here. You'll get the most practical feedback and insight, pitfalls to avoid as you journey the road ahead.

[momtara]

I think in your mind you partly hope the divorce will show her how tough life is without her, and then she will want you back (or finally get counseling and make a change).  Divorce is a lot to go through with that goal in mind.  Even if you aren't the one pushing for it, don't count on it causing change.  Maybe trying to distance yourself (while still responding if she reaches out to you - but having boundaries) is a way to go.  Then she can choose to call off the divorce or not.  I'm just thinking off the top of my head.  It IS tricky in that you are not supposed to abandon her, but don't want to let her walk all over you either.  Maybe someone else can talk sense into her.  I'm not sure. 

The other men seem like a real dealbreaker to me.  Criticizing you until you're in tears isn't great either, but the cheating is pretty tough. 

Even people with BPD who want to change have a hard time with it often.  You are like a lot of us - you wish she could just snap out of it so that the good part of her could be ALL of her.  I get it - I know!

[fatherofthree]

Many, many thanks to momtara, mutt, and arjay. 

I chalk the cheating up to her mental illness.  I forgave her months ago, but it's her behavior now that I'm most concerned with.  However, and a big however, it sort of dawned on me that the reason that I'm holding on so hard is because of the kids.  I can't imagine a world where I only get to see them half of the time.  No amount of money in the world is worth that.  Especially to have them turn out like her. 

I sincerely do wish that she could just change.  She has been an amazing mother in the past.  Then all of a sudden, she broke and the floodgates opened. 

momtara's right on.  I've been trying to talk to her = goes absolutely nowhere.  Now, I'm going to show that I am changing/changed to myself.  I'm going to put my own needs aside for as long as it takes.  If I get the kids, she'll have the choice to decide whether or not she wants to be part of the family.  Either way, I'm not going to try to fix her problems.

She actually filed first!  I couldn't believe it.  After what she did, it's crazy.  She says that she did it to protect herself... . doesn't make sense, cause I couldn't bring myself to filing on her... . I had actually gone twice and just simply couldn't do it.  I threatened divorce, which is an obvious mistake (page 86 of Stop Walking on Eggshells.)  I just wish that I knew all of this years ago!

Thanks all!

[david]

My ex filed for divorce to protect herself too. I thought about that when it happened and it made no sense. Looking back I realize it does in a way.If she fears abandonement and suspects you will file for divorce then if she files first she protects herself from the abandonment. Yes, That is not rational but there is a certain kind of logic to that thinking. Denial is a very strong defense mechanism and can create a twisted logic.

[ForeverDad]

I was told that she'd know that I have changed if I take the divorce offer (I take all of the debt since she's incapable of paying any of it back) and not fight for full custody of the kids.

Sheer dumb advice, I hope you didn't pay for it.  It might work with reasonably normal people but it doesn't work with our sorts of PD cases.  So don't expect 'reciprocity'.  Cluster B acting-out disorders such as with BPD, NPD, ASPD, HPD PPD, etc mean that it is very unlikely you being nice or fair would make her be nice or fair.  In other words, don't take a butter knife to a gun fight.

Cheating, threats, demands, false allegations, etc

I'll group them all together just to state that if it's been contemplated, threatened or occurred, then it will happen or happen again.  Don't expect for her to suddenly behave better or to suddenly be all recovered either without you or with someone else.

You can't fix her, you can't even reason with her, you've been in a deep emotional relationship with her of the closest sort and she can't hear anything you say because of all the emotional baggage that gets in the way.  Unless she gets into serious therapy (DBT or CBT is often recommended) with an emotionally neutral professional, applies it to herself and sticks with it for years, then she's unlikely to change.  Period.  We wish it were otherwise, but that's the impact of this disorder.

BPD is a disorder most evident in close relationships, the closer you are, the worse it gets.  However distance doesn't mean you'll be treated better.  (I've been divorced for over six years and I've stayed rejected as the Bad Guy all these years, not once did she ever suggest reconciliation.  Toward the end of our marriage, massively triggered by having a child, and ever since hers has been a world of Black OR White, no Gray.  Others have had similar experiences.  Not everyone is totally blacklisted but enough of us are that any potential reunions have to be done with extreme caution.)

I get so frustrated because it's like common sense, cause and effect behaviors that she's been doing doesn't compute in her mind.

You can't make sense of mental illness.  And she isn't sufficiently ill for her to be committed, in the general public she may seem only a little off.  With BPD the worst behaviors are in private settings, such as at home or in the car where there are few witnesses.  And so that makes it hard for family court to determine consequences.  Sadly, poor behaviors with you alone is often not seen as a basis to limit her parenting or increase your parenting.  Be aware that family court and evaluators too generally are concerned with mostly the parenting behaviors.  While it is important to report the poor adult behaviors (with you), emphasize more her poor parenting behaviors since that will get the most attention.

Also, courts and evaluators don't want you "playing doctor" and pushing for a diagnosis.  Frankly, amazingly few of use ever have heard of a diagnosis.  My custody evaluator even told me he was only to report what would be best for custody, he specifically stated he was not doing to diagnose either of us.  Most courts place behaviors and behavior patterns as basis for decisions and so we are wise if we too do so.  If you get a diagnosis, great, but otherwise document and emphasize the behaviors, especially the parenting behaviors.

It's probably not a good idea to go into court stating you oppose a divorce.  While you can say you'd prefer not to divorce, you don't want to appear to have concerning 'control' issues.  Frankly, no court will stop a spouse from getting a divorce, it may slow it down with 'cooling off' periods, but it won't stop one.  Accept that.

Also, don't say you want the children more to avoid child support.  If she's not working tell the court you do want her to start working to become self sufficient in her post-marriage life.  She's an adult, she's capable.  But you possibly would still have to pay child support.  In my case, I was ordered to pay $XXX when court initially stuck me with alternate weekends.  About 5 years later when I had equal time and court again recalculated child support, the calculations said I owed more than before!  Possibly there were some inflation adjustments, but getting equal time didn't really reduce my child support by much at all, if anything.

Finally let me give you what I can only describe as a warning.  Don't walk into family court thinking this will be a cakewalk, that court will see everything your way and rule for how you think is best with little or no impact.  Do that and you'll get ripped apart, emotionally, financially, and even parentally.  Why, how?  She probably senses that the children are her weapons.  She will use them against you.  Yes, not right, doesn't make sense, but very likely to happen.  And forget the claims of "no gender bias", the courts often have an unwritten, unstated but default preference for mothers or at least it works out that way.  Accept that reality and formulate a strategy to deal with typical court processes.  Do you have SPLITTING: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger?  It's good not just for you but for your lawyer as well.

How much parenting do you have now?  Is she cooperating at all with father-child contact?  Until you get into family court to get the initial temporary order it's pretty much a free-for-all.  Do try to get the best order possible regarding the children and your schedule from the very beginning, it will be immensely difficult to fix things later.  From the very first parenting time schedule.

[livednlearned]

Hey fatherofthree,

It's a tough spot you're in.

I was told that she'd know that I have changed if I take the divorce offer (I take all of the debt since she's incapable of paying any of it back) and not fight for full custody of the kids.

So in the divorce, should I take the offer and let her push me around in the hopes that she'll start to trust me or defend myself and fight for my children?   

The fact is that the ball is in her court.  You are absolutely right; the only person that I can change is me.  That's is happening and will continue to happen regardless of the outcome.  I'm willing to do that; absolutely certain that she is not unfortunately.

The way it works with high-conflict divorces like ours is that the ball cannot be in her court -- not if you want a good outcome for your kids. She isn't playing around, and is 10 steps ahead. If she hired an aggressive lawyer, you are at risk. Whoever files first is at a slight advantage, not just legally, but emotionally.

Don't make any bargains with her in the hopes that a deal will make her change. Until you understand how the legal system works, don't make any deals at all.

You need to set a goal for yourself (whether it's full custody or primary custody), and develop a strategy. Find out how things work in your state and hire a lawyer who understands BPD if you can. Talk to three or four attorneys and ask people here what kinds of questions you should ask (consultations range per hour depending on where you live). Before you talk to lawyers, read Splitting by Bill Eddy (co-written by Randi Kreger, who wrote Stop Walking on Eggshells) and get a therapist so you can work through the detachment issues while the divorce rolls forward. Otherwise, you are going to sabotage your relationship with your kids in an attempt to appease your wife.

In custody battles, the early decisions are critically important. Once you sign something, it takes enormous expense and evidence to change it, if that's even possible. Divorce is like a long hallway, and each document you sign closes a door you can't open again. Two years from now when you are detached and see that you gave up your shirt, you can't tell a judge that you were still in love with your wife back when you signed it, and thought she was going to change. It doesn't work that way.

At the very least, learn how things work with custody and divorce, and don't make any decisions until you understand the implications. Most lawyers won't explain things to you very well -- that's what friends here are for. Splitting is an excellent resource.

No one here wanted divorce. Most people here were nearly heroic in trying to save their marriages. But once divorce is activated, you can't dither. Court does not care whether you're ready, or what emotional state you're in. They have a case, and the case is active, and it's going forward with or without your full attention.

Also -- this is a side note, but it is considered legally unethical to mix financial stuff with custody. Nevermind that her offer -- you pay all the debt and she gets all the custody -- leaves you with nothing but a tire track down one side of your body.

I hope I haven't been too blunt. The tone on Family Law can be very matter-of-fact because we've learned the hard way how custody and courts work, especially when mixed with BPD. It's a rude awakening. 

[fatherofthree]

Foreverdad: No, it was her that was trying to convince me that she could "trust" me more if I settled.  She's basically using that as the reason for the divorce; I don't trust you.  But if you give me the divorce and take the beating (emotionally, financially, etc), then I'll trust you.  It's insane.

"You can't make sense of mental illness."  Couldn't agree more.  I'm learning this more and more each day.  BTW, I have been completely split into the bad guy.  I'm very glad that I've become educated on the subject; otherwise I'd be pulling my hair out trying to figure that one out.

She's been telling me things that I supposedly said, which I absolutely did not say, and actually said quite the opposite.  Unbelievable again.

Now that I'm not settling and actually standing up for myself, all of the FOG seems to have lifted.  It's the craziest feeling.  The truth is that it also makes me very sad and empathetic for what she must be going through knowing what I know.  That doesn't mean that I'm going to try to fix it, but I couldn't imagine how she must be feeling... . I'd guess completely, completely empty based on what I've read.   

I am taking a risk going to court, but I have full faith in God.  I don't know what's going to happen, but I know that I have an overwhelming peace about my decision... . something that I haven't had in a very long time.

[The Mrs]

So are you saying you are going for custody of your kids?

I don't know why you should be bullied or intimidated into even considering anything less, if their mother is mentally ill and she is not being properly treated. 

I just recently filed for divorce after being married for 25 years to a man with BPD.

I was the buffer between him and the children and the glue that held the family together.

The oldest, 32 (from his first marriage) still bears the emotional and psychic scars of being raised by this man.  She is just now, as a married woman of 10 years and mother of two  learning to take her life back.  I asked her what changed for her, why now?  Her answer... . she said she had seen the sacrifices that I had made for the family and the fact that I was finally owning my life and future happiness and this gave her permission to do the same. 

The trickle down effect of the FOG permeates in ways you would not believe.

[ForeverDad]

I am taking a risk going to court.

Actually, sometimes the risk is not going to court.  Courts, lawyers and other professionals prefer settlements.  They hope that it will help both spouses to let go of the conflict and move on, somethings that doesn't generally happen in our sorts of cases.  Also, settlements can't be appealed and judges love not having to make decisions.

In cases like ours the court is likely to make better decisions than we'd ever get in settlements with our ex-spouses.  In my case, my ex wanted me to have 0% parenting and actually actively blocked me with denied exchanges and innumerable false allegations.  Court saw that as "I'll fix that" and ordered 22% in alternate weekends.  Eventually, I moved up to 50% and now 77%, but I would never have accomplished that without court decisions along the way.

The oldest, 32 (from his first marriage) still bears the emotional and psychic scars of being raised by this man.  She is just now, as a married woman of 10 years and mother of two  learning to take her life back.  I asked her what changed for her, why now?  Her answer... . she said she had seen the sacrifices that I had made for the family and the fact that I was finally owning my life and future happiness and this gave her permission to do the same.

The trickle down effect of the FOG permeates in ways you would not believe.

Wow.  :)o you see the value of setting boundaries as being an example for the children?  (Sorry, but appeasing and being a Whipping Boy are not good examples.)  She finally stood up and set boundaries - this far but no more - and that positively impacted the children.

[fatherofthree]

So are you saying you are going for custody of your kids?

I don't know why you should be bullied or intimidated into even considering anything less, if their mother is mentally ill and she is not being properly treated. 

Yes, I most certainly am!  My parents, her parents, everyone is clapping their hands telling me... . finally!

Your second comment really got me.  You couldn't be more correct.  We both go to a Psychologist, who is great with certain aspects of normal counseling.  She is clearly not capable of "treating" a BPD based on what I understand regarding DBT.  I'm not an expert, but everyone I talk to about this agrees.  I think that I finally understand how serious this mental illness is.

The Psych stated recently that she could see "large improvements" with my wife.  Not even close to being true.  I hear this constantly now from my wife, who thinks theres little to nothing wrong with her and that I'm the sick one.  Classic BPD.  From the book: "However, if the therapist takes everything that the BP says at face value without probing further - and this is not uncommon - the therapist may inadvertently reinforce the BP's twisting thinking, making matters worse."  Our therapist has straight-up told me that we never had a good marriage, and that we should get divorced.  My wife believed this and filed.  My wife tells me that she realized that she didn't love me in therapy and that I don't make her happy.

The Psych also tried to give us legal advice which was WAY off.

[david]

I read a lot about treating BPD over the last few years. Soem of the really good programs that are more successful actually have the T have their own T in order for them to stay on task and focused. I haven't read of any other mental health situation that has such a set up. My ex has been seeing a T for at least 8 years that I know of. That is a good thing on one hand but the fact that ex is still going after 8 years and I have seen nothing that suggests she has improved makes me question whether this T is helping or not. It may just be that ex has found someone that is validating ex's perceptions and nothing more.

[livednlearned]

The Psych also tried to give us legal advice which was WAY off.

A therapist giving legal advice is like a lawyer providing therapy. 

[fatherofthree]

Speaking of which, her lawyer tried to bulldog me into signing a lopsided agreement.  His words of wisdom regarding her BPD: "Everyone has a personality disorder."   I laughed. 

It's going to be a long wait, but I'm going to stick it out.  Kids come first.