Advice ... Letting go?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I guess thats the biggest question... .

How do I move on?

I know he must be getting attention elsewhere, since he hasn't come back. I feel as if that totally invalidated our relationship. You can't possibly move on that quickly otherwise.

[lovethebeach]

I guess thats the biggest question... .

How do I move on?

I know he must be getting attention elsewhere, since he hasn't come back. I feel as if that totally invalidated our relationship. You can't possibly move on that quickly otherwise.

[OutOfEgypt]

Think of them painting you black as a temper-tantrum.  Eventually, it dies away.  But even if it doesn't and you remain painted black for years, that doesn't mean they are done with you.  Painting you black is just another way, a different-looking-way, of hanging onto you.  After all, what are you doing right now as he throws his little fit, no matter how long it takes?  You are sitting here thinking about him and what he is thinking.  Nuff said.  My T has put it this way... .they are like a barnacle and they want you to be the boat.  They may have many boats they can cling onto, but they want to make sure that you only have ONE barnacle stuck on you... .them!  Their dynamic demands total attention, whether positive attention or negative.  If you are thinking on them all the time, they are getting what they want.

[OutOfEgypt]

They don't "love" in the sense of mutual caring and giving.  They love in the sense of "need".  It is pretty immature.

How do you move on?  You get yourself a good T to work with, you work through those feelings, and you keep stepping one step further out while keeping your goal in sight.  It's about keeping your eye on a goal.  What is your goal?  Can you form a goal for yourself that does not have to do with them in some way?

[Deeno02]

I was abused by her emotionally and mentally. Thats what gives me the strength to go through the Detachment process. I will not accept her BS anymore. She has not reached out, probably because of the new love (what the fu*k ever), and nor have I. I continue my therapy and I continue my progress. Her? She can continue her march through hell, Im all out of fu*ks to give for her, no matter how much i loved her. No one deserves to be treated like us on this site have. Always remember that... .

[lovethebeach]

So, this is just another game to him?

I guess he has no need for me any longer.  I played "mommy" and gave him so much and he just left. I feel so forgotten about. I know with previous ex's he didn't speak to them... .then again, I was his longest relationship of 2 years.

I'm never going to get any closure or answers. Its just hard because I remember this time last year, how close we were. How perfect we were. The future seemed so endless.

I dont know why I even have the desire to contact him at this point... .

Btw, thank you for all your words and support! They help get me through

[OutOfEgypt]

Love/relationships/attachments are *all* this game, to them.  They are based out of need.  That is what is so important to know.  They don't love or think like you and I.  Their entire life and how they relate to others is all about control, fulfilling their perceived "needs", being the focus of attention, and avoiding abandonment.  Period.

They suck the life out of you, demand from you endlessly, and then blame you for things.  If you even dare to have a negative thought about them, or sometimes just because, they will paint you black (hate you, blame you, attack you, trash you to others, act like you are worthless and need punishment).  That may continue forever, even if they replace you.  If you do something to convince them that you care (i.e. that you are back to letting them walk all over you and revolve completely around them without ever complaining about it or the terrible things they do), they might paint you white again for a time.  They might paint you white if they see you pulling away, too, because it triggers their abandonment fears.  But it's all a trap.

My ex would do the same to me... .over and over.  For years I wasn't sure if she was BPD because I saw no "fear of abandonment."  After all, she was always leaving me.  She was always walking away from me.  I didn't understand.  It wasn't until the end of the marriage (the REAL end) where I finally was fed up with carrying everything, doing everything, and being lied to, cheated on, and blamed.  I started to emotionally leave, and when she saw that it was like she was a different person.  She was the sweet, endearing person who seemed to really love me and be interested in me.  And then when she knew she "had me back," she transformed quickly back into the same selfish person.  I saw this happen with one of the guys from her affairs, and I saw it happen with me twice.  It was like Jekyll and Hyde.  

You see... .they are ok with leaving, so long as they are the ones doing the leaving.  Once they realize YOU are moving on, they panic.  I also realized that so much of her abusive behavior over the years was intended on avoiding abandonment.  For example, *every* single time I traveled for work, over the years, she would tell me (once I got there) what a terrible husband I was and how much happier she and the rest of the family was with me gone... .that she didn't even miss me, that I was ungrateful, that I was a whiner... .you name it.  I didn't realize until later that it was all designed to make me feel so terrible that I would not even enjoy myself while being away without her, and I would feel bad enough about myself so as to work even harder at being a good husband (i.e. focus all on pleasing her) when I returned.  It is all designed to control and destroy our autonomy.

And that is probably what attracted them to us to begin with.  They are drawn to people who have a low sense of autonomy, weak personal boundaries, and are maybe naive enough to think that it is their job to rescue people and provide for their happiness.  And they spend years reinforcing that until there is nothing left of you.  And then they replace you and do it again.

Sick.

[lovethebeach]

OutofEgypt,

     I caught him with a secret email account and messaging women on Craigslist behind my back. I admittedly, snooped. But regardless, there is no excuse for his behavior. He begged and begged and begged and promised to work on things... .so I stayed. We then shared another two, wonderful weekends together. Then I caught him with a blank online dating profile (he spent an hour denying it after I backed him into a corner) and then finally, two days later ... .he said he was someplace, he was not. He was actually at an Italian restaurant, with God knows who.  I had his passwords and confronted him... .his response "I'm sorry I lied. But you shouldn't have snooped."

And that was that. The end of the two year relationship and I've been left hurting and wondering how we went from working on things, and him practically having a nervous breakdown with me leaving ... .to him leaving?

I should mention I got him into therapy during the relationship. Afterall, I was the one who enlightened him to BPD/NPD and his mother. People have said I tore his mask off and he wasnt and isnt ready to face it.

[lovethebeach]

Raybo,

    I guess this all feels so sudden to me. I feel so blind sighted. I never expected him to leave... .he always came running right back.

[Raybo48]

Raybo,

    I guess this all feels so sudden to me. I feel so blind sighted. I never expected him to leave... .he always came running right back.

It is sudden, and you need to give yourself time to process all of your feelings.  When a BPD bolts it's usually without warning and there isn't much if any empathy from them over it.  Read OutOfEgypt's post.  It's extremely accurate and worth putting on your mirror to remind yourself of what they are all about. 

[Raybo48]

Love/relationships/attachments are *all* this game, to them.  They are based out of need.  That is what is so important to know.  They don't love or think like you and I.  Their entire life and how they relate to others is all about control, fulfilling their perceived "needs", being the focus of attention, and avoiding abandonment.  Period.

They suck the life out of you, demand from you endlessly, and then blame you for things.  If you even dare to have a negative thought about them, or sometimes just because, they will paint you black (hate you, blame you, attack you, trash you to others, act like you are worthless and need punishment).  That may continue forever, even if they replace you.  If you do something to convince them that you care (i.e. that you are back to letting them walk all over you and revolve completely around them without ever complaining about it or the terrible things they do), they might paint you white again for a time.  They might paint you white if they see you pulling away, too, because it triggers their abandonment fears.  But it's all a trap.

My ex would do the same to me... .over and over.  For years I wasn't sure if she was BPD because I saw no "fear of abandonment."  After all, she was always leaving me.  She was always walking away from me.  I didn't understand.  It wasn't until the end of the marriage (the REAL end) where I finally was fed up with carrying everything, doing everything, and being lied to, cheated on, and blamed.  I started to emotionally leave, and when she saw that it was like she was a different person.  She was the sweet, endearing person who seemed to really love me and be interested in me.  And then when she knew she "had me back," she transformed quickly back into the same selfish person.  I saw this happen with one of the guys from her affairs, and I saw it happen with me twice.  It was like Jekyll and Hyde.  

You see... .they are ok with leaving, so long as they are the ones doing the leaving.  Once they realize YOU are moving on, they panic.  I also realized that so much of her abusive behavior over the years was intended on avoiding abandonment.  For example, *every* single time I traveled for work, over the years, she would tell me (once I got there) what a terrible husband I was and how much happier she and the rest of the family was with me gone... .that she didn't even miss me, that I was ungrateful, that I was a whiner... .you name it.  I didn't realize until later that it was all designed to make me feel so terrible that I would not even enjoy myself while being away without her, and I would feel bad enough about myself so as to work even harder at being a good husband (i.e. focus all on pleasing her) when I returned.  It is all designed to control and destroy our autonomy.

And that is probably what attracted them to us to begin with.  They are drawn to people who have a low sense of autonomy, weak personal boundaries, and are maybe naive enough to think that it is their job to rescue people and provide for their happiness.  And they spend years reinforcing that until there is nothing left of you.  And then they replace you and do it again.

Sick.

Thank you for this post.  It really defines who they are and what I had to deal with.  It's a keeper for me; to remind myself daily if needed.

[OutOfEgypt]

lovethebeach:

What you went through sounds very familiar to me.  I went through something like that over and over again, about every 2 years, for 14 years.  Around 9 years into the marriage, she admitted that she had been punishing me since probably the beginning of our second year of marriage, because she was so hurt form me "neglecting" her endless need for attention.

I also snooped.  And I was also blamed.  When she decided to "come back", she acted as though I was the worst person in the world for "snooping" and that I had to admit that I was in the wrong, too.  She locked her computer down, refused to give me passwords (I didn't deserve to have them because I was a snoop!), and ultimately shut me completely out of her social circles and hated my friends and family -often putting me in positions where I would have to choose between her and my family.

There were a few times when she appeared sorry and promised this or that.  But it was only to keep me stuck.  It was only to keep me from moving on or from making her life uncomfortable.  When she was ready, she did whatever she wanted and lied to cover it up.

After the divorce, she saw that I was moving on, and she again panicked.  She talked to me about starting therapy and trying one more time.  :)on't fall for it.  I did.  After a whirlwind romance with a very promising beginning, she moved back into my house and the demander/controller/liar/cheater came back out.  Soon, she didn't even think she needed professional help any longer, but I would "probably never get better" with my therapy.  Within 9 months she had blown almost $15k, and been "hanging out" with her "friend" (guy from her last affair).  I finally got sick of it and then found out, as I suspected, that she had been fooling around with him.  The shocking thing was in founding out that she had fooled around with our son's 18 year old friend, too.  Not sure exactly what they "did", but does it matter?  Nope.  Seeing that all unfold was thankfully the final nail in the coffin.  I realized with zero remaining doubts that she is pathological -something I had been told for years.

[peiper]

How long did it take you?

It's been 20 days for me, we've spoken 3 times during that period.

Today is Veterans Day ... .and this time last year my BPDex was getting ready to leave for the military.

I miss him terribly today.

Do you miss him or the fantasy you had of who he was.?

[lovethebeach]

Thank you for sharing your story! They are all so similar.

I ignored the    from the beginning. I opened his eyes, early on to BPD and even got him into therapy. We spent many nights researching his mother... .because I thought some understanding and therapy could help him and US.

I believe my ex is BPD/NPD. It was like he wanted to have all the control, but none of the responsibility. Now he is being "rebellious" and acting out. Something was ALWAYS happening and he was ALWAYS needing saving. He never got any support from home... .so everything always fell on me. It was so difficult and caused many issues to always be saving him and trying to micro-manage his life. I truly thought I was helping him.

I took on the "mommy" role, only for him to leave. I guess I could have given him full control... .but when he had it ... .he failed at life. When I met him he just failed out of college (where we met), got fired from his job, and during our relationship he left the military (he claims to be with me) and got hurt yet again at work. He never finishes anything!

I helped him find a job, a car, get back into school ... .everything he said he wanted. He stopped his smoking and excessive drinking with me as I set boundaries early on. Only to be dropped on my head, after catching him LYING.

And now, he's perfectly fine, back to his old ways... .or so it seems... .carrying on with his life as if we never happened.

I loved him through the ugly parts.

[OutOfEgypt]

I know it may seem trite, but from someone who has stuck it out with a person just like you ex for almost 15 years, the sooner you walk away from him for good, the better off you will be and the more of your life you can live and shine for others who will appreciate it and shine back to you.  I wish I had left her years ago.

So many similarities.  My ex also never finished anything she started... .and it was always someone's fault.  She dropped out of school during the final recycle when I told her I was done with her, claiming that it was because I "made her so depressed" and pressured her to leave (keep in mind, it took her almost 5 months to move out).  Right now, she has a new dream of what she wants to do in life, and I would be shocked if she even finished the 6 month course necessary to *begin* a career in that, much less actually get established in that career.

I am with a woman now who is very different.  She doesn't need to be rescued, yet she is understanding and compassionate.  She doesn't "need" attention from me all the time, but she is thankful and appreciative of the time and attention we share.  And I am realizing that love actually exists... .where you *don't* feel like you need to live up to something, to impress them, to be everything they ever wanted.  I can just be me... .good and bad days, ups and downs, happy one minute, unhappy about something another.  In other words, I finally get to be *human*.  It exists.  And it is SO much better than the apparent high and ridiculously painful lows from being with someone who will take you as an emotional captive until they've used everything they can... .and then come back for more.

But trust me... .he is not perfectly fine.  Personality does not change, not really.  Our core ways of coping and relating with others does not change without dedicated, HARD work, and still those tendencies remain.  He is the same person, and he will do it again to the next person.  I wouldn't have believed it unless I saw it with my own eyes, but it is true.

[Raybo48]

Emotional vampires. Period.

[OutOfEgypt]

I also know what is probably going through your head... ."But what if he is different?"  I wondered that about my ex for a long time.  In some ways, she is different.  While there are huge similarities with other people's stories, there are some differences.  Each of them as an individual person.  They were born into this world, like you and I.  They have struggles and victories, like you and I.

But when my ex wanted to come back to me and I agreed, I look back and realize that I did so because I knew that she would never come back to me *in the right way*.  In other words, I agreed to the quick and foolish return because I knew, deep down, that no amount of therapy would keep her from needing to find another guy.  If I ever said, "Ok, go to therapy.  We can remain separated for the next year and a half and then reasses how things are," which would have been smart, I knew it would never fly.  There is no way she could keep her pants on and stop luring in other men and fishing for attention that long.  No flippin way.

In other words, I strangely knew she would always be unhealthy, but I took her back anyway, in spite of my better sense, for that idealistic, "dreams may come true" wish that this might be an exception.  But I already knew it wasn't.

I'm pretty sure you probably know the same about him.  You just may not want to face it.

[Caredverymuch]

Write down all the good things and bad things about the relationship and stay on the good things side of the table because the table is going to tip over from all the bad things.

Now THAT made me laugh right out loud! Good advise pieper!

[lovethebeach]

OutofEgpty:

You're speaking to my soul   Thank you so much for all of your replies... .they really hit home with me.

Maybe I should be happy that he left after two years? I just feel like I had so much invested. He's not malicious, he didn't do any of it hurt me and that's why I struggle to be angry. He's merely trying to fill the void and fill the loneliness.

Our problems started when I graduated college and left the state... .We became long distance (2.5 hours away) or so. Although we saw each other every weekend ... .He created the e-mail account back then, yet I only found it last month. He only used it sporadically (like it matters), but he said it made him feel like a POS but he didn't know how to stop... .that therapy was a process... .BLAH BLAH. I still dont think he told his therapist about all of it and you cant change what you don't acknowledge.

I think it's easier to cut me out then face the reality. I'd be shocked if he finishes college... .especially without me and a solid support system. Looking back, the beginning was ALL ABOUT ME... .then, all about him. I did far more than any girl my age, and than most women to be honest. In the military, I wrote him a letter a day... .sent care packages... .remained faithful while in college. I could go on and on... .

I thought after getting him into therapy and educating him ... .he would be ready to confront his inner demons. Instead, he gave up on me and on us. Now, I know hes hunting for his next fix/validation ... since we're not speaking and that hurts.

A part of me wishes I never found those e-mails, but then again I'd still be living a lie.

The things he said keep replaying in my head ... .I didnt do anything he asked... .he did everything. No. He continued to lie and go behind my back. I couldn't give him full control because he wasn't ready. He's a child and somewhere deep deep deep down, I hope he can appreciate all that I did for him... .like when he gets into his car, or gets back into school... .maybe in a few years, he'll realize what he lost. I was the greatest thing for him but he sabotaged us.

He can't possibly forget me... .no matter how hard he tries. I doubt he'll ever be back (every other time he came back immediately). It seems I triggered him by confronting him about the lies... .and he'd rather run than face it all.

I just wish I could stop hurting and feel better. Stop missing him and stop caring.

How did you do it?

[lovethebeach]

Write down all the good things and bad things about the relationship and stay on the good things side of the table because the table is going to tip over from all the bad things.

Now THAT made me laugh right out loud! Good advise pieper!

Maybe a pro and con list will help? LOL

Maybe him being "fine" is all smoke and mirrors. He's still just as lost and confused as when I met him.

[letmeout]

Good times were only good when he was getting what he wanted

Lie upon lie, deceit upon deceit

His mask fell off and I saw the REAL him

Perfect description!

Once you see the real person behind the mask, it is such a shock that we were able to live in denial of a reality that can not change. Love is blind.

You can move past the trauma and complete no contact is the best way to go.

[rosannadanna]

Do you want to be the emotional caretaker for the next 15 years like OutofEgypt?  Or on the receiving end of infidelity or narcisisitc abuse for the next 15 years?  You could if you really want to.  I could still be in the push/pull and fooling myself into thinking that even though my partner has a "harem", I am the special one that understands him like no one else has or will.

If you stay and have a child with him, this will wear thin.  Your child will be the center of your universe not him and he will act out more probably.

Yes you could be the "special one" who understands him like no one else and right now it seems your thoughts are focused on trying to control the outcome (how can I make him see that I am the "special one" now?)

I predict if you leave him alone, he will contact you again.

Maybe check out the staying board.  There are probably situations there in which people are hanging in there and doing the work necessary to keep these relationships going.  It requires "radical acceptance".  Study this.  It is what you will need to be in a position to maintain a BPD r/s and emotional stablity.  I was getting good at all the staying tools by the third and final re-engagement and my ex is dx'ed, so he could talk the talk and appear motivated to also do the hard work required.  We looked at many of the books I recommend here on the site and processed our r/s endlessly.  But ultimately, the bottom line was that he was a commitment-phobe, plain and simple, PD or not.  I realized he wouldn't likely change based on his past history and I walked.

Do you want this for the long haul?

[lovethebeach]

Thank you everyone! I truly appreciate all your input and responses. Today for some reason, is difficult. I feel like it's getting harder, but easier at the same time?

No. I want out of the emotional pain I'm in... .so sometimes I feel like contacting him. But, as much as I miss him, the little voice inside me will not allow me to go back. I know I deserve better.

You see PD or not, he is a compulsive liar and cheater... .physically/emotionally... .it doesn't matter. Nothing I did, deserved that. Funny thing... .he always told me his ex girlfriends were crazy. One day she even messaged me on FB to say that he cheated on her and to not believe him... .total opposite of what he had told me. I followed the advice of others ... ."The bus stops every corner. If you need to find out for yourself, give him the benefit of the doubt ... and when/if that happens ... .leave." So here we are. Its just hard because his actions and words don't match up... ."Were going to work on things." Okay. "Oops, I lied again and am at an Italian restaurant." I told him there was no reason to be lying at that point in time, but it didn't matter. He kept saying I shouldn't have snooped. Drives me crazy.

I do believe that thus far, I do understand him better than anyone and I suppose you're right... .maybe that's why he left. He couldn't keep lying to me because I kept catching him... .And yes, I keep finding myself fixated on how he's feeling. I know I'm special, but it's like a switch went off in his head and he no longer has any interest in even speaking.

It's like he just abruptly stopped caring, blamed everything on me ... .and walked away. I at least apologized for whatever my part was... .he couldn't even give me that. He said "I apologized the whole relationship. You don't deserve an apology." I couldn't even bring myself to throw everything back in his face. I was just shocked and confused.

It's hard feeling as if he doesn't care... .even if it is over. I got into a car accident, my car is totaled and all he needed to know was that I was alive? How did he just switch off seemingly overnight?

UGH.

[OutOfEgypt]

lovethebeach:

Except for the fact that I would not have one of my children, I wish I left after only two years.  You say you had so much invested... .imagine how that feels after 15 years:  children, schooling, helping her through X, Y, Z, fighting to make it work through one affair, then another, then another, waiting for her to "figure out what she wants," finding more emails and naked pictures, finding out about more lies, trying to sleep night after night as she went out to "hang out" with her "friend" (a guy she cheated on me with), having her neglect all of us and blame it on me, being the butt of all the blame for every times she was having a bad day, yet expected to run into the room in the middle of the night (though I was sleeping in a separate bedroom so that she could "stretch out" to have sex with her after she had masturbated for 4 hours.  And don't forget working full-time, running all the errands, doing the cooking, taking care of the kids and the house almost exclusively.  And then whenever I would try to confront her, I would be mind-screwed until I was so confused I didn't know what was up or down... .or bullied into just being quiet and letting her "figure it out on her own."  Losing friends, alienated from family, etc. etc.  A very painful and lonely LONG number of years.  I lost touch with friends, I neglected things I was very good at (music, art).  You name it.  I totally lost myself.  I remember sitting on the porch swing about four years ago saying to the heavens, "I don't even know who I am, anymore."

This isn't to compare myself to you in any way.  This is to show you what it looks like when you protract your story out another 13 years, so that you can remain motivated to keep moving forward.

When I first met my ex 15 years ago, I never heard someone talk so much.  So charismatic.  So charming, but in a kind of misunderstood, unfortunate victim kind of way... .that makes you go "aww".  And yet, she had problems getting along EVERYWHERE she was... .family, church, workplace, etc.  Always someone "after her".  Always someone against her, hurting her, victimizing her.  

And yes, at the beginning she put me on such a ridiculous pedestal.  I was literally the fulfillment of everything she asked God for.  However, within a year, after we got married, I was told, "YOU LIED TO ME ABOUT WHO YOU ARE!"  I was like a deer in headlights and spent the next almost 14 years trying to get back to what she thought I was, trying to improve, be better... .be a "man", be better in bed, be more affectionate, give her more attention, wipe her butt in every turn.  I did so many sweet things for her and helped her through many difficult times.  And in some ways, she may appreciate it.  She told me a few months ago that she sees I was more like the dad she never had.  But really... .she is incapable of appreciating it for what it was or seeing the depths of hurt she has caused me or the kids.

I thought after getting him into therapy and educating him ... .he would be ready to confront his inner demons. Instead, he gave up on me and on us. Now, I know hes hunting for his next fix/validation ... since we're not speaking and that hurts.

And that IS what BPD is.  Avoid resonsibility, run, run to the next thing that will fill them up.  Give up, move on.  Push away, then pull you back when you finally get sick of it and walk away.

I know it hurts, but that is not love.  :)o you really want to be someone's "fix"?  If so, why?  Wouldn't you rather be genuinely loved, or would you rather just settle for a cheap substitute called neediness and infatuation?  The problem with the cheap substitute is that is kills you because there are side-effects... .abuse, lying, cheating, one-way relationships, etc.

I just wish I could stop hurting and feel better. Stop missing him and stop caring.

How did you do it?

Although we had almost split up probably 7 times over 14 years, our first "divorce" attempt was 9 years into the marriage.  I was her perfect little puppy dog by then.  I wiped her butt, kissed it, and asked for more.  And I felt like a deer in headlights, like I was always on a treadmill, wondering when the shoe would drop and she would cheat on me and want to leave again.  A terrible way to live.  Two years later, we almost divorced again (another affair).  Two years later, I finally pulled the plug.  So, how did I do it?  With the help of a therapist, I finally accepted that I didn't deserve being treated this way.  I had bought into the idea so much that I had failed her and that is why she kept hurting me and leaving that I would keep trying harder to be perfect, to no avail.  With the help of a T, I finally realized that was a big lie.  I began to process it all, but I still held on.  We divorced 13 years into the marriage, but though I was doing better being away from her, I still didn't want to completely let go.  It was when I ended our final recycle after the divorce that I 100% accepted it all and realized without a doubt what and who I was dealing with.  Before, I could be 90% sure, but 10% doubt kept me hanging on.

Or to put it better, my T helped me work through my self-doubt which was really just a coping mechanism to avoid dealing with severe pain and trauma.  I worked through that and realized that I saw very clearly who she was, and I was done.  

I've had some issues since getting pulled into the drama when she stirs it up, but praise God I've been able to get back on my feet in short order.  

How did I "do it"?  Well, I'm still doing it.  But I couldn't have done it without my Therapist.  And I just got sick of being hurt.  Even though, at first, I still felt like it was my fault, I didn't care.  I had suffered enough over the years that even if I was the stupidest and most unmanly man who ever lived, I would rather live with that alone than spend another minute trying to make it work with a person who has caused me so much suffering.  And as I walked away, I saw that I wasn't stupid or unmanly at all.

They can act like they care.  They can act endearing, and in some way they probably mean it.  I can still imagine her tear-filled eyes looking at me as I turn my back.  But it isn't love in the real sense.  It is need.  They need someone to carry their crap.  They need a pack mule.  I don't want to be that ever again, and I won't be.

I want to challenge one thing that you wrote.  Thinking about this might help you go on your way a bit better:

He's not malicious, he didn't do any of it hurt me and that's why I struggle to be angry. He's merely trying to fill the void and fill the loneliness.

Did you notice how you are protecting him?  I used to do the same thing.  I would parrot everything she said.  I would find ways to minimize the hurt she caused.  I get that he may not be being "malicious", and that maybe he wasn't intentionally trying to hurt you, but please realize that it doesn't make it less hurtful.  In some ways, it makes it more.  These people know what they are doing.  They are just too wrapped up in themselves to care, comparatively.  I've seen behind the mask of my ex.  I've seen and heard how she has talked about me to others, even though she insisted for years how she spoke very protectively of me.  They are more concerned with *looking* like a good person than actually being one.  So, when you sit and think about this, ask yourself why you would want to minimize his betrayal?  I would rather have someone punch me in the face and call me names than pretend they mean me no harm and rip my soul up like my ex did repeatedly.  You gave yourself to him, opened yourself to him, and he broke that and treated it like garbage.  :)on't mistake betrayal and lying and tossing you away like you are meaningless as some kind of "innocent crime" just because he has a "problem".  We all have problems.  :)runk drivers have problems, too, but they are held accountable because when they kill someone it destroys lives and families.  

[lovethebeach]

OutofEgypt:

I can't thank you enough. Your post moved me to tears and I definitely have a lot to ponder.

This is all so new and painful to me. I'm trying to learn from those before me, to not make the same mistakes.

"When I first met my ex 15 years ago, I never heard someone talk so much.  So charismatic.  So charming, but in a kind of misunderstood, unfortunate victim kind of way... .that makes you go "aww".  And yet, she had problems getting along EVERYWHERE she was... .family, church, workplace, etc.  Always someone "after her".  Always someone against her, hurting her, victimizing her."

Ethan always needed saving. But he was such a charmer and so misunderstood. The beginning was such a whirlwind. Our stories sound so similar. I did absolutely everything I could for him and it still wasn't enough.

I guess I have one last question, as I ponder all that you've said... .

Why do you think he left after I confronted him, on yet another lie?

I guess I do need to stop protecting him. It's not even a thought process anymore. I need to stop feeling bad for him.

:'(

My heart just hurts.

[OutOfEgypt]

You're welcome.  Glad to pass on what I've learned and been through.  

Why do I think he left after you confronted him?

Hard to say... .pressure got to him, maybe.  Maybe you were a reminder of bad things he was doing, and it triggered too much shame.  Maybe he wanted to leave you, first, before you got a chance to leave him.  Could be all of those.  In the end, it doesn't really matter.  That is something we learn we must let go of, too: trying to figure out why they do things.  They can try to explain it, but they may be lying even then.

Wanting to protect them is very common, and understandable to a point, though unhealthy.  What has really helped me get past it was realizing a few things:

- She doesn't "love" me like I think.  I'm sure somewhere deep down she loves me.  But that look in her eyes that I imagine when I walk away, which provokes a feeling of guilt (like I'm abandoning her), is not love.  It is need.  We aren't abandoning them.  We're refusing to live in their little emotional cave any longer.  It is better for us, and it is better for them.  They will no doubt replace us, but the cave sucks.  Who the #$ wants to live in a cave?  Once you feel the sun on your face more and smell the fresh air, you will ask yourself the same thing.  We aren't doing something wrong.  We're shattering the false image they are projecting and walking away in the truth.

- She isn't helpless and incapable.  She may fall on her face a thousand times.  She may drop out of school, find herself in dysfunctional relationship after dysfunctional relationship, and, in ten years, be essentially in the same place she is in now.  But when a normal person screws up, blows it, struggles, or finds themselves in bad situations, they do something about it.  They seek help.  They make their way to a counselor.  They read and research.  The look for healthy community to learn and grow.  These folks really don't do that.  They just find more people to dump all of their drama and need on.  And there's always someone ready to pick it up.

-It isn't wrong for you to want to protect YOU.  Sometimes I think we are afraid it makes us selfish to think about protecting ourselves and our health, but it isn't.  It safeguards us so that we can give everything God has put into us in good and healthy ways in good and healthy relationships.  And sometimes I think we are afraid that if we stop protecting people like this, we will wind up alone.  But it isn't true.  If we find healthy autonomy, we can find and attract other people who have healthy autonomy, too.  And then when two people who are healthily autonomous get together, there mutual care and mutual support that is neither smothering nor demanding nor distant.  It's just two people doing life together, like partners.  Imagine that.

- I'm not responsible for another person's happiness.  It is true that anybody can do things that make another person unhappy, but I am not responsible for (heck, I'm not even CAPABLE of) managing another person's happiness and filling up their constantly-draining tank.  If someone puts you on a pedestal, run.  No person is God.  No person can fulfill another's needs like that.  God wouldn't even be enough because it isn't really even about fulfilling their needs.  That is just how it manifests.


I just thought of another simple way to distinguish things, too, that a friend told me recently.  Ask yourself two questions:

Does it hurt them?  (Maybe, but if I am doing the right thing, I am not responsible for it hurting them.  I can feel badly, but I am not in the wrong for doing the right thing)

Does it harm them?  (This is a different question.  You can hurt someone and not harm them.  With a person with BPD/NPD, it takes very little to "hurt" them, but holy crap... .are we really "harming" them?  NO)

[lovethebeach]

OutofEgypt:

Every post resonates with me. It's so eye opening. Thank you so much, seriously. Today is Veterans Day, I guess thats why I'm struggling.

I'm hoping everyday the pain lessens, although its getting worse before it seems to be getting better.

Any last pieces of advice moving forward?

What was the hardest part for you?

For me, it's being discarded. He's so cold and distant... .like he doesn't care. Even if I know somewhere deep deep down he does, he isn't showing it. He must know that he messed up BIG TIME, even if he won't admit it to himself. Maybe with maturity he'll realize his mistakes? I don't know.

[OutOfEgypt]

You're welcome .

It's not bad that it feels like the pain is getting worse.  Things need to come to the surface.  But it is that pain that propels us to get to the point where we say, "Ok, I'm done hurting like this.  I'm ready to start enjoying life and making a life for myself."

Yup, being discarded hurts.  Bigtime.  She could dump me and "grieve me" in a single evening, even after 11 years of marriage (I'm thinking of a particular instance).  She told me later that the most distressing thing to her was the thought that we would never have sex again.  That was a bit eye-opening to me... .showed me where her heart was really at, especially considering how she put me down about sex for our entire marriage and left me for men who would "do it right" (of course, we never seemed to have a problem at first, but in a short time I was never enough, which made me feel and perform worse, and so on).

The hardest part for me was probably two things:  1) getting over the idea that some other guy out there is better.  I eventually realized that was a bunch of crap.  Relationships are never supposed to be about finding "better".  That vocabulary should not cross our lips.  What we should look for is if the person is present and involved and cares for us mutually -like a partner should. 2) dealing with the drama because I have to remain in contact with her regarding the sharing of our children.  I would love nothing more than to be able to move away and never see or hear her ever again.  But I can't.  So, I have to learn to let go, and to not get sucked into the drama -which can be difficult at times because she can be a bit scary when she feels cross and paints you black.  Her sense of morality suddenly disappears.

He must know that he messed up BIG TIME, even if he won't admit it to himself. Maybe with maturity he'll realize his mistakes? I don't know.

Probably he does.  But with maturity he'll realize his mistakes?  Don't hold your breath.  BPD and NPD describe people with extremely dysfunctional and regressive coping mechanisms and relating styles.  Maturity, as you and I know it, doesn't really exist for them.  They are kinda like overly-sensitive three-year-olds in adult bodies.  Very needs-based.  Emotionally reactive and often vindictive when they are challenged, crossed, or even thought ill of.

Or to put it another way, even if he does realize his mistakes, it won't make a difference.  They realize and admit to mistakes in the way an alcoholic admits to having a problem with drinking while he's pounding a scotch at the bar.  There is a huge difference between admitting how things are and taking responsibility and caring enough to really make changes. 

So, this is where you are being challenged to let this go.  Not one thing will make a lick of difference.  And even if it would, we're talking years and years down the line.  In either case, you've gotta forget about it.  The person that he is will only continue to be the person he is.  A counselor once told me, "The only thing that is going to make any difference is if God breaks her into a million pieces and puts her back together again."  I've known this woman for 15 years.  It hasn't happened, but even if it did I wouldn't believe it.  I would just be happy that my kids appeared to have a sane mom who is capable of loving them.

Let him go.  I'm sorry you are hurting today, but the wish you have for how things could have been is not reality.  I know you have a vision in your mind, but it isn't reality.  The person who lies to you and looks for other women behind your back, only to drop you like a hot potato when you confront him, is reality.  And he'll keep doing it to you as long as you are with him.  I held on for ALL those years, praying and begging God to fix things, begging for signs and answers, hoping beyond hope that around the next bend in the road things would finally smooth out for us.  I almost thought that was happening when she finally went into therapy, but it was a lie.

[lovethebeach]

OutofEgypt:

   You seem so knowledgeable and well along in your recovery through this process! Good for you! I wish I was where you are at!

From what I hear he's been out everyday. He's been down at our university (I graduated) every weekend... .drinking and partying... probably smoking and doing God knows what. On the off days, he's been working and hanging out with people after work. I heard he didn't do his paper, instead chose to pay someone to write it ... .so he could go out. Doesn't he realize that this is his LAST SHOT at making a decent future for himself. Instead, it seems to be still all about instant gratification. I understand we're young... .but the future matters!

I remember on the first therapy session I went to with him, I told the therapist that he was a completely different person than the one in the beginning... .or so I thought. He stopped all the BS and was so perfect. The T also asked me if Ethan only got one thing out of all of his therapy, what would it be, I said "That he's worth it. He deserves it." I still believe somewhere buried deep there is a genuine person. God, I wish I could have that without all of this BS.

It's like he hasn't stopped since the break-up. It seems like he's out having a blast, while I'm hurting. While he's never been officially diagnosed, he fits NPD/BPD like a glove. He also has ADHD for which it was so severe they did neuro feedback as a child... .It seems he has to hit bottom, if he ever does to truly get help. He always said he wanted to change, but evidently ... .the minute I'm gone things go back to the way they were.

How do you make closure on a situation?

and How do I become okay with the replacement?

All I wanted was answers... .but every time I asked ... .he got mad. He said he doesn't know why he does the things he does.

[rosannadanna]

"The only thing that is going to make any difference is if God breaks her into a million pieces and puts her back together again."  

I think this is true of my ex.  Every pwBPD is different, has different comormidity and different levels of insight/motivation for change.  My ex was dx'ed, had been in therapy off and on for years, including inpt, DBT (jointly with ex-wife and individually post-divorce), the sex addition rehab center where Tiger Woods was treated, marriage counseling with ex-wife, couples counseling with me, and when I left, he was attending the CODA 12 step meetings that he had found out about through me. And at the end of the day he was still just a commitment-phobe and I couldn't have a healthy relationship with him.  It was kind of pitiful how insightful he was at 44 and wanted to find relief from the torture in his head, but he was broken and didn't know how to be different.  I sound really judgemental saying that, but there are just people out there that can't do intimacy b/c something really detrimental happened in childhood (not always the parents' direct mistreatment).  

My ex's father murdered his mother when my ex was five years old.  His father, an ASPD/N/BPD paranoid sadistic meth freak proceeded to raise my ex with ritualistic physical and emotional abuse.  My ex thinks his father sexually abused him when he was around five but has no cognitive memory, just some body memories.

My ex is a truly beautiful person and I am in awe of him for just getting through each day.  Maybe the woman he is with now is getting a slightly healthier version of him since he really does try to work on himself.  But maybe he is still the same.  It doesn't matter if he is happy or if she is happy or if they are making it.  I think I know a little of what is in his head and I don't think those distortions are ever really going completely away, so he will probably always tend to fall back on his dysfunctional ways.

As far as your ex, you said that his mother was NPD, so he basically has a messed r/s with his mother and the family dynamic as a whole was probably messed up.  This is huge in regards to his identity, whether or he not he is able to sustain reciprocal intimacy, and his belief system in general.  All of these things could be so deeply distorted that he would have to do a ton of work to make progress towards real change.  And like somebody said on here:  "The disorder exists to deny itself."

But if you want to take on a project, this one is a doosy.  I had to see for myself before I was able to let go of trying to control an outcome I had no control over.

[OutOfEgypt]

It sucks that he's going to do that to himself, but it is what it is.  Ya know?  Can't save people.

How do you make closure on a situation?

You stop looking for it from him and you stop looking for explanations.  You accept what is, and you create your own closure.

How do I become okay with the replacement?

By being happy with your new life and realizing his problem with needing to replace you is HIS problem (and fault), not yours.  It is really nice to be able to sleep through the night without being tormented by anxiety because my wife is out with some other guy.  That is worth its weight in gold.  She can hump 5,000 dudes at once for all I care.  It is worth it.  I have peace.  I never had peace when I was with her.