Selective Conscience / "You deserved it"

[AwakenedOne]

?

An example:

My uBPDstbxw attacked me in my sleep and I was hurt - She tells me then and also later that I deserved it. Next days, when I am nursing injuries due to this attack - I see she is very clearly irritated (not embarrassed, guilty or ashamed) of seeing that I am in pain and making an ache and pain noise grunt due to the injury. This makes her mad and she low key intimates in other words "Your pathetic" to me. It's very clear.

I read pwBPD have emotions of a 5 yr old but this doesn't explain no conscience. Or a selective conscience?

If a 5yr old girl gets mad because mommy wont give her another cookie and then the little girl decides to hit mommy, it is still more than likely that the girl will tell mommy "I am so sorry mommy" and she will cry that she hurt mommy a few minutes later after she sees her moms tears also or sees that her mom was bleeding.

I understand pwBPD have a lessened degree of empathy. But she doesn't understand the cruel things she did to me? I wouldn't expect her to relate to or understand a lot of my feeling due to this, but she doesn't understand what she herself did? I find that hard to believe. She loves animals, if she hit a dog I think she would feel she is the worst person on the earth and she would then kiss the dog every chance she got to make up for it and buy it the best dog food and dog toys. Why then no conscience with me? How does she justify in her brain any human being deserves to be physically hurt? Doesn't a 5yr old even know that it was BAD to hit mommy due to the fact it hurt mommy and mommy cried? BTW she is a high functioning career woman.

She basically threw me not only in the garbage, she placed the garbage can on the cold streets where I was left to survive with nothing. I understand again the lack of empathy. But she has no idea of these horrible acts she committed? It just comes down to the words "I deserve it"?

I will be very grateful to anyone who can answer this.

[fromheeltoheal]

Rough man, and so hurtful.  I'm sorry you went through that.

My ex was an expert at projection, basically blaming me for everything, never taking responsibility, which seemed malicious and cold until I learned and dug a little.  There were a few times I would blame her for something that was undeniable, absolutely committed to forcing her to take responsibility, for once, and she melted into a puddle of shame that lasted a long time.  I was more enlightened than happy I'd 'won', because it showed me how shame-based her disorder is, how ashamed of herself she really felt, and how painful it was to feel that, so she would do absolutely anything to avoid that feeling.  And remember, it's a mental illness, so reality goes out the window as a picture was painted in her head of me being the recipient and owner of all of the crap she felt about herself, and her delusion was so complete that her perception that I was complete crap was absolutely real for her.  The projection was so strong that no amount of logic or reason could get through it, and the whole situation created massive emotional distance anyway.  Hopeless.  We got out with out lives, something to be thankful for.  Take care of you!

[arjay]

?

But she has no idea of these horrible acts she committed? It just comes down to the words "I deserve it"?

I will be very grateful to anyone who can answer this.

My experiences are much the same.  At times I would be stunned at how cold and malicious - almost evil she could be, sometimes when I was the most vulnerable too.  Towards the end of the marriage I was in counseling and discussed many of these moments with the "T".

She reminded me of the "I hate you - don't leave me" deal where they simply cannot deal with their emotions and project on the non.  I took it personal way too often and it did tear me down emotionally.  At times I started to wonder if I was truly "that bad of a person".  I suppose that is all part of the FOG.

For those of even strong character, the constant barrage of toxic and irrational behavior can wear us down.  :)id we ever deserve such treatment? Unequivocally no!  What we witnessed is the sickness; the personality disorder.  Yes at times her eyes would grow dark and I could almost see evil.  I don't know how else to describe it.  We are their dumping ground; their receptacle for the toxic waste that they cannot deal with themselves.  

You and I sound like we experienced pretty much the same and had I not had the support of a "T" in the end (a good T), it would have been much harder for me to recover, but hey that is just me.  It wasn't until she was gone and could not blame me for "not doing this right or that right" or "this is why I get angry with you", that I finally started to come around.  The source of the toxicity was gone.  There was no "excuse" that she could point to, that would have me questioning if I caused it myself; if I deserved it.  

She tried the same after leaving, with her phone calls (she called me several times) and it was then I realized how it was truly all her.  She had called crying and said she wanted to talk and was lonely.  I obliged and the conversation went pretty well.  I wished her well and we said our good-byes.  The next day she sent me the most blistering email I had ever received, accusing me of all sorts of things.  It was in that moment that I realized it was truly never me or almost nothing I ever did.  It was her and her emotions that she could not contend with.  As I came to terms with that, I began to heal myself.  That was the last time I spoke to her.

We had "chinks in our armor" that were exploited and over time we became so deeply enmeshed that it was hard to see reality.  Reality is that our partner has a personality disorder and we were simply casualties. Little if anything of what they said in those moments of anger, was really directed at us.  We were simply a proxy for themselves.

Peace

[Turkish]

heel touched upon shame. The difference between shame and guilt is the difference between essence and action. pwBPD suffer from a core sense of shame, which says "I'm a bad person." Guilt is the feeling we did something wrong, and therefore it can be rectified. If I believe at my core I'm a bad person, then no matter how much I try to change, or want to (and I believe most of them do), I can't, because I'm still me. I not only later may hate it that I treat you badly, I hate myself because of it. My pwBPD said so on several occassions. It changed nothing. Those were moments of disordered lucidity. The projection is their inability to face themselves, and they unconciously project their faults upon us. Otherwise, if dwelled upon too long, their shame overwhelms them, ultimately leading to suicidal thoughts (this is one reason why I treat the mother of my children with kid gloves, and LC for me: I know how she feels about herself. The kids need their mother. I don't want to trigger those dark thoughts, because I've seen the worst).

So, as arjay said, you become a proxy for her shame and self hatred. Its a dissociation from reality, as all rages are. You also become a proxy for the One with whom they associate their core abandonment wound. How horrible it must be to hate or have such negative thoughts about a parent? What little girl wants to hate her Daddy? My uBPDx, for example, wants so desperately to connect with her father, but she desires something from him of which he is not capable: love. So she took that anger out on me, and did the two things she always said she feared I (Daddy) would do: cheated (abandonment stage 1), and left (stage 2)...

Moral thoughts and acts are higher order thinking, and I finally concluded that her morality was shallow, and fickle. Her actions couldn't be understood from a place of higher order, they could only be understood from instinct: the uncontrollable drive to survive.

[Split black]

Rough man, and so hurtful.  I'm sorry you went through that.

My ex was an expert at projection, basically blaming me for everything, never taking responsibility, which seemed malicious and cold until I learned and dug a little.  There were a few times I would blame her for something that was undeniable, absolutely committed to forcing her to take responsibility, for once, and she melted into a puddle of shame that lasted a long time.  I was more enlightened than happy I'd 'won', because it showed me how shame-based her disorder is, how ashamed of herself she really felt, and how painful it was to feel that, so she would do absolutely anything to avoid that feeling.  And remember, it's a mental illness, so reality goes out the window as a picture was painted in her head of me being the recipient and owner of all of the crap she felt about herself, and her delusion was so complete that her perception that I was complete crap was absolutely real for her.  The projection was so strong that no amount of logic or reason could get through it, and the whole situation created massive emotional distance anyway.  Hopeless.  We got out with out lives, something to be thankful for.  Take care of you!

This is so well said... . this is EXACTLY what mine did and is doing to me. Im blacker then night... there is no talking to her that will change her view. No logic. Plus shes back with her ex. One she hated and told horror stories about. She now says he never gave up on me. I always loved him. And he knows of at least a dozen guys shes cheated on him with... .    Why I thought I was going to be different is just plaid stupid ego.

[AwakenedOne]

Thx for your much appreciated comments - fromheeltoheal, Arjay, Turkish & SplitBlack.


Is Projection always unconsciously done by pwBPD/NPD or do you you think sometimes it is intentionally done?

How about Gaslighting?

[Red Sky]

AO, your situation sounds truly terrifying, I have never experienced anything like it and I hope I never do! My exgf was the constantly guilt-ridden type, but the more I look at it I realize that her assuming guilt for everything just made everything revolve around her more than ever.

As for projection or gaslighting... . I honestly don't think my NPDexbf realized that he did either, ever. It was why it was so very hard to break up with him, because I honestly don't think he ever realized that anything he did was unacceptable, so he came across as stunningly callous (forgive me - I often wondered if he was mildly autistic because if his complete inability to pick up on social cues. Or he ignored them all.) He could spin literally ANYTHING in the world to make it suit him, anything, and quite often gaslit me in this way, but I don't think he knew that everyone else in the world wasn't doing the same thing... .

[Blimblam]

I think at a certain point mine just saw I deserved being treated like S*** because she could get away with it.  It was like she saw me vulnerable and was punishing me for it.  Then trying to talk about it just made her more resentful.  

I guess I should of just walked away.  Revenge through cheating is what got me I just could sense it. none of the projecting or anything at first got to me.  I would still "win" the argurements just pointing out she was projecting and I wasn't her dad.

I countered "I don't want you to need me."  Then the secretiveness on the phone and the smirk.  The lies and coming home late.  She couldn't hurt me with her other behaviors so she found a way she could.

[Ihope2]

Maybe some persons with BPD have Antisocial Personality Disorder traits, too?

The risk factors for developing both PD's are quite similar, childhood abuse, sexual abuse, neglect, invalidation, dysfunctional families of origin, deprivation, lack of attachment to a primary caregive, or extremely inconsistent attachment patterns.  So perhaps some individuals develop more than one personality disorder?

[BorisAcusio]

Maybe some persons with BPD have Antisocial Personality Disorder traits, too?

The risk factors for developing both PD's are quite similar, childhood abuse, sexual abuse, neglect, invalidation, dysfunctional families of origin, deprivation, lack of attachment to a primary caregive, or extremely inconsistent attachment patterns.  So perhaps some individuals develop more than one personality disorder?

We have several threads discussing how BPD and ApD are similar for the uncanny observer. They exist on a spectrum, there is much overlapping but I personally do not beleive that the two PDs comorbid, as they stuck on a different level of emotional development.  What AO and others described is completely fits the BPD definition.

[fromheeltoheal]

Is Projection always unconsciously done by pwBPD/NPD or do you you think sometimes it is intentionally done?

My experience is it was feeling-driven.  She had feelings she couldn't tolerate and had no way to soothe herself, but discovered that blaming someone else for them, assigning the cause of them to someone else, felt better.  And even a dog can learn tricks, so hey, if it worked before, let's try it again.  That part was more about the reaction from me: I have an anxious attachment style and will set about 'fixing things' if I think the relationship is in trouble and I'm triggered, so if she noticed some of the things she blamed me for sent me scrambling, she'd try it again.  I'm embarrassed to admit I put up with more of that than I should have, but I learned, and that exposed the core issue: she really didn't know why she did what she did, and was so overcommitted to protecting the real her from me, since she was convinced if I saw it I'd get the same opinion of her she had of herself and leave, abandonment being the worst pain a borderline can feel.  So yes, some of the projecting behaviors were intentional because she'd noticed they worked to manipulate me, but the underlying cause of the need to project was a complete mystery to her, and she sure as hell wasn't going to open up to me enough to allow me to work through any of that with her. 

I don't think he knew that everyone else in the world wasn't doing the same thing... .

That is a very good observation RedSky.  My ex lived in a combo of stuck in her own sht coupled with a stunted awareness of the world and other people's reality, and so yes, I'd agree she thought everyone behaved the same way she did.  She once told me "people are ugly", early in the relationship and way before I knew anything about BPD, but it was clear even then that she was talking about herself, with an unawareness that other people didn't behave the way she did.  Now I know what she means by ugly.

[Split black]

Is Projection always unconsciously done by pwBPD/NPD or do you you think sometimes it is intentionally done?

 My ex lived in a combo of stuck in her own sht coupled with a stunted awareness of the world and other people's reality, and so yes, I'd agree she thought everyone behaved the same way she did.  She once told me "people are ugly", early in the relationship and way before I knew anything about BPD, but it was clear even then that she was talking about herself, with an unawareness that other people didn't behave the way she did.  Now I know what she means by ugly.

This is just so poignantly and tragically TRUE. Even armed with knowledge, intellectually knowing why she is doing what she does... . what difference does it make anymore? The damage is done, and done and done again. Their is NO going back once you are split black and cast out. Well, not true... you can be recycled and you might prey for that... . because you are being preyed upon... . but their is no possibility of a normal loving relationship based on trust, support and respect. None. Ever... IMHO. 

At the end of the day shes flitters from one bone to the next... . lingering and showing the world on FB how happy she is... . until she isnt, while contacting and sneaking multiple ex fu*ks into the apt I got for her ... . And why... . because she CAN... . until her stunning good looks fade with age, but thats a long long time from now... . and Why... . so she can have fleeting moments where her dopamine and serotonin levels are normal. That lasts until she hops out of bed. This is how they maintain distance, and keep you out, while wanting you to never leave... . until they do.

[free-n-clear]

   Hi, AwakendOne.

   My uBPDxgf always got the sh1ts if I went to sleep before her, but thankfully she saved the violence for when we were both awake. It didn't seem to matter to her that I'd been working for anything up to 14 hours (I'm a truck driver); if I started to doze off and she was still awake beside me, to her that was proof that I was insensitive to her / cheating on her / going to leave her and she'd wake me up to tell me so. By the end of the r/s I was a caffeine freak, trying to stay awake 'til she'd fallen asleep.

... . she low key intimates in other words "You're pathetic" to me. It's very clear.

   I picked up on this, too, and I came to realize that being forgiving of her behaviours - which I'd hoped would counteract her fear of abandonment - came to be seen by her as a weakness to be taken advantage of. And boy, did she take advantage of it.

   As others have said above, though, it is the Disorder that shapes their thinking and actions, and the Disorder has a cause that can't be 'fixed', at least without a time-machine.