Court ordered psych evaluation

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Has anybody taken these tests, specifically MMPI2 and MCMI3? I have both scheduled for tomorrow along with some other tests. My uBPD ex is doing it next week with the same psychologist. She has insisted on psych evaluation to prove I have some mental illness, and probably hopes I will get help so we can be a family. I think she believes she can fool these tests. I have an idea what these tests measure, deception, etc but I'm curious how. How is it possible to know if somebody is truthful or not? What kind of questions are asked?

[New_dad.]

Has anybody taken these tests, specifically MMPI2 and MCMI3? I have both scheduled for tomorrow along with some other tests. My uBPD ex is doing it next week with the same psychologist. She has insisted on psych evaluation to prove I have some mental illness, and probably hopes I will get help so we can be a family. I think she believes she can fool these tests. I have an idea what these tests measure, deception, etc but I'm curious how. How is it possible to know if somebody is truthful or not? What kind of questions are asked?

[Matt]

Our marriage counselor told me that she believed my wife probably had BPD, so when it became clear the marriage couldn't be saved, I filed a motion to have a Custody Evaluator appointed - a Ph.D. psychologist.  He asked us both to take the MMPI-2.

Took about two hours.  About 500 items.  Each one is something like, "I enjoy myself when I'm alone." or "Most people like me." - you rate it from "Very true" to "Very false" (or something like that).  They're worded so there's no right or wrong answer - both answers seem equally "good".

It can tell when you're trying to fool it.  There are a few "truth scales" - combinations of items - not all in a row but scattered through the test - which the computer looks at together to see the patterns which indicate whether you're answering honestly.  My wife's results said she "presented falsely" - lied.  And even then, it can still enable diagnosis - she was diagnosed with BPD and some other stuff based on the MMPI-2 results.

My advice is, relax and answer honestly, and don't stress over it.  You can't fool it and any effort to try to outsmart it will only make things worse.

Then, no matter what your results are - and I think most of us (including me) learn we have some issues - the key is to take it seriously and take the right steps to deal with what you learn.

[New_dad.]

Our marriage counselor told me that she believed my wife probably had BPD, so when it became clear the marriage couldn't be saved, I filed a motion to have a Custody Evaluator appointed - a Ph.D. psychologist.  He asked us both to take the MMPI-2.

Took about two hours.  About 500 items.  Each one is something like, "I enjoy myself when I'm alone." or "Most people like me." - you rate it from "Very true" to "Very false" (or something like that).  They're worded so there's no right or wrong answer - both answers seem equally "good".

It can tell when you're trying to fool it.  There are a few "truth scales" - combinations of items - not all in a row but scattered through the test - which the computer looks at together to see the patterns which indicate whether you're answering honestly.  My wife's results said she "presented falsely" - lied.  And even then, it can still enable diagnosis - she was diagnosed with BPD and some other stuff based on the MMPI-2 results.

My advice is, relax and answer honestly, and don't stress over it.  You can't fool it and any effort to try to outsmart it will only make things worse.

Then, no matter what your results are - and I think most of us (including me) learn we have some issues - the key is to take it seriously and take the right steps to deal with what you learn.

Thanks Matt. Seems like a good advise.

[ForeverDad]

I had a few tests, I don't recall any specific comments about it, our CE said he was not there to make a diagnosis but rather to recommend custody, etc.  Concerning me, attention was focused on my need to point out every last detail of ex's poor behaviors in my extensive documentation, by then a year into the divorce process.  (I was really fearful they would be ignored or overlooked.)  Ex was reported to have 'tangential' thoughts.  As the differences between us parents was noted in how we interacted with our children, she was overly protective/restrictive.

The conclusion in the initial report was surprisingly basic... .Mother could not share 'her' child but Father could... .  Mother should immediately lose temporary custody (court did nothing but go on to the next step) and if Shared Parenting was tried and it failed then Father should have custody.

What is key is that you have a perceptive and experienced custody evaluator, mine happened to be a child psychologist, I recall one visit he said he had to next go to the local university to give a lecture.  What you want is someone who has a reputation for making solid recommendations, not one who still defaults to Mother no matter what, as though the outdated Tender Years Doctrine was still the latest and greatest.

Sadly though, there still seems to be an unwritten and unstated policy among the professionals to have procedures and defaults give preference to mothers.  It's almost like, "Why shouldn't mother get the defaults?"  I can understand that, but not when a mother has serious issues.

However, some of our mothers here also report problems with their misbehaving ex-spouses getting too much attention and consideration.  I suspect in part it is because "the squeaky wheel gets the grease", the reasonable parent probably won't push too hard but the entitled obstructive parent will and so they hold back a bit trying not to get in the middle.

[Matt]

I had a few tests, I don't recall any specific comments about it, our CE said he was not there to make a diagnosis but rather to recommend custody, etc.

I think it's important to get diagnoses for both parents, and make sure they are known by both parties - no secrets.

How in the world can a CE make a sensible recommendation about custody without first diagnosing any serious problem, like a psychological disorder, in either parent, which might hurt her ability to be a good parent?

Kids raised by someone with BPD, who isn't in treatment, are at much higher risk for substance abuse, depression, and a bunch of other serious problems, than kids raised by a healthy parent.

And it goes both ways:  most of us have some problem - maybe small - that we should know about, so we can do something about it.  My MMPI-2 showed a higher-than-average risk for addiction.  I wasn't drinking or using drugs, and I had never had a problem in that area, so the CE just said, "Keep doing what you're doing."  But how could I be aware of the risk, if there wasn't a diagnosis based on the MMPI-2 - an objective evaluation?

I would press for diagnoses for both parents, and when you get yours, take appropriate steps to deal with any problem it shows.  And if the other parent has a serious problem, and doesn't get appropriate treatment, that should absolutely be a big factor in deciding custody.

[scraps66]

This sounds promising.  Good they have you both using the same Dr.  Correct, the tests seem like nothing, but the skilled interpretation of the results can show that someone is "presenting falsely," BP for lying.  I had an MMPI-2, and four other tests, parenting index, and some others.  The additional tests are administered to provide additional validation/corroboration of the MMPI-2 results.

It's funny, "our" psychological evaluations were botched.  Took me three trips back to court to try to straighten it out and result with my ex's very bogus psychological evaluation.  Though the court transcript described what needed to be done, the Order issued by the court failed to specify the Dr. that we were both to use.  Eventually ex would succumb and get this bogus evaluation compared to mine done by a top notch forensic psychologist.

After this, every attorney I met with said that I could go back and try again, but I would have to pay for her eval this time. 

Recently in front of the Custody Master, based on visual inspection, that there was no psychological concerns with ex and that he did not see the benefit of a psychological evaluation... .though originally it was court-ordered.

All of the above is tremendously logical and makes perfect sense.  It is amazing that the courts just get this stuff so wrong.

[behindme]

These are fairly standard tests designed to assess psychopathology and personality. If one parent takes it, it's generally accepted that the other must take it as well. There's usually "raw data" associated with the testing to ensure validity of scoring so I'd ask for that to be provided as well to prevent any bias in reporting. From what I understand, it's not unusual for a uBPD, or uNPD, to request such testing b/c they're in so much denial about their disorder and then they're completely shocked when the results come back not in their favor. 

[Matt]

These are fairly standard tests designed to assess psychopathology and personality. If one parent takes it, it's generally accepted that the other must take it as well. There's usually "raw data" associated with the testing to ensure validity of scoring so I'd ask for that to be provided as well to prevent any bias in reporting. From what I understand, it's not unusual for a uBPD, or uNPD, to request such testing b/c they're in so much denial about their disorder and then they're completely shocked when the results come back not in their favor. 

I'm not familiar with the other one, but the MMPI-2 is based on tons of research over several decades.  It has been proven to be very meaningful.

I think it's a good strategy to ask that both parents take the same test.  That way, there is no presumption - you don't have to prove there is a reason for the other party to take it but not you - it's just gathering objective information to see what it says.  The only argument against it is the cost - about $500 each - not a very strong argument against getting this important information for the court to consider.

The scoring is done by a company that doesn't know the test-taker's name or the reason for the testing.  All they know is the age and sex of the subject.  So there is no possibility for bias.

My own experience was that my wife knew that I believed she had a problem, because our marriage counselor had told me - and I told my attorney, who told my wife's attorney - that she (the MC) believed my wife had BPD.  My wife probably knew she had a problem of some sort.  She fought against the testing til her attorney told her, "We can't get out of this without looking very bad.  Best to take the test."  My wife then tried to fool the test, and it showed that she had "presented falsely" (lied), and it also enabled a diagnosis of "multiple psychological disorders" including BPD.

[ForeverDad]

Unless someone has murdered the spouse, ex or children, courts will almost always dance around the facts and evident reality.  "Presenting falsely" is psych-speak.  "Not credible" is court-speak.  Normal people would say "liar" and "lies" and probably even more emphatic word choices.

Why?  One reason many courts and professionals try not to be too blunt in their reports, evaluations and decisions.  They realize that in most cases both parents will have parenting time and so don't want to proclaim a 'winner' or a 'loser'.  They hope that once the (presumed reasonably normal) parents get past the emotions of the separation or divorce that they can co-parent together.  Unfortunately it doesn't work when one parent (or both) is seriously disordered with distorted perceptions or acting-out behaviors.

Another reason is so the 'winner' doesn't dump on the 'loser'.  My lawyer said one father who got a good - but confidential - report made copies and put them on every car in his neighborhood.  It is understandable that he wanted to share the reality that he wasn't the misbehaving parent.  Needless to say, that huge misstep boomeranged on him and from that time forward the court told lawyers not to let their clients get copies of the more sensitive reports.

[Unleashed]

Be cautious with psych evals.  It is common to recommend therapy for "... .features,"  i.e. no diagnosis, still a label, still recommending therapy.  It is also possible that the psych will mix up facts, quantity of lies coming in, and make a more significant error.  The psych industry labels more people, and fixes fewer than many other medical fields.  Finally, even a moderate, clear BPD standards person, can often be diagnosed with a lesser "anxiety," etc. diagnosis; as BPD and insurance payments do not mix well.  All in all, based on my experience I do not recommend participating in one, but depending on your jurisdiction's attitude you might have to.

One of those surveys offered seemed difficult in that I seem to want to give a sentence, not a 5 point agreement, some sentences seemed to fail to capture my feelings on the topic.  They seem to offer a lot of questions to average out your answers, if I was given any more questions they might have found me asleep at the pen, it got old filling ovals.

In my case the BPD'w came out validated that she was fine, and continued to commit significant offenses with impuny, holding the psych report as a label of non-BPD.  Her life did not improve, she is BPD, and still lacks the tools to survive in a family or career.  Ahh, normal people just live their lives, it's not a game of minefield, and statements of denial.

[Matt]

Be cautious with psych evals.  It is common to recommend therapy for "... .features,"  i.e. no diagnosis, still a label, still recommending therapy.  It is also possible that the psych will mix up facts, quantity of lies coming in, and make a more significant error.  The psych industry labels more people, and fixes fewer than many other medical fields.  Finally, even a moderate, clear BPD standards person, can often be diagnosed with a lesser "anxiety," etc. diagnosis; as BPD and insurance payments do not mix well.  All in all, based on my experience I do not recommend participating in one, but depending on your jurisdiction's attitude you might have to.

One of those surveys offered seemed difficult in that I seem to want to give a sentence, not a 5 point agreement, some sentences seemed to fail to capture my feelings on the topic.  They seem to offer a lot of questions to average out your answers, if I was given any more questions they might have found me asleep at the pen, it got old filling ovals.

In my case the BPD'w came out validated that she was fine, and continued to commit significant offenses with impuny, holding the psych report as a label of non-BPD.  Her life did not improve, she is BPD, and still lacks the tools to survive in a family or career.  Ahh, normal people just live their lives, it's not a game of minefield, and statements of denial.

Yeah, this is why you want objective psych evals - MMPI-2 or equivalent - not just interviews.

I'm not at all sure that most psychologists, without objective evaluations, can or will diagnose BPD correctly, for the reasons Unleashed suggests... .

[scraps66]

Fairly certain even a skilled, reputable Dr. would not diagnose BPD with just the MMPI.  Most would say, "I need to do more testing," or collect more data I think that's what the guy that evaluated me said.

[Matt]

Fairly certain even a skilled, reputable Dr. would not diagnose BPD with just the MMPI.  Most would say, "I need to do more testing," or collect more data I think that's what the guy that evaluated me said.

Our Custody Evaluator was appointed by the court, with agreement from both attorneys.  He had many years experience doing these evaluations, and was very thorough and unbiased as far as I could tell.

He administered the MMPI-2, talked with both parents and both kids at length, talked with several other people we both suggested, talked with our Marriage Counselor and my counselor, and visited both homes to observe the kids with each parent.  He then diagnosed both of us - me with no disorders but a "higher than average risk for substance abuse", and my wife with "multiple psychological disorders" including BPD.

I think this is how it is supposed to work.  Diagnosing without any objective testing is fairly common but not scientifically valid.  A Ph.D. psychologist with MMPI-2 results is fully qualified to diagnose;  it's the best scenario.

In fact the bigger problem I see is that many Custody Evaluators don't do objective testing and don't make diagnoses.  I would suggest, in many cases, filing a motion with the court to request exactly that - a qualified Ph.D. psychologist and the MMPI-2, so both parents can be diagnosed.

If the other parent has BPD or another psych disorder, I think it's usually best to get that out on the table - it's the closest thing to an objective fact you can get that deals with psychological disorders.  Otherwise the court is unlikely to take BPD or another psych disorder into account.

[non_stuck]

I have been treated for anxiety and depression since childhood.  At 16, I was given the full panel psych tests.  Among the test was the MMPI. It goes on and on. The person who posted earlier is telling the truth. It can't be tricked. Even if you learn unwelcome news about yourself, embrace it. You will have insight,and a starting point. It will also confirm if your ex has a personality disorder, and at least give an answer.  That is not to say that the test subject will embrace any truth about them self. In the words of a dear friend's late father "Just show up and tel the truth."  I have adopted that  as my motto.

[scraps66]

There is some constructive good that can also come out of the psych eval.  For me it was the validation that I was feeling badly about my relationship with my now S10.  So I wasn't crazy for feeling that way already!

In fact the bigger problem I see is that many Custody Evaluators don't do objective testing and don't make diagnoses.  I would suggest, in many cases, filing a motion with the court to request exactly that - a qualified Ph.D. psychologist and the MMPI-2, so both parents can be diagnosed.

This is an important caveat.  The Order should specify, at a minimum, that the MMPI-2 is performed, what Dr. should administer the test, that a report is issued and a brief reason for the psych eval.  My Dr. Asked for these reasons and others I asked to do the eval asked the same questions.  Another note might be, "Administering Dr. should administer any other tests necessary to corroborate the psychological evaluation for the purposes of supporting a custody determination," or something to this effect.  Often there are additional tests given to supplement and support the MMPI-2 results.

I would not leave it to chance that the Order will be written properly, I would make my L recite this in court so everyone hears it and it gets transcribed. 

[ogopogodude]

This is a little late advice for my input (as your court ordered psych eval is come and gone) but you originally asked how you can prepare for such a test. It is simple ... .

On those scales they request: " Strongly agree--agree--kinda/sorta agree--neutral--kinda/sorta disagree--disagree--Strongy disagree"

This is how such test is evaluated:  A normal person does not and should not use the extreme poles east or west.   Never, ... .NEVER say STRONGLY disagree or agree.  A BPD chooses extreme east or west... .with no grey area inbetween.  Always choose an answer somewhere in the middle (somewhat agree or somewhat disagree).

The consistent choosing of extreme pole decisions is considered being a nazi.    

[livednlearned]

This is a little late advice for my input (as your court ordered psych eval is come and gone) but you originally asked how you can prepare for such a test. It is simple ... .

On those scales they request: " Strongly agree--agree--kinda/sorta agree--neutral--kinda/sorta disagree--disagree--Strongy disagree"

This is how such test is evaluated:  A normal person does not and should not use the extreme poles east or west.   Never, ... .NEVER say STRONGLY disagree or agree.  A BPD chooses extreme east or west... .with no grey area inbetween.  Always choose an answer somewhere in the middle (somewhat agree or somewhat disagree).

The consistent choosing of extreme pole decisions is considered being a nazi.    

Did you take the MMPI-2, ogo? And if so, what was the outcome? Also -- who gave you this advice?

[Matt]

This is a little late advice for my input (as your court ordered psych eval is come and gone) but you originally asked how you can prepare for such a test. It is simple ... .

On those scales they request: " Strongly agree--agree--kinda/sorta agree--neutral--kinda/sorta disagree--disagree--Strongy disagree"

This is how such test is evaluated:  A normal person does not and should not use the extreme poles east or west.   Never, ... .NEVER say STRONGLY disagree or agree.  A BPD chooses extreme east or west... .with no grey area inbetween.  Always choose an answer somewhere in the middle (somewhat agree or somewhat disagree).

The consistent choosing of extreme pole decisions is considered being a nazi.    

I think if you give lots of extreme answers, that won't look good, but there may be some items where your truth is the most extreme answer available, and that's probably OK.

I took the MMPI-2, and I had been advised to just answer honestly - no attempt to "spin" the test.  My results weren't "perfect" - the test showed that I am at a high risk for addiction, which I had not been aware of - but it didn't show any disorders.  In fact, by taking the test willingly, and then talking with the psychologist, and asking his advice about the results - he said "Just keep doing what you're doing." - and following that advice, it worked to my advantage.

I know two people - my ex being one - who have tried to out-smart the MMPI-2.  It hurt them both.  Best to answer each item honestly and then deal openly with the results.

[ogopogodude]

no,... I did not take that particular test or any psych test (yet).  But I actually would want to ... .  In Canada, we do not have any such test (that I know of) nor is any test ever demanded and carried out by any Judge or Master of the Court (that I know of).  If there is any other Canadian out there that is further down the process than myself please post here.   

All I know is that in our province of BC (we call them that, rather than states)  there is something called a "Section 15" that one of the parties can ask for (which I am demanding occur) as a part of the divorce process when children are involved.  Sometimes this section 15 is imposed upon by the judge (usually upon BOTH parties/plaintiff and defence) if there is a very tumultuous divorce and there has been bizarre behaviour that endangers one's own life (suicidal incidences) or other's lives. This section 15 involves the process of having a psychologist (or even a more expensive psychiatrist i.e. with higher up training)  evaluate both parties to see where they stand from a psych point of view.

Anyways, ... .my earlier post is based (weakly) on the following:  Once in my college years (prior to me obtaining my degree and way before I was married and such) I had taken a funsy-wunsee test in one of my psychology elective classes and  it had a questionnaire  about the topic of parenting (if one did not have a child etc, you had to pretend you had kids) and the test would ask some pretty basic questions such as about curfew, etc.  Whatever the case, I was young and I did not have children at the time.  Anyways, ... .my score turned out that I was a too extreme being on either pole because I would choose STRONGLY agree or disagree (whatever the q happened to be). It was not that I was really strongly opinionated or such but that particular test results indicated that I was,... .  and really I would choose either extreme simply because I thought that choosing "somewhat agree" or "somewhat disagree" as being far too wimpy in decision making.   So I learned from that, meaning that one has to consider grey area and to be flexible, etc.   

Livenlearned, ... .I am not at all the professional in terms of knowledge of psychiatric tests etc. Nor should anyone take any advice from me on anything I post here.  I just know what worked for me.  I am still learning the pattern of unusual behaviour of my spouse and in laws (who also have BPD).

I took your advice on a many things just by reading  your posts as well as other members with high standings (foreverdad, etc) that are moderators, and so on.   One of the most important advice that I got from your postings was that I cannot change my spouse and heal her (even though I know exactly what she has, etc).  I can only alter and be in charge of my own behaviour  and to focus on the kids, ... .NOT my spouse.   

[Matt]

The MMPI-2 isn't a strictly American thing - it's a "science thing" - could be used anywhere, except I don't know if it is given in different languages.

In the US, different courts do things differently.  In some places, it's rare for the courts to ask parents to do psych evals.  Where I live, you need to give some reason - you can't just say you want them - but if you have some sensible reason why, the court can order psych evals, or a Custody Evaluator appointed by the court can decide.

I think it's usually a good strategy to ask that both parties be tested, because then you don't have to show why the other party should be tested but not you.  And you look open and fair, not like you're making up accusations - "She's crazy!" - but you are seeking balanced information for the court to use in making decisions about the kids.

The MMPI-2 has been developed over several decades, by a number of professionals, and it has been administered to lots of people, so it's very well established and proven.  I'm not familiar with other tests - maybe there are other good ones - since the MMPI-2 was recommended by our Custody Evaluator.  My approach was to say OK and take it the next day.  My wife stalled until her lawyer told her "You better take it."  Then when her results showed serious problems, she denied it and didn't make the recommended changes (therapy etc.).  So it was easy for the Custody Evaluator and the judge to see who was doing what was best for the kids and who wasn't... .

[ogopogodude]

In my case, it is very easy to ask for (and get) a psych eval implemented as my BPD wife is always going on and on about suicide, or burning other peoples houses down, or driving while impaired, etc.  In other words, it a no-brainer.  She will have to undergo a Section 15 whether she likes it or not, ... or settle the divorce out of court.

By the way, what exactly is a MMPI-2? What do the letters, etc it stand for?

[Matt]

Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Index.

It's a test with hundreds of short items - no right or wrong - takes a couple of hours to do.

Then the computer looks for patterns in your responses, and compares those patterns with thousands of other people who have taken the test, to see where you fall within a normal range, and where your patterns are unusual.  There's no single item that leads to a specific consclusion, so there is no real way to guess what responses are best, without knowing the responses of thousands of other people who have taken the test.  If you try to fool the test, that will show up;  my wife's results included "Presented falsely" which means her responses indicated she wasn't answering the questions honestly.

If you go at it with a positive attitude, and don't try to fool the test, it's no big deal.

[livednlearned]

I don't think the MMPI-2 even has a Likert scale -- it's true/false. I haven't taken the test, just did some research when I filed a motion to have my ex take one, and you can't find a copy online. But I don't believe you even answer on a scale from 1-5.

There are 10 scales in the MMPI-2, and 3 or 4 additional ones that have to do with "validity." So like Matt says, it's important to answer honestly because the test has been around for 50 years and they have a good sense of what kinds of answer patterns suggest "presenting falsely" and "random answering" as well as (strangely) people who want to make it look like they have a mental illness.

The 10 scales are for different kinds of issues, and while they aren't supposed to be associated with labels, people tend to treat them that way. For example, one scale is considered "depressive" and one is "gender identity" and one is "hypochondria." The tests aren't supposed to be used in isolation -- meaning, no decent forensic psychiatrist should ever just administer the test without meeting with you and asking other questions to provide context. The 10 scales are distributed throughout the MMPI-2, and often they will ask the same question in 4 or 5 ways to make sure that the answer is consistent. So it's hard to fake even if you tried.

From what I can also tell, different courts have different opinions about the MMPI-2. Like all psychometric scales, if experts don't know what they're doing, they can really mess things up. It's good to find out if your court has a stance about the eval so you don't spend a lot of money only to find that the judge doesn't find it to be persuasive.

And if you do file a motion for a psych eval, be specific. I asked twice -- the first time was a lame report. Fortunately, the psychiatrist was perceptive and seemed to catch on. But the report is not "objective" like the MMPI-2 and there was no formal diagnosis (which it turns out I didn't need). The second time I was specific that I wanted the MMPI-2, but N/BPDx has refused to take it. I think it freaks him out too much.

One thing I also learned is that a the forensic psychiatrists who do these tests tend to end up in litigation more than their colleagues , which might explain why the reports are reticent to come outright and diagnose someone.

[Matt]

I took it in 2007 and I remember some things about it, but not whether the questions just had two options or were on a scale from "Strongly agree" to "Strongly disagree".  Not to worry - it's clear and you just follow the directions - you don't need to "prepare".  (And I'm a big believer in preparing for stuff that is important, and the MMPI-2 is important, but it's not something you can prepare for.)

I think LnL's point about "objectivity" is important.  A "psych eval" can mean that a psychologist talks with you for twenty minutes and writes a report that says, "I cannot diagnose any disorders in Mr. Matt.", which does no good.  Or a "psych eval" can be based on objective testing, which enables a very meaningful diagnosis.

In my wife's case, the psychologist had three things to go on:  First, his own observations from talking with her;  and inputs from me and others - I told him very openly about her behaviors and that was backed up with other inputs;  and objective testing.  When all three of these line up, he can be confident in making a diagnosis, which he did, and that becomes a solid part of the picture;  if we had gone to trial, he would have testified, and it would have helped me a lot.

So, yeah - ask for psych evals for both parties, based on objective testing like the MMPI-2.