Ended up in a hotel in a strange city last night

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

 

Is this story getting long... .or what... ?

So... .i'll give the final backstory of the night... .and then tie that in to dogs in general.

So... .we show up and get in house.  Dogs start barking... .there are two in house... and one outside. 

Big muscular dog is in house... .dog is freaked out.  Sister is yelling at her kid about what the kid needs to do to get the dog to go out.  My wife starts yelling instructions at sister.

Yelling is this case... .was about half volume... .of later in the night. 

Dog gets more freaked out...   My wife yells at kids to get away from dog... .kids... .of course... .don't listen.  Wife yells louder.

Sister reaches for dog and dog makes big... .obvious snap at her hand.  Everyone gasped.  Wife yells at sister... .that dog just snapped at her... .sister (in same tone my wife uses on me... .) is very dismissive... .he was snapping at food... .she just does that... it's no big deal.  JADE JADE JADE... .  The vet thinks the dog is retarded... .how stupid is this... .dog is like 70 years old in dog years...

Back door gets opened... .another dog runs in... .this dog finally gets out the door.  Wife starts getting onboard with sisters story about the dog. 

I saw it... .dog was clearly displaying threatening behavior to the owner... .the dog was in charge.  Had the hand not been moved... .multiple stitches would have been needed. 

I considered trying to end or modify the visit right there.  Kind of gave my wife a look... .tried to talk to her... .got shut down quick.  I decided to keep my mouth shut... .      

About 3 hours later... .the little tiny "teacup" sized dog... .did whatever she did to 6 year old.

Like a bad infomercial... ."but wait... there's more"

Last spring... .before the spanking incident... .came one of several "dog incidents."  The two dogs that lived in our house... .on the farm... .were not trained very well... despite promises and deals that wife and kids would do it. 

There were some efforts... .but ineffectual.  My complaints of dealbreaking were dismissed.

We moved off farm.  Dogs were kept at my parents house who had fenced yard.  Dogs were issue over there... .but that was best solution until proper training could be done.

One day... one dog got sick... .and I suggested that we bring them over to house... .just that one dog... .for a couple days of monitoring.  The dog was elderly... .and we agreed would not last another year.  Part of the monitoring was to determine if it was time to put dog down.

I go to work... .wife and daughter (oldest... same one my wife and I "disagree over" cooked up a plan to bring both dogs over.  I show up home... and notice as I walk up that the inside of one of our cars is a wreck... hair everywhere... .stuff torn up inside.    I walk in house and both dogs are there. 

I ask what happened... wife explains that she and daughter changed deal... .I express that I am not ok with it... .and that the situation is dangerous.  The dismissive voice shows up... .it's not a big deal.  What about the car being torn up... "it's not a big deal... .she tells me I need to calm down (note... I'm calm... .but asking questions)... .and being crystal clear that what they have done is dangerous.

I made some attempts to remove a dog back to my parents... .and a 911 call ensued.  No action taken... my wife called in to report me for removing the dog.  Very unwisely... .very very very... .unwisely... .I backed down upon promises to train dog and keep dog in crate.

A couple days later... .in the bedroom next to the one where the whipping happened... .a dog fight broke out.  Both dogs were out of kennel (I don't know how)... .dogs sound like they are killing each other... .kids are screaming.  Worse is I hear one of my kids saying that a dog "has" FF daughter (3rd youngest)... .3 years old at the time.  I am running through the house to get to them... .

I separate dogs... luckily it appears that the dogs were fighting each other... .and kid got in middle.  She was not the target... .but was bit and scratched anyway.  Blood... .but not to point of stitches.

Wife is shaking... .kids are shaking... .dogs get kenneled.  Wife starts trying to defend dog... .it was obvious who the aggressor was. 

I simply said... .you know that is not going to work.  Our path is clear... .we have no choice.  I don't remember if it was same day... .or next day.  That I managed to get my wife in front of the vet... .who is also a family friend.  He was stern... equivocal... .resolute... .that the dog must be put down.

He told a story about his dad... .who was also a vet... .that put down a beloved family pet after a similar incident.

Over and over the vet repeated... .they are animals... .your daughter is a human... .do not get that confused.  That animal could have killed your daughter.  My wife finally agreed to put the dog down.  It was sad. 

My point to this story... .and these stories... is that there is a long history (which I will not repeat in the future) of dangerous "decision making" around dogs... with my wife... .and apparently now her sister.

My wife beat me up repeatedly that I agreed to get the dog (s)... .so I couldn't change my mind.  I have been clear that the deal was "broken"... .and I have also been clear that I give no further consent to bringing in future dogs... .

I've also been clear that the current dog that is at our house... .but now lives outdoors... .has no second chances.  Any child that gets hurt... .will result in the dog being gone (dead).  I won't ask her... .I won't wait... .there will be no understanding of "why" the dog did anything.  She doesn't agree with this... .but heard it loud and clear.

She doesn't like this... .but also realizes that she is the "odd woman out"... .as she has asked other vets and "dog people" and found no support for her position.

I suspect she realizes that it is unlikely we ever get a dog again... .assuming this one lives to a happy old age and passes away.

How is that for a crappy situation... .and backstory... .to what happened last night... ?

I'm worn out typing it... .I'm sure you guys are tired of reading it.

[formflier]

 

Is this story getting long... .or what... ?

So... .i'll give the final backstory of the night... .and then tie that in to dogs in general.

So... .we show up and get in house.  Dogs start barking... .there are two in house... and one outside. 

Big muscular dog is in house... .dog is freaked out.  Sister is yelling at her kid about what the kid needs to do to get the dog to go out.  My wife starts yelling instructions at sister.

Yelling is this case... .was about half volume... .of later in the night. 

Dog gets more freaked out...   My wife yells at kids to get away from dog... .kids... .of course... .don't listen.  Wife yells louder.

Sister reaches for dog and dog makes big... .obvious snap at her hand.  Everyone gasped.  Wife yells at sister... .that dog just snapped at her... .sister (in same tone my wife uses on me... .) is very dismissive... .he was snapping at food... .she just does that... it's no big deal.  JADE JADE JADE... .  The vet thinks the dog is retarded... .how stupid is this... .dog is like 70 years old in dog years...

Back door gets opened... .another dog runs in... .this dog finally gets out the door.  Wife starts getting onboard with sisters story about the dog. 

I saw it... .dog was clearly displaying threatening behavior to the owner... .the dog was in charge.  Had the hand not been moved... .multiple stitches would have been needed. 

I considered trying to end or modify the visit right there.  Kind of gave my wife a look... .tried to talk to her... .got shut down quick.  I decided to keep my mouth shut... .      

About 3 hours later... .the little tiny "teacup" sized dog... .did whatever she did to 6 year old.

Like a bad infomercial... ."but wait... there's more"

Last spring... .before the spanking incident... .came one of several "dog incidents."  The two dogs that lived in our house... .on the farm... .were not trained very well... despite promises and deals that wife and kids would do it. 

There were some efforts... .but ineffectual.  My complaints of dealbreaking were dismissed.

We moved off farm.  Dogs were kept at my parents house who had fenced yard.  Dogs were issue over there... .but that was best solution until proper training could be done.

One day... one dog got sick... .and I suggested that we bring them over to house... .just that one dog... .for a couple days of monitoring.  The dog was elderly... .and we agreed would not last another year.  Part of the monitoring was to determine if it was time to put dog down.

I go to work... .wife and daughter (oldest... same one my wife and I "disagree over" cooked up a plan to bring both dogs over.  I show up home... and notice as I walk up that the inside of one of our cars is a wreck... hair everywhere... .stuff torn up inside.    I walk in house and both dogs are there. 

I ask what happened... wife explains that she and daughter changed deal... .I express that I am not ok with it... .and that the situation is dangerous.  The dismissive voice shows up... .it's not a big deal.  What about the car being torn up... "it's not a big deal... .she tells me I need to calm down (note... I'm calm... .but asking questions)... .and being crystal clear that what they have done is dangerous.

I made some attempts to remove a dog back to my parents... .and a 911 call ensued.  No action taken... my wife called in to report me for removing the dog.  Very unwisely... .very very very... .unwisely... .I backed down upon promises to train dog and keep dog in crate.

A couple days later... .in the bedroom next to the one where the whipping happened... .a dog fight broke out.  Both dogs were out of kennel (I don't know how)... .dogs sound like they are killing each other... .kids are screaming.  Worse is I hear one of my kids saying that a dog "has" FF daughter (3rd youngest)... .3 years old at the time.  I am running through the house to get to them... .

I separate dogs... luckily it appears that the dogs were fighting each other... .and kid got in middle.  She was not the target... .but was bit and scratched anyway.  Blood... .but not to point of stitches.

Wife is shaking... .kids are shaking... .dogs get kenneled.  Wife starts trying to defend dog... .it was obvious who the aggressor was. 

I simply said... .you know that is not going to work.  Our path is clear... .we have no choice.  I don't remember if it was same day... .or next day.  That I managed to get my wife in front of the vet... .who is also a family friend.  He was stern... equivocal... .resolute... .that the dog must be put down.

He told a story about his dad... .who was also a vet... .that put down a beloved family pet after a similar incident.

Over and over the vet repeated... .they are animals... .your daughter is a human... .do not get that confused.  That animal could have killed your daughter.  My wife finally agreed to put the dog down.  It was sad. 

My point to this story... .and these stories... is that there is a long history (which I will not repeat in the future) of dangerous "decision making" around dogs... with my wife... .and apparently now her sister.

My wife beat me up repeatedly that I agreed to get the dog (s)... .so I couldn't change my mind.  I have been clear that the deal was "broken"... .and I have also been clear that I give no further consent to bringing in future dogs... .

I've also been clear that the current dog that is at our house... .but now lives outdoors... .has no second chances.  Any child that gets hurt... .will result in the dog being gone (dead).  I won't ask her... .I won't wait... .there will be no understanding of "why" the dog did anything.  She doesn't agree with this... .but heard it loud and clear.

She doesn't like this... .but also realizes that she is the "odd woman out"... .as she has asked other vets and "dog people" and found no support for her position.

I suspect she realizes that it is unlikely we ever get a dog again... .assuming this one lives to a happy old age and passes away.

How is that for a crappy situation... .and backstory... .to what happened last night... ?

I'm worn out typing it... .I'm sure you guys are tired of reading it.

[Notwendy]

It just sounds like a recipe for disaster- a lot of people and dogs all in one house, the family is chaotic. At least some of them have issues with emotional regulation. Dogs are barking, people are yelling, the dogs are out of control, you have PTSD- which is triggered by loud yelling,but even if you didn't- the stress of all those people and dogs would be hard to take for anyone.

I wouldn't be able to tell whose fault this was or who should have done what. It sounds like so many factors all at once each affecting each other. Maybe it's better to just chalk this up to a lesson on what not to do next time.

I know that I can't stay with my mom 24/7 without triggering her. It's just what it is. If I stay somewhere else we get along better. My H's family is hard to take sometimes too. Sometimes I need to just go get coffee somewhere and chill. Sometimes we stay in a hotel to get some space. Now you know not to show up with hungry kids who need to go potty. Maybe a stop at chuck e cheese where they can jump around before facing family will let them wind down after a trip. These are just ideas- you know your family. Seems to me that everyone was on emotional overload - including the dog.

[Grey Kitty]

Why do you expect her to deal with your concerns instead of her own?

My expectation is that we both get our concerns taken care of.  We are both parents.  we both care about ff kid.  Her concern was not ridiculous.   Sisters desire to have ointment on there was not ridiculous.

[lots more reasonable stuff]

You WANT her to be reasonable, and deal with your concerns. I get that. I even get that you have very good reasons for your concerns, and that you have good reasons to want her to care.

... .

You wrote background to the background to the background already. I'm a little busy, TL:)R and I apologize for that. But even scanning it, you are making the case for me here.

Your wife was stressed on this visit and primed for dysregulation. She had lots of old triggers to be sensitive about. Looking back at it, you *KNOW* there was a lot of crap going on that would keep her from operating at her best. Keep her from operating the way you WANT her to.

Once she starts yelling, you should know by now that she does a really bad job of either listening to you or honoring  your concerns at that point.

Given that you KNOW all this stuff... .why on earth would you expect her to give a rats ass about your concerns at a time like that? I sure wouldn't expect her to!

And recognizing that she is in this sort of mental/emotional state at the time, what are your best tools (the ones here, not the ones from naval aviator school) to address this sort of situation?

[sweetheart]

Cor blimey ff as we say here in the UK that's some back story. It makes sense now that there was a whole pile of antecedents that led up to 'the main event.' When I first read it it didn't make sense that it just seemed to come out of nowhere.

Ff are you able to just take some time out to sit with how you are feeling about all of this rather than rushing to sort it all out straight away. Maybe give yourself a little bit of space to let things lie just for a bit. I appreciate you're a go to sorting out kind of guy, but I can't help but hear reading between the lines that this has been painful and confusing for you. It sounds really upsetting to me.

I wonder if breaking it down in to small prioritised chunks would help you catch your breathe for a bit.

[formflier]

  Maybe give yourself a little bit of space to let things lie just for a bit. 

Yep... .that is my plan.  I took van over to sisters house today... wife drove me back and dropped me off.  We got a sandwhich on way back.  Not much talking.  Barely acknowledged it was nice day out... .it really is.

My current plan... is to not discuss this until Monday morning... .when vet is open... and doctor open at normal time.

I will ask that we see confirmation of rabies shot... .and I need to confirm up to date tetanus and other shots (maybe) on my sons end.

I have no idea about the vet... .or I would do this myself.  But... .I don't see any way to do this without involving my wife and my sister.

I won't start... if I'm not calm.  I need to be prepared for what I will do if they declare me ridiculous and refuse to participate. 

Right now... .I feel relaxed... .hanging out in hotel room... .typing away... .

[formflier]

It just sounds like a recipe for disaster

Agreed... .I saw the red flags... .and grudgingly ignored them and went along with my wifes plan... .if I am honest with myself... .I did this because I did not want to further upset the situation...   I should have exposed myself to this smaller potential upset earlier... .and I most likely would have been in a hotel room... .when/if all of this went down.

- a lot of people and dogs all in one house, the family is chaotic. At least some of them have issues with emotional regulation. Dogs are barking, people are yelling, the dogs are out of control, you have PTSD- which is triggered by loud yelling,but even if you didn't- the stress of all those people and dogs would be hard to take for anyone.

Yep... .I totally agree.

I wouldn't be able to tell whose fault this was or who should have done what. It sounds like so many factors all at once each affecting each other. Maybe it's better to just chalk this up to a lesson on what not to do next time.

I can guarantee you that it's my "fault" for being in that house... .as in it was my decision.  And I can control doing that differently in the future. 

Seems to me that everyone was on emotional overload - including the dog.

I would like to get to the point... .where this is part of the planning process... .that we openly talk about how we can do this without emotional overload.  This discussion has been started in MC... .and I plan to continue it.

Yelling is almost always bad... .how can we do and plan things so we don't yell. 

I'm also not being accepting of any arguments that someone else is responsible for another person yelling... .my wife claims this often... .very frustrating. 

I am trying to be clear with myself that my reactions last night... .were mine... .and I am responsible for managing those... .

Other people should work on their stuff... .but that's not up to me... .

[formflier]

Given that you KNOW all this stuff... .why on earth would you expect her to give a rats ass about your concerns at a time like that? I sure wouldn't expect her to!

Yeah... .I see the point... .and I would follow that line of thinking even more if she had blown off her sister as well.  As in... .if she was protecting ff kid from the world... .and everyone is wrong... .I suspect I could deal with that better.

I don't know how I can express the obviousness of how she followed her sisters urging... .and ignored mine.  I suspect in her min... .it was her and he sister "against" me.

And recognizing that she is in this sort of mental/emotional state at the time, what are your best tools (the ones here, not the ones from naval aviator school) to address this sort of situation?

validate and not "corner" her... .would be my quick answer. 

Tough to do... .because my brain is just not wired that way... .you always... always... .always... .figure out if there is a life safety issue going on first... .and then address more minor concerns in some sort of order.

As I really didn't know what was going on for a while... .and it came out of nowhere... .I dunno... .I just don't know.

I do try to change the wiring... .but this has been "common" issue.  Where my priorities with what I perceive as life safety issues... .or my time spent assessing a situation... .are seen as invalidating or uncaring to her. 

Long list of counselors and others have told us both... .that expecting my thinking to change in those moments... .is not going to happen.  Basically... .when fight or flight shows up. 

Naval aviators have a corollary... .aviate... .navigate... .communicate.    If you "come to"... .and you don't know what is going on... .first... .make sure you are flying... .because if you aren't flying... .you are most likely going to quickly die. 

Then... .worry about where you are... .

Then... .worry about talking to people... .

I suppose my new wiring would be... ."worry about my wife's emotional state... ."... .then... proceed from there.   Naaah... .very little chance I can deprogram that... .or would want to.

I have intimate knowledge of situations where people where hysterical... .emotional... and ended up dead... .because they focused on emotions and that response... .rather than a more appropriate response to work the problem... .and try to stay alive.  I just don't see that changing in me.

I like being alive... .I am alive because of the way I think... .if my r/s ends because of the way I think... .I'm still alive... .

I know other people think differently... .that's ok... .

[Grey Kitty]

And recognizing that she is in this sort of mental/emotional state at the time, what are your best tools (the ones here, not the ones from naval aviator school) to address this sort of situation?

validate and not "corner" her... .would be my quick answer. 

Tough to do... .because my brain is just not wired that way... .you always... always... .always... .figure out if there is a life safety issue going on first... .and then address more minor concerns in some sort of order.

As I really didn't know what was going on for a while... .and it came out of nowhere... .I dunno... .I just don't know.

I do try to change the wiring... .but this has been "common" issue.  Where my priorities with what I perceive as life safety issues... .or my time spent assessing a situation... .are seen as invalidating or uncaring to her. 

Long list of counselors and others have told us both... .that expecting my thinking to change in those moments... .is not going to happen.  Basically... .when fight or flight shows up. 

Naval aviators have a corollary... .aviate... .navigate... .communicate.    If you "come to"... .and you don't know what is going on... .first... .make sure you are flying... .because if you aren't flying... .you are most likely going to quickly die. 

Then... .worry about where you are... .

Then... .worry about talking to people... .

I'm not saying you should change this principle--there is a lot of value to it, and it has served you well. And it is embedded deeply in who you are.

I think you would do well to make a few adjustments:

1. Accept that your wife does not have this training, and does not respond to situations this way. And getting her to do that is probably harder than getting you not to. 

That may mean she is an obstacle, in which case she is one you have to navigate around, instead of crashing into. (That puts dealing with her in step two, not step three, right?)

2. Tone down your definition of life safety issues with your children a bit, because some things you got really upset about were definitely not time-critical--as in nothing that couldn't wait for 30 minutes of allowing everybody to calm down followed by 10 minutes of discussion.

The incident where you got CPS involved WAS that kind of issue, and I commend your judgement and bravery getting into the middle of that one.

The medical stuff... .Honestly, I think your wife manages it "well enough." You might do something a bit better; You certainly would do it differently some times. But think about it... .you were a naval aviator, and she spent a lot of time raising kids while you were deployed, I'm betting. All your children survived, and I'm sure there were medical issues that came up at those times.

It may not be worth the fight over it.

[formflier]

2. Tone down your definition of life safety issues with your children a bit, because some things you got really upset about were definitely not time-critical--as in nothing that couldn't wait for 30 minutes of allowing everybody to calm down followed by 10 minutes of discussion.

Yep... .but... .there is usually a but. 

My wife... and lots of pwBPd... .tend to freak out first... .followed by evaluation... .followed by figuring out that it is no big deal and calm down. 

I like to get the facts... .figure out if freaking out is needed... .and then decide to freak out or not.  There at times when freaking out... .is appropriate... .

So... .in that light... .you are correct... .she is an obstacle... .because I can't figure out how big a deal life safety is... .without an evaluation.

Granted... .some things were obvious in this situation... .he is crying... .so airway and all that is good.  With her twisting him all around... .it was hard to get good look at area around eye.

Yeah... .I do have to try to determine... .in my own mind... .how I will handle issues like this in a future.  Deer in the headlights while being screamed at... .doesn't work... .

I need to either... just walk out... .

have a preplanned phrase that I can say... .and just keep repeating... .  "I understand you are upset... please lower your voice... ."

Also... need to more clearly define in my mind... .or run through "what ifs"... about when I will act or call authorities.

So... .what if... .it looked serious... .and she wouldn't let go... .

Me trying to wrestle kid from her... .and physically carry kid to hospital... .doesn't seem like good idea.  I suppose calling 911... and letting professionals sort it out...

I always figured... .that I would figure it out.  So... I don't want to role play too much... .

Sigh... .

[Grey Kitty]

Yes, she was an obstacle to YOU giving your kid appropriate care at the time.

However, it sounds like she was giving your kid good enough care. The bite got cleaned. Honestly, while ice for 15 minutes might have been better, it wasn't a big deal. The neosporin was reasonable. The kid was being comforted. (Or at least comforted more than he would be if you and your wife were fighting over how to care for him!)

I'm suggesting that you give her credit for being reasonable on medical stuff--that she's ~80% right. And that the ~20% where you disagree isn't urgent/timely, even if it is important at all.

If it was an issue where you would call  911 or drive straight to the hospital... .do you believe your wife would come to the same conclusion?

I'm thinking that she is trustworthy as a medical first responder in the family... .as in if there is a medical problem, and a kid goes to mom, she will handle it 80% right. And the 20% can be sorted out later, and you will still have all your kids whole and healthy when all is done.

[formflier]

 

Well... .ended up having a pretty good day in the hotel room.

The original plan was for wife to go to wedding and come get me and we would go home.  She has van.

We talked after the wedding... .we both agreed that kids would enjoy staying another night.  I was clear... .and she agreed... that I was staying here another night... .but wanted to her to stay with me this night at hotel.  We would get up early and go in the morning and still stick with schedule for tomorrow. 

So... at 730... .it was agreed that she would stay "a couple" more hours... .and then come spend time with me here at hotel.  Just me an her. 

I had a few more things that I could be productive on... .

Phone call was calm... .positive... .no wiggle room... .

No contact since then... .I've attempted to contact them... .I'm tired... and want to go to bed.

I believe it has been a week since she has slept in same bed with me... .

I'm tired... .as I examine my feelings this evening... .I am worried about my kids... .I feel apathy... .emptiness... .towards my wife. 

There is no doubt that the level of conflict has reduced... .dramatically... .

If I focus on her actions... .probably not a good thing... .

When given the choice between me... and her foo... .she decides for her foo.  It has been a long time since "all" in her foo were against her... and she against them.  Those are only times... .when I can see that she was clearly choosing me... .by her actions.

Sigh... .so... I'll use the tools... .I won't "bite" on her provocation to agree to come be with me... .and no show... .

Once again... .she got what she asked for... .I don't get my end of the deal.

On another post... .I indicated that if it matters to me... .I make the deal... .so that I get "mine" first.

Or... .I realize that I will have a talking/complaining point for MC... .


Sigh... .in a city I don't want to be in... .no access to car... .nobody answering phone... .

Not going to put myself in this situation again... .

[123Phoebe]

Hi formflier, wow, there has been a lot going on.  How are you feeling this morning?

I've settled in for a long afternoon of hanging out in a hotel room while my family completes visit... .and goes to wedding... .

 

I'm sorry if I missed something here, I can't find info about the actual wedding, the main reason for this visit. Were you planning on attending before the dog scuffle?  

It might not hold any relevance, guess maybe I'm just curious how the decision of you not attending came about...

[Notwendy]

It is natural that you are disappointed, and there is more going on here than just this incident, since she has not slept in your bed for a while. Your request for her to spend the night with you isn't ambigious. However, there are so many moving parts in this event- kids, dogs, relatives, a wedding, that just about anything could happen. Add some dysfunctional relatives in the mix ( every family has them) and to be honest, it just seems like a bad time to request some alone time with your wife.

These things are an inevitable set up. Visiting family/friends is an inevitable melt down for us. I can't think of a single incident where my H has not dysregulated. You name it: visiting parents, friends, weddings, vacations. There is something about long drives, noisy kids, staying with other people, that leads to miscomunication. One of the biggest triggers is if it is something for me: my side of the family or friends, because in these situations, I am very happy and excited to see people I have not seen in a long time, and he gets jealous of that attention. He can not seem to process that if I saw those people every day, I would not be that excited every day, but not seeing someone for years is a joyful reunion. He sees that as me liking them more than I like him.


Another trigger for him in these situations is that he's not so excited to see my family or friends, but goes along with it because we are family, and he also expects me to do this for him. I do this too, but naturally, I am not as close to his family as he is, so I don't have the same sense of comfort, but I do go, I am pleasant, and nice to them. He picks up on that too, and this can lead to a rage.

Fatigue is a factor. He drives- won't share it- a man thing? So he is grumpy and resentful for driving. He also loads the car and makes note of that. What he doesn't notice is that I've packed up all the kids' stuff, food, toys, snacks, medicine, and my own stuff, and have been taking care of their needs the whole time, breaking up squables, feeding, changing, toys, tapes, videos, and I'm just as tired too.

Something that affects us both, that it is hard to be aware of, is that we revert back to our positions in the family drama and we are both the triggers, and the being triggered, of all the craziness in our FOO. It takes a lot of energy for me to deal with my mom, and I try to have a pleasant time. Our visits are a change in her routine and she gets triggered. So during these times, I am not so attentive to my H and this triggers him. In his home, he gets put in his FOO drama, which is irritating to him.

Then there is the imagination. There have been times when I went to see family or friends, got caught up in the moment and lost track of time, or there was traffic, or something happened, and his imagination runs wild that I was ignoring his needs, snubbing his family, or had run off with some man.

So, while I see your point of view, there are other possible scenarios. First, I have no idea how many people are in the house where you are, but there are 10 of you, a bunch of dogs, and kids. For your host family- this is a stressor. I love having guests, but it is a disruption, the kids are wound up, I clean up the house and then it is a mess again, meals are larger, more noise, more chaos. I love it, and it is exhausting. Your hosts are exhausted, and everyone has come home from a wedding- the kids are probably wound up, adults worn out.

Now, is your wife is going to ask them to watch 8 additional wound up kids so she can leave and spend the night with you?

Or, is she going to help get the kids in bed and spend some quiet time with the hosts, help them clean up, or are they all going to collapse to sleep? Or, is she really happy to see her sister and wants to spend time with her before you all leave?

Or consider another scenario: Something happened between the two of you, and the whole family knows it. It's pretty obvious that you went to a hotel. What if, after all the kids went to bed, sister offered your wife a bit of emotional suport?- and wife cried on her shoulder for a while. Maybe she needed that. Going to see you would mean facing the issue again, at night, when she was tired. Yes, she could have called you to say she wasn't coming, but it might have been really late, or she couldn't face it.

[Cole]

I'm tired... .as I examine my feelings this evening... .I am worried about my kids... .I feel apathy... .emptiness... .towards my wife. 

Understandable to feel this way.

Seems to be the pattern of a SO with BPD to do things that drive the NON away, then accuse the NON of being cold, distant, and apathetic. Of course we are; it is our only means of defense.

Your advise has help lots of us on this forum, and I am sure I am not alone in saying my prayers are with you today.

[Notwendy]

I agree, Cole, FF's advice is invaluable. We nons are the ones to wonder and think since we don't project this stuff onto others.

However, some situations can be so complex that there isn't a singular answer and it may help to see it as a situation that is a set up in a sense. Also, for me, one way of thinking about something is to consider other points of view, so as much as I wish for validation of my point of view, reading others helps me understand too. This is why I try to present other ideas as well.

My T warns us about the acronym HALT- hungry, angry, lonely, tired so we know that whenever we are feeling this way, we are not likely to be in a good place to help or consider anyone else. The arrangements for this wedding- long car trip, tired adults and kids, angry people, and more, just seems like one of those times where nobody is really emotionally available to anyone else. This would be especially so for someone with a PD.

The way I have started to look at these things is not to avoid seeing family and friends, but to recognize the potential for a storm, and try to think of ways to take care of myself so that I am not in HALT as much and can handle what happens better. We've done this enough times for me to know what the trigger points are, but even then, they are not necessarily avoidable. So what can I do- go get coffee by myself, see some family on my own without my H, not stay with family, and so on so that I can be in a better position to handle what may or may not happen.

[Crumbling]

Hang in the FF... .    Just remember to breath, and pause before saying anything. Take that split second for you first.   

You know what you need to do.

prayers for you and yours,

c.

[formflier]

 

We are all back home. 

The eye bite or scratch... .whatever it is... .looks worse that it probably is. 

Ride home was fine... .did some stuff at family house in town where we lived.  Played Monopoly.  It went fine as well.

I was making big effort to "just be normal"

Well... .we get home... .get little kids to bed.  Wife says she will be up to sleep with me.  However... .she stays in room with little kids for a while. 

I'm about to go to sleep... .so I open the door to the room where she is... .and little kids are asleep.  she indicates she will be right up.

I get in bed and go to sleep.  Wake up... .still alone this morning. 

I think it has been over a week know... .since she has spent the night in our room.  I'm going to find time today to ask her... .in an even... .non accusatory manner... .what is up.

Or... maybe I'll just say I miss her and would really appreciate it if she would sleep in our room again. 

Also today need to check on status of shots for dog and ff kid.

Sigh... .it's almost 9am... .to my knowledge nobody has stirred in the kids room.  I assume she is in there. 

Planning my day... .I've got an interview later today (job search is ongoing)... .wife and I had planned on doing some of the prep together (she is a good helper for that... .). 

I suppose I'm going to figure it out myself

[Notwendy]

Sorry you are in this situation, FF. It just seems to me that there is a lot going on. Not sure what.

Actions speak louder than words. No matter what she says, she isn't sleeping in your room, for whatever that is. There is no telling why. She also has to know that you want her to- you've asked her. Whatever it is, I believe you would want to know that she is coming to bed with you because she chooses to. I don't know how making any case to her about it would not backfire.

It seems to me to be like the ST, or avoiding the issue. I know that if my H has decided he's not going to speak to me about something, it's not going to happen until, or if (maybe never) he chooses to and nothing I do or say is going to change anything.

[formflier]

 

Yeah... .I've considered ignoring it... .and I won't say anything unless I am sure that I can be even... .and gentle... .and clear.

Most like it won't be a question... .

Just state that I was disappointed she did not come up... .I miss her... .and would like to sleep in same bed with her... .

Unless she wants to say more... .I'll drop it there... .

We'll see... .

She emerged from room.  Looked at me on couch... .working laptop... .I waved and said hey... .she didn't speak.  Went upstairs.

[Notwendy]

Looks like the ST. You know how that one goes.

My mom does this too. If she's angry, she'll cut us all off. Now this hurt a lot when we were kids, and it has been hurtful when my H does it.

I know it is easier said then done, and I don't live with my mom, but when she's in this state, she gets out of it on her own time.

With my H, it's much harder, since he's in the house, and I just can't walk away with the kids around. Sometimes it's eerie. We can all be in the same room and he'll talk to the kids while pretending I'm not there.

I just have to constantly remind myself that this is his choice. I used to try to come after him, pleading him to speak to me, apologizing, basically cowering, but that didn't work. Nothing does. I just have to ignore it.

[formflier]

With my H, it's much harder, since he's in the house, and I just can't walk away with the kids around. Sometimes it's eerie. We can all be in the same room and he'll talk to the kids while pretending I'm not there.

I've gotten pretty feisty when she does this... .

Not outwardly... .but I make a point of saying something directly to her that needs a response... .when she ignores... .I ask her in front of kids why there his no response... .

It's been a while since she has done this... .I am thinking because I made it uncomfortable to try

[Hmcbart]

Hang in there ff. 

I'm still very new to all of this but the more I read from everyone the more I realize that most of us are the same people dealing with a lot of similar struggles. It helps hearing how others have dealt with and are currently dealing with all of this. If it helps you feel better, I was able to use SET to calm down a situation with my wife. Granted there were no dog bites or relatives to add gasoline to the situation.

I understand some of your military reactions, my brain function that way also. Step 1: assess the situation, you can't help anyone else if your injured trying to act. Step 2: check your pulse before anyone else's. Step 3: act... .or now it's more of don't react... .And for watch your language, use proper adjectives. 

[formflier]

 

Yep... .yesterday evening... .we ended by watching TV together on couch... .nice time... .chat about nothing in particular.

I ask if she is coming up... .that I'm going to get a shower and go to bed... .she is pleasant and says she will be right up.

You guessed it... .no show.

This morning seemed fine moving around the house... .getting things going.  Sigh

[Notwendy]

She'll come to bed when she darn well feels like it.

In the meantime, just assume she isn't coming to bed with you. Bring a bag of potato chips to bed and eat them, chill, bring a good book, snore, sleep in the middle of the bed, take up all the room, pull all the covers on top of you, settle in to sleeping alone.

She'll be back just about the time you've made yourself comfortable sleeping alone.

[Bloomer]

She'll come to bed when she darn well feels like it.

In the meantime, just assume she isn't coming to bed with you. Bring a bag of potato chips to bed and eat them, chill, bring a good book, snore, sleep in the middle of the bed, take up all the room, pull all the covers on top of you, settle in to sleeping alone.

She'll be back just about the time you've made yourself comfortable sleeping alone.

This sounds like a metaphor for my entire relationship.  And I really like the potato chips bit.

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .