Ended up in a hotel in a strange city last night

[formflier]

So... .I think I'm calmed down now... .and the crisis has past... .but... .I need to make some changes... .I'm going to need help making and sticking to those changes.

So... .we are in different city for a wedding.  At one of her (wife) relatives houses.

Things are going ok until out of nowhere my 6 year old starts crying... .and my wife starts screaming at me to "get the remote" (we were watching TV)... .I looked at her with a bemused look... .and she had daggers in her eyes... .

Screaming about ff kid being hurt... .

I'm sure I was not nice about saying that I didn't understand how her yelling helped that... .she drug kid into other room and started to look at him.

I get it figured out the kid has been bitten by a dog in the face.

I head to other room... .he is crying... .she is "venting" about how unhelpful I am... can't believe I would b___ about her when ff kid is bit.

Again... I'm sure I was not kind in what I said... .or how I asked a question... .

His eye didn't look good... .but didn't look "threatening" either... .hard to describe.  I suggested we take him to dr... .just to be safe.  I don't want to quote the exchange... .but she thought the idea was "ridiculous"

I got a towel and some ice... .and asked her to apply it to kids face... she did for 10-15 seconds... and then her sister started yammering on about how it needed neosporin.  The ice was off... ointment on... kid drug to other room where tv is. 

Wife has maintained control of kid with hands on the entire time.

I sit on couch and she starts demanding the remote... .stating the kid is fine... .I said no... .that we needed to talk and check out kid.  She made big deal about me being "ridiculous" again... .and grabbed remote and turned on tv (restarted dvr). 

I'm seriously triggered at this point... .and let her know I didn't want to be there and wanted to go home.

She was dismissive... .claimed they needed suitcases... .I considered grabbing my kid and taking him to dr... .instead... .I had key in my pocket and ran out the door... .no jacket.

Drove away... .

got a few minutes down the road and had to pull over because I was shaking violently and having problems controlling the vehicle.  Called veterans crisis line... .talked for a while.

Called cell phones of people in the house... .couldn't get through or get them to pick up.  Wanted to check on ff kid.

Wife finally called... .I decided I was going to sleep at hotel. 

she claims kid "just has scratch... "  it was no big deal.  that she was ok once she figured that out.

I asked her if I was allowed to check kid out... .she kept saying she didn't "prevent" me from doing it... .maybe semantics... but she didn't help either.

And... .zero of my suggestions or requests for what to be done to care for him were acted on... .all responses were NO.  No dr, no ice (she did for few seconds), no peace and quiet with tv off to look at him,  no to going home...

This all happened about midnight... .

I should have walked out the door... .but then I was faced with leaving kids in house with her yelling.

My PTSD is much better... .but will be lifelong burden... .much of my issue with that surrounds people screaming in a fire  (we all survived... .)

I'm in a pickle... .and I suspect that I will have to have a tight boundary... .she screams... .I leave.

But... .what about the kids... .?

[Notwendy]

I don't know what went on, but my first concern is about your child.

Do you know the dog? Has the dog had his shots? Rabies is the biggest concern. Was the bite provoked or unprovoked?

This is the difference.

A child is playing with someone's pet dog. This is the beloved family pet who has regular veterinarian visits and all shots. The dog doesn't generally bite, but he's a bit upset by all the comotion at a family event and nips at kid. Otherwise there has been no difference in the dog's behavior or health.

Strange dog that nobody knows much about  bites kid.

In the first case, a doc might be concerned about infection, and would want the kids shots to be up to date- tetanus and such. May watch bite.

In the second case, the same concerns are there, but with the additional concern of rabies which is not treatable and fatal. If there is no way to get info about the dog, then a doc would consider rabies vaccination for the child, which has to be started right away. Child needs the shots before he gets sick, to build his immunity to fight off the rabies germs, since there is no treatment for the illness.

[Notwendy]

Second thought:

Since you were at a family members house, I will assume that the dog is the pet, he's up to date on shots, and that dog is a bit wigged out by all the people and kids running around. Dogs have boundaries too, and when there are people and kids that dog isn't used to, and they are all over him, dog is going to need some space. Animals usually give some kind of warning- showing teeth, growling a bit, walking away, but a 6 year old isn't usually going to pick up on that. As a last resort dog will nip.

Then the kid is going to howl and scream a lot- not just over the bite but the hurt feelings. Doggie doesn't like him, won't play with him. "I want doggie to be my friend."  ( this is how 6 year olds think)

Now this is how mom's think. Child screaming and crying is triggering. It has to be. This is instinct, survival. Crying unglues mom- for a moment, mom doesn't know what was going on and it might be serious.

So, understandably, your wife could be dysregulated.

I see that it triggered you, but what I am wondering is it OK for your wife to panic over a dog bite? Your kid to scream and howl because doggie hurt him and his feelings? These seem like typical responses. I see where they would trigger PTSD from a combat situation, but these things happen with kids, and moms get upset.

Instead of leaving or making this bigger than it is, could you be a calm presence for your wife when she is upset? From her perspective, it would be frightening to think that if she responds like a mother would to her kids' crying that she'd be abandoned. Perhaps what she needs is someone to say, yes, this is scary, I know it is scary for a mom to hear her child cry, let's handle it together.

[Cole]

FF,

I think you did the right thing in leaving. Have done that a few times myself because I know she will calm down the minute I leave and that is in the best interest of the kids. Sometimes that is what is necessary for them to cool off and for us to cool off, also. Don't have PTSD, but W can push my buttons until I am good and mad.

No yelling or you will leave is a reasonable boundary and probably helps her recover a little quicker when she has lost it.   

[Grey Kitty]

I'm curious... .'tho this is more of a digression... .Is being around her FOO is a major stressor for your wife?

That got ugly quick. Your wife got triggered. You got triggered.

You know what sort of PTSD stuff makes you easy to trigger; I'm sure you are trying to reduce this as best you can, but it will be a long process.

I'd look not so much for a tight boundary around your wife's behavior... .as a serious plan contingency for yourself:

When you find yourself triggered in the presence of your family, what can YOU do to get yourself re-regulated? Do you need to step out immediately for 15 minutes?

[Notwendy]

GK, this is an important issue. Being around my FOO takes a lot of energy for me. I have watched my H get triggered by his family. There's a lot of craziness that I notice, but he doesn't, and so it takes a lot of energy for me to be there as well.

Travelling with kids is also a stressor. I'm out of sorts, H is too. We are staying in a strange place so we aren't in the best situation. The kids' routines are disrupted and they are out of sorts too.

I agree with FF taking care of himself. Is there any way to pre-empt this? FF has a large family. Sometimes staying with relatives is overwhelming for us if there are lots of people there. FF's family + the other family must be a pretty big number.

I know this is expensive, but one way I deal with visiting my mom is to stay in a hotel or an airbnd rental or something like that. Mom likes everything just so, and so a kid playing and maybe moving her stuff is triggering. The kids having to behave the way she wants them to is triggering to me. Plus staying somewhere else gets us out of the emotional swirl for a bit where we can unwind.

You could even arrange this so that the older kids can have a sleepover with their cousins at the family house, while you, your wife and the smaller kids that need more supervision stay somewhere else.

Maybe the family dog expressed it best. They are a good barometer for stress in the house.  "I need my space or I'm gonna bite someone".

[formflier]

 

I've settled in for a long afternoon of hanging out in a hotel room while my family completes visit... .and goes to wedding... .I'll break this up into several posts... .lots of it will be a bit of a ramble... .disjointed... .please keep asking the questions... .and we'll sort out the story.

I suspect there are several triggers here... .and could be several boundaries to set... .or at least several places to hopefully have "safe" "calm" understanding conversations with my wife about... .in or out of MC. 

I will not "do nothing" about last night... .

I also realize there are limits to my power... .I will make a stand on "my side" of the street... .try to do right thing... .

OK... .I'll start answering questions already posted... and then try to fill in some details... .

[formflier]

I don't know what went on, but my first concern is about your child.

I agree... .I suspect he is ok.  That was really my concern last night... .I wanted to ensure that he was ok... .or even understand what happened... it happened very fast.  Honestly... .even though I was in same room... .I didn't see it. 

I will ask my wife to verify status of shots.  I know believe the dog(s) (there are several in house) go to the vet... I've heard them talk about it.  But... .this is something that I want to know... .no wiggle room.

I think it was a bite... .it looked like bite.  Wife is now calling it a "scratch"... .she is being very "minimalist" about the entire thing.  Dismissive of my concerns is another way of saying it. 

When I asked how ff kid was... this morning... ."he's fine... .he's playing with everyone else... .this is no big deal... ."  I changed subjects... haven't addressed it since... .  I "heard" dismissive in her voice... .there is history here... .I'm still a bit triggered or hot about this... .but I don't think I'm "hearing things".  Dismissive means... .FF is overreacting... .I'm the reasonable one here.  She actually said last night... .that it was reasonable for her to yell at me... .but my reaction to her yelling was unreasonable... .(not direct quote... .but close... .)

Do you know the dog? Has the dog had his shots? Rabies is the biggest concern. Was the bite provoked or unprovoked?

Yes I know the dog... .little toilet scrubber sized thing.  I hate the dog... .long history here that I will elaborate more in future posts... .dog is menace... .  Women think it's the cutest thing ever... .it shi$ts where it wants to ... .women yell at it... .

I'm pretty sure it has had it's shots... .I will verify... .most likely via text... .  My prediction is I will be a$$hole for asking... .oh well... .

Knowing ff kid... .knowing the dog... .the bite was provoked... and not the dogs fault  Again... .I can't prove that... .didn't see that... .but that is where I bet my money.

This is the difference.

Agreed!

A child is playing with someone's pet dog. This is the beloved family pet who has regular veterinarian visits and all shots. The dog doesn't generally bite, but he's a bit upset by all the comotion at a family event and nips at kid. Otherwise there has been no difference in the dog's behavior or health.

I believe this to be the case... .

Strange dog that nobody knows much about  bites kid.

There is history here... .this has happened to me.  I would try to capture dog... .to have it impounded.  Capture being alive preferably... .or dead (so it could be examined).  I believe vets are more comfortable with dogs alive... .waiting out rabies period.  Dog cannot get away... .otherwise you have to assume the worst... .and treat for rabies. 

In the first case, a doc might be concerned about infection, and would want the kids shots to be up to date- tetanus and such. May watch bite.

Agreed that this is most likely the case.  I would rather a doctor make this decision... .my wife has made this decision... .is dismissive of my desire to take ff kid to dr.  There is history here... .with other kids... .where she knows better than doctors... .or backs kids up that believe they know better.  Most of the time she is proven wrong.  No major damage has happened from this yet... .I fear it will.  (More on this later)

In the second case, the same concerns are there, but with the additional concern of rabies which is not treatable and fatal. If there is no way to get info about the dog, then a doc would consider rabies vaccination for the child, which has to be started right away. Child needs the shots before he gets sick, to build his immunity to fight off the rabies germs, since there is no treatment for the illness.

Agreed... .I have been in this situation... .with a dog in impound... .and me sweating bullets (so to speak).  Probably part of the trigger of last night.

[sweetheart]

formflier I just want to say I'm really sorry that this has happened and that you felt so traumatised by the situation. I don't know if you do hugs but I feel compelled to send you some    

I'm glad you are taking it easy and have taken some time away for yourself. Feeling overwhelmed due to your own emotional triggers means that in this situation you would have been no good to anyone. Recognising this is  

Regrouping and thinking about what to do next to take care of you and then from there move forward is a good strategy for now.

Take care.

[Notwendy]

FF, I wouldn't take anyone's word for it. People don't always tell the truth about their pets, and they may think they are up to date but don't know for sure. Chances are, if it was a pet, it's fine, but rabies is such that there is no wiggle room.

I was bit a while back by a neighborhood dog. I was pretty sure it wasn't a problem. It was a similar story- family occasion, dog out of sorts.

But I don't mess with this stuff. I asked the owner the name of the veterinarian and she was glad to tell me. Then, I contacted the veterinarians office and they confirmed that the dog was seen there and his shots.

I also called my doctor, who informed me that my tetanus shot was not up to date, and so went by and got that too.

I assume a 6 year old is up to date, but better to check than to be sorry. You need the shot records from both the veterinarian and then you need to ask your child's doc if your child needs anything.

Kids and dogs = bites. Veterinarians and docs are aware of this, and so are willing to provide that information.

[formflier]

Second thought:

Since you were at a family members house, I will assume that the dog is the pet, he's up to date on shots, and that dog is a bit wigged out by all the people and kids running around. Dogs have boundaries too, and when there are people and kids that dog isn't used to, and they are all over him, dog is going to need some space. Animals usually give some kind of warning- showing teeth, growling a bit, walking away, but a 6 year old isn't usually going to pick up on that. As a last resort dog will nip.

I believe this is generally what happened.

Then the kid is going to howl and scream a lot- not just over the bite but the hurt feelings. Doggie doesn't like him, won't play with him. "I want doggie to be my friend."  ( this is how 6 year olds think)

This 6 year old is a bit more dramatic than most... .overall really good kid... .but very "expressive" of the good... .and the bad.

Now this is how mom's think. Child screaming and crying is triggering. It has to be. This is instinct, survival. Crying unglues mom- for a moment, mom doesn't know what was going on and it might be serious.

Understandable reaction... which I did try to help with... .I tried to be conscious about asking... vice telling.  I can't tell you for sure I always did that last night... .very fast paced. 

For instance... .I asked if she would put ice on it... .vice told her.  This may have been mistake... since I might should have been clearer... that my desire was for someone to hold ice on it for xx minutes... (this also could have been taken as invalidating... .most likely would have... and she would have retorted with... ."so you think I'm an idiot... "  I've heard retorts like that in the past... .and... .one of my wife's go to things... Is that she knows what I and other people think.  I am currently trying to get out of that... .any instance of her bringing that up is challenged for "understanding... ."

So, understandably, your wife could be dysregulated.

No doubt about it... .

I see that it triggered you, but what I am wondering is it OK for your wife to panic over a dog bite?

I don't think it is ok.  I know it is not helpful.  Goes contrary to all of my naval aviation training.  You panic... you are dead... .keep working the problem.  You have the rest of your life to figure it out... .  is one of our favorite lines on how to deal with an emergent situation.  I am alive and typing today because of this attitude.  This attitude is not going away... .it's kept me alive for over 20 years... .when situations tried to kill me (literally... .I wish this was an exaggeration... .).  All of m Ps and Ts say to just accept this is the way your brain works.

With someone screaming and hollering... .if there is no effective (actionable) communication... .you need to get them to hush... .so you can "work the problem"

Your kid to scream and howl because doggie hurt him and his feelings? These seem like typical responses. I see where they would trigger PTSD from a combat situation, but these things happen with kids, and moms get upset.

Yep... .  And I can see a point of view... .where this is not "fair" to her... .that she has to be careful not to trigger her.

I would hope she can see my point of view... .that I don't want my kids taught through actions... .that the appropriate first step in an emergent situation is to scream and holler (ineffectively).

So... .in this situation... .if she screamed at me to get a towel and ice... .I may have responded better... as that would have made more sense to me (I could have processed it faster).  I still don't understand why screaming about the remote (especially when I almost never have the remote) is actionable or helpful.  If the thought was that it needed to be quieter... I could accept that.  But that argument (when it came from me)... was rejected later... .She had decided the TV was coming back on... and that was it... .I was "ridiculous" for wanting it off. 

Yet... .at the start of the emergency... .she wanted it off?  What the heck?  Huh?

Instead of leaving or making this bigger than it is, could you be a calm presence for your wife when she is upset? From her perspective, it would be frightening to think that if she responds like a mother would to her kids' crying that she'd be abandoned. Perhaps what she needs is someone to say, yes, this is scary, I know it is scary for a mom to hear her child cry, let's handle it together.

I don't understand the point about her being abandoned?  Was this about me saying I wanted to go home?

I do want to allay her fears... her concerns about a child crying...

The most hurtful thing was that she got her concerns handled... .she maintained physical (hands on) custody of child.  And kept "twisting" the child away from me... .she may claim she was trying to get child in better light so "she could see".

I didn't demand to touch the child or to see directly for myself.  I saw enough to see that there was an injury around the eye... .but eye looked intact and untouched.  I should say injury is on cheek below the eye... .in vicinity of eye.

My only suggestion that was acted on was the ice... .I saw swelling.  I saw one cheek looked bigger than the other.  Later in the evening... .over the phone... .she claimed there had been no swelling.

It wasn't shocking or horrible... .but I saw... what I saw.

Ice stayed on for a few seconds... .her sister starts yammering on about what the kid "really needs"... .is neosporin.  Ice came off... .ointment on.  It appeared to me after that that there was no more ice on cheek... .although I seem to remember my wife holding it in her hand. 

I would have rather ice been held on area for 10 minutes or so... with no breaks.  I didn't assert myself clearly here... .I believe if I had... .I would have been dismissed again.

[formflier]

FF,

I think you did the right thing in leaving. Have done that a few times myself because I know she will calm down the minute I leave and that is in the best interest of the kids. Sometimes that is what is necessary for them to cool off and for us to cool off, also. Don't have PTSD, but W can push my buttons until I am good and mad.

No yelling or you will leave is a reasonable boundary and probably helps her recover a little quicker when she has lost it.   

Right now... .I am still in agreement with this.  That if I had left immediately upon yelling... .last night would have turned out better.

While I have issues to clean up... .medically... verifying shots and such... .had there really been blood spurting I believe had I left... .it would have been handled appropriately.

I am most likely to call ambulance first... .or take to dr first... .

[Notwendy]

I know that your have training, but a home isn't the army. Maybe I pick up on this since my H comes from a military family that runs like the military. However, it's really invalidating to feelings, and the minute anyone expresses them, the MO is to stomp them out.

My H reacts the same way if I show any distress. Stomp out the feeling.

There's a reason 6 year olds aren't in the armed forces. They feel what they are going to feel, and they are going to howl if they want.

Mom's are wired to get upset when their child cries. This is different from being in the armed forces. It's an instinct.

This is why doctors do not treat their own family. They can be logical and objective when dealing with non relatives, but not their own.

Your child was bit by a dog, your wife got unglued. Don't know what the remote was about, but maybe it was projected feelings.

You did the right thing by protecting yourself. The abandonment part I was referring to is the feeling one gets that expressing feelings isn't allowed.  Your wife's upset triggered you. I can feel this way too. Sometimes when I am upset, I just want my H to hold me, not fix it, not do anything else, but his response can be to rage at it or avoid it or walk away.

Your wife's reaction upset you, but just as you have the right to protect herself, perhaps it isn't fair to expect her to deal with this the way you were trained to do in the military. Maybe she was just feeling what a mom might feel when her kid is screaming, albeit having a hard time managing those feelings.

[formflier]

I'm curious... .'tho this is more of a digression... .Is being around her FOO is a major stressor for your wife?

Yes... .and she was already mad about that.  I'll post more about this in a few minutes.  Quick version... .there is a "quadrangle"  (four women)... .that alternate being in and "out" with each other.  They are all quick to tell you that they are the reasonable one... .and the other ones are "b$tches"... .or the most wonderful reasonable person ever... .depending on in and out status.  Remind one of them that just a few minutes ago... .you felt another way about one of these women... .and doom will come your way

That got ugly quick. Your wife got triggered. You got triggered.

No arguing that... .my election to stick around as long as I did... .was out of concern for kid... .I suspect that I did more harm that good. 

However... .I'm not going to drop this issue... .there are several... .I need to be smart about this... .as I think there are real safety concerns here.  I also have to be cognizant... .that PTSD alters my "danger meter"... .or it can.

You know what sort of PTSD stuff makes you easy to trigger; I'm sure you are trying to reduce this as best you can, but it will be a long process.

Yep... .I've been tested out the yingyang... .if there is a fill in the blank or multiple guess psych test... .I've taken it... .several times.  Wife used to claim that she knew I had this and that... .and it couldn't be PTSD.  (this was before I knew about BPD).  In fact... .one interesting story... .is that my wife had an argument with the MC that finally mentioned BPD to me... .about how to treat PTSD. 

So... .I take meds for PTSD... .to help keep nightmares down... .so help me sleep.  So... on the one hand... .I can see how it could be confusing... .except that my wife has heard this directly from Ps and psychologists before... .I was in the room.

Anyway... .my wife was claiming that I refused to take medications for PTSD... .also said I refused treatment.  Treatment being talk therapy. 

Anyway... .MC (works for VA) types on computer... .and says... .asks... .Is he still taking prazosin?  And she says... .Yes... .but that is for sleep... .not for PTSD. 

MC tries to explain to her that it is one and the same... .but wife was having none of it.  Wife was telling a T (at the VA) that she didn't know what she was talking about when it comes to people with PTSD... .  

I believe it was the next session... .where wife stormed out and the MC told me about BPD... .the rest is history.

I'd look not so much for a tight boundary around your wife's behavior... .as a serious plan contingency for yourself:

Agreed!  Please hold me accountable for being able to clearly express this here... .on this forum... .so I can clearly express it to my wife and anyone else.  I don't want to JADE... .but I do want to be clear... .

When you find yourself triggered in the presence of your family, what can YOU do to get yourself re-regulated? Do you need to step out immediately for 15 minutes?

My guess is hat if I had taken a walk... .or drive to get some coffee... .that I would have been much better off.

This assumes... .the order of events was... she yells... .I get up and walk out of house. 

That would be... will be... .really tough to do... especially if I don't understand "status" of my kid.

I'm open to other alternatives... .but none come to mind.

I can't repeat what happened last night... .

[formflier]

 Your wife's upset triggered you. 

More later on this... .but... .yes... .the yelling upset me.

The real upset... .was that my concerns were dismissed.

She said the word "ridiculous" several times... .

Several times in evening trying to justify her yelling... .yet tell me my reaction was the problem.

That was what I perceived as the "trigger" that broke the camels back.

Yelling is trigger... .

Dogs misbehaving is trigger...

But the real issue... .IMO... is my wife took care of her concerns and feelings... .and dismissed mine as ridiculous.

I can get to a place in my life... .in fact I am there now... .where I can accept her reactions or getting "spun up".

I will never be ok with her dismissing my feelings as "ridiculous"

Whatever the consequence of me "pushing this issue"... .I will push it.  If that upsets her... .it upsets her... .

I do need to acknowledge that in the effort to protect her feelings... .I was not as clear about what I wanted... .and force... or allow her to be clear about her acceptance or refusal.

For instance... ."please hold ice on the wound for x minutes... .and then let's examine it together... ."

Sigh... .more later... .

[Grey Kitty]

My guess is hat if I had taken a walk... .or drive to get some coffee... .that I would have been much better off.

This assumes... .the order of events was... she yells... .I get up and walk out of house. 

That would be... will be... .really tough to do... especially if I don't understand "status" of my kid.

I'm open to other alternatives... .but none come to mind.

I can't repeat what happened last night... .

I do think you are on the right track--if you cannot handle her yelling, then make sure you are not exposed to it. That is the one area under your control.

If blood is spurting, you said you would call an ambulance yourself. Good plan--that is an urgent situation, and needs something done immediately.

The question of whether ff kid should see a doc for the dog bite, or ice vs. neosporin? Yes, important, but NOT URGENT.

The urgent need (washing up and calming down the ff kid) was being taken care of by your wife. (along with some gratuitous yelling.)

If ff kid needs to see a doc, it is in a few hours, not a few minutes. Let everybody wind down a bit before discussing that with your wife.


I bet one of your naval aviation lessons was to plan ahead and practice so when a crisis came up, you did the right thing. Do that. Plan how you will handle this sort of home-life crisis now, so you don't have to make up a plan when you are triggered. Executing it properly is tough enough at that time!

[Grey Kitty]

But the real issue... .IMO... is my wife took care of her concerns and feelings... .and dismissed mine as ridiculous.

I can get to a place in my life... .in fact I am there now... .where I can accept her reactions or getting "spun up".

I will never be ok with her dismissing my feelings as "ridiculous"

Whatever the consequence of me "pushing this issue"... .I will push it.  If that upsets her... .it upsets her... .

You don't have to be ok with it. I wouldn't like it either.

You also cannot stop her from doing it.

And it probably wouldn't be such a trigger for you if she didn't do it to you pretty often.

If you accept that she is about 99.9% likely to do this to you again, you can work on how to respond to it.

A couple hard questions for you:

Why do you take it personally and believe her when she says your concerns are ridiculous?

Why do you expect her to deal with your concerns instead of her own?

[formflier]

GK, this is an important issue. Being around my FOO takes a lot of energy for me. I have watched my H get triggered by his family. There's a lot of craziness that I notice, but he doesn't, and so it takes a lot of energy for me to be there as well.

Yes... .craziness that I notice... that they don't.  If they are "in" with each other... .they are the best ever... can do no wrong.  If they are "out"... .they pick each other apart... .mercilessly. 

Loud voices and yelling at each other are common... .  It was very uncommon in my family.  Not saying better or worse... .

They seem to "get over" being yelled at fairly quickly.  I tend to be hurt for a while.

There family relationship seems to be... we are in same room staring at a TV together... .

I generally don't like TV... .

This is known issue... .we have agreed to disagree... .but is a common point of tension.

She is fine with having a discussion with me with TV on... laptop on her lap... .and smart phone going... .all at same time.

Claims that she can keep up with it.

I used to try this... .now I refuse to discuss important matters like this.  She doesn't like this... .but seems to be coming to acceptance of it.

Note:  She can't keep up with it.  I will tell her something... .she will repeat back almost the opposite.  Either because of distraction... .or she wants to fight.  My goal in removing distractions... .is to remove the excuse. 

I want to deal with what she actually thinks and says (regardless if i like it)... .I want her to deal with what I actually think and say as well... .  This is getting better... .now that excuses have been removed.

Travelling with kids is also a stressor. I'm out of sorts, H is too. We are staying in a strange place so we aren't in the best situation. The kids' routines are disrupted and they are out of sorts too.

Yep... .generally this is true.  This trip was a bit worse... .because of how their FOO works... .or IMO... fails to work.  Make sure I explain this later... .

I agree with FF taking care of himself. Is there any way to pre-empt this? FF has a large family. Sometimes staying with relatives is overwhelming for us if there are lots of people there. FF's family + the other family must be a pretty big number.

This was going to be the first attempt for me to sleep at their house (vice a hotel)... .in well over a year.  Maybe longer.  I brought up the issue and asked my wife... .since several people on her sisters side were not going to be there... .she claimed it was going to be ok.  We would just sleep there.  No openness on her part to hotel. 

Already had had "issues"... .so I was trying to be flexible and accommodating... .          

More on this later... .I'm trying not to miss any points... .

I know this is expensive, but one way I deal with visiting my mom is to stay in a hotel or an airbnd rental or something like that. Mom likes everything just so, and so a kid playing and maybe moving her stuff is triggering. The kids having to behave the way she wants them to is triggering to me. Plus staying somewhere else gets us out of the emotional swirl for a bit where we can unwind.

Normally... .we go to their house... .kids stay there... .and my wife and I go to hotel.  Maybe take one or two kids with us... .but usually just us... .so I can get good nights sleep.

You could even arrange this so that the older kids can have a sleepover with their cousins at the family house, while you, your wife and the smaller kids that need more supervision stay somewhere else.

Yep... pretty much what we had been doing.  Doubtful if I ever agree to attempt to stay there again... .certainly if there are no changes in "dog procedures".  More on that later.

Maybe the family dog expressed it best. They are a good barometer for stress in the house.  "I need my space or I'm gonna bite someone".

Especially... .dogs that are untrained little varmits... .but are cute. 

and with women that would rather say "awwww"... ."look how cute"... .and resist any attempt at training or accountability that a dog behave a certain way.

Yeah... .very negative opinion of my wife and her FOO on this issue.  More blanks filled on this later... .

Sigh... .I might be halfway through this story... .how do things get so complicated... .?

[Notwendy]

FF, I'm going to give you a mom's perspective, you might not like it, but I hope you can see your wife's point of view for just a bit.

I think you're being a bit harsh on her. She's doing the best she can in a chaotic situation. It sounds like there are a bunch of family members, a gazillion kids, and dogs all in one place, a wedding and it's sensory overload at least. Even the dog can't take it.

Stress is the baseline here. Then dog bites kid and kid screams and the stress level gets higher. Mothers are tuned into their childs' cries. This is instinct. At that moment in time, they focus on the child. They don't care about anyone else, least of all the other adults.

That includes your feelings. Sorry, at that moment in time, no mother with a crying child is going to give a rat's tail about the feelings of any adult in the room. It's instinctual. If you were a momma bear you'd get it. I've seen my friends turn into bears if they think their child is upset. I have too. Momma bears are more likely to forgive another momma bear for acting like a bear temporarily, because we've been bears ourselves.

This doesn't mean we don't care about our H's feelings, but in the face of a distressed child, and our own fear that the child is hurt, we can only focus on the child.

You are hurt and angry, and it is understandable, but please consider giving your wife a pass on this one.

[formflier]

I bet one of your naval aviation lessons was to plan ahead and practice so when a crisis came up, you did the right thing. Do that. Plan how you will handle this sort of home-life crisis now, so you don't have to make up a plan when you are triggered. Executing it properly is tough enough at that time!

Of course you are right... .

[Notwendy]

And you can take care of yourself. Once my parents were visiting, and staying with us. My dad just snapped and said he needed to go to a hotel.

I remember that it hurt my feelings. We had a nice guest room, and a comfortable place, but it was about him. He liked to have his own space. He wanted to watch what he wanted, not the cartoons on TV. Maybe my mom was making him nuts too and he couldn't handle her, and the kids and being in a house where he was a guest.

In a hotel with mom, at least it was just mom.

So, you've tried this and it just doesn't work. Now maybe there are ways to visit and have some space to yourself. Maybe even your wife can stay with her family and you take some kids to a hotel. No dogs, less drama. You're miserable there.

Yes, I get the marital bed thing, and staying together, but what's going to happen with a gazillian dogs, relative, kids everywhere. Doesn't sound romantic to me. Yes family might think it is strange if you two don't stay the night together, but so what?

I can deal with my FOO better than my H can, and vice versa.

[formflier]

[

A couple hard questions for you:

Why do you take it personally and believe her when she says your concerns are ridiculous?

Why do you expect her to deal with your concerns instead of her own?

Excellent questions.

I don't think my concerns were ridiculous... .it was hurtful (not the only trigger)... .but it is hurtful to hear that.  

Hmmm... did I take it personally... .yeah... .there was also a "perception of danger" slice in there... .

In other words... .several trigger issues at same time.

My expectation is that we both get our concerns taken care of.  We are both parents.  we both care about ff kid.  Her concern was not ridiculous.   Sisters desire to have ointment on there was not ridiculous.

Sister also expressed need to remove dog... .do a few other things... .all seemed reasonable.  Wife either said yes and agreed... .or did it.

The only person my wife disagreed with... .(except for brief period of seconds of applying ice I provided)... .was me.  

I don't believe my concerns were unfounded... .I don't believe any of my suggestions were unsafe... .I believe now I should have made them even more strenuously... .or clearly.  So wife can't claim any confusion.  

Or... .I should have left the scene... .and let others clean up the mess.  And tried to deal with it when calmer.

I can see that my actions did not calm the situation.

I can see that my wife's actions did not calm the situation either.


Back to GKs question.  I want to support my wife in getting what she "wants" or feels she "needs" with kids.  I would like her to reciprocate.  This is getting better.  We are not on same page.  

I may not have answered clearly... .

GK... please revisit this... .

[formflier]

You are hurt and angry, and it is understandable, but please consider giving your wife a pass on this one.

I may... .and I do... .want to figure out a way that this incident moves forward in the positive direction.  That is my goal.

There is more to story... .earlier events.

And... .I understand the mamma bear... all to well.  I've had to protect kids from it in past.  I didn't consciously think of that last night... .but I am sure it is there. I'll try to make this quick... .

Last spring... .a motorist honked because the 1 year old was in the road.  I was in house... .wife and I were out of sorts... .so I was staying out of her way.  Wife was in yard... .6 year old, 8 year old and 11 year old were supposed to be "watching" baby... .with wife in yard... .and next thing you know... .honk honk... .baby in road.

Wife drags kids into house an into back bedroom... .I turn on recorder and head to back bedroom.  Wife is screaming... .kids are screaming... .there is a whipping... .the sound of which I have never heard in my life going on.  The sound was horrible... .what I saw when entering the room was even worse. 

Her eyes were wide... .she was taking swings with a belt by raising it as high as it would go... and taking full swats at kids.

I asked her to please stop and lets go talk... .she was saying no baby was in road... .

I stood between her and 8 year old.  I still don't know if I prevented a whipping... .or saved 8 year old from another one.

DSS was called... .big investigation... .we got into family counseling... and ultimately things are much better.

I don't mind at all the mom's perspective... .and she may need a pass on this one.  But... .bears do eat their cubs... .I've seen it... .I stopped it... .and I will do so again if needed.  Regardless of consequence.

To my knowledge there has not been any more corporal punishment in my house since then.  She understands that I will take action to prevent this if it happens.

Very likely she doesn't like this... .very likely it still comes into her mind and clouds it.

[formflier]

 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=226239.0

for reference

[formflier]

I often wondered if my PTSD skewed what happened that evening... .it most likely did.  I have let several professionals and people I trust listen to the recording.  All were horrified... .those that knew my wife couldn't believe how her voice sounded.

[formflier]

I know that your have training, but a home isn't the army. Maybe I pick up on this since my H comes from a military family that runs like the military. However, it's really invalidating to feelings, and the minute anyone expresses them, the MO is to stomp them out.

My wife has said as much... .almost word for word.  I don't understand how it applies in this situation... .and in most situations when she makes claims like this.

We don't run our family like the military... .(not by my choice... .but... .by my agreement)  (is that doublespeak... .not sure).  I would like to be more organized... .I think it would give us more family time to be calm and talk to each other.

I actually know a thing or two about how to run a large complex organization... to manage sleep schedules... .eating and cleaning schedules... .wife says it doesn't apply... .has used the word "ridiculous" (it's one of her favorite go to words... ) several times.

The last time this really came to  a head... .was before I knew about BPD.  Wife was complaining (along with stomping around the house... yelling... huffing and puffing... .)  that we didn't have family time around the dinner and breakfast table.

I asked her if I could have the reins for a week or two (this is while we still lived on farm) and work with kids chores and all that.  I told her my goal was to get us 30 minutes together at breakfast table in morning... with chores done... .so we could talk and be a family. 

She happily agreed... .and seemed excited.

Two weeks later I delivered.  I think she had forgotten or stopped paying attention.  I had some notes I showed her... .at the end of breakfast.  I explained how I kept start time of chores the same... .altered who did what a bit... .altered the order of events some... .and did some quality control in the barn.  Chores got done faster and better.

I showed her that we had 30 minutes of breakfast that morning... .and she said she liked it.

Then... .she started telling the kids to do things differently... .accusations... .typical BPD crap.  I responded badly... .made it worse... .  She has held the reins tightly since then ... .yet still complains about them being lazy... .poor results... .and then alternates to them being best kids ever... .high producers... etc etc.

Reality... .production has gone down hill... .grades are worse... .

I've kept quiet on this... .as I think I have other... .more pressing issues to work with. 

But... .there is an "undertone" around the family surrounding these issues... .

Hope this makes sense...

[formflier]

formflier I just want to say I'm really sorry that this has happened and that you felt so traumatised by the situation. I don't know if you do hugs but I feel compelled to send you some    

Thanks for the hugs... .!   

[formflier]

And you can take care of yourself. Once my parents were visiting, and staying with us. My dad just snapped and said he needed to go to a hotel.

Agree with everything you said... .and I suspect this will apply to me in the future... .

I'm about ready to start filling in some backstory... .that probably focused itself last night.

But yeah... .there was a reason I quit staying at the house over a year ago... .bad idea to agree to try it again... .it proved not to work... .yet again.       

FF... .take a hint!

[formflier]

 

OK... start some backstory... the last week or so.

For some reason... .my wife took to sleeping in other rooms.  That's her right.  She did come up one morning and we had sex... nice cuddle.

I've taken to ignoring this behavior (sleeping in other rooms) when it happens.  Usually turns into classic no win convo.  So... .I proceed on with my life... .in an empty bed.

Before that... .it had been couple weeks since she slept anywhere else. 



Yesterday during day  She came up to our room and started talking about our oldest daughter.  This is the "trigger child"... .wife claims we disagree on her ... .more than others.  Claims she knows what this kid is thinking... .this kid has been focus on last couple MCs. 

Wife claimed that me giving daughter a hug... .was interfering with her parenting.  Wife realized she was projecting... .and reality was other way around... .she was interfering with me comforting my child... .I had no idea about all the other drama.  Literally... .was unaware... .my daughter was crying... .so I gave her a hug.

So... .I'm on my toes.  I used active listen.  I thought it was going great. 

You guys know me... .I'm a metrics guy.  I agreed with 100% of what my wife said  yet she walked out of room... said she would never talk to me again about it... .  HUH?  What the heck?

Wife says  "If ff daughter thinks others are stupider than her... .then that is very concerning to me... ."

ff  "If ff daughter thinks others are stupider than here... .then that is concerning to me as well... .I agree with you wholeheartedly... ."

A couple of sentences later... .she had kind of changed subjects... .she switches to FF daughter... and claims I disagreed.  Huh?  She remained calm... .no hint of dysregulation... .not a hint... .  Got up and walked out of room... .tossing words over her shoulder about "see if I ever talk to you about this again... .I'll never bring her up to you again... .I should have known better... ."  Huh?

Usually she "stomps" out of room... .when this happens... .but all was calm... except for walkout and odd words.

I let it go for 20 minutes or so and went downstairs to find her.  I asked her if she had time to talk... .(of course... no direct response... )... .about what she asks... . 

I told her I didn't understand why she walked out and wouldn't talk to me about ff daughter.  She claimed I was pointing out to her that she didn't know what ff daughter thought? Huh?... .and I was being disagreeable   Huh?

I would describe her  as irritated.

Anyway... .I briefly summarized what I thought we talked about... .and my agreement.  She seemed confused... .genuinely so.   

She kept trying to change subject... .talked to kids that came into room.  I indicated concern... .and that I wanted to find time later to discuss this properly so I could understand.

We left it at that.  No real effort or time was available later to discuss it.   I didn't want to discuss in van ride over in front of kids.

This was the morning before the dog bite (yesterday morning)

[formflier]

 

More backstory... why my wife was already mad... before the bite.

We get over to the new city at 7pm.  Exactly when we had told them (or so I thought) we would be there.  I had even heard my wife on phone with them... confirming we would see them in 2 hours... .at 7pm... .and that we were driving away.  OK... see you then.

Nothing about what I heard was confusing... .I was actually proud of my wife for coordinating a trip so well. 

So... .we pull up to dark house at 7pm.  We all pile out of van... .and are standing on porch... .knocking... .ringing bell... .silence.

Kids are doing peepee dance... .so... .we hustle them back into van... .and off we go to find a mcDs or something.  As we are getting in van... .wife lets loose... painting her sister black... cursing... .kids are all listening.  She explained to everyone that her sister is "punishing us"... .that my wife "knows how this works... "... .it went on for a while... .was horrible to listen to.

Wife calls and gets her sister... .her sister is going to be at her studio for a while... ."everyone" is with her.  Note: Wife had claimed they were out doing something else... .(I suspect this is invalidation number 1).  Wife was proven wrong. 

Like nothing... .the black painting switched... .and sister was still horrible... .but for different... .new reasons... based on phone call.

I'm confused as all get out... .

Potty... .wal mart... .go to sams club and get hot dogs and pizza for everyone ... .

I'm trying to figure out if we need to go to movie... .or do a family event (just us) in a strange city.  I need information... .I ask my wife some questions... .defensiveness through the roof.  I end up figuring out that she talked to the youngest cousin... .and not the actual sister.  We made family plans based on an assumption that a 10 year old would properly pass messages to an adult.  Actual adults hadn't spoken to each other about the trip in days.  What the heck? 

I was a$$hole for asking... .and my wife berated me in front of the kids saying... ."we can all be mad about this... or we can figure out what to do... ."

I remained calm and asked my wife who was mad?  She said... .you are!  Clearly you are... .What the heck?  I said I didn't understand how that was so... .and I would be happy to describe my emotions to her... .if she would like... .but that my goal was to keep our kids occupied... .and figure out if the trip is really going to happen.

Silence... .

I asked her if she was mad... .  Shockingly... .and a good sign... .she clearly said "yes... .and I think it is perfectly fine that I am mad... "

I said... ."I don't blame you for being mad... .it is perfectly understandable... ."

Subject dropped... .as phone call came in... .and... .from what I could hear... .wife was questioned about why they weren't at house.  Why she didn't just come on in.  "Because the door is locked... .it's not our house... .we don't have a key... ."  Some snippy exchanges... .and we drive to there house.

Sadly... .there is one more "backstory" to add... maybe two... .sigh.

Back in a bit... .


I kept my mouth shut.