Does S.E.T. work with Queen/Witch types?

[jessienbp]

Or any of the other communication techniques recommended on this board?

Can one soothe neglect/destructiveness? Or is the fact that my mom clearly has NPD -- and I think the "Queen" type of what Lawson lumps together as BPDs, really is NPD; unless the latter is a subset of the former; I am a little confused by that -- anyway, does S.E.T. work on high-functioning Queen/Witches with exaggerated senses of self-esteem, the way it would on what one thinks of as the more typical BPD type? (Needy, fundamentally insecure, etc.)

Since I have to communicate with my mother, and inevitably it turns out badly (she either rages or at the very best doesn't seem to hear me at all), I am hoping one of the methods laid out here would improve things a bit, but not sure if more validation is the way to go with someone who's convinced she's always right in the first place... .

Any insight/advice welcome.

[Louise7777]

I dont have much to offer you, but I feel the same way you do. I never tried this S.E.T technique since Im VLC/ NC when I learnt about it.

I mean, I used SET without realizing it. Showing Support led me to be used, it was an open door to asking for more and more... . Empathy: same as above. Truth: met with rages. Even disagreement on trivial unimportant stuff is met with rages.

Just a reminder: this particular uBPD/ NPD is not my mom, shes my aunt, but she believes in her mind she´s my mother and Im ungrateful for not doing all she wants/ expects from me. I imagine that your mom and her are very alike: always right. Im not sure if shes NPD, BPD, or has strong sadistic traits (or all together), so I know what you are going through and its tough... .

What I used and worked was Medium Chill. I used it with many uPDs, actually. The "disengaging" attitude worked miracles for me. In my case, showing any kind of sympathy, empathy or understanding, was like a free pass to abuse and disrespect. Note that most of my uPDs are control-freaks and attention-seekers, so not giving them power or attention was the best for me... . Hope this helps somehow.

[jessienbp]

I dont have much to offer you, but I feel the same way you do. I never tried this S.E.T technique since Im VLC/ NC when I learnt about it.

I mean, I used SET without realizing it. Showing Support led me to be used, it was an open door to asking for more and more... . Empathy: same as above. Truth: met with rages. Even disagreement on trivial unimportant stuff is met with rages.

Just a reminder: this particular uBPD/ NPD is not my mom, shes my aunt, but she believes in her mind she´s my mother and Im ungrateful for not doing all she wants/ expects from me. I imagine that your mom and her are very alike: always right. Im not sure if shes NPD, BPD, or has strong sadistic traits (or all together), so I know what you are going through and its tough... .

What I used and worked was Medium Chill. I used it with many uPDs, actually. The "disengaging" attitude worked miracles for me. In my case, showing any kind of sympathy, empathy or understanding, was like a free pass to abuse and disrespect. Note that most of my uPDs are control-freaks and attention-seekers, so not giving them power or attention was the best for me... . Hope this helps somehow.

Thanks, Louise, that did help. I have had the same experiences, particularly with Truth being  met with rages. As you said, "Even disagreement on trivial unimportant stuff is met with rages."

It's like she's allergic to truth. Being a pathological liar, I guess she would be.

I will try "medium chill" -- so glad to hear something worked.

Tx!

[jessienbp]

I've looked around but can't find a description of how to do this.

[AsianSon]

Hi jessienbp,

I think the following describes "medium chill":


"Stargazer writes:

" I was just brushing up on a technique that I'll need this weekend to deal with

a BPD relative. It's called " Medium chill " , and it was taught to me by a friend

whose mother suffers from BPD.

Medium chill:

When they lash out - show no anger

When they are nice- don't reciprocate.

Be distant and flat in both cases. When they sense they can't manipulate your

reaction, they tend to leave you alone.

Tell them nothing, ask them nothing, and offer vacuous pleasantries. Medium

chill gives no appearance of withdrawal, so they can't accuse you of giving them

the cold shoulder. You are there, you're just not present to them.

Medium Chill is effective because they no longer feel " safe " in their ability to

generate chaos. So now you're back in control. It takes a bit of practice, as

you have to learn to disconnect from them emotionally. But I've had some great

success using this.

When I first came to these boards, I read about boundaries and Limited Contact.

They all made sense, and I felt as if I had been doing them already for a very

long time. The same friend who introduced me to these boards also introduced me

to the concept of medium chill, though I must admit it took a little while and

practice for to " get it " that Medium Chill is something more that taps into the

psyche and become the Medium Chill Zen Master. It's a bit late here and I'm

more than a touch tired, so I might not be particularly eloquent as I type this

tonight... .

It's about more than just boundaries.

To put it in simpler terms, it's a two-parter with a specific attitude:

(1) never share personal or private information on yourself;

(2) never get involved in their problems/drama;

(attitude) pleasant, modest, implacably calm-- never showing anger or

compassionate involvement; paying attention but not too much attention-- while

NEVER violating items one or two

Remember, a person can only use information they know about you to find your hot

buttons and use it against you if they're highly manipulative (like so many BPDs

are). So don't let them know your hot buttons.

Does your BPD pick fights with you when something is wrong with him/her? Then

by being a dull listener, they'll get bored and move on to someone they have a

greater effect upon. I swear, it really does work.

Are you unwittingly giving them the roadmap to figure out what you're sensitive

about, so they can exploit those things later on to make YOU upset when THEY are

upset but can't deal with those emotions on their own like a healthy adult?

Are you offering advice or help with only the best of intentions? Well, if

things go wrong, and they CAN'T blame themselves as part of BPD, who do you

think they're going to blame? Are you just putting yourself in the line of

eventual fire without realizing it?

If they're angry and they get you angry, then they can successfully transfer the

emotions they can't cope with onto you (projection).

If they're angry and lashing out, they get relief from their inner turmoil by

getting YOU upset. So don't ever show yourself getting upset. If they're upset

and they can make you upset too, their goal has been achieved. I swear, as it

worked for the other poster, it worked for me too-- my BPD mother rather quickly

would see who was the most active listener and turn her energies there. I was

no longer a means to an end; she no longer got relief from her inner pain by

making me feel pain too.

Of course, one of my physical boundaries was to not do a one-on-one meeting with

her again in non-public places; this played very well into medium chill.

There's always someone more unenlightened and more of a sucker than you that

they target instead. It might be an unfortunate still-enmeshed family member;

it might be the waiter. But the point is, it will NOT BE YOU.

Likewise, don't especially share their joys when they're on a high. If they

come to view you as a confidente/soulmate, who do you think they're going to

turn to when their rage is highest and they need to foist it off onto someone

else?

It's all about disengaging from playing into the messed up BPD dynamic. We

often talk about boundaries around here, like only speaking once a week on the

phone, or not staying overnight in their houses, or a host of other physical

actions of restraint... .

... . " Medium chill " techniques, however, are boundaries for your soul.

~ Stargazer "


I think my brother-in-law naturally does this with my BPDm, and it works for him.  But I do not think it works for me in dealing with her queen/waif/witch tendencies.  Her reactions would quickly react to "medium chill" by latching onto "you don't care about me."

So I have been focusing on SET, where the Truth may or may not be a boundary.  Of course that can bring on a bad reaction, but it tends to become an issue of boundaries and consistently maintaining them. 

Best of luck and wishes to you. 

A

[jessienbp]

Thanks, A.

[Contradancer]

I have a Queen-Witch mother. Some times SET works a bit because of the empathy, but I do often have to dance around truth. I always try to include truth, but soften it as necessary to the individual circumstance.

Yes, Medium Chill is part of my life.

[Louise7777]

Im glad I helped.

Let me just clarify something: my understanding is medium chill (or even SET) is not supposed to change them. First we have to accept that the PD is here to stay. Those techniques are just ways to deal with the situation, not to cure the PD. In my opinion, they are tools to prevent US from being hurt, attacked, etc. They are not supposed to make the PDed person to become "normal" and react/ behave in a "normal way". To me, they are like "damage control" tools.

Medium Chill worked for me cause I realized (after decades) that no matter how much I did, it was never enough. They were never happy and I felt more and more miserable, disrespected and drained. It leads to a very superficial interaction, but thats all I can get from them anyway. Once you practice "radical acceptance" you give up on the idea of a give-and-take warm caring r/s with a PD.

[AsianSon]

Im glad I helped.

Let me just clarify something: my understanding is medium chill (or even SET) is not supposed to change them. First we have to accept that the PD is here to stay. Those techniques are just ways to deal with the situation, not to cure the PD. In my opinion, they are tools to prevent US from being hurt, attacked, etc. They are not supposed to make the PDed person to become "normal" and react/ behave in a "normal way". To me, they are like "damage control" tools.

Complete agreement here. 

A

[BabeRuthless]

"Medium chill" and SET concepts sound helpful. They relate to realization I had last night after receiving a letter from my Queen/Waif uBPD mother, who is working Al-Anon steps and communicated with me by mail to make amends (step nine).

While I feel gratitude for her honesty and willingness to apologize, I am also wary. The small child part of me wants to run to her, believe that "everything is all better," and that she has Changed. My mature, rational self knows better. I believe she is sincere, but in the way a five-year-old in a 74-year-old body is. While not being cynical, I want to use "wise mind."

She is coming to visit in a week and a half for my niece's high school graduation and staying with my husband and me for three nights. I am uneasy. Since receiving letter yesterday, I think I'd better keep our time scheduled to reduce danger of getting into loaded, emotional conversations (that always end up being about her). But it's oh-so-easy for me to fall prey to temptation to tell her how she's hurt me and my BPD-trait twin sister, how I've suffered, etc. I don't want to make myself vulnerable to this. While not withholding from her out of rage or moral superiority (as I've done often in past), I want to keep my own counsel. The ideas in this thread will help me. Thanks to all.     

[JackBlacknBlue]

I have tried SET and the medium chill.  With SET I have needed to use distraction quite a bit when a situation has gone from 0-60 quickly, as it tends to do.  If I know I cannot maintain my "cool", I invent a reason to buy some time - e.g. need to go to bathroom or finish a task or something that gives me and her a break from the situation.  Then I can compose my supportive, empathetic messages.  Sometimes, by the time the distraction is over, the issue is done in her mind and I don't even reintroduce with S or E.  Medium chill works well for me when things have not yet escalated.  It tends to keep things more even, at least I feel that way.  Sometimes she tries to goat me, increasing the level to see what she can get me to react to.  I find it very hard to maintain but am continuing to practice.   

[livednlearned]

Another good tool is wise mind. There's a workshop here that I've found helpful: TOOLS: Triggering, Mindfulness, and the Wise Mind

I have found that SET works best for me when I'm in "wise mind." It also helps me be more genuinely radically detached, and that makes boundaries easier to hold. The BPD people in my life have an incredible capacity to sense emotionally what state I'm in -- they are all very articulate, fast-talking, and smart. I just got spun like a bottle in conversations until I learned to center myself. It didn't stop them trying to spin me, but it helped me stop myself from being spun, if that makes sense.

I do think SET is trickier with very narcissistic people, and I think Queen types tend to have more pronounced narcissistic traits. I also think SET takes a lot of practice. I started to use it with co-workers, colleagues, and friends, even customer service people, and sort of muddled my way through and built some confidence with it.

It's hard to do -- I think those of us with PD parents felt like we had to adjust our reality for them so much, so the idea of acknowledging anything they might be experiencing can trigger emotions we associate with bending their way. That's why the wise mind is so important. It's much easier to acknowledge the feelings of someone else (the S and E in SET) if I'm very centered in my own. It's also much easier to detach if they respond to the Truth in SET if I'm grounded in wise mind.

My n-trait father has a very brittle ego when it comes to Truth. He tends to respond with silent treatment, and wise mind helps with that too.

[BabeRuthless]

Lived: This is so helpful... . thank you.

I am getting ready for my uBPD mother to stay with my husband and me for three nights and want to at least read this material before Sunday. Want to learn about "wise mind," as I get triggered by my mother so easily, and get "spun," as you said.

I also have deep resentment about trying the sympathy and empathy pieces of SET with her, as I have changed my own reality my entire life to try to accommodate her and to keep the peace at any cost.

Want to remember that "wise mind" has to do, right now for me, primarily with my own well being, and is not an effort to change or control her. Thanks again for such helpful post. 

[livednlearned]

Lived: This is so helpful... . thank you.

I am getting ready for my uBPD mother to stay with my husband and me for three nights and want to at least read this material before Sunday. Want to learn about "wise mind," as I get triggered by my mother so easily, and get "spun," as you said.

I also have deep resentment about trying the sympathy and empathy pieces of SET with her, as I have changed my own reality my entire life to try to accommodate her and to keep the peace at any cost.

Want to remember that "wise mind" has to do, right now for me, primarily with my own well being, and is not an effort to change or control her. Thanks again for such helpful post. 

My mom just stayed with me for 12 days. She isn't BPD, but she sure can press my buttons.    She used tears in a very manipulative way my whole life -- my n-trait dad had a uBPD hermit/waif mom, so I guess that feels familiar to him. The past couple of years I've changed my dynamic in the family, and that bothers my mom. She wants the old enabling, appeasing, enmeshed daughter back, and spends a lot of effort trying to revert things.

I kinda built myself up before the visit with this idea that I was going to be in wise mind the entire time. 

Didn't quite work out that way.    So I started to focus on feeling good about the times I could do it. If you can do it once, then focus on that, how it feels, what worked. No need to feel bad about trying to feel good 

[kmack]

Love the "Medium Chill" tactic.  If I ever get out of the deep freeze with my BPD daughter-in-law I will give it a try.  Unfortunately, she read a text I sent to my son's phone about BPD and now she is seriously hating on me.  After reading through some of this blog and other sites, as well as parts of Stop Walking On Eggshells, I am not as disturbed by her behavior toward me nor am I willing to feel guilty anymore.  Where the break in relationship will hurt, however, is she won't let us see our 5 month old grandson.  My son doesn't believe she has BPD and is willing to do anything to make their marriage work and make her feel supported.  This would seem like a good move in a normal marriage but it's only going to make it worse for both of them.

[P.F.Change]

Some members have found that their relatives with Narcissistic PD do not respond well to validation techniques--they may interpret it as condescending or presumptuous rather than empathetic. You may find this workshop helpful: Dealing with narcissists by reinforcing the positive

I agree that S.E.T. is a tremendously helpful tool in day-to-day life, so it is definitely worth practicing even if you find it is not helpful in communicating with your mother. I think Louise777 makes a great point that no matter what technique you are using, it is not going to change the other person or control the outcome. It is important to keep that in mind. You may not be able to get your mother to hear you--that will be because of her disorder, not because you aren't communicating "right."

As far as Medium Chill, it can be a good thing to have boundaries about how much of your life you are willing to share and how much emotion you feel safe investing in a relationship; however it is important to keep in mind that Medium Chill can easily turn into passive-aggression, which is not healthy, either. I would definitely recommend looking at the Wise Mind information that livednlearned shared with you first. It aims for awareness and centeredness as well, while avoiding the potential pitfalls of other techniques.

Wishing you peace,

PF