What is emptiness, lack of self?

[bdpmagnet]

Can someone explain what the term emptiness, lack of self, and "mask" means in the context of BPD?

These terms are batted around often by experts who assume everybody knows what they really mean and how they play out in thought, mood and behavior.  It seems to be a linchpin in understanding BPD.

What is missing?

How would the inner workings of someone's mind differ from someone who is empty?

Do normal people experience this? If so, how does this differ from BPD emptiness, lack of self, and "mask"? 

How does one clinically diagnose this?

What is the cause? 

What is the cure.  How does one fill it up, so to speak?

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[Caredverymuch]

Can someone explain what the term emptiness, lack of self, and "mask" means in the context of BPD?

These terms are batted around often by experts who assume everybody knows what they really mean and how they play out in thought, mood and behavior.  It seems to be a linchpin in understanding BPD.

What is missing?

How would the inner workings of someone's mind differ from someone who is empty?

Do normal people experience this? If so, how does this differ from BPD emptiness, lack of self, and "mask"? 

How does one clinically diagnose this?

What is the cause? 

What is the cure.  How does one fill it up, so to speak?

The cause of the core emptiness pBPD feel is thought to result from the coping mechanisms they employed very early on which suppressed their ability to express or perhaps even consciously recognize their invalidated and unmet emotional needs.  They were unable to develop a sense of self without mirroring or parroting behaviors. That is the mask which covers an empty core and fragile sense of self.

My understanding is that nons can and do feel quite lonely at times while recognizing the cause.  PBPD experience a sense of emptiness chronically without knowing the cause.  I've heard it repeated as the feeling of losing someone very dear to you and feeling core hallow.

I would suggest a skilled clinician can identify BPD/ BPD traits in an individual but the individual with these traits must make the commitment to ongoing treatment and therapy to help modulate.

[Agent_of_Chaos]

I don't know if this will fully answer your question but perhaps it will shed a little insight.  Perhaps even make a little sense of the emotional imbalance pwBPD suffer. Nearing the end of our relationship my partner said to me in anguish "I love you and I should be happy.  I have a great girl, a decent job, and yet I'm still trapped in my own head.  I don't know what my problem is.  I don't know how to get out of my own head."

Heartbreaking right?  2 months later she broke up with me and said that she just couldn't do this anymore.  One week prior to that she was confessing her undying love.  I think she had read her final point of exhaustion. 

[Caredverymuch]

Nearing the end of our relationship my partner said to me in anguish "I love you and I should be happy.  I have a great girl, a decent job, and yet I'm still trapped in my own head.  I don't know what my problem is.  I don't know how to get out of my own head."

Heartbreaking right?  2 months later she broke up with me and said that she just couldn't do this anymore.  One week prior to that she was confessing her undying love.  I think she had read her final point of exhaustion.  

Mine said these words as well. "I have so much in life to be thankful for. I look around at all I have, all I have accomplished, at having you in my life and ask myself "WHY DO I FEEL SO EMPTY ALL THE TIME?"

He also consistently  told me he loved me more than I knew and knew how I much I loved and cared for him but had no idea why, if he knew this, he couldn't embrace it.

He expressed so much love for me until the moment he cut me out of his life completely and never came back. I truly think the disorder could not allow him to accept it trust anything about the genuineness of our r/s.  It was far to emotionally exhausting for him and he returned to what he knew.  An empty facade of existence.

Beyond heartbreaking. Bc what we had was indeed very real.

[Agent_of_Chaos]

[quote author=Agent_of_Chaos link=topic=235906.msg12516987#msg12516987 date=

He expressed so much love for me until the moment he cut me out of his life completely and never came back. I truly think the disorder could not allow him to accept it trust anything about the genuineness of our r/s.  It was far to emotionally exhausting for him and he returned to what he knew.  An empty facade of existence.

Beyond heartbreaking. Bc what we had was indeed very real.

Yes.  I fully understand.  As I look back, or if I try to re-envision our conversations as a fly on the wall, I can see her battling herself.  After a chain of unfortunate events (job less, legal problems, and her car breaking down) I think she just fell into a dark hole.  Rather than facing it head on with me she fled.  From what she's told me this was the way of her past.  I think she carried guilt b/c in essence she couldn't give me what I needed out of the relationship.  I truly gave 150% and by this time she was running on fumes.  Initially I thought that she was just calculated and heartless.  Upon discovering this board I have learned so much more.  In a sense it gives me comfort; yet, on the same note it causes me extreme sadness. 

It is hard to love someone so unconditionally.  I loved her despite her shortcomings and I would love her despite this illness.  At this point, she just won't allow it.

I really find your statement of "him returning to what he knew" so powerful because you are exactly right.  I have fallen into the same category as every situation she has described from her past.  She gave it a good fight... .but in the end... .her illness won.

[takingandsending]

Hi BPDmagnet.

Clinical diagnosis I leave to the clinicians, but I think Lesson 1 has some links to a few different tests.

The cause is often cited as genetic to some degree and often some type of trauma in childhood. I think there is still much to be learned in this area.

As with any mental illness, cure is maybe not the best word. Recovery is possible. Dialectical behavioral therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, EMDR - all of these treatments can have some positive effect toward recovery. I don't think there is one path that works for each person as they all have different and unique manifestations of the illness. From the words of the people who are in recovery that I have read, the feelings of the pwBPD do not go away but they have a better capacity to recognize them and prevent their thoughts from chain reacting to the dysfunctional level.

I have previously shared this link. I found it helpful to me to understand the profound loneliness/emptiness and the push/pull dynamic that often results. It also helped me to be motivated to develop consistent boundaries ... .almost as much a kindness to my wife as much as to preserve my own well being.

www.heretohelp.bc.ca/visions/borderline-personality-disorder-vol7/recurring-themes-BPD-recovery

I hope this helps you get started. Do look through the information on the Lessons to the right, as there is so much information to be found there on the nature of the disease.

[Caredverymuch]

[quote author=Agent_of_Chaos link=topic=235906.msg12516987#msg12516987 date=

He expressed so much love for me until the moment he cut me out of his life completely and never came back. I truly think the disorder could not allow him to accept it trust anything about the genuineness of our r/s.  It was far to emotionally exhausting for him and he returned to what he knew.  An empty facade of existence.

Beyond heartbreaking. Bc what we had was indeed very real.

Yes.  I fully understand.  As I look back, or if I try to re-envision our conversations as a fly on the wall, I can see her battling herself.

Rather than facing it head on with me she fled.  From what she's told me this was the way of her past.

  I think she carried guilt b/c in essence she couldn't give me what I needed out of the relationship.

I truly gave 150% and by this time she was running on fumes.  Initially I thought that she was just calculated and heartless.  Upon discovering this board I have learned so much more.  In a sense it gives me comfort; yet, on the same note it causes me extreme sadness. 

It is hard to love someone so unconditionally.  I loved her despite her shortcomings and I would love her despite this illness.  At this point, she just won't allow it.

I really find your statement of "him returning to what he knew" so powerful because you are exactly right.  I have fallen into the same category as every situation she has described from her past. 

She gave it a good fight... .but in the end... .her illness won.

I could have written these exact words. In the few occasions I went to him after he left asking, just simply, to tell me what had happened.  Even if it would make no sense to me or hurt me.  To just say in words why he just left me.  Just left us. Say anything at all.  I will stay away and I will understand.  Please just tell me what you were/are feeling that caused you to just up and leave and never look back.

He was quiet.  He thought.  Then he said when things started to " spiral out of control' he ran.  Then he looked at me and said " thats so sad, isn't it?"  And I know he meant that.

My genuine, gentle, caring, pure love for that man made him " spiral out of control."

Yes.  It is so sad.

I, too, felt much about his actions toward me were cold and heartless.  Its something I struggle with yet.  He just left me.  I was there for him in every unconditional way and would have supported him through it all.   I loved him despite knowing so much was wrong with his behaviors.  I could always see the good, loving,  soft man under it all. I really could and that was not mirroring. It was so who he wanted to be. So how he wanted to feel.  He always said he felt so "safe" with me.  The love we shared was so what he always wanted.  I know that was real and that was true.

And he left.   

The disorder always wins.   Its heartbreaking. 

[Agent_of_Chaos]

I could have written these exact words. In the few occasions I went to him after he left asking, just simply, to tell me what had happened.  Even if it would make no sense to me or hurt me.  To just say in words why he just left me.  Just left us. Say anything at all.  I will stay away and I will understand.  Please just tell me what you were/are feeling that caused you to just up and leave and never look back.

He was quiet.  He thought.  Then he said when things started to " spiral out of control' he ran.  Then he looked at me and said " thats so sad, isn't it?"  And I know he meant that.

My genuine, gentle, caring, pure love for that man made him " spiral out of control."

Yes.  It is so sad.

I, too, felt much about his actions toward me were cold and heartless.  Its something I struggle with yet.  He just left me.  I was there for him in every unconditional way and would have supported him through it all.   I loved him despite knowing so much was wrong with his behaviors.  I could always see the good, loving,  soft man under it all. I really could and that was not mirroring. It was so who he wanted to be. So how he wanted to feel.  He always said he felt so "safe" with me.  The love we shared was so what he always wanted.  I know that was real and that was true.

And he left.  

The disorder always wins.   Its heartbreaking.  

I understand.  In my relationship there weren't many occasions where I can simply say she was vile.  She didn't rage or call me names.  She didn't "paint me black" (at least to my) face.  When our relationship was nearing its end we weren't "on the rocks".  I knew that she was started to become unglued but I was naïve.  I was uneducated.  I knew something wasn't quite right inside but I couldn't put my finger on it.  Boy do I know now.

She was deceptive.  She did tell white lies. She was impulsive.  I always thought that together we could fix those areas.  I thought that loving her she would realize she didn't need to do any of that. I knew that some of her actions were coping mechanisms, but unnecessary.

Like you, after I fought so hard for us, she just threw in the towel.  Her emotions started bouncing back and forth.  She up and moved out of state on me.  I had no time to prepare, she was just gone.  If she gets help, I still believe in her.  I hope that she can be the person she so strongly desires.

[maxsterling]

I wrote a post about it a few months back where I compared this lack of "sense of self" to my advanced Alzheimer's grandmother who never felt "at home" even though she was sitting in her own house. I'm convinced there is a part of the BPD brain that is not developed, damaged, or was never there.  It's so abstract that us non's cannot really relate.  And I am convinced that this lack of sense of self underlies almost all of the BPD behaviors.  If the pwBPD had a sense of who they are, most of the stuff that bothers them would be a non-issue.  Here are some examples of how I notice it in my r/s:

1 - 95% of the time she orders what I do in a restaurant.  She doesn't know what she likes.

2 - I've noticed that she now uses the same password I made for household wifi for her personal accounts. 

3 - won't do ANYTHING by herself. 

4 - Before i leave for work this morning, I will remind her to take time to do something fun today.  In two years, I have never seen her do that.  Everything she does is either an errand, a way to kill time, or a means of planning for some kind of future.   I don't think she could answer the question, "what do you like to do for fun."

And she has described it to me - she claims she has felt her whole life like she has lived outside her body and not ever known who she is.

[Hawk Ridge]

When mine left me, she wrote a profile on an online dating site.  She is a very private, quiet woman who sleeps, smokes, works, watches tv, spends a great deal of time alone, repeat repeat repeat.    I am outgoing runner, fitness nut who enjoys my many friends and, according to her "overcommunicates" because I am a talker.  She called herself a realist to my optimist.   In her dating profile, she enjoys biking, hiking, positive thinking, and insightful conversation.  When I read this, I cried as I was just beginning to accept/grieve her BPD.  Her profile was ME, the person she "fell out of love with" and left.   ME... .Talk about confusion.  If she wanted to leave me, why was she mirroring me?  I am not pissed at her. I am super pissed at her disease.  It robbed me of the woman I love.  I think we could call this a loss of self. 

[MaybeSo]

Neuroscience is highlighting attachment disorder as the underlying stressor that tips the scale toward BPD, and other mood related issues.  With disorganized, insecure attachment, there is a lack of learning to regulate mood states. (Schore) Learning to regulate your own mood states as a child (via the parent) is the developmental task that first solidifies the sense of self, I am me, I am not YOU.  I have a self.   If this isn't done, there is a 'lack of self' and a lack of ability to regulate mood, aka dysregulation of mood.  If you are unable to regulate your own moods, you will feel a lack of a sense of 'self'.   With the polyvagal theory (Porges) they know the vagus nerve connects the brain to the body and that is the origin of the intense pain we all feel when highly upset (broken hearted etc.).  :)isorganized attachment is like any trauma, the child shuts off from the intense pain they feel as children and are unable to process it,  so they disconnect from the bodily felt experience that is painful (dissociation), which is a disconnection from the body/self... .which if chronic leads to a sense of emptiness and disconnection and again, a lack of self ... .which is a hallmark of BPD and other trauma related disorders. It is being seen more and more as a trauma response to insecure attachment in childhood.  Research by Dr. Allan Schore, Dr. Porges, Dr. Siegel, etc.

[takingandsending]

MaybeSo,

Thanks for that write up. It helps me to understand my S9's struggles right now. I know that he has suffered from pretty unstable attachment to my wife and maybe even me. No trauma, aside from the trauma of unpredictable rage, blame, shame. I imagine that's why this illness cannot be easily diagnosed until adolescence because children are only just forming/realizing this sense of self during their 9 year change.

[waverider]

Their life is like a newspaper full of attention grabbing headlines but with no body of content or substance. With no substance it is impossible to state what their values are.

Their values are camelion

Changing values cannot be built on and evolve. They are constantly wiped and replaced before ever reaching maturity and taking on an independent life force.

To develop values you need consistency, pwBPD are reactive with little consistency.

A sense of self depends on values otherwise you cant define yourself.

[SlyQQ]

Most BPD know they are inherently different they look at normal families and relationships as if looking through a window on a snowy xmas night ( a la scrooge ) they long for the apparent love an warmth but unlike scrooge know in there hearts it is an immpossible dream this leaves them empty they put on a mask hoping against hope this will get them through the door an sometimes fool themselves into thinking they have done so only for it all to inevitable come crashing down due to there own shortcomings and simeltaneously refusing to admit they are at fault yet loathing themselves at the same time knowing it is. people with BPD live in a cold world

[MaybeSo]

The origins of a sense of self, developmentally, starts with secure attachment and affect regulation. This allows the individual to maintain equilibrium while in connection with others. Connection with others, being a secure member of the tribe, is how we slowly develop a set of values... .but that's way up the developmental food chain, so to speak.

[ydrys017]

The origins of a sense of self, developmentally, starts with secure attachment and affect regulation. This allows the individual to maintain equilibrium while in connection with others. Connection with others, being a secure member of the tribe, is how we slowly develop a set of values... .but that's way up the developmental food chain, so to speak.

Gotta tell ya, you lost me on that one!   

[MaybeSo]

The origins of a sense of self, developmentally, starts with secure attachment and affect regulation. This allows the individual to maintain equilibrium while in connection with others. Connection with others, being a secure member of the tribe, is how we slowly develop a set of values... .but that's way up the developmental food chain, so to speak.

Gotta tell ya, you lost me on that one!  

We are all born as children incapable of regulation of our moods and incapable of soothing our undeveloped nervous system without the assistance of a parent through attuned attachment.  We all start off as babies in a "merger state" with the caregiver, we do not know where we end and the caregiver begins.  Through secure attachment with attuned caregivers, we move through developmental phases that help us to differentiate and develop the felt sense of self as separate from the caregiver and others. The milestone for this first stage is the ability to start to regulate our own moods without dependence on the parent to do so…we begin to carry the representation of the internalized soothing  parent inside of us…and begin to do for ourselves.  We begin to develop a sense of SELF through this process as young children. This is a developmental stage that can be interrupted with trauma and misattuned parenting.

From my earlier post above: Neuroscience is highlighting attachment disorder as the underlying stressor that tips the scale toward BPD, and other mood related issues.  With disorganized, insecure attachment, there is a lack of learning to regulate mood states. (Schore) Learning to regulate your own mood states as a child (via the parent) is the developmental task that first solidifies the sense of self, I am me, I am not YOU.  I have a self, my bodily feeling states belong to me, and not YOU.   If this isn't completed, there is a 'lack of self' and a lack of ability to regulate mood, aka dysregulation of mood.  If you are unable to regulate your own moods, you will feel a lack of a sense of 'self'.   With the polyvagal theory (Porges) they know the vagus nerve connects the brain to the body and that is the origin of the intense pain we all feel when highly upset (broken hearted etc.).  :)isorganized attachment is like any trauma, the child shuts off from the intense pain they feel as children and are unable to process it,  so they disconnect from the bodily felt experience that is painful (dissociation), which is a disconnection from the body/self... .which if chronic leads to a sense of emptiness and disconnection and again, a lack of self  (no sense of being embodied)... .which is a hallmark of BPD and other trauma related disorders. It is being seen more and more as a trauma response to insecure attachment in childhood.  Research by Dr. Allan Schore, Dr. Porges, Dr. Siegel, etc.

[waverider]

The origins of a sense of self, developmentally, starts with secure attachment and affect regulation. This allows the individual to maintain equilibrium while in connection with others. Connection with others, being a secure member of the tribe, is how we slowly develop a set of values... .but that's way up the developmental food chain, so to speak.

Gotta tell ya, you lost me on that one!  

We are all born as children incapable of regulation of our moods and incapable of soothing our undeveloped nervous system without the assistance of a parent through attuned attachment.  We all start off as babies in a "merger state" with the caregiver, we do not know where we end and the caregiver begins.  Through secure attachment with attuned caregivers, we move through developmental phases that help us to differentiate and develop the felt sense of self as separate from the caregiver and others. The milestone for this first stage is the ability to start to regulate our own moods without dependence on the parent to do so…we begin to carry the representation of the internalized soothing  parent inside of us…and begin to do for ourselves.  We begin to develop a sense of SELF through this process as young children. This is a developmental stage that can be interrupted with trauma and misattuned parenting.

From my earlier post above: Neuroscience is highlighting attachment disorder as the underlying stressor that tips the scale toward BPD, and other mood related issues.  With disorganized, insecure attachment, there is a lack of learning to regulate mood states. (Schore) Learning to regulate your own mood states as a child (via the parent) is the developmental task that first solidifies the sense of self, I am me, I am not YOU.  I have a self, my bodily feeling states belong to me, and not YOU.   If this isn't completed, there is a 'lack of self' and a lack of ability to regulate mood, aka dysregulation of mood.  If you are unable to regulate your own moods, you will feel a lack of a sense of 'self'.   With the polyvagal theory (Porges) they know the vagus nerve connects the brain to the body and that is the origin of the intense pain we all feel when highly upset (broken hearted etc.).  :)isorganized attachment is like any trauma, the child shuts off from the intense pain they feel as children and are unable to process it,  so they disconnect from the bodily felt experience that is painful (dissociation), which is a disconnection from the body/self... .which if chronic leads to a sense of emptiness and disconnection and again, a lack of self  (no sense of being embodied)... .which is a hallmark of BPD and other trauma related disorders. It is being seen more and more as a trauma response to insecure attachment in childhood.  Research by Dr. Allan Schore, Dr. Porges, Dr. Siegel, etc.

Pretty well describes my partners development. Even now her mother sees her family as an extension and representation of herself rather than stand alone individuals. In other words my partner was never allowed to develop as an individual, any attempt to do so was invalidated and it was, and is, seen as "failing". The result is she developed a sense of either being "nobody" or a "failure". She has spent most of her life living facades or mirroring in order to avoid being seen as the "failure" this leaves her in the "nobody' role.

[bdpmagnet]

Thanks to all!  I appreciate your efforts and your wisdom, and gained valuable insights.