If your SO didn't trust you, would you help them trust again?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I'm still hung up on this question.

Personally i think if you can help your partner trust again, you will naturally do it, right?

Backstory: In september last year my ex tried to recycle. When i didn't give in, after countless messages and me saying no repeatedly, she said she was pregnant. This of course got my attention and she got me back. She said she will abort it illegally in germany (neighbour country). After one week of fighting, i got her to cancel that plan and come with me to a real doctor in switzerland. Once there and tested, no pregnancy.

She said she was bleeding almost every day and had pain, asked the doctor if it's possible she had a misscariage, to which she said it's possible, but everything looks normal and she will get her period in a few days.

After this i wanted to see proof from her. Said i want to see a paper from this doctor in germany where she tested positive... .

Now here comes my issue/question mark... .

Her reaction to this was horrible. She said it hurts her extremely that i don't just believe her. If i would not believe her, she doesn't want to know me anymore, etc. As a result, i never saw the paper... .She instead made me apologize i doubted her... .

My question: I understand it hurts when your partner doesn't trust you, but... .

If you were in her shoes, if the story was true and you were pregnant and could proove it with a paper, would you do it? Even if it hurts your partner doesn't trust you, wouldn't you still show him the paper so he can see the truth black on white? Even if you hated your partner for not trusting you, wouldn't you still want to show him the paper, simply to show him what's true?

Personally, the only reason for me not to show such paper, would be if i knew i made up the story.

So is it wrong of me to think she lied to me? Am i such a horrible person to call her a liar and not blindly trust her if the whole thing is very suspicious?

If your partner didn't trust you, would you be offended and call them out, or would you help them with facts/proof (the paper), if you could?

Does it sound to you like she doesn't want to show me proof because it truly offended her beyond what is possible, or because there is no paper and the pregnancy was a lie?

My gut says a normal person would want to show proof to their partner. My gut says she doesn't want to do it because she can't. My gut says it was a lie used to recycle me.

Interested to hear your thoughts... .

[jibber]

I'm still hung up on this question.

Personally i think if you can help your partner trust again, you will naturally do it, right?

Backstory: In september last year my ex tried to recycle. When i didn't give in, after countless messages and me saying no repeatedly, she said she was pregnant. This of course got my attention and she got me back. She said she will abort it illegally in germany (neighbour country). After one week of fighting, i got her to cancel that plan and come with me to a real doctor in switzerland. Once there and tested, no pregnancy.

She said she was bleeding almost every day and had pain, asked the doctor if it's possible she had a misscariage, to which she said it's possible, but everything looks normal and she will get her period in a few days.

After this i wanted to see proof from her. Said i want to see a paper from this doctor in germany where she tested positive... .

Now here comes my issue/question mark... .

Her reaction to this was horrible. She said it hurts her extremely that i don't just believe her. If i would not believe her, she doesn't want to know me anymore, etc. As a result, i never saw the paper... .She instead made me apologize i doubted her... .

My question: I understand it hurts when your partner doesn't trust you, but... .

If you were in her shoes, if the story was true and you were pregnant and could proove it with a paper, would you do it? Even if it hurts your partner doesn't trust you, wouldn't you still show him the paper so he can see the truth black on white? Even if you hated your partner for not trusting you, wouldn't you still want to show him the paper, simply to show him what's true?

Personally, the only reason for me not to show such paper, would be if i knew i made up the story.

So is it wrong of me to think she lied to me? Am i such a horrible person to call her a liar and not blindly trust her if the whole thing is very suspicious?

If your partner didn't trust you, would you be offended and call them out, or would you help them with facts/proof (the paper), if you could?

Does it sound to you like she doesn't want to show me proof because it truly offended her beyond what is possible, or because there is no paper and the pregnancy was a lie?

My gut says a normal person would want to show proof to their partner. My gut says she doesn't want to do it because she can't. My gut says it was a lie used to recycle me.

Interested to hear your thoughts... .

[crookedeuphoria]

I think if it had been true, she would have shown you proof. Not to reassure you but to throw it in your face and make you feel horrible for not believing her.

That being said. Does it really matter? Why are you tormenting yourself over this?

[going places]

In a 'normal - healthy - loving' relationship no one would have to ask anyone for proof of anything.

However, this relationship is not, and she knows it.

This is a manipulation (the turn it around game) tool to make YOU look / feel bad about "not trusting" when she is not deserving of the trust.

Trust is earned.

I hate this game (turn it around).

It's manipulation to the inth degree... ... .and it's horrible.

[going places]

double.

[patientandclear]

I'd say it's pretty evident that she lied about the pregnancy to get you to respond when you wouldn't otherwise.

I'm guessing she might admit this IF you were able to offer her forgiveness in advance, and understanding that she felt desperate to be in contact with you and therefore made this up.

But the question is how you feel about being in a relationship with someone who would do that however desperate she felt.

If you can see going forward if this was a lie and she acknowledges that -- then the way to find out is to extend her an unconditional amnesty.

If you can't (and I'm not saying you can), I'd drop this and bring the r/ship to an end.  You've asked her many times and she is not producing it.  Odds are overwhelming she made this up.  She has heard you -- you aren't changing the situation by reiterating it. 

[antjs]

jibber, when you begin to doubt and ask for proofs, this is when you know that your relationship was about to be over. My ex went to see her ex in a hotel !!! i suspected infidelity but i could not prove it and that was it for me. i said to myself if i can't trust her or i just only doubt her then my intuition is trying to tell me something. we broke up two weeks later.

if i were her i would throw the paper in your face and be angry and cold to you for some time but still would accept your apology afterwards. but the problem here is that this paper does not exist.

btw my ex used the pregnancy card with me too but i am a doctor and aware of her cycle and she could not feel that she is pregnant 10 days after ovulations  its common for BPDs to do because of abandonment issues. they will make anything to keep you if they want you

[jibber]

I think if it had been true, she would have shown you proof. Not to reassure you but to throw it in your face and make you feel horrible for not believing her.

That being said. Does it really matter? Why are you tormenting yourself over this?

For me it matters to a certain degree because:

- If she lied in this, i have ZERO respect left for her and it would make things SO much easier to forget her. Because if somebody is capable of a lie like this, i would emotionally detach in a second from that person.

- If it wasn't a lie i judged her wrong. I have quite a big issue with accusing somebody of something they didn't do.

Basically the whole thing would be like an indicator for the rest of the relationship. If she lied, many other things were possibly a lie too, if not, it would erase doubts in these other things too for me.

It would help me sleep a little better to know if my doubts were justified, because she made me feel extremely guilty for every single one of my "trust issues".

[wake up]

My gut says a normal person would want to show proof to their partner. My gut says she doesn't want to do it because she can't. My gut says it was a lie used to recycle me.

Interested to hear your thoughts... .

Of course a normal person would show you proof (whilst being very hurt) I've been there myself! I found out I was pregnant and also miscarried during one of the break ups, in the months that followed he told many people that I lied about being pregnant just to get him back (the fact I never tried to get him back was completely ignored) I got through it with my husbands support (we had been separated) and I went through a very tough time, even today I had a nightmare about it, 8 months later... . When my ex bf accused me of lying I showed him all the proof I had, the battery had by then died on the digital test so I showed him a conversations with my husband about it! Ex bf never apologized for accusing, never even mentioned it again.

It sounds like you did believe her, because you took her to Switzerland, so don't beat yourself up over it.  You were just shocked at the test results and wanting answers.  She may have been or may not have been but she must have believed she was.  A lot of things can cause daily bleeding, but she might not have known that.  She is probably feeling very embarrassed right now... ...

You haven't acted  that badly, keeping in mind you know her and see through this kind of manipulation.  You wouldn't accuse a normal person of lying about it probably!

[jibber]

jibber, when you begin to doubt and ask for proofs, this is when you know that your relationship was about to be over. My ex went to see her ex in a hotel !!! i suspected infidelity but i could not prove it and that was it for me. i said to myself if i can't trust her or i just only doubt her then my intuition is trying to tell me something. we broke up two weeks later.

if i were her i would throw the paper in your face and be angry and cold to you for some time but still would accept your apology afterwards. but the problem here is that this paper does not exist.

Thanks Anthony,

I've read this somewhere else recently, that if you feel like you have to do detective work, there is probably something fundamentally wrong in the relationship. It's true.

I think i would do the same. I would be angry and hurt she didn't trust me, but at the same time i would want to throw the paper in her face to proove her wrong. I think this is normal, if said paper would exist, which it probably really does not.

She said three times she would send it so i can eat my words... .Three times it was just empty words not followed by action.

I feel it in my guts she lied to me. It's just so hard to swallow... ... How could a person lie in your face in this? I simply can not comprehend this.

I just would like to know the truth... .I've always been like this, it's natural for me to seek the truth, so yes this is tormenting for me... ...

I guess i'll have to accept i will never know and simply trust my gut instinct was right and let it go, free myself from it somehow... .Ufffff!

[jibber]

My gut says a normal person would want to show proof to their partner. My gut says she doesn't want to do it because she can't. My gut says it was a lie used to recycle me.

Interested to hear your thoughts... .

Of course a normal person would show you proof (whilst being very hurt) I've been there myself! I found out I was pregnant and also miscarried during one of the break ups, in the months that followed he told many people that I lied about being pregnant just to get him back (the fact I never tried to get him back was completely ignored) I got through it with my husbands support (we had been separated) and I went through a very tough time, even today I had a nightmare about it, 8 months later... . When my ex bf accused me of lying I showed him all the proof I had, the battery had by then died on the digital test so I showed him a conversations with my husband about it! Ex bf never apologized for accusing, never even mentioned it again.

It sounds like you did believe her, because you took her to Switzerland, so don't beat yourself up over it.  You were just shocked at the test results and wanting answers.  She may have been or may not have been but she must have believed she was.  A lot of things can cause daily bleeding, but she might not have known that.  She is probably feeling very embarrassed right now... ...

You haven't acted  that badly, keeping in mind you know her and see through this kind of manipulation.  You wouldn't accuse a normal person of lying about it probably!

That's the point... .It never occured to me not to believe her. I defended her vehemently in front of my family when they first raised the question if i ever saw a positive test result. I stood next to her without ever questioning the pregnancy, until in the doctors office when she tested negative and the doctor said no sign of pregnancy and everything normal.

That's when i started questioning the whole situation... .

Why would she go to a doctor in germany? She said it's not 100% legal, and they would do it without anaestetics. No doctor in germany will do this, they risk going to jail for many many years. Why did it take almost 2 weeks to convince her to come to a doctor with me? She tried to avoid it like the plague. Even when i finally convinced her she first refused to go with me, she will go with a friend instead (she said because she is ashamed in front of me, but at the doctors office she was not ashamed in the slightest).

Before she wanted to go and have the illegal abortion in germany, she said to me: "Promise me, after it's done, we will never talk a single word about it to anyone!", why would you say this if it wasn't a lie?

I am a really naive person. You could tell me a lie in my face and i would probably believe it first, even if it was obvious. My brother, once i thought myself it could have been a lie, said to me: "I didn't want to say anything, i thought you will sooner or later realize yourself that she probably lied to you.".

[wake up]

Maybe not naive, just trusting and that's not a bad thing.  Don't forget pwBPD are masters at lying! My ex bf changed his stories about cheating on me many times, even after I had believed him and forgiven him. Each new version I believed at the time.  Now I don't know what he did, just that he was a very good liar.

It does sound like she lied, or had realised she was not pregnant after telling you (she might have been at some point).  If she delayed going to the Dr with you that's very suspicious! My thinking is you were very right to ask for proof.  Don't feel bad about it- remember that she caused the whole mess and is now playing the victim card.  I highly doubt that you were cruel and nasty when you suggested to her that she made it all up so don't feel guilty about it- it's not like you want to be with her.  Sure if she wanted the baby and then miscarried it could be cruel... ... But she didn't, don't forget that!

German obstetrics is probably the best in the world- my dream is to go there and specialize in obstetrics so at least that part was a lie from her hehe :P

All you can do is learn from the experience land if you ever encounter it again go and buy a pregnancy test and ask her the next morning to take it - just to be sure the first test was accurate.  Most women would take at least 2 tests to be sure so no one will get offended by it.

[catnap]

Follow your gut instinct.  There was never any paperwork showing she as pregnant.  If she was truly pregnant she would have jumped at the chance to have another doctor confirm it or would have no problem with showing you the proof from the doctor in Germany.

[jibber]

Thank you. I keep thinking the same thing. If this paper would exist, i would have seen it by now. I guess this is as good as it gets regarding knowing the truth and i have to let it go... .Still open to tips on how to help myself with that... .I actually think about this almost every day, and it's indeed tormenting and holding me back.

Life isn't always certain and some things we can never find out maybe, i'll have to learn to accept this!

[seeking balance]

Life isn't always certain and some things we can never find out maybe, i'll have to learn to accept this!

Reminds me of my quote on my signature - Faith does not grow in the house of certainty... ...

Trust - ourselves - we are fragile coming out of these relationships, we may have made mistakes in our judgement, but that does not mean that ultimately the relationship is over and we must forgive our ex's and ourselves so we can let go.

[jibber]

What do you mean by "that does not mean that ultimately the relationship is over"?

I think if i understand you correct, it means i don't have to forgive her and myself everything and know everything in order to let it go?

I just didn't get the relationship part... .Because it's definitely over (not for her, but for me it is 100% over).

I like your quote, there's indeed similarities in that!

Thank you SB.

[seeking balance]

What do you mean by "that does not mean that ultimately the relationship is over"?

I think if i understand you correct, it means i don't have to forgive her and myself everything and know everything in order to let it go?

we may have made mistakes in our judgement, but that does not mean that ultimately the relationship is over and we must forgive our ex's and ourselves so we can let go.

In the full sentence, I relate it back to your original question "did she lie, didn't she" and how we may or may not have made an accurate judgement on the scenario in question.

However, ultimately, the fact remains the relationship is over.

Forgiveness - of her and of yourself - comes with time and as you are able to forgive, the emotional letting go happens.

When we are asking the "what if" questions, we are processing in order to let go/detach.  Looking to the right, there are 5 stages of detachment - fits in at no. 3.

[jibber]

Now i understand it better, and it makes good sense.

I am still deep in the process of forgiving and letting go emotionally i think. It was always really hard for me to forgive, i often wonder how to improve myself in this regard. I hold such grudges and resentment against people that i think did me wrong in a really bad way (there's not many)... .it's not something i am proud of... .but i am very black and white in extreme cases of betrayal and lies (like it would be with this pregnancy if it was a lie). There's things i can't seem to forgive people... .I let it go, but if they would come back 20 years later i would remember exactly and still couldn't forgive it.

I think in extreme cases like this it makes sense to never forget it (if we would know the truth), but maybe it would be good if i could forgive even the extreme cases, i just don't know how to do that... .

I was teached at home to respect honesty. I never saw my mom or my dad tell a lie, not even small ones... .I hold that in high regard and try to to the same in my life (i can't do it always). Maybe i detest lies so much because i detest them in myself when i did or do it... .i don't know. This is a big issue for me, forgiveness. Hmmmm... ...

[seeking balance]

I think in extreme cases like this it makes sense to never forget it (if we would know the truth), but maybe it would be good if i could forgive even the extreme cases, i just don't know how to do that... .

Well, you know the old saying about resentment is "like swallowing poison and expecting the other person to die"

Actually, the book "The Shack" that I quoted had a lot to do with me learning to forgive (not forget or be hurt by again) but forgive so I can heal and let go.

Peace is a value for me in my life - so, I actively looked for ways to work towards that value.   Forgiveness is a process that, IMHO,  directly relates to spiritual work - not religious, but spiritual. 

[wake up]

Thank you. I keep thinking the same thing. If this paper would exist, i would have seen it by now. I guess this is as good as it gets regarding knowing the truth and i have to let it go... .Still open to tips on how to help myself with that... .I actually think about this almost every day, and it's indeed tormenting and holding me back.

Life isn't always certain and some things we can never find out maybe, i'll have to learn to accept this!

My only good tip is one my mother told me after my worst breakup (she's one of these spiritually healing types who filled our house for years with randoms going through emotionally breakdowns).  She told me that in order to heal we must forgive (not forget) the hurt other people have caused us.  She told me 'bathe yourself in love, so that love will shine out of you so much that everyone can feel it.  Embrace loving emotions and that will heal you and allow you to forgive and understand the people that have hurt you. The forgiveness is not for them but for you, because it releases you from your pain and sadness.'

I had to remind myself of it today and I feel much better for it.  Less angry and bitter, it wipes away depression for me, (just need to keep reminding myself). I don't want my ex back in my life but I forgive him.  I won't let him know that though, it's for me only.  NC still in place!!!

Let me know if it helps you at all.

[wake up]

Well, you know the old saying about resentment is "like swallowing poison and expecting the other person to die"

Actually, the book "The Shack" that I quoted had a lot to do with me learning to forgive (not forget or be hurt by again) but forgive so I can heal and let go.

Peace is a value for me in my life - so, I actively looked for ways to work towards that value.   Forgiveness is a process that, IMHO,  directly relates to spiritual work - not religious, but spiritual. 

Oh wow we posted almost the same thing at the same time! Hehe

[seeking balance]

Well, you know the old saying about resentment is "like swallowing poison and expecting the other person to die"

Actually, the book "The Shack" that I quoted had a lot to do with me learning to forgive (not forget or be hurt by again) but forgive so I can heal and let go.

Peace is a value for me in my life - so, I actively looked for ways to work towards that value.   Forgiveness is a process that, IMHO,  directly relates to spiritual work - not religious, but spiritual. 

Oh wow we posted almost the same thing at the same time! Hehe

great minds   

[Soulslider]

Hi there,

Sorry to hear what you are going through. Been there myself many times (countless) and you just keep doubting your gut instinct. Typical BPD crazy making. It was her desperate measure to win you back, regardless of the moral implications of her actions and you as a person, her partner.

It's her survival mechanism and it's very hard not to take it personally, but when you reach the point of "understanding" the disorder you will be able to forgive and gradually put it behind you. It will most likely take a hell of a lot more lying and deceiving from her and a hell of a lot more self doubting, analyzing, confrontations, more lying, confusion etc etc. Unless you end the r/s. Or, establish solid boundaries for the future which will help greatly, if you want to stay by her.

I agree with Seeking Balance's, quote:

"Trust - ourselves - we are fragile coming out of these relationships, we may have made mistakes in our judgement, but that does not mean that ultimately the relationship is over and we must forgive our ex's and ourselves so we can let go"

It's impossible to always know the truth, as there are many half truth statements and lying is second nature. That is my experience with my exdBPDgf. Before I abruptly ended my relationship, she was stable, the relationship was stable, and I could trust her wholly at times, but I must emphasize AT TIMES. If you've been through a lot, I don't think, you'll ever let your guard down again.

After more serious lengthy break ups and make ups, I would get some confessions from her, but many times, they would be half truths and perhaps later she would confess more when being pushed (gently :-)) but after awhile you will learn to trust your gut instinct again, but that will take more slaps in the face.

Wish you all the best, please keep reading and posting, that will help you tremendously!

[jibber]

Thank you. I keep thinking the same thing. If this paper would exist, i would have seen it by now. I guess this is as good as it gets regarding knowing the truth and i have to let it go... .Still open to tips on how to help myself with that... .I actually think about this almost every day, and it's indeed tormenting and holding me back.

Life isn't always certain and some things we can never find out maybe, i'll have to learn to accept this!

My only good tip is one my mother told me after my worst breakup (she's one of these spiritually healing types who filled our house for years with randoms going through emotionally breakdowns).  She told me that in order to heal we must forgive (not forget) the hurt other people have caused us.  She told me 'bathe yourself in love, so that love will shine out of you so much that everyone can feel it.  Embrace loving emotions and that will heal you and allow you to forgive and understand the people that have hurt you. The forgiveness is not for them but for you, because it releases you from your pain and sadness.'

I had to remind myself of it today and I feel much better for it.  Less angry and bitter, it wipes away depression for me, (just need to keep reminding myself). I don't want my ex back in my life but I forgive him.  I won't let him know that though, it's for me only.  NC still in place!!!

Let me know if it helps you at all.

I can actually identify with that, especially the bold part.

I think "forgive" is the wrong word maybe. I can forgive pretty good in some ways... .it's not like i hold anger inside and think about revenge or things like that. In that sense, i forgave her long ago already.

I think what i meant more is, that i can't forget when somebody did me wrong. I will remember it a decade later still. In this sense, i don't "forgive", maybe "forget" would be the better word for it.

So i am quiet about it, unless she comes back. Then it's the first thing i mention when she tells me she's missing me, wants to see me again... .

It's like someone punched me in the face 10 years ago and called me an ass. If that person came back 10 years later saying: "Oh hey, how have you been? I missed you, it's so nice to see you again, shall we go for a drink?". The first thing i will say to that person is: ":)idn't you punch me in the face 10 years ago and called me an ass when we saw each other the last time? No, i don't want a drink with you, i wish you well, but please don't talk to me anymore.". If that makes sense?

And while we are on the subject. Yesterday evening she contacted me again... . 

A text saying "i miss you so much, i hate myself!". I have to work on my boundaries and learn not to reply anymore... .i just feel like the worst person if i ignore her... .maybe i should block her number again so i don't see it when she writes.

Anyway, i ended up telling her to let me alone, and reminded her again that i don't trust her anymore. I reminded her again that she is not willing to show me proof (since according to her that would completely break her heart), that i accept this, but ultimately this means it's over and to please never contact me again.

The amazing bit is: Last contact she ended with all kind of "___ you!"'s and hurtful words. She usually forgets this within a few days and then comes back all nice and in victim mode.

I spent three hours exchanging texts with her yesterday, three hours of fighting with myself not to give in. Told her repeatedly i can't anymore, no, no, no... .Her answers to this are all about her... .countless times she says things like: "I know you don't want to see me, BUT I WANT!".

It almost ended with her cursing at me again, but i actually stood up to her in this regard. I told her that it really hurts me when she contacts me again, and if i say no she starts to call me names and leaves me with a "___ you" until next time she comes back again. I asked her if it's too much to ask to just say goodbye a last time (not in person, i will not open the door anymore), wish each other all the best and leave it at that... .without the rest, just a goodbye. Not "goodbye, it was stupid i open my heart again, never write me anymore!"... .just "goodbye. i wish you well. period!". I asked her if it's soooo hard to do?

After that she ended it with: "Goodbye guapo".

I know it won't be the last i hear from her. As i said... .i am contemplating blocking her again. I don't want to do it, but i see it will never stop if i don't do it.

[jibber]

Alright, i decided to block her number. It's better i don't see when she's trying to write again.

Sent her a last message to inform her about it. Wished her all the best and success in her future and said goodbye.

I just hope she won't show up at my door anymore.

So here i am again, starting once more with NC... .i hope i can stay strong this time.