Am I going crazy?

[figurethis]

I just don't know how to look at our conversations anymore. I feel like there is like two separate versions going on and I can't keep track of it. It feels like my perception is getting warped or something? Take for example the following conversation that is just happening now. I am at work not able to focus because of this may hands are literally shaking... .I know this is a lot to read but I just feel like this is indicative of what is going on recently that I can see to get a hold of. She is 9 months pregnant btw... =/ Am I really handling these situations this poorly I thought I was getting better at it now I just feel lost.

Wife

please dont tell me

that you took the last dishes in the dishwasher

and put them back

they were all dirty

like one ramekin i just felt i knew i used it yesterday and put it in the dishwasher

and i pulled it out of the cupboard it's oily on the outside

and those mugs on the counter that we used for the soup

those were dirty

the baby's containers are back in the cupboards but i put them in the washer to get cleaned

i am 1000000% positive i didnt run the wash on those

Me

oh... sorry 'Wife'... i messed up i thought they were clean im sorry

Wife

... .

sigh

okay now i have to figure out what is actually dirty

that top shelf was pretty full too

ugh

Me

well its the two large plates in the middle where it switches from glass to white

the metal spoon

the baby things

the two mugs like you said

Wife

yeah but which ones

i dont know where you put them

the plates

and that wasnt all

there was a bunch of stuff on the top

why didnt you ask me

Me

the two ramakins i nthe front

you were mad at me and told me to go away i thought they were the left over clean stuff from the the other day

sorry 'Wife'

i would grab the first 3 utensils it wasnt more than that

for utensils

47 mins

Wife

oh you mean the one i happen to be eating out of right now

great

what does that even mean

the first 3 utensils

if you pull something out

and feel that it's oily

why do you think it's clean

to me

the whole "because you were mad" is not a valid reason to not ask me if the dishes in the dishwasher were clean or dirty

Me

the three that were on top in the drawer i think it was really 2 small spoons and 2 forks but to be safe i would take the three top pieces of each type of utensils

Wife

great

i just dont understand why you did this

that is so

i spent yesterday

cleaning out the sink washing things putting dirty things in the dishwasher

and now it's just like

okay im gonna put dirty things away

im eating out of a dirty ramekin

with probably a dirty spoon

Me

i made a mistake 'Wife' i was trying to help. i didn't feel the insides etc because i assumed incorrectly they were clean i am sorry

Wife

and it wasnt my doing

at all

lovely

just

awesome

thank you

now i feel like i have to clean more to make up for one easily

very easily

avoided mistake

which there still is no valid

reason

that's the thing 'Husband'

i'm just supposed to be content with

"oops"

when you just said

the only reason you didnt ask is because I was mad at you

so

let's create this unnecessary problem

and now i feel like i have to just grab everything and wash all of it

because I can't remember what things i took the time to clean out for the dishwasher

and put in the dishwasher

Me

'Wife' i also said that iassumed incorrectly they were clean because i thought they were from the other day and im sorry

Wife

to be washed in the dishwasher

AGAIN

you are missing the point

you did not take the 1 second

it took to ask

now i have to go back and do MORE work

figuring out what is dirty and what isnt

Me

i am sorry 'Wife' i didn't mean for that to happen i was trying to help and leave you less to do

Wife

you just dont get it-- you do something wrong, you dont apologize trying to attach the "well, i did it because blah blah blah" I want to know that you know what you should've done

and you dont sound like that in the least

I have YET to hear you say

yes you're right, I should've asked you

and this could've been avoided

instead I'm getting

"well ummm"

"well I just oops"

and that is just so

scathingly disrespectful

I'm actually getting pretty angry again

You didn't have to do this-- you created a problem that now I have to fix, didn't need to be there

you should be sorry, as in see that you shouldn't have done that, you were wrong to not ask

COMPLETELY 100000000000000000% wrong not to ask

Especially since it took ALMOST NO EFFORT ON YOUR PART

to ASK

a simple question

how hard is that

"'Wife' are these dishes in here clean or dirty?"

VERSUS now I have to go back and wonder what is actually dirty or clean

and put things away

YOU created this unnecessary situation

Me

yes 'Wife' i should have asked, i understand that i made a wrong assumption and im sorry that i created work for you. i think i told you everything that was in there i dont think im missing anything there was not a lot in there thats why i thought it was just left over


Wife

i was almost willing to just bite my tongue and be like "Okay" but your reaction is just so

completely WRONG

no that i have to tell you

that you should be admitting you were wrong

NOT JUST "I'M SORRY"

with that stupid blanket "I'm SORRY"

i never asked "can you please tell me a good excuse for this happening so I can feel better about it happening"

nope, this is no different from last night

I will speak to you when you get home

and sincerely, thank you for being so considerate as to putting away the dirty dishes into the clean ones because you figured you should give me something to do

Me

'Wife' i am saying i was wrong in my assumption and and that i made a mistake and should have asked. i am sorry it gave yuo extra work

Wife

well 'Husband' you wanna act cool and casual

two can play that

You want to respond with blatantly disrespecting me with "Well, said I was sorry"

Well, let me tell you

this environment is not healthy for the baby and myself

Me

'Wife' what do you mean ? i am not acting cool and casual i am saying i was wrong in making an assumption i made a mistake in not asking you

Wife

and you're only causing us undue stress

Me

'Wife' i am not sweeping it under the wrong

rug

Wife

so either we get some type of separate rooms situation

where you just leave me alone while you are here in the house

or at the very least one of us stays in some temporary spot

out of the apartment

until the baby is born

Me

'Wife'

why are you speaking like this

it is hurting me so much

i am not trying to sweep it under the rug and say im sorry and thats it 'Wife'

i am saying

that i am truely sorry that i made a mistake. i should have asked you i made an assumption

and it was wrong

i am sorry it made extra work for you

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[vortex of confusion]

I was with your wife up until you apologized and she kept at it. 

The first thing that I see is that you were JADEing. You are not crazy but you did keep adding fuel to the fire. At some point, you should have stepped away from the conversation.

As the mom of 4, being 9 months pregnant makes a person a little cranky and unreasonable at times. Think about the bending and stooping that goes along with trying to reclean dishes. Bending and stretching and stooping to get dishes out of the cabinet that are dirty is very painful when you have a pregnant belly. And bending over to put them all back in the dishwasher. Ugh, I have memories of that and it wasn't very pleasant.

Would it have made any difference if you would have apologized and offered to find the dirty dishes when you got home from work?

[figurethis]

Thanks Vortex for responding. Ya I see the few points where i slipped and defended myself but from my perspective I feel baited into it. She'll repeatedly say I did this or that for no reason (or just purely to upset her) or that there is no valid reason to do it. So I have tried to just ignore them but then it seems to further her reasoning to demonize me in saying I do things for no reason just to hurt her and now also to hurt our child. So I just don't know whats better there...

Oh I can understand the extra difficulties she faces at this point and I truly help as much as I can. (I am the only one that works but I also do many of the chores - cook dinner, clean, build the nursery, do the dishes most nights etc.). I honestly probably made the mistake because i was tired, it was 1:30 am ( i get up for work at 7) and I am still trying to get chores done after she had something similar to this argument in person. ( I didn't offer to help her shower by washing her legs and feet. I just came home and was trying to get dinner together)

I have tried the I'll try and fix it when I come home approach but that just leads down the, "I don't care I have to deal with it now" route. Its just hard I am trying my hardest and feel a bit thinned out right now. And it hurts me when she becomes so harsh on what to me feel like small accidental mistakes in the bigger picture. But it also hurts because it helps me understand more how much she must feel like others judge her. Because I do feel like we judge others by how we would be judged.

[Cat21]

I'm sorry, figurethis. I could have written that myself. My uBPDh is VERY particular about dishes and inspects almost every dish that goes into and comes out of the dishwasher. Of course, it's not about the dishes at all- it's about control. Nonetheless, it sucks that you were trying to help and made an honest mistake.

I think Vortex is right about not JADEing. It's so hard not to when such ridiculousness is being spewed every which way. You were sympathetic and apologetic, but it probably would have been best to end it there. She can either accept your apology or not. It doesn't matter if you apologize 1 or 10 times; when pwBPD are in that mode, nothing you say matters because it is all about them. So, if you make a mistake in the future, I think you can do what you did (admit to it and apologize, offer to help correct it), and if that doesn't work, leave. Sometimes I'll say something to my H like, "I've apologized for my mistake and you haven't accepted it, so I'm going to take a shower and get some work done." And I leave the room and do just that. He's usually over it 15 minutes later. And if he's not, I try not to let that bother me. TRY being the key word.

[maxsterling]

Been there, done that with this type of conversation, and probably on this same issue.  An emotionally healthy person will be able to accept the apology, accept the reality as it is now (accept that dirty dishes were put away), understand that this dishwasher dirty/clean issue is one that all people who live together face, and move forward (would you do this if the situation were reversed?).  pwBPD tend to dwell on these things until the feeling has passed.  That may be a few hours to a few days or weeks.  My parents got into arguments over this whole dishwasher issue all the time, and I hated witnessing it, and now I hate myself for being with someone who makes the same arguments and "looks the gift horse in the mouth" just as my mom did.   

I feel baited into it.

She has BPD. That's what pwBPD do best - bait, manipulate, and blame    You are ALWAYS going to feel like you were baited into JADE - but think about it, claiming your were "baited" is a [J]ustification in itself!  I know it's difficult, because I have been in the same situation as you, and can almost guarantee I will be in the same situation again.  My suggestion here is to not let the conversation get this far. 

You did something that annoyed her.  Yet in your mind, it was a mistake and you were tired and likely will make the same mistake (or similar) again.  But explaining that to her won't cause her to see your side, or apologize.  So keep that to yourself.  You know your truth.  Apologize if you feel like it (and you did) and if she wants to continue on, tell her that you already apologized, and that you do not want to rehash something that already happened that you can't do anything about.  If she continues, tell her you would love to talk to her about other things and you will do what you can to fix the dishes when you get home, but that you do not want to discuss this issue further at the moment. 

[vortex of confusion]

She has BPD. That's what pwBPD do best - bait, manipulate, and blame    You are ALWAYS going to feel like you were baited into JADE - but think about it, claiming your were "baited" is a [J]ustification in itself!  I know it's difficult, because I have been in the same situation as you, and can almost guarantee I will be in the same situation again.  My suggestion here is to not let the conversation get this far. 

The hardest thing for me to get over is the need to explain myself. I fall into the trap of thinking, "If I could explain myself, then maybe my partner would understand." It doesn't work. I don't get blame but I do get baited and manipulated a lot. Instead of me getting the blame, he takes the blame and says stuff like, "It's all my fault. I am a terrible husband."

I have been reading and rereading the workshop on Communication. I have book marked it in my favorites so I can keep revisiting it. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0

It is so unbelievably difficult to walk away from a conversation but that is what I have been trying to do. It leaves me feeling unheard but that is a better feeling than feeling like I am completely bat crap crazy.

[MissyM]

One of the things we talk about in DBT therapy is not just giving a blanket apology. Validating involves getting to why the person feels so upset.  Like, I can understand why this is so upsetting for you.  You are pregnant and tired.  I really appreciate you going through with this pregnancy for our baby.  I love you so much and really don't want to add to your stress.  Let me take care of that when I get home.  Then end the conversation.   This is the approach that our DBT therapist is working on for both of us.  It seems to be working so far.  There are severals steps in the validation.  Let me look and see where my sheet is and I can post that.

[ydrys017]

One of the things we talk about in DBT therapy is not just giving a blanket apology. Validating involves getting to why the person feels so upset.  Like, I can understand why this is so upsetting for you.  You are pregnant and tired.  I really appreciate you going through with this pregnancy for our baby.  I love you so much and really don't want to add to your stress.  Let me take care of that when I get home.  Then end the conversation.   This is the approach that our DBT therapist is working on for both of us.  It seems to be working so far.  There are severals steps in the validation.  Let me look and see where my sheet is and I can post that.

I find this to be so very difficult 'in the moment'... .  I try, but then find myself stuck when uBPDw interrupts, criticizes, rehashes, blames, argues, etc... .  I used to avoid the conflict/discussion at all cost, then I tried going toe-to-toe (big fail!), now I'm trying less JADE and more SET.  Very hard to do.

[MissyM]

I find this to be so very difficult 'in the moment'... .  I try, but then find myself stuck when uBPDw interrupts, criticizes, rehashes, blames, argues, etc... .  I used to avoid the conflict/discussion at all cost, then I tried going toe-to-toe (big fail!), now I'm trying less JADE and more SET.  Very hard to do.

I totally get that!  I do not do it every time but I am getting better and better at it.  The more that I can understand that my fear reaction gets in the way, the more I can distance myself from that feeling.  My brain doesn't work too well when it gets hijacked by fear.

[MissyM]

O.k.  I found the 6 levels of validation, same info just a little different.  I find that I have to get to at least stage 4 for my dBPDh to find it validating.

Level 1 - Stay awake - pay attention, ask probing questions, lean forward, nod head, don't be judgmental

Level 2 - Accurate reflecting - communicate you heard the person accurately

Level 3 - State the unarticulated - "mind reading" - Create a hypothesis

Level 4 - Validate in terms of personal history or biology

Level 5 - Normalizing - "we all have moments where we feel this way"

Level 6 - Radical Genuineness - watch your tone, don't patronize.  Be real talk to your loved one like you would anyone else.

[rg1976]

Me: I was trying to help. I won't make that mistake again. From now on, I won't bother to even try to help. So, this was a test, and you failed. You were supposed to just fix it and not criticize. So fix it or we're getting divorced and I'm exposing your illness to the public via courts and taking full custody of the kids. (None of this is said via text -- only in person and with no witnesses and after a bug sweep if the room.)

Oh wait...

Yes, dear. You are right. I'll fix it all when I get home.

[figurethis]

Thanks for all the replies! They are all really helpful and I feel for those of you that go through something similar. I think my biggest obstacle is my fear of just walking away and giving her space when she is upset. Its hard to do because of the way it feels like a lose/lose situation. Especially after the one time I did do that was one of the worst blowups we've ever had (getting physical on her part). So there is a bit of fear there.

thanks MissyM I'll make sure to keep those points in mind

[ColdEthyl]

Oh man ok ok... .thank you for posting this. I personally have a hard time deciphering the difference between validating and just enabling them to continue on. It's also difficult sometimes to look at him while he's ranting, I'm annoyed and I don't want him to see that either since that's just another catalyst to stir the rage pot. 

I have noticed the past time he was raging about his mother. She got a puppy and wants to return it after having a week. He was quit agitated about this, and I wasn't sure WHY. But, I listened, and at first he was saying she didn't give it enough time and she wasted a lot of money (both true) but then the key came in. He went with her and the puppy to see his dad at the nursing home. He said his dad said he loves the dog. When he said that... .THAT was the part that bothered him. He felt like his mom was being cruel to take the dog back when his dad liked it. He saw it as her punishing him.

He wanted to talk her into keeping it, but was afraid to bring it up. After I told him he was right to give it a try to change her mind about the dog, he asked me 3-4 more times over the course of the night. "I am right, aren't I?" Me: Yes, baby. Later on: "It's the right thing to do, isn't it?" Me: Yes, baby it is.

It honestly must suck to be them, to be so unsure of yourself, such a simple decision is pure agony for them. He might have asked me 3-4 times, but I bet he questioned himself 1,000 times more in his head.

O.k.  I found the 6 levels of validation, same info just a little different.  I find that I have to get to at least stage 4 for my dBPDh to find it validating.

Level 1 - Stay awake - pay attention, ask probing questions, lean forward, nod head, don't be judgmental

Level 2 - Accurate reflecting - communicate you heard the person accurately

Level 3 - State the unarticulated - "mind reading" - Create a hypothesis

Level 4 - Validate in terms of personal history or biology

Level 5 - Normalizing - "we all have moments where we feel this way"

Level 6 - Radical Genuineness - watch your tone, don't patronize.  Be real talk to your loved one like you would anyone else.

[outside9x]

WOW,

I mean I feel for you Figurethis.  Here is the deal for me.  Dishes or not, pegnant or not.  I guess you trying to use the SET rules in deflating the situation but really you are human too, you will make mistakes.  All the pressure and fixing falls on your shoulders and thats hard.

The way I see it, And I know you are dealing with a (BPD) but we can't be prefect all the time and follow the rules to the letter in SET even if we need and want peace.  I mean sometimes, you have to be busting from the seams just trying to keep the peace with someone who can be totally brutal to your feelings etc.  Yes, I know it's all about them.

I been with a BPD for over two years and loved her very much, and even now miss her since she is not always exploding etc, but after reading this, it reminds me on how any giving day, and normal day, you can do something innocently wrong etc and you take the beating. That will act like its the end of the world.

Now if you continually made the same mistake and apologized I could see her still being steamed , but that's not the case here. 

SO, she rages on then ups the anti pushing you against the wall and now tells you she is punishing you by wanting to be alone.  All for dishes, so I do disgree with the person that says she gets mad overthat stuff like that too being pregnant.  While, that might be a PITA, people get over it especially when the other recognizes the mistake and is sorry for it, and tells the other party that they are.  Which you were.

Bottom line, yes use the techniques to smooth things out but don't be a punching bag or feel you screwed up because somehow you got defensive .  I mean time after time you apologized.  I know, I know, you should have walked away from this one after one or two aplogies.  I been there and done that not knowing who I was dealing with and wished I knew SET, and just thought she was nuts but it is hard but it becomes easier to walk away knowning you did the right thing anyway. 

All I know, it's a hard life walking on eggshells, and not giving in to the emotions and allowing her the emotions to attack.  No one likes to be attacked, especially over trivia stuff.  It's not natural, and hard to do what you do to keep peace.  Hang in there