Can anyone elaborate on how BPD S/O's "love" is not really love?

[thereishope]

Can anyone elaborate on how BPD S/O's "love" is not really love?  I totally agree that love means compassion, tenderness, and a care not to deliberately abuse another person.  Why, oh why, do we get sucked into believing the opposite is true in our BPD r/s?  I need to really wrap my head/heart around this... . 

[trappedinlove]

That's a huge topic... .

I think that the main confusion is with "love" vs. "need".

They love what fills their immediate needs. But well, love fills a need for all of us.

My uBPDxso once told me when we talked about our past whether it was real or not:

"It was very real for me but it was in the past. I was confused and I had different needs then"

I believe that the feelings are very real for them but they are distorted by a lot of factors.

Some that come into mind are:

1. Object constancy issues - they cannot rely on you being there.  Every time you're not around, physically or mentally, you're simply not there.  They mix love with having an object around to sooth their infant needs.

2. Abandonment anxiety - the more attached they are, the more anxious they become so love triggers fear and fear triggers fight / flight / dissociate

3. Loose sense of self - idealization phase is dominated by mirroring.  In order to be loved they mirror the partner.  That triggers a fear for losing oneself in the r/s. And the rest of the story we all know... .

4. Engulfment - the idealization and mirroring more than often end up with an enmeshed r/s -> triggers feeling of engulfment.  They choke and run.

TIL

[thereishope]

Great insight/info... .Thank you!   

[OutOfEgypt]

This might be helpful, especially knowing that you are a Christian.  Someone sent me this quote recently, and I thought it was SO good.

“Falling in love in a Christian way is to say,'I am excited about your future and I want to be part of getting you there. I'm signing up for the journey with you. Would you sign up for the journey to my true self with me? It's going to be hard but I want to get there.”

This obviously doesn't just apply to "Christians", and though the author is talking about "falling in love," I believe it captures the content of mature love.  Love is primarily other-oriented.  It isn't an infatuation with how the other person makes you feel about yourself.  It is a desire to see the other person reach their fullest potential and join them on their journey to watch them bloom and blossom.  It is to put delight in the happiness and good of the other person.  It is a mutual partnership that has not only a present but a future in mind with it.  I never really had that with my ex, which is not to say that she did/does not love me.  I'm sure she genuinely did and does to some degree, but I believe their love lacks maturity and mutuality.  None of us love perfectly, but their love is more self-interested.  Like it says in the article "How a BPD Love Relationship Evolves" (or something like that), when they say, "I love you" it means "I need you to love me."  

As trappedinlove said, I believe they confuse love with need.  Many of us fall into that to some degree, but BPD's are pathological about it.  My relationship with my ex revolved around how much I was doing for her, how I made her feel, if I was going along with her plans, why I wasn't doing things the way she thought they should be, why I didn't appear (in her mind) to want to know the most remote detail of her soul and wrap completely around her wants and needs so as to predict exactly what she wanted and felt and just snap to it and give it to her at any moment.  The relationship revolved around how I "loved" her, which in her mind meant total allegiance and complete immersion of my identity into hers.  I was expected to know exactly what she wanted without her having to say a single word.  In other words, like a fanciful cheesy romance novel -though for a man, this immaturity and neediness probably manifests differently.

With the current relationship I have with my girlfriend, there is none of that neediness.  We have genuine closeness rather than dependency and this impending weight of expectation and doom.  So, the irony is this... .the result is that I do actually know her that deeply and can anticipate what she feels and wants and thinks, and her for me.  In other words, what my ex demanded and craved so deeply was the very thing she sabotaged with all of her neediness and punishment from her black hole.

[OutOfEgypt]

trappedinlove,

Awesome summary, by the way.  That is dead-on.

[camuse]

One of the worst things from all this is next time someone says "I love you," I probably won't believe them

It won't be a lovely moment, it will be a trigger, and I'll wondering if they too are lying.

[Recooperating]

I agree Camuse... .I have learnt so much about this experience. Next time someone tells me I Love you an hour after we met (love-bombing) I'll run!

In my next relationship, I they dont have to tell me... .Showing me would be a lot better.

I settled for words... .Instead of actions

[drummerboy]

WOW, I could have written this myself, I was thinking about this today. Yes, show me, don't tell me. My exBPDgf told me that she fell in love with me before we even met in the flesh (we FB messaged for 6 days before we met) Pure madness.

I agree Camuse... .I have learnt so much about this experience. Next time someone tells me I Love you an hour after we met (love-bombing) I'll run!

In my next relationship, I they dont have to tell me... .Showing me would be a lot better.

I settled for words... .Instead of actions

[Popcorn71]

One of the worst things from all this is next time someone says "I love you," I probably won't believe them

It won't be a lovely moment, it will be a trigger, and I'll wondering if they too are lying.

Yes, I agree.  I feel like that too.

I had a bad breakup with my first husband.  He used to tell me loved me frequently, but obviously never meant it.  It took a long time for me to trust and believe my xBPDh (2nd husband).  He must have told me he loved me 10 times a day.  When I finally trusted him totally, he s**t on me big time.

I will never believe anyone who claims to love me now.  How they actually treat me will be much more important to me.

[IceQueenSunday]

Are BPDs able to feel love?

[thereishope]

One of the worst things from all this is next time someone says "I love you," I probably won't believe them

It won't be a lovely moment, it will be a trigger, and I'll wondering if they too are lying.

Yes, I agree.  I feel like that too.

I had a bad breakup with my first husband.  He used to tell me loved me frequently, but obviously never meant it.  It took a long time for me to trust and believe my xBPDh (2nd husband).  He must have told me he loved me 10 times a day.  When I finally trusted him totally, he s**t on me big time.

I will never believe anyone who claims to love me now.  How they actually treat me will be much more important to me.

I'm actually trying to wrap my head around actions vs. words.  I'm a very verbally articulate person, so I think words have had WAY TOO MUCH POWER OVER ME up to this point... .When words are beautiful, wonderful and powerful but actions go in for the kill... .it SHOULD be pretty clear what reality is, right? 

[lm911]

I think they can love but for a very short period of time. They can not sustain it. They feel very intense emotions. Of course most of their relationships are because they are needy and afraid to be alone. But again they can get in a relationship in which they feel love, but it's only about time they started hate you.

[hope4tomorrow]

This might be helpful, especially knowing that you are a Christian.  Someone sent me this quote recently, and I thought it was SO good.

“Falling in love in a Christian way is to say,'I am excited about your future and I want to be part of getting you there. I'm signing up for the journey with you. Would you sign up for the journey to my true self with me? It's going to be hard but I want to get there.”

This obviously doesn't just apply to "Christians", and though the author is talking about "falling in love," I believe it captures the content of mature love.  Love is primarily other-oriented.  It isn't an infatuation with how the other person makes you feel about yourself.  It is a desire to see the other person reach their fullest potential and join them on their journey to watch them bloom and blossom.  It is to put delight in the happiness and good of the other person.  It is a mutual partnership that has not only a present but a future in mind with it.  I never really had that with my ex, which is not to say that she did/does not love me.  I'm sure she genuinely did and does to some degree, but I believe their love lacks maturity and mutuality.  None of us love perfectly, but their love is more self-interested.  Like it says in the article "How a BPD Love Relationship Evolves" (or something like that), when they say, "I love you" it means "I need you to love me."  

As trappedinlove said, I believe they confuse love with need.  Many of us fall into that to some degree, but BPD's are pathological about it.  My relationship with my ex revolved around how much I was doing for her, how I made her feel, if I was going along with her plans, why I wasn't doing things the way she thought they should be, why I didn't appear (in her mind) to want to know the most remote detail of her soul and wrap completely around her wants and needs so as to predict exactly what she wanted and felt and just snap to it and give it to her at any moment.  The relationship revolved around how I "loved" her, which in her mind meant total allegiance and complete immersion of my identity into hers.  I was expected to know exactly what she wanted without her having to say a single word.  In other words, like a fanciful cheesy romance novel -though for a man, this immaturity and neediness probably manifests differently.

With the current relationship I have with my girlfriend, there is none of that neediness.  We have genuine closeness rather than dependency and this impending weight of expectation and doom.  So, the irony is this... .the result is that I do actually know her that deeply and can anticipate what she feels and wants and thinks, and her for me.  In other words, what my ex demanded and craved so deeply was the very thing she sabotaged with all of her neediness and punishment from her black hole.

I thought this definition of love was really powerful.  I keep running this idea through my head.  I have recently made the decision to leave and am meeting with a lawyer.  I feel bad leaving when he is actually trying to work on the relationship, however, he still refuses to see a counselor.  As much as I think he really does want to improve, I lack faith that it can actually happen... .that he is actually capable of change on his own.  We've been here before (several times).  I think he does love me to a degree, but I don't think BPD's are really capable of loving someone in the way that is described above.

[Recooperating]

I agree... .They do love, but they love to be loved more... .

They love in a fantasy kind of way... .I dont think my dBPDxf actually loved me for what I was (with all my flaws included), he loved the image, the dream, the future... .He would always talk about how our lives would be later... .When all the drama would have (magically) dissapeared.

And he loved me, because I loved him unconditionally and made my life revolve around him completely.

They dont love like we love... .Its always conditional... .And god forbid you make a mistake or do something for yourself. I really do think BPDs have a ___ty existence.

I also came to the conclusion that its not my responsibility anymore to try and "fix" it.

I want the unconditional love, based on mutual respect, trust and safety.

BPDs could never offer that... .

[BuildingFromScratch]

They are emotionally very young children, so it makes sense that they are self centered, needy and insensitive and split people. It's the sadist/masochist in them that makes it unbearable though.

[drummerboy]

Totally agree with your post Building from scratch. What stands out for me about me ex is:

She had the emotional maturity of a 5 year old

She was the most self absorbed person I have ever met

She was so lacking in empathy

She continually self sabotaged her life.

Her life was a non stop crisis, of her own doing.

I don't think they love either. They fall in love with a fantasy that they have created in their heads and when the fantasy comes crashing down, the problems start.

They are emotionally very young children, so it makes sense that they are self centered, needy and insensitive and split people. It's the sadist/masochist in them that makes it unbearable though.

[OutOfEgypt]

They are emotionally very young children, so it makes sense that they are self centered, needy and insensitive and split people. It's the sadist/masochist in them that makes it unbearable though.

Yes.  I am a father, so I can deal with immature.  However, I never want to live with or be roped into a relationship ever again with a person who can do such terrible things and enjoy watching me suffer the way that my ex did.

[IceQueenSunday]

I think they can love but for a very short period of time. They can not sustain it. They feel very intense emotions. Of course most of their relationships are because they are needy and afraid to be alone. But again they can get in a relationship in which they feel love, but it's only about time they started hate you.

Thank you, this helps me understand a lot x people keep telling me my ex fiancé never loved me in the first place to have done what he has done and that goes against every feeling about that connection when it was 'there'. Utterly undeniable? Or a sweet lie? Oh I don't know  

They are emotionally very young children, so it makes sense that they are self centered, needy and insensitive and split people. It's the sadist/masochist in them that makes it unbearable though.

Yes.  I am a father, so I can deal with immature.  However, I never want to live with or be roped into a relationship ever again with a person who can do such terrible things and enjoy watching me suffer the way that my ex did.

[IceQueenSunday]

Sorry I posted before I was finished typing and I can't find where to edit my post? I was going to say OutOfEgypt that I think your post hits the nail on the head. I don't want to be with someone who could be so unbelievably cruel and nasty.

[rogerroger]

I think it is wrong to say that it is not real love. But it Is accurate in many cases to say that it is not a mature love. Because mature love requires trust, it also requires a certain amount of self-assurance. This is exactly what people with BPD lack inasmuch as they lack a stable sense of self to begin with. As trappedinlove observed, there may be confusion with need. pwBPD feel a strong need to be fulfilled by others since they cannot manage it themselves. They construct images of how they and others are supposed to behave, and when anyone goes "off script" they find it powerfully discomfiting -- they may lash out or rage ("How dare you not conform to the script!". They are often unable to manage the failure of people to live up to the idealizations they have had of them. Mature love, however, requires accepting people and working through their failures with them, rather than condemning them for those failures.

[StayOrLeave15]

I think it is wrong to say that it is not real love. But it Is accurate in many cases to say that it is not a mature love. Because mature love requires trust, it also requires a certain amount of self-assurance. This is exactly what people with BPD lack inasmuch as they lack a stable sense of self to begin with. As trappedinlove observed, there may be confusion with need. pwBPD feel a strong need to be fulfilled by others since they cannot manage it themselves. They construct images of how they and others are supposed to behave, and when anyone goes "off script" they find it powerfully discomfiting -- they may lash out or rage ("How dare you not conform to the script!". They are often unable to manage the failure of people to live up to the idealizations they have had of them. Mature love, however, requires accepting people and working through their failures with them, rather than condemning them for those failures.

These words are soo unbelievably accurate that I am in shock. 

"The script" is such an important part of their existences and the love truly is an immature one.  My BPDxgf said "I love you" within a month of being together.  Later it would frequently be ":)o you love me?" or "You don't love me" because she had to be reassured.  I had to ask myself, "Am I dating a thirty-something woman or a teenage girl?" 

I read somewhere (can't remember if here or another site) that when a pwBPD says "I love you" they are really saying "I need you to love me."  That really stuck with me.

Back to "The Script", there were so many statements that began with "You should" or ones telling me how I felt about something.  I tried so hard to be patient and say things like "Why don't you ask me instead of telling me?" but it was futile.  I was naive in thinking I could change her but I've learned a lot from the experience (and am still learning) as I hope many of you have.  Another thing that blew my mind is that in her world if something happened once it means it would always happen.  For example, we would hang out on Tuesdays and it rained one Tuesday.  She literally told me that it was then going to rain every Tuesday in the future. A logical person could easily understand why this isn't true, but she simply could not.  Truly mind-blowing. 

[OutOfEgypt]

I think the real question is... .does it matter how we define it?  What is the purpose of milling over how they love us?  In the end, it isn't going to be a mutual relationship.  I believe my ex loved me as she knew how.  She may love me until the day she dies, more than anyone she has ever known, but I would never go back to her.  "Love" isn't enough.  It has to be mutual, respecting, close love or it will be paired with varying degrees of suffering for the other person.

[trappedinlove]

"Love" isn't enough.  It has to be mutual, respecting, close love or it will be paired with varying degrees of suffering for the other person.

[Numbers]

I think it is very hard to universally define love and consequently really not easy to say if what we received was love or not. Love means so many different things to different people that I think it really boils down to individual experiences.

However, if you can say that love is whatever 99% of "ordinary" couples experience around us, then no, it was not love.

Unfortunately, but much more important (because it is about us now, right?) for me was to realize that what I was giving back also was not love. My ability to handle tantrums/crises/acting outs was really not love, just an attempt to control another, no matter how well meant. And my ability to walk on eggshells was also not selfless love, just a masochistic insult to my own personality.

[trappedinlove]

I think it is wrong to say that it is not real love. But it Is accurate in many cases to say that it is not a mature love. Because mature love requires trust, it also requires a certain amount of self-assurance. This is exactly what people with BPD lack inasmuch as they lack a stable sense of self to begin with. As trappedinlove observed, there may be confusion with need. pwBPD feel a strong need to be fulfilled by others since they cannot manage it themselves. They construct images of how they and others are supposed to behave, and when anyone goes "off script" they find it powerfully discomfiting -- they may lash out or rage ("How dare you not conform to the script!". They are often unable to manage the failure of people to live up to the idealizations they have had of them. Mature love, however, requires accepting people and working through their failures with them, rather than condemning them for those failures.

These words are soo unbelievably accurate that I am in shock.  

"The script" is such an important part of their existences and the love truly is an immature one.  My BPDxgf said "I love you" within a month of being together.  Later it would frequently be ":)o you love me?" or "You don't love me" because she had to be reassured.  I had to ask myself, "Am I dating a thirty-something woman or a teenage girl?"  

I read somewhere (can't remember if here or another site) that when a pwBPD says "I love you" they are really saying "I need you to love me."  That really stuck with me.

Back to "The Script", there were so many statements that began with "You should" or ones telling me how I felt about something.  I tried so hard to be patient and say things like "Why don't you ask me instead of telling me?" but it was futile.  I was naive in thinking I could change her but I've learned a lot from the experience (and am still learning) as I hope many of you have.  Another thing that blew my mind is that in her world if something happened once it means it would always happen.  For example, we would hang out on Tuesdays and it rained one Tuesday.  She literally told me that it was then going to rain every Tuesday in the future. A logical person could easily understand why this isn't true, but she simply could not.  Truly mind-blowing.  

I strongly agree.  Often I feel that my uBPDxso is building her social life like casting for a movie.

People are staged for their part of the "script" and like you said, should behave according to it.

In one occasion I got a text from her, breaking NC, saying something along these lines:

"I know there is a silent contract between us that says we should not talk, but I want to do <something> so I think we should meet and do this together as it seems like the right thing to do, regardless of our relationship at the moment"

I didn't recall seeing or signing such contract?  

But seriously, the sequence of events after she moved away, got herself a new set of friends, new bf's, etc. she seems like acting in a play and she finds and treats others as if they were actors in this play she's producing, writing the script, directing, and playing the main character... .

'nough about her.  I feel like in my case it was different as she were more stable at the time were close and, again, subjectively, I think and feel it was real for her and went out of the safe boundaries of the "script" - and that caused her to freak out.  That and a few occasions I "broke the code" and acted like a normal person in ways that did not follow her (weird at times) expectations and she overreacted and split, gradually painting me black every crisis.

[thereishope]

I think the real question is... .does it matter how we define it?  What is the purpose of milling over how they love us?  In the end, it isn't going to be a mutual relationship.  I believe my ex loved me as she knew how.  She may love me until the day she dies, more than anyone she has ever known, but I would never go back to her.  "Love" isn't enough.  It has to be mutual, respecting, close love or it will be paired with varying degrees of suffering for the other person.

These statements are profound to me right now, and helpful, I believe.  This is why I am currently "stuck".  I see/feel pretty clearly that regardless of the fine details, this r/s with uBPDh has been EXTREMELY destructive to me... .to the very deepest places.  It has hurt me greatly, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, physically... .But I'm still here thinking about and "trying to figure out" the details, as if understanding it more will help me get unstuck... .

I still believe in our "love" more than the truths about BPD most times (or do I?... .I'm here on the message board every day looking for the tools/strength to leave?) 

I actually do believe uBPDh loves me the way he knows how.  And he puts everything he has and is into loving me in a way that benefits me when he is splitting white.  This keeps me stuck.  I believe that he recognizes how much of me (everything) I have tried to pour into him for these last 4 years, and he recognizes that it is worth a lot.  BUT, when BPD hits, his shallow, demeaning, harsh behavior obviously dislikes me and the way I do things, and is destroying me. 

Why can't I let go of the "good" parts?  I really have loved him with everything in me, and tried to correct the parts of me that have been hurtful to him, etc... .but as you all know, with a BPD S/O, all this does is dump our entire selves into a bottomless pit of oblivion... .or so it seems... .Then the FOG makes my mind race and I wonder if I'm the problem... .if I'm not appreciating the good things enough, and if I'm just being too picky, since we all have faults... .ugh

I'm thinking if I truly want to leave, I'm going to have to try to "shut my feelings off" and simply physically remove myself, as if I were doing it for a friend in a similar predicament... .

[OutOfEgypt]

I'm thinking if I truly want to leave, I'm going to have to try to "shut my feelings off" and simply physically remove myself, as if I were doing it for a friend in a similar predicament... .

In my case, it was the opposite, and I suspect it is in yours, too.  It isn't merely feelings of love that keep us "stuck".  It is our numbness and avoidance of our negative feelings.  And even though this is the Leaving board, becoming "unstuck" doesn't always mean dumping the relationship.  It means being emotionally free to make the best decision to *act* in some way, to put an end to the destructive dance somehow.  As you point out... the FOG is really the issue, combined with our own well-entrenched defense mechanisms to avoid negative feelings.  They work together in a kind of sick partnership, both sides basically saying, "shut up and do what you are told."

Why can't you let go of the good parts?  Because you love him.  Because you are married to him.  Because you have a family with him.  These are very normal reasons that impact us *even without* the the FOG and emotional enmeshment.  It's not like in a movie where we just realize how badly they hurt us and we walk away, pain and guilt-free.   I know you know this.  Just that if you decide to leave, it is going to hurt.

In my situation, I found out she was cheating on me AGAIN.  I saw the whole cycle... .idealization that flipped back into a passive, one-way relationship, followed by her backing out and lying and cheating on me as she comfortably used me.  I mean... .why leave?  I took care of her.  I helped her with her college classes, and she got to spend thousands and thousands of dollars while she was living with me, and paid no rent.

But it was very hard for me to finally confront her and tell her she needed to stop her "friendship" with the other guy.  She then attacked and blamed me for disappointing her (FOG galore).  I was stunned for a day until I found out about the affairs.  Then I knew I was done.  I didn't care how much was my fault -nobody should have to live like this.  But the guilt of the FOG lingered with me for a few weeks.  I had to really work through it with my T.

In a way, I'm thankful that she cheated on me.  If she didn't, I would probably be stuck still.  I would be wiping her #$ and everything in the home would revolve around her.  I would get sick of doing it, lay down an ultimatum or two, which would do absolutely nothing... .been here many times before.

[thereishope]

In a way, I'm thankful that she cheated on me.  If she didn't, I would probably be stuck still.  I would be wiping her #$ and everything in the home would revolve around her.  I would get sick of doing it, lay down an ultimatum or two, which would do absolutely nothing... .been here many times before.

I understand this... .Similarly, during rages, I've almost wished he would punch me... .because then I'd have a solid reason in my mind to leave (warped I know)... .