How come she never apologized to my face?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Those are some serious red flags paper.

Mine would say that she needed so see someone after a rage and recycle... .I would assuage her by telling her that we would perfect our relationship together and then the entire matter was swept under the rug never to be mentioned ever again. Not that it was taboo; i suspect that she felt that she had it cleared through me in some way.

I wonder if I would still be together with her IF I demanded that she begin to see a therapist.

Oh, there were red flags from the very beginning, man. I was just too inexperienced to realize them (I was 21 and she was my first relationship). The first time we met, she invited me over to her dad's place and we just chilled in her room for a few hours. She showed me pictures of all three of her ex-boyfriends.  

Hell, just a couple weeks ago when I went over to her place after not seeing her in over a year, she showed me pictures of the guys she's been with after me. I said, "Why are you showing me this? I don't care." And she said, "Oh, I just thought you might be curious."  

Getting them to stick to therapy is very difficult. Even if my ex was in therapy, I would always be just waiting for that moment for her to quit.

Holy Cow! Why in the world would she be showing you photos of her new BF's? Its totally inappropriate and goes to show you how little concept she has of your feelings.

I... .honestly don't know. She's really weird. She even asked me that night out of the blue while we were playing video games, ":)o you think I am weird?" I felt like saying, "No, you're just very sick." I took the politically correct approach though and just said we are all weird in our own way.

Another thing she didn't consider that night in regards to my feelings was when we were on her laptop. I don't know how familiar you are with my story, JRT, but two years ago she had an online affair with a man twice her age who lived very, very far away. She said something along the lines of, "Check out all of these old pictures I had sent him back then. He emailed them to me not long ago." A lot of them were nude photos of her or pictures taken during our outings together of random stuff.  

Maybe she thought since over a year had past and that I've been with different women since then, I wouldn't care. I don't know. Still bugged me.

[paperlung]

Those are some serious red flags paper.

Mine would say that she needed so see someone after a rage and recycle... .I would assuage her by telling her that we would perfect our relationship together and then the entire matter was swept under the rug never to be mentioned ever again. Not that it was taboo; i suspect that she felt that she had it cleared through me in some way.

I wonder if I would still be together with her IF I demanded that she begin to see a therapist.

Oh, there were red flags from the very beginning, man. I was just too inexperienced to realize them (I was 21 and she was my first relationship). The first time we met, she invited me over to her dad's place and we just chilled in her room for a few hours. She showed me pictures of all three of her ex-boyfriends.  

Hell, just a couple weeks ago when I went over to her place after not seeing her in over a year, she showed me pictures of the guys she's been with after me. I said, "Why are you showing me this? I don't care." And she said, "Oh, I just thought you might be curious."  

Getting them to stick to therapy is very difficult. Even if my ex was in therapy, I would always be just waiting for that moment for her to quit.

Holy Cow! Why in the world would she be showing you photos of her new BF's? Its totally inappropriate and goes to show you how little concept she has of your feelings.

I... .honestly don't know. She's really weird. She even asked me that night out of the blue while we were playing video games, ":)o you think I am weird?" I felt like saying, "No, you're just very sick." I took the politically correct approach though and just said we are all weird in our own way.

Another thing she didn't consider that night in regards to my feelings was when we were on her laptop. I don't know how familiar you are with my story, JRT, but two years ago she had an online affair with a man twice her age who lived very, very far away. She said something along the lines of, "Check out all of these old pictures I had sent him back then. He emailed them to me not long ago." A lot of them were nude photos of her or pictures taken during our outings together of random stuff.  

Maybe she thought since over a year had past and that I've been with different women since then, I wouldn't care. I don't know. Still bugged me.

[JRT]

Those are some serious red flags paper.

Mine would say that she needed so see someone after a rage and recycle... .I would assuage her by telling her that we would perfect our relationship together and then the entire matter was swept under the rug never to be mentioned ever again. Not that it was taboo; i suspect that she felt that she had it cleared through me in some way.

I wonder if I would still be together with her IF I demanded that she begin to see a therapist.

Oh, there were red flags from the very beginning, man. I was just too inexperienced to realize them (I was 21 and she was my first relationship). The first time we met, she invited me over to her dad's place and we just chilled in her room for a few hours. She showed me pictures of all three of her ex-boyfriends.   

Hell, just a couple weeks ago when I went over to her place after not seeing her in over a year, she showed me pictures of the guys she's been with after me. I said, "Why are you showing me this? I don't care." And she said, "Oh, I just thought you might be curious."   

Getting them to stick to therapy is very difficult. Even if my ex was in therapy, I would always be just waiting for that moment for her to quit.

Their level of self-involvement and total lack of any kind of empathy never ceases to amaze me. This is a sign of serious metal illness, no?

[/quot

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Sure is!

[JRT]

Those are some serious red flags paper.

Mine would say that she needed so see someone after a rage and recycle... .I would assuage her by telling her that we would perfect our relationship together and then the entire matter was swept under the rug never to be mentioned ever again. Not that it was taboo; i suspect that she felt that she had it cleared through me in some way.

I wonder if I would still be together with her IF I demanded that she begin to see a therapist.

Oh, there were red flags from the very beginning, man. I was just too inexperienced to realize them (I was 21 and she was my first relationship). The first time we met, she invited me over to her dad's place and we just chilled in her room for a few hours. She showed me pictures of all three of her ex-boyfriends.  

Hell, just a couple weeks ago when I went over to her place after not seeing her in over a year, she showed me pictures of the guys she's been with after me. I said, "Why are you showing me this? I don't care." And she said, "Oh, I just thought you might be curious."  

Getting them to stick to therapy is very difficult. Even if my ex was in therapy, I would always be just waiting for that moment for her to quit.

Holy Cow! Why in the world would she be showing you photos of her new BF's? Its totally inappropriate and goes to show you how little concept she has of your feelings.

I... .honestly don't know. She's really weird. She even asked me that night out of the blue while we were playing video games, ":)o you think I am weird?" I felt like saying, "No, you're just very sick." I took the politically correct approach though and just said we are all weird in our own way.

Another thing she didn't consider that night in regards to my feelings was when we were on her laptop. I don't know how familiar you are with my story, JRT, but two years ago she had an online affair with a man twice her age who lived very, very far away. She said something along the lines of, "Check out all of these old pictures I had sent him back then. He emailed them to me not long ago." A lot of them were nude photos of her or pictures taken during our outings together of random stuff.  

Maybe she thought since over a year had past and that I've been with different women since then, I wouldn't care. I don't know. Still bugged me.

I am by no means a BPD expert, but inj all of the reading that I have done in the past 3 months, I have never come across anything that has much to say about the  naked photos and such. Though, I have read that its sometimes the case that a BPD has this and also that... .I wonder if there is something else going on with her.

[fromheeltoheal]

Regarding healing and growing, you mention you didn't bring anything up when you were together either.  It's clearly weighing on you, you're talking to us about it, and do you think leveling with her and being emotionally vulnerable when you were together would have taken the conversation in a deeper direction?  :)o you think you have anything to apologize for?  I realize after the damage done by being with someone with a personality disorder we want to and should protect ourselves, but how good was the communication when you were in it?

I was very open and honest initially with my ex, but as time went on I said less and less, since she wouldn't, or couldn't meet me there and just blamed me for everything, but I now realize that my saying less made her trust me less, which triggered her abandonment fears even more.  I don't owe her an apology, I didn't do anything I regret before I left, and I don't owe her an apology for leaving, but it takes two to tango, and it's helpful to look at our part as we heal and grow.

[Infared]

- Ex cheated on me, we break up, and I go NC for 1 year.

- 3 months into NC she sends my an apology letter. It sounded very sincere. I did not respond, but it gave me some closure.

- I break NC after a year begin LC via text with her. She tells me more about how bad she feels about what she did to me, ect.

- December 2014 she moves back to my area we walk on the phone (first time in over a year). I sort of emotionally unload on her, reminding her how awful she treated towards the end of our relationship.

- She cries and says she's sorry some more.

- I decide to meet her like 2 weeks later for 30 minutes (we walk my dog) and neither of us bring up what happened in the past. She doesn't say sorry or appear remorseful. Keep in mind we hadn't seen each other in over a year.

- I see her again a week later; went to visit her place. Again, no apology or sign of empathy for what she did to me in the past.

Is this normal? Could she just may have not wanted to sound like a broken record? A real genuine face-to-face apology would have meant a lot to me, but I never got one.

I was thinking that her apologies were covered on the earlier telephone calls. If that is the case, is any more apologizing necessary?

That's what I was wondering myself. I still would have appreciated an actual face-to-face, look me in the eyes kind of apology. She put me through absolute hell.

Paper lung... I am totally with you... .if you had not seen her in a long time because of her behavior, then I would want s vis-â-vis apology or discussion as well. Basic human need and it would reinforce the sincerity of the person's remorse. Let's face it, pwBPD cause emotional damage. We need reassuring.

At least she didn't disperse the apology in a text.  

R

She did. She sent my an apology email three months out of the relationship. A year of NC, we text and she says she's sorry again and that she feels bad for what she had done to me.

Another thing that kind of bugged me when we met up after two years is how little questions she asked me other than how my family is doing and, of course, how many girls I've hooked up with since we broke up. Nothing like, "Have gone anywhere interesting? Learned anything new? Picked up any new hobbies? Ect." If we weren't reminiscing, it was 90% about her and the drama she had been through over the year after we broke up.

                          

Please notice how she is like a strategist in a battle. She keeps you engaged in HER drama (BTW ... you do not need to listen to that uncaring drama, if it hurts you emotionally), while She is gathering info about your status and how that effects her current status with you. She is not coming from a place of a remorseful, loving adult.

Just take care of you.

[paperlung]

- Ex cheated on me, we break up, and I go NC for 1 year.

- 3 months into NC she sends my an apology letter. It sounded very sincere. I did not respond, but it gave me some closure.

- I break NC after a year begin LC via text with her. She tells me more about how bad she feels about what she did to me, ect.

- December 2014 she moves back to my area we walk on the phone (first time in over a year). I sort of emotionally unload on her, reminding her how awful she treated towards the end of our relationship.

- She cries and says she's sorry some more.

- I decide to meet her like 2 weeks later for 30 minutes (we walk my dog) and neither of us bring up what happened in the past. She doesn't say sorry or appear remorseful. Keep in mind we hadn't seen each other in over a year.

- I see her again a week later; went to visit her place. Again, no apology or sign of empathy for what she did to me in the past.

Is this normal? Could she just may have not wanted to sound like a broken record? A real genuine face-to-face apology would have meant a lot to me, but I never got one.

I was thinking that her apologies were covered on the earlier telephone calls. If that is the case, is any more apologizing necessary?

That's what I was wondering myself. I still would have appreciated an actual face-to-face, look me in the eyes kind of apology. She put me through absolute hell.

Paper lung... I am totally with you... .if you had not seen her in a long time because of her behavior, then I would want s vis-â-vis apology or discussion as well. Basic human need and it would reinforce the sincerity of the person's remorse. Let's face it, pwBPD cause emotional damage. We need reassuring.

At least she didn't disperse the apology in a text.  

R

She did. She sent my an apology email three months out of the relationship. A year of NC, we text and she says she's sorry again and that she feels bad for what she had done to me.

Another thing that kind of bugged me when we met up after two years is how little questions she asked me other than how my family is doing and, of course, how many girls I've hooked up with since we broke up. Nothing like, "Have gone anywhere interesting? Learned anything new? Picked up any new hobbies? Ect." If we weren't reminiscing, it was 90% about her and the drama she had been through over the year after we broke up.

                          

Please notice how she is like a strategist in a battle. She keeps you engaged in HER drama (BTW ... you do not need to listen to that uncaring drama, if it hurts you emotionally), while She is gathering info about your status and how that effects her current status with you. She is not coming from a place of a remorseful, loving adult.

Just take care of you.

Thanks, and I am. I haven't spoken to her in a week (I emailed her telling her I didn't want to talk to or see her anymore). I didn't like what I saw or heard from her. She's a very damaged individual.

[Infared]

- Ex cheated on me, we break up, and I go NC for 1 year.

- 3 months into NC she sends my an apology letter. It sounded very sincere. I did not respond, but it gave me some closure.

- I break NC after a year begin LC via text with her. She tells me more about how bad she feels about what she did to me, ect.

- December 2014 she moves back to my area we walk on the phone (first time in over a year). I sort of emotionally unload on her, reminding her how awful she treated towards the end of our relationship.

- She cries and says she's sorry some more.

- I decide to meet her like 2 weeks later for 30 minutes (we walk my dog) and neither of us bring up what happened in the past. She doesn't say sorry or appear remorseful. Keep in mind we hadn't seen each other in over a year.

- I see her again a week later; went to visit her place. Again, no apology or sign of empathy for what she did to me in the past.

Is this normal? Could she just may have not wanted to sound like a broken record? A real genuine face-to-face apology would have meant a lot to me, but I never got one.

I was thinking that her apologies were covered on the earlier telephone calls. If that is the case, is any more apologizing necessary?

That's what I was wondering myself. I still would have appreciated an actual face-to-face, look me in the eyes kind of apology. She put me through absolute hell.

Paper lung... I am totally with you... .if you had not seen her in a long time because of her behavior, then I would want s vis-â-vis apology or discussion as well. Basic human need and it would reinforce the sincerity of the person's remorse. Let's face it, pwBPD cause emotional damage. We need reassuring.

At least she didn't disperse the apology in a text.  

R

She did. She sent my an apology email three months out of the relationship. A year of NC, we text and she says she's sorry again and that she feels bad for what she had done to me.

Another thing that kind of bugged me when we met up after two years is how little questions she asked me other than how my family is doing and, of course, how many girls I've hooked up with since we broke up. Nothing like, "Have gone anywhere interesting? Learned anything new? Picked up any new hobbies? Ect." If we weren't reminiscing, it was 90% about her and the drama she had been through over the year after we broke up.

                          

Please notice how she is like a strategist in a battle. She keeps you engaged in HER drama (BTW ... you do not need to listen to that uncaring drama, if it hurts you emotionally), while She is gathering info about your status and how that effects her current status with you. She is not coming from a place of a remorseful, loving adult.

Just take care of you.

Thanks, and I am. I haven't spoken to her in a week (I emailed her telling her I didn't want to talk to or see her anymore). I didn't like what I saw or heard from her. She's a very damaged individual.

Glad to here... it's good to have some empathy in your heart, but you are doing the right thing taking care of you. She sounds like she has no boundaries and you are forming/enforcing very healthy ones. Good for you!

[Ripped Heart]

Ripped... .you made me think of my ex and apologies... .I recall the only time that she had apologized for anything, ever. It was an accident but she knocked my expensive camera off of a bartop and crashing to the floor. It destroyed a component and I was not happy. Even though it was an accident, it was a bit careless and caused damaged. Even though I didn't abuse her and just told her to be more careful, she defended herself pretty ardently. It was only after 10 minutes or so that she offered me a sincere apology... .it seemed like it was the toughest thing she ever had to do. Is that a BPD thing? 

I don't know if it's completely a BPD thing as I know many non's who have issues apologising for things too. I know BPDgf does apologise but finds it extremely difficult but exN/BPDw would never apologise for anything. She always found a way to turn it back on you and it being your fault. So in the case of your camera, she would have made it your fault for putting in a place where it could be knocked over. Then when you show you are unhappy, she would rage at your reaction because had you not been incompetent, she wouldn't have knocked it over in the first place, therefore it was your responsibility to apologise to her for being annoyed in the first place. It was that reaction to everything that would drive me insane. No matter what she did, it was always your fault regardless.

I do see glimpses of that with BPDgf, but she does at least feel bad about things even when you respond with "It's ok, accidents can happen", I sometimes feel that the apology isn't so much for us but to stop their own bad feelings so it can come across as insincere. It's kind of like they aren't sorry that we are hurt or upset about something, they are sorry because they are feeling bad and want that feeling to stop.

[parisian]

paperlung, it's very very difficult for them to apologize. Not impossible - mine said sorry once during a 2 year relationship, but there was no apology at the end. Her position was that she could not change. I was thinking she was a 'normal, healthy adult. And normal, healthy adults can have reasonable conversations about how they feel, and if one person is doing something that is upsetting the other. BPDs cannot have those conversations. If you try, then you are upsetting them for raising those issues.

In their minds, they are simply acting out how THEY feel.

They don't have empathy because their own feelings are too overwhelming so it's impossible for them to try and think about how someone else feels. They can't understand our hurt. They can't understand how their behaviour impacts on us.

it was your responsibility to apologise to her for being annoyed in the first place. It was that reaction to everything that would drive me insane. No matter what she did, it was always your fault regardless.

Same here. Regardless of what she did, I would always be the one apologizing for raising my concerns with her behaviour. It's crazy making.

[Infared]

paperlung, it's very very difficult for them to apologize. Not impossible - mine said sorry once during a 2 year relationship, but there was no apology at the end. Her position was that she could not change. I was thinking she was a 'normal, healthy adult. And normal, healthy adults can have reasonable conversations about how they feel, and if one person is doing something that is upsetting the other. BPDs cannot have those conversations. If you try, then you are upsetting them for raising those issues.

In their minds, they are simply acting out how THEY feel.

They don't have empathy because their own feelings are too overwhelming so it's impossible for them to try and think about how someone else feels. They can't understand our hurt. They can't understand how their behaviour impacts on us.

it was your responsibility to apologise to her for being annoyed in the first place. It was that reaction to everything that would drive me insane. No matter what she did, it was always your fault regardless.

Same here. Regardless of what she did, I would always be the one apologizing for raising my concerns with her behaviour. It's crazy making.

That sounds like outright manipulation to me. Mine was extremely cunning at manipulating situation to her favor. No love... .just games.

[Trog]

She obviously wants you back in her life and she was willing to say anything to accomplish that. Do they really feel remorse? From my own experience with my BPD they honestly can't. In their minds, they are not at fault for their own behavior, therefore they didn't do anything wrong. At least that is how my ex explained it.

Their reality is not the same as our reality.

Nothing is ever their fault! They may the noises but sad to say, they're faking it... To get you back on the hook.

[JRT]

Ripped... .you made me think of my ex and apologies... .I recall the only time that she had apologized for anything, ever. It was an accident but she knocked my expensive camera off of a bartop and crashing to the floor. It destroyed a component and I was not happy. Even though it was an accident, it was a bit careless and caused damaged. Even though I didn't abuse her and just told her to be more careful, she defended herself pretty ardently. It was only after 10 minutes or so that she offered me a sincere apology... .it seemed like it was the toughest thing she ever had to do. Is that a BPD thing? 

I don't know if it's completely a BPD thing as I know many non's who have issues apologising for things too. I know BPDgf does apologise but finds it extremely difficult but exN/BPDw would never apologise for anything. She always found a way to turn it back on you and it being your fault. So in the case of your camera, she would have made it your fault for putting in a place where it could be knocked over. Then when you show you are unhappy, she would rage at your reaction because had you not been incompetent, she wouldn't have knocked it over in the first place, therefore it was your responsibility to apologise to her for being annoyed in the first place. It was that reaction to everything that would drive me insane. No matter what she did, it was always your fault regardless.

I do see glimpses of that with BPDgf, but she does at least feel bad about things even when you respond with "It's ok, accidents can happen", I sometimes feel that the apology isn't so much for us but to stop their own bad feelings so it can come across as insincere. It's kind of like they aren't sorry that we are hurt or upset about something, they are sorry because they are feeling bad and want that feeling to stop.

Well as you would guess, she was always the victim. Bad things that were big and small, were always someone else s fault. But with this incident, I saw something unusual. She struggled with it, awkwardly deflecting blame at first, THEN after contemplation then an awkward apology. VERY awkward. Although she never really mentioned it, or her thought process about it, it is almost that she overcame her inability to accept responsibility and blame right before my eyes.

Mine was a waif, and not altogether a horrible relationship. Matter of fact, it was a good one. But I saw problems like this one gurgle underneath the surface. It was just a matter of time... .

[paperlung]

Wait, so all the times she told me through email/text that she feels awful/terrible/empathy/regret for what she did to me wasn't at all genuine?

[JRT]

I wish that I could answer that... .possibly yes, possibly no. I think that it depends upon the person and what 'state' they were in when they said it. This is something that I am struggling with as well: was it all real or fake? Did she say the things she said only because they were functional OR that they felt like love or FELT like an apology... .