need help with validation

[Parents! Get help here!]

We are  reading all the books  on validation, but something threw me for a loop tonight. I need some examples on how to validate when you are totally shocked by something.

My 15 year old d said some awful things about her dad which were totally untrue. What she said is so out of character even for my husband. We don't even spank and she accused him of threatening to stab her when she was younger. I was so shocked that my steps on how to validate just went out the window.

Can you give me some advice on what I should have said? I know that validation is not about validating the invalid, but what do you do when it is a lie? My d has always been so sensitive, just looking at her sternly made her truly believe that we didn't love her. We have her with 3 Dr's  whom we see weekly and monthly and drive 2 hours for her appointments but the other day I read her post  on her blog that she wants to get help but her parents won't take her to a dr or therapist.

How do you validate, remember to validate when it is so untrue?

[Amal]

We are  reading all the books  on validation, but something threw me for a loop tonight. I need some examples on how to validate when you are totally shocked by something.

My 15 year old d said some awful things about her dad which were totally untrue. What she said is so out of character even for my husband. We don't even spank and she accused him of threatening to stab her when she was younger. I was so shocked that my steps on how to validate just went out the window.

Can you give me some advice on what I should have said? I know that validation is not about validating the invalid, but what do you do when it is a lie? My d has always been so sensitive, just looking at her sternly made her truly believe that we didn't love her. We have her with 3 Dr's  whom we see weekly and monthly and drive 2 hours for her appointments but the other day I read her post  on her blog that she wants to get help but her parents won't take her to a dr or therapist.

How do you validate, remember to validate when it is so untrue?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[SlyQQ]

I think the video on Validation here is way of the mark and posted a thread there are a few things that a lot of people agreed with one it is easy to validate when the person is not dysregulated ( as normally occurs in the "respected psyches office ( who they are probably trying to win over" Bpds misread cues ( see BPD an angry facerecognition they mistake genuine feelings for what they want to beleive especially when dysregulated ) this makes validation impossible ( they just want to blame some one to stop the hurt) The last example in the video when a BPD comes over and kicks there bag into a stand or somesuch is a prime example of this. Validation does not work if they are looking for a fight an you only end up feeding into attention seeking behaviour ( especially if you have gone through a devaluation or are in a painted black cycle) it works well for non BPDs or those in a calm state with a respected authority figure otherwise beware

[SlyQQ]

Just another adjunct to this genuine BPDs are experts at both Validation an empathic reflection ( even the younger ones are very good) they are two very early tools they develop in there defense arsenal making it even harder to employ these if they are non receptive and may antagonize them further ( becuase if they want to they will see through what you are doing)

[Rapt Reader]

Amal, I'm so sorry for what is happening with your daughter, and the trauma she is causing you and your family. There are several members of this Board who have gone through a similar situation, and they should be able to let you know how they handled it.

I have family members with undiagnosed BPD or BPD traits (though my adult son was diagnosed with BPD in April 2013), and sometimes have needed to deal with their dysregulations over things that I know not to be true. Nothing as serious as a false accusation of physical abuse, but things that have come out of left field that make no sense at all. At times like that, I've listened to them with a caring, concerned look on my face--while trying to get to the underlying pain that the accusation is coming from.

Though the accusation seems like a lie to me, somewhere inside my loved one there is a pain that is causing some feeling that he/she is reacting to and dysregulating over. If I can get to the root of the pain, it helps with validating what he/she is feeling. If I cannot validate the instance being described, I try to validate the feeling and pain behind it, and that generally calms things down.

So, I guess what I am saying is that being patient, compassionate and sympathetic long enough to calm my loved one down, and get to the real nub of the pain he/she is in, can result in figuring things out. And validating where the pain comes from, and the pain itself, is my goal when the dysregulation is over something I don't find true in my reality... .

I don't at all believe that validation is ever really impossible; there is always some feeling that can be acknowledged by us, so that our loved one feels heard and understood. I also find that my BPD son (37) thoroughly appreciates my validating him and though he is in Treatment and several Therapies, and knows exactly what validation is, he still responds well to my validating him every time. He calms down right away when dysregulated (though it doesn't happen very often now) if I can validate and listen to him, and even tells me that though he knows what I am "doing", that he appreciates it anyway 

[SlyQQ]

I would say if you are painted black it is like hitler saying oh i see where you are coming from and in this circumstance particularly it is outright impossible to use validation as a technique at other times due to circumstances it maybe extremely difficult

[llbee814]

Validation is hard.  And it is tricky.  Sometimes it works like a charm.  Other times it can backfire on you.  Many times, I screw it up... .royally. 

I like rapt readers concept and how she describes it.  To me,  she has really crystallized it here to be a tool we can use to show our understanding of our dear BPD's feelings at a certain point in time.  This is not to say we are endorsing lies.  Major tripping up point for me, Amal, is dealing with my dd's lies.  Can't validate them,  can't confront them outright, either.  Unless of course, we want the whole rage deal... .nope, don't want to go there.

So,  sometimes I can manage to switch over to SET... .support,  empathy,  truth.  Again,  isn't always successful.  Have to tapdance faster, .

I have a thing going with my dd regarding "false thinking or wrong thoughts."  She is dx'd bipolar and this fits in with discussions she and I have had about that.   I don't challenge or question what she is feeling, but will ask her if maybe she is looking at a situation or something that is making her feel badly in a way that she is jumping to conclusions over or maybe not seeing it clearly because of a mood swing.  This has allowed her to blame the situation she has been in rather than herself, and she can rethink it and let it go as being "false."

AND when that's a no go and a big fail,  I reach for radical acceptance.   Also maybe some spackle and paint,  blech.  Seriously, though,  nothing works all the time, whether you are perfect at the tools, lessons, rules, whatever you want to call them.  Our BPD children, for all of their similarities, are all different and react differently.  We can only do the best we can do and keep on trying.

Good luck to you.  Blessings,  L.

[Rapt Reader]

I would say if you are painted black it is like hitler saying oh i see where you are coming from

and in this circumstance particularly it is outright impossible to use validation as a technique

at other times due to circumstances it maybe extremely difficult

I'm sure that this is true in some circumstances (though using Hitler as an analogy is a unique perspective, and one I can't agree with   ), but my experience is that even when painted black, I've been able to use a combination of Validation and S.E.T. to calm things down, get to the truth of the situation, and eventually end the impasse. Sure it can be extremely difficult, and may take more than one try. But at this time all of my relationships with my BPD and BPD traits loved ones are running smoothly. I credit Validation, S.E.T., the videos and information on this site, and the insights I've learned from Valerie Porr's book.

A negative attitude ("it is outright impossible to use validation as a technique" about any situation--no matter how tough it is--with our loved ones is not the basis of learning how to deal with them in a way that makes things better. Is it frustrating? Yes. Is it hard? Yes. Is it very hard sometimes? Definitely yes. But compassion, empathy and listening with love (all needed for validation to "work" can't come from a place of negativity, anger, or giving up. And if you cannot make any headway with your loved one, and they continue to paint you black, you can step aside in love and wait for the right time to try again.

It took me more than 6 months of continual patience working with my undiagnosed Daughter-in-law to break through a situation like that with her, but eventually broke through it by not giving up, and by emailing with her and talking on the phone with her with love and compassion. I finally figured out the real reason for her negative feelings about me (and my Husband), was able to validate them and use S.E.T. and some of Valerie Porr's advice to write her the email that opened the door to a better relationship. I didn't validate the things that were not true in the situation, but did have all the empathy and compassion for her feelings about it. The story about it is in this Workshop, which helped me immensely: How do we become more empathetic to the pwBPD in our life?

[theplotthickens]

It means open up and emotionally hug someone who is shooting psychic bullets at you.  If you have any reservations about doing this, "let it go" and get on some heavy medication to numb your true emotions. 

This said with a heavy dose of sarcasm. 

[theplotthickens]

Ooops, I am in a mood today. 

Really, just speak to the feelings.  "That must have been so scary for you.  Can you tell me more?  What can I do to help?" 

That sort of thing.  Their feelings are all that are important if you want to validate. 

[Amal]

llbee  and  rapt

Thank you for the words  of encouragement.  I keep plugging away with what I'm learning and sometimes with great success sometimes dismal failure.

If I could give you both the scenario, could you tell what way you would have handled it?  Old habits die hard and I was so shocked that I immediately switched into countering her accusations with logic to  convince her her perception is off. Complete wrong move on my part because it quickly escalated but she did have to change the subject because it was not true and her younger sister was there to say that didn't happen.

She was already very upset because she didn't want to go to family therapy... .she said she would only go if we just discuss her issues, why I won't let her do this or that. When she saw the sessions focus wasn't all about her it got more and more heated. As her father was speaking she blurted out that she didn't care about him anymore because She said that he was a horrible father and once made her go get a knife and bring it to him just to scare her. I immediately asked her where was I at the time and she changed the subject referring to the time other times when he scared her.

When she was giving her history to the therapist she was giving a very warped perception of reality... .actually it was not the truth at all but I stayed silent. She told the therapist how she had been severely overweight , never true, and was teased by class mates because she had severe acne. My d has porcelain white skin and has never had a pimple. I couldn't tell the therapist that this is not true although therapist knew the weight one wasn't because my d has anorexia and was always thin before that.

When my d said these things the therapist asked my husband what happened, and he told her the truth ... .that this never happened.

It was an awful session but the therapist thought we got some things out so we have a good starting place.

It was a family session so we were able to speak up whenever we wanted, but I just felt like I handled it so poorly. How can I day wow that must have been awful for you when I lived with her and know that this is not what happened?

[SlyQQ]

"A negative attitude ("it is outright impossible to use validation as a technique" about any situation--no matter how tough it is--with our loved ones is not the basis of learning how to deal with them in a way that makes things better. Is it frustrating? Yes. Is it hard? Yes. Is it very hard sometimes? Definitely yes. But compassion, empathy and listening with love (all needed for validation to "work" can't come from a place of negativity, anger, or giving up. And if you cannot make any headway with your loved one, and they continue to paint you black, you can step aside in love and wait for the right time to try again." qoute from previous post

I have a very positive attitude i dont know why you think otherwise I am just saying you have to pick the Validation tool carefully there are sometimes it wont work I know with my BPDs i am lucky to get of with a few genuine "i will kill you" s' when i am painted black but everyone is different I am just aware when validation is throwing oil on the fire which i dont believe is pointed out properly an other techniques are better employed 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Rapt Reader]

Amal, we have a good Feature Article: Supporting a Child in Therapy for Borderline Personality Disorder (that is very helpful whether the child is actually in Therapy or not). It can explain how to not J.A.D.E. (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) when your daughter is dysregulating. This is an excerpt from that Article:

What Should We Do When Things Go Wrong?

Don’t get defensive.

Don’t get defensive in the face of accusations and criticisms. However unfair, say little and don’t fight. Allow yourself to be hurt. Admit to whatever is true in the criticisms.

When people who love each other get angry at each other, they may hurl heavy insults in a fit of rage. This is especially true for people with BPD because they tend to feel a great deal of anger.

The natural response to criticism that feels unfair is to defend oneself. But, as anyone who has ever tried to defend oneself in such a situation knows, defending yourself doesn’t work. A person who is enraged is not able to think through an alternative perspective in a cool, rational fashion.

Attempts to defend oneself only fuel the fire. Essentially, defensiveness suggests that you believe the other person’s anger is unwarranted, a message that leads to greater rage. Given that a person who is expressing rage with words is not posing a threat of physical danger to herself or others, it is wisest to simply listen without arguing. What that individual wants most is to be heard. Of course, listening without arguing means getting hurt because it is very painful to recognize that someone you love could feel so wronged by you. Sometimes the accusations hurt because they seem to be so frankly false and unfair. Other times, they may hurt because they contain some kernel of truth. If you feel that there is some truth in what you’re hearing, admit it with a statement such as, "I think you’re on to something. I can see that I’ve hurt you and I’m sorry." Remember that such anger is part of the problem for people with BPD. It may be that she was born with a very aggressive nature. The anger may represent one side of her feelings which can rapidly reverse. (See discussion of black and white thinking.) Keeping these points in mind can help you to avoid taking the anger personally.



I think that reading the whole Article would be very beneficial to you in the situation you are describing, and I highly recommend it, Amal 

I have a very positive attitude

That is very good, SlyQQ... .Because we cannot have the right frame of mind or heart to learn how to deal with our BPD children, or to deal with them, in a way that is helpful to them and us unless our attitude is one of love and positivity. I, personally, have never found Validation (or S.E.T.) to be similar to throwing oil on the fire; it's always achieved the opposite: putting out the fires or at least tamping them down to softly glowing coals. I'm sorry for the troubles you are having with your BPD child, and if you are finding the tools & techniques are making things worse for you in that relationship, that is sad... .Take a look at that Article I linked to above, and see if you can find anything there that might help?