So confusing, like he's in an alternate reality

[refusetosuccumb]

The kids were with their dad today.  Had a great time.  When I picked them up, my ex asked me if I gave more thought to "what we discussed"  I had no idea what he was talking about.  He says that I told him that we could talk about a possible "us" in the future.  I have consistently maintained that there will never be an "us" because he cheated and I'd never, ever forgive him for it.  I haven't talked to him about anything other than the children in about 2 weeks.  I have been friendlier towards him, as I've been feeling better about my life and don't want to hang onto the hate.  But I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.  If I'm nice, I'm leading him on.  If I'm not, I'm being difficult.  Ugh.

He also makes me question my own recollection of events at times.  Even though I KNOW what he's like, he somehow manages to remember a completely different set of events at times.  And downplay his role while exaggerating mine.  For example, when we were together, he'd disappear all night and show up the next day.  But damn me if I got upset about him doing that... .it would set him off and I would blow my lid at him.  But does he remember that he totally caused it by staying out all night (no call, no text, nothing)?  Nope.  He just reminds me that I had a hand in causing things to escalate.  Which I did and I accept.  But he refused to acknowledge that not coming home was not ok and the only time I truly lost my mind was when he'd disappear.

Thank goodness I keep a decent journal.  Helps remind me that I didn't do anything wrong.  And that he remembers stuff the way he wants to remember it.  Geeze.

[Inside]

Refusetosuccumb (hope I got that right ),

I recently read that deception is so much a part of their (pwBPD) psyche they’ll actually forget major digressions ... .kind of like we might forget a conversation with a neighbor a week ago…  I found that hard to believe, and it’s certainly no excuse, but it was actually a description given by a BPD having accidentally stumbled onto this forum, with some very informative insight…

But still, if they can’t feel, view or understand the depth of betrayal cheating is and represents – they reside in another world…  They are master manipulators, chameleons, and have perfected their deception since discovering at a very early age how different they are from others.  And, they found us - kind and loving human beings willing to give.  So they took…  

And they always come back… for round two, seven or twelve.  I only shared 3.5 years with my uBPDxgf, after a long marriage to another sort of dysfunctional, but I will assume every time you have contact with your BPx he’s doing what they do – turning on the charm to lure you, or anyone in…  Please stay above it.  They are poisonous, and we are apparently quite vulnerable.  Keep reading, you deserve far more

[Tausk]

Hi Sub:

Yes it's confusing.  And unfortunately since your ex may be highly triggered right now, from the fear of abandonment, almost no rational responses can be reliably expected.  And yes, it's not the worst thing it think of our exes as living in an alternative reality, because ... .They Do!

Therefore, I would be ready for most anything.  When highly triggered, my ex would dissociate and really couldn't remember past incidences or be responsible for what she said or did at all.  She would go into panics of rage or fear that were almost catatonic.  And she was simply not able to make executive decisions with empathy or compassion for anyone else.  Just what her Disorder said that she needed to do to survive. But remember, the Disorder does not want happiness.  The Disorder needs to feed on other people.  The Disorder is a living Nighmare.  And the Disorder always wins.  

The only way not to lose is to leave a victim and rebuild unattached to the Disorder.

So, if you expect rational and responsible, you may be highly disappointed or worse.

As a suggestion maybe also read a bit on the Divorcing board to see what behaviors the exes on that board are described as engaging in when triggered with abandonment.  It might give you more insight.  In the meantime, continue to learn about the Disorder, and more importantly, how to disengage from the disorder with the least amount of damage, and learn why the Disorder began a part of your life in the first place.

And look for posts and suggestions from people with recovery that you respect.  We can relate to most what everyone says on here, but I try to remember that random rants and spiteful anger will not help me recover.  I have to find answers and methods consistent with my values and consistent with the needs of me and my family.

In support

T  

[Blimblam]

Yes, he's living Ina different reality. It is so hard to accept. It so hard not to get dragged into the drama.  Wanting the other person to validate our own reality.  When we do tat we give our power away. It is a battle over naritive. Once we begin to see the inconsistencies of their reality and our projection onto them we are triggered. They see our perception of them change and it triggers their defense mechanisms.

Who they are is a collection of fragmented parts and they filter their reality through only one part at a time and these filters or schemas can change in an instant.

If you get to close to the truth they hide from you are the enemy. Your value is only to distract them from their inner world of cold and ugly nothing more nothing less.

[MommaBear]

Refusetosuccumb (hope I got that right ),

I recently read that deception is so much a part of their (pwBPD) psyche they’ll actually forget major digressions ... .kind of like we might forget a conversation with a neighbor a week ago…  I found that hard to believe, and it’s certainly no excuse, but it was actually a description given by a BPD having accidentally stumbled onto this forum, with some very informative insight…

But still, if they can’t feel, view or understand the depth of betrayal cheating is and represents – they reside in another world…  They are master manipulators, chameleons, and have perfected their deception since discovering at a very early age how different they are from others.  And, they found us - kind and loving human beings willing to give.  So they took…  

And they always come back… for round two, seven or twelve.  I only shared 3.5 years with my uBPDxgf, after a long marriage to another sort of dysfunctional, but I will assume every time you have contact with your BPx he’s doing what they do – turning on the charm to lure you, or anyone in…  Please stay above it.  They are poisonous, and we are apparently quite vulnerable.  Keep reading, you deserve far more

Love this quote! Rings so true in my experience!

Yes, the alternate reality in which they're so, SO innocent of all the rotten things they do, and we're just irrational, mean, hot-headed nutjobs who just can't appreciate all the abuse they give us like good, well trained doormats should.

This entire post rings true in my experience as well.

He still lies, about the most ridiculous things. He's always a victim of some kind, nothing is ever his fault. The bank screwed up, the mail came late, his alarm clock broke, there was a ton of traffic on a Sunday night, it was a case of mistaken identity, he never read that email, his bag got stolen, he didn't mean to hit me, he didn't think destroying my things would upset me, no one ever told him that cheating was bad for a marriage, he didn't know, he didn't have any control, he was unaware, he forgot, no one ever reminded him, blah blah blah ... .

Never, EVER does he man up and say, "Yeah, this is entirely my fault, and I take responsibility for that."

Best of all, if it isn't *MY* fault that he does these things, then it's my fault for having a negative reaction toward them. As if I have absolutely no right to get upset. I'm oversensitive, apparently.

And if, at some point, we'd re-hash our relationship, his version of events really, REALLY lets him off the hook and paints me as the bad guy.

I should have been a better sport about the years of abuse, right? Oh, no wait, there WAS no abuse. The affair wasn't really his fault, and all those times he hit me or burned me or kicked me, it was an "accident". Right. I'm just a hypersensitive hormonal female who can't appreciate what a great guy she had. I'm also a lazy B because I only worked 3 jobs, went to school, and cleaned the entire house without him so much as lifting a finger. Those 4-5 hours of sleep I got a night were incredibly selfish. What was I thinking?

Their reality is one in which they are never responsible for their own decisions, and victims are responsible for being victims.

[Ventus2ct]

Their reality is one in which they are never responsible for their own decisions, and victims are responsible for being victims.

This is so true, we are to blame for it all, blame for our hurt, their pain and everything else in-between.

[refusetosuccumb]

You all validate my saneness.  It's also creepy how similar a lot of our ex partners are.

My ex also has drama follow him.  Now that I'm free, the only drama I have in my whole life is the kids fighting like normal siblings do.

Since my ex got his own place, he's been "broken into" twice (coincidentally, it's always right after he gets his disability pay and they only ever steal his cash and his cigarettes, meanwhile his fancy electronics never get touched), has mysteriously lost cash out of his pockets (always the night before he has the kids - I send food with them because they shouldn't suffer because of their dad, that may be enabling of my ex but one area I'm ok with doing for the kids), and has a variety of different other dramas.  I always used to tell him that the friends he keeps are the problem and that my friends never do that sort of stuff to me.

Thank you thank you thank you.  I will just continue to stay strong because I know I'm not doing anything wrong.  I'm continuing to protect myself and the children.

[mitchell16]

this was always a very hard thing for me to deal with and I also found that was why we could never have a productive disagreement and that came to a reasonable solution. It just about drove me off the deep end. I could say one thing and she always heard another. and instead of dealing with the original sitution we would be cartwheeling off i another direction that had nothing to do with the original argument.

once I had some host guest and she didnt like them staying with me. It was some relatives that had fell on hard times and I was helping them out.

Her: someone has been messing with my lotion.

me: I dont think anybody came in here messed with your lotion, it must be a mistake.

her: you dont know what they do when we arent home.

me: i undertsand but its just lotion I really cant see that.

her: so i guess im just a lying piece of Sh*t. you alway believe everyone else and never believe me.

me: Im not saying I dont beleive you, i just think it a honest mistake.

her: Im leaving.

and she left.

so no matter what, she heard what she wanted to hear. How can you fix that or deal with that. same scenario when I caught her telling lies.

me: how come you lied to me about being at work and insted you was out drinking in the bar?

her: I did tell you.

me: yes you did but you made me think you was at work for several hours and you really in the bar drinking for several hours. why lie.

her: Im sick of you accusing me of being a whore and a cheater. I have never cheated on you. I could never sleep around on you unless I had feelings for the person. and you alway are accusing me of screwing someone else.

me: huh?

how can you deal with that. It just about drove me crazy. The only way was just not bring up anything which then you start accepting unacceptale behaviors just to keep the peace.

[refusetosuccumb]

I've just chosen to no longer question him.  Those conversations that you just outlined have happened far too often.

He has always maintained that yes, he chose to do drugs back when but it was because I wasn't giving him what he needed (constant validation, trust he destroyed, intimacy).  He resents me for not being able to forgive him for that time period.  I could have worked through it with a partner that was remorseful and tried to get better.  But it was just a power struggle, him against the world.

[Elpis]

It certainly can be a power struggle, and one we need to do our best to stay out of.

I know with my uBPDh of many years I finally came to see that he needed to protect his fragile view of self, so he would change events and put more weight on the parts other people played. One time when he was severely dysregulated (love that word, it says it all) he was physically threatening to our grown son who is much smaller than my h. My daughter and her h were staying with us at the time and my son-in-law said he was going to call the police if he didn't back off. As you can imagine that brought on another deluge of how he would lose his job and we wouldn't have anywhere to live blah blah blah.

Later (after more drinking) he approached my sil to tell him that "you hurt my feelings." ? My sil hadn't wanted him to hurt my son! Yet he wanted an apology because somehow he was a victim, felt like a victim.

I'm sure it's the disorder and that fragile sense of self that talks him into being a victim, but one way or the other he still shouldn't have been threatening our son! But did he see that? No. He imagined a reason that it was okay.

(no, i don't currently live there.)

I've found that no matter how good a mood i am in i need to remain neutral with my h in order to not give him hope. i believe that he thinks that if he can engage me in his charming way that i WILL succumb!

He's getting help, finally went to counseling when i left, and i do have hope that he can at least live a happy life even if that's on his own. i want his health, but I've stopped feeling responsible for helping him become healthy. And i don't ever want to have to step between my large h and my son again to stop abuse. i have to remind myself of that.

[Inside]

…some good stuff, I just keyed on ‘this.’

Their reality is one in which they are never responsible for their own decisions, and victims are responsible for being victims. 

So, their reality is being trapped within a mental disorder.  But who else gets to know that?  They are allowed to walk the streets freely, get married, reproduce…  Then, as I’ve recently read, when seeking custody in a divorce proceeding, their disorder is not considered relevant, only ‘their actions.’  And as long as those ‘actions’ remain as fake, or ‘charming’ as they once were to us… all’s well within our legal system?

We obviously don’t have to (forever) tolerate those actions aimed at us, and were simply deceived by their initial, if attractive, behavior.  Yet there’s no liability or culpability for having deceived us… 

I suppose we should have vetted them to a higher degree?  Though they played us, mirroring our desires, while moving so fast we were simply swept off our feet…  Now ‘victims,’ it’s our fault? 

I realize we’re fighting a disease, but it behaves like, and has the rights and capabilities of a human being…  Yet they are not responsible because they are diseased … but we are responsible because we did not recognize their disease... ?  They can’t help themselves and their behavior is to be expected … leaving us to rise above their behavior, pick up the pieces and move away carefully... ?

Sorry if I’m confused, and/ or not making sense … and am likely way off topic …but I’m trying hard to get a handle on this – when perhaps there isn’t any.  There’s only the shattered fragments of broken people driven by a disease from which they cannot recover or accept … and we are merely collateral damage … imperfect for having chosen them, now further damaged by association?

No wonder we need a recovery group!  …well, I guess the best that can be said is that we at least have the ability to recover…  …to pick up the pieces related to ourselves and make the most the encounter.  It’s just that what they say/ said was so hurtful, to both ourselves and others.  And their actions not only had consequences for themselves but for us as well.  And, they’ve the ability to reproduce, thus adding another dimension to our shared world.  BPD may be invisible but the consequences are very real, and damaging… 

… now shouldn’t they have come a Warning label

[Elpis]

Ah, Inside, but would we have heeded the Warning Label when we were so in love?

Especially since so many of us who love or have loved someone with BPD tend to be kind and loving and accepting. And for me, even the way I picked my dog-- "not good enough for the AKC? awww you're good enough for me!" (and he's the loveliest dog ever!) I have always been a soft touch for the underdog, the searching person. I want to "help" them.

It boils down to boundaries for us, I think--yes, they have a disorder that drives their actions, but that doesn't make it acceptable to treat us so disrespectfully and sometimes to the point of abuse. I was so in the FOG that it took me a long time to clue in on the lopsidedness of our r/s, and then I started trying to make some boundaries about how i'd allow him to treat me. I didn't announce them beforehand, i'd just DO whatever it was--say that I was going for a walk, and we could talk later if he would be respectful. And things got worse. But I can now accept that i'm the one who let him keep treating me so badly, not that it was ever okay for him to treat me badly. Know what I mean?

At this point in my life I would LOVE warning labels!

[refusetosuccumb]

I know that my own role in the r/s contributed the "line in the sand" constantly being shifted.  I gave too much credence to his poor childhood and inability to make mature decisions.  So he'd do something bad, then apologize, I'd say "ok, hope you learned a lesson here", he'd do it again, rinse, repeat.  If I'd just tried to enforce actual consequences, and not just took the path of least resistence meaning I'd accept his apology and prefer to rug sweep it because I was emotionally exhausted thinking of the fall out of addressing his actual actions, since he always felt he had a reason for doing it.

He still maintains that if I wouldn't have been so snoopy, I wouldn't have found out the cheating messages, and we'd all still be living happily ever after.  So really, it's my fault I got hurt.  Hmmmmmmmmmmm?  It's also my fault he cheated in the first place.  Hmmmmmmmmmm?  I can laugh and see the ridiculousness of it all now but for a while there I was evaluating my own actions, instead of evaluating his kwim?  He even accused me of cheating on him constantly.  I've been faithful since day one, including the few months last year he didn't live at home.  Actually, I still haven't ventured out on a date, even though I've had tons of invites and really could if I wanted to.  I don't do that for my ex, I do that for me because I'm still bent (not broken )

He always maintain "he doesn't know how to be a good dad because he never had one"  But with us being together 16yrs, he never learned anything from me on being a parent?  I never rubbed it in his face, he is actually a good dad when interacting with the kids, but his immature actions are what makes him a terrible partner.  I didn't need a third child.

[Inside]

And for me, even the way I picked my dog-- "not good enough for the AKC? awww you're good enough for me!" (and he's the loveliest dog ever!) I have always been a soft touch for the underdog, the searching person. I want to "help" them.

Darn my Mother!  The oldest, she’d openly describe how she “looks out for the underdog,” and once I learned an underdog wasn’t just a cartoon … so did I, with her grooming and encouragement... .  I know that attitude gave me 29 years with another flavor of dysfunction …along with two wonderful daughters…  Re-reading my own words (above) I omitted the fact we so often ignore the many red flags in one of these r/s.  Do we actually perceive their inabilities, realize we’re willing to accept them …then just keep accepting till we collapse from the weight... ? 

I was attempting to distinguish between being angry with the disorder vs. the person … and wondering if ‘we’ should more rightly be angry with ourselves

It boils down to boundaries for us, I think--yes, they have a disorder that drives their actions, but that doesn't make it acceptable to treat us so disrespectfully and sometimes to the point of abuse.

Agreed, and yes, had ‘I’ established, maintained and enforced boundaries …the r/s would have been very short lived…  My BPgf was soo smooth at ‘sneaking’ in bad behavior, along with the weird/ sick tales of her past.  Like she’d done that before!  …It’s like I knew it was a very slick and polished delivery, but ignored that.  And the more she looked liked a neglected pup, the more I was drawn to her?

I was so in the FOG that it took me a long time to clue in on the lopsidedness of our r/s, and then I started trying to make some boundaries about how i'd allow him to treat me. I didn't announce them beforehand, i'd just DO whatever it was--say that I was going for a walk, and we could talk later if he would be respectful. And things got worse. But I can now accept that i'm the one who let him keep treating me so badly, not that it was ever okay for him to treat me badly. Know what I mean?

Lopsided, yes.  So you kinda erected your boundaries after noticing the need instead of having them to begin with?  That also sounds familiar … I’ve always been willing to give others my full respect until or unless they give me reason to do otherwise, which may leave me too exposed … but guarded people really turn me off so I try not to be that way.  …so I likely staggered into my BPD adventure with “SUCKER” stamped on my forehead … no warning label necessary!

I do understand about eventually enforcing boundaries, and also remember how our r/s deteriorated after I did …guess I’d expected that from the beginning after noticing how on edge she was and easily triggered by about anything.  But the dynamics of our r/s definitely shifted.

At this point in my life I would LOVE warning labels!

…and I’d likely continue to toss them …as they’re only for idiots

[Inside]

If I'd just tried to enforce actual consequences, and not just took the path of least resistance meaning I'd accept his apology and prefer to rug sweep it because I was emotionally exhausted thinking of the fall out of addressing his actual actions, since he always felt he had a reason for doing it.

No matter how kind, sweet or loving my uBPDxgf behaved when we met, I must admit having noticed some cracks…  And the cracks got deeper … turning into bright red flags   Are all our (this gang) base nature’s to be accepting... ?  Are we spotted as willing host’s to our BP mates? 

I remember walking down the street with my BP when she pointed out some guy in his driveway, then commented on his ‘current look.’  I had to ask …and found out she’d gone out with him (along with half the town is seemed), but that “he’d rejected her.”  I’ve since thought – smart guy ~ and what’s wrong with me... ? 

I also swept a lot under the rug, all the while hoping what remained was as sweet as I’d been led to believe.  …but there was always another layer of dirt...

He still maintains that if I wouldn't have been so snoopy, I wouldn't have found out the cheating messages, and we'd all still be living happily ever after.  So really, it's my fault I got hurt.  Hmmmmmmmmmmm?  It's also my fault he cheated in the first place.

It’s hard to believe we were ever connected with such insanity, isn’t it?  I mean to the point we’d either be expected to, or actually doubt ourselves to that degree -- wow.  Well, it must be our fault – cuz it can’t be theirs! 

Have you ever read their descriptions of themselves... ?  I’ve found that both terrifying and tragic.  When I first begin researching BPD I corresponded with people ‘with it.’  In a way, it cut through the speculation we wade through around here - and got right to the core.  And often, they’re quite open.  But after reading about their fears and thought process … not only do I feel so sorry for them I’ll often end up in tears... …it just doesn’t appear anything can help them.  It’s like even attempting a ‘family’ is heroic in their tragically distorted realm.  …and it becomes so obvious how we end up carrying them through life.  We do become their surrogate parents… your “third child.”

It’s like the ones we end up with are the higher functioning BPs … whereas many pwBPD can hardly function at all.  And where ‘ours’ can be considered ‘higher functioning’ (or ‘invisible’), inside they’re dealing with the same level of torture and torment that drives many BP’s to take their lives…

Reading of the way they ... treated their parents, the way they never felt ‘right’ among friends, and the ways they lashed out at themselves… nearly brings me to tears right now...   But some turned our heads, drew us in, desired something they seen within us …if perhaps only compassion.  And, it was likely a match…  We tried, they tried…  And as far as they ‘succeeded’ was an indication as to their ability and desire.  And when they could go no further, they flailed away at us as they had parents, friends, siblings, authority figures and past lovers.  So here we are – perhaps the ones that loved them the most, parents included…  We’re hurt, and they’re incurable …and I’m fighting back tears :'(

Sorry, it all seems so complicated yet effects us in such a real and apparently lasting way.  And how can we stay ‘mad’ at them?  …we’re the most compassionate people on earth!  I don’t think we can, and maybe that’s why we’re here?  We knew they were flawed, but we do flawed!  And, we’re likely the best ‘thing’ that’s ever happened to them… and we know that, thus it’s so damn difficult to turn our backs on them …though they’ve done everything in their power to drive us away.

So, do we need to be like that ‘guy in his driveway?’ … unhooking his boat if I remember right?  I don’t have a boat … just lingering thoughts of a lost, deeply flawed love…  …and I can’t afford a Therapist… so do this instead.  But for some unknown reason, I feel, better than the guy in the driveway who’d once rejected my former BP mate.  …better for having cared?  I will, and am moving on.  It has to remain over - I can’t beat BPD.  And now there’s just me, and ‘all of you.’  So complex, yet in some way, worthwhile.  Perhaps we’ve had a peek at a human condition most would have turned away from.  Maybe we look closer at everything the world has to offer?  And, though it can sometimes hurt like Hell, we are likely fuller, richer people because of it.  I don’t really want a boat … though I do want a kayak… and some company as I explore a slack water stream looking for an ever closer view of nature… 

[Elpis]

I definitely didn't even UNDERSTAND boundaries before I got married! I grew up with a likely BPD/NPD mom so I was already scared to mess with her instability and anger, so I guess when I got married I just brushed some of the  items off, not realizing that's what they were. I really felt like he was the one!

The bad part is, I thought his family was "normal" compared to mine, till I saw his mother's instability and meanness. In retrospect I think she was probably BPD. I always knew something was off (after the entire family's "honeymoon period" but I was already trained by my childhood to figure everything was my fault.

And then I just got so caught up in trying to deal with all that I didn't understand, still figuring if nothing else the problem with our marriage was that I didn't understand. I spent so many years reacting and reacting and reacting to the next thing that I lied to myself and ignored my suspicions that what he was doing to me was abusive... .And I always wanted to help him! he had such a tough time about his childhood, and surely I could make him happier! but no.

Then I finally realized that I just had never even realized that my feelings actually did matter. OH.

I absolutely did the "take the path of least resistance" and let him explain things away. i'm still learning to trust myself! I'm in a biiiig time-out that I've put myself in. He's getting therapy, and I don't know what the future holds but i'm afraid i'll never trust him again. i'm afraid he just wants me to be there to take care of his life and the chores and the meals again.

So absolutely, I erected my boundaries rather late in the game, no "kinda" about it!

It's a horrible disorder, and yes it's sad. i'm still struggling with getting my boundaries and ability to trust me back in place.

My wish list would look a bit different than yours, Inside--I love The Nature, but i'd rather look at it from a hot tub as water source.

refusetosuccumb, I soo entirely understand that emotional exhaustion!

Elpis

[refusetosuccumb]

I love how this board "gets" me.  In the real world, it's sometimes a very lonely place to be dealing with an exBPDh and how other people just can't understand things.

[MommaBear]

I love how this board "gets" me.  In the real world, it's sometimes a very lonely place to be dealing with an exBPDh and how other people just can't understand things.

So true!

I thank God every day for this board and all the wonderful people on it 

[Elpis]

I love how this board "gets" me.  In the real world, it's sometimes a very lonely place to be dealing with an exBPDh and how other people just can't understand things.

So true!

I thank God every day for this board and all the wonderful people on it  

Ditto times twelve!

And look for posts and suggestions from people with recovery that you respect.  We can relate to most what everyone says on here, but I try to remember that random rants and spiteful anger will not help me recover.  I have to find answers and methods consistent with my values and consistent with the needs of me and my family.  

And what Tausk said, excellent advice! I know we can be angry and frustrated with what has happened to us and what's still happening in our lives because of the r/s with our pwBPD, but the best way forward and the most healing way forward is to move with compassion for both ourselves and the person who's dealing with an extremely difficult disorder. Carrying the anger forward only damages us, and who needs that, right? I guess the anger is something we move through and leave behind.

Elpis