Cluster B traits and idealization

[skittles22]

I have read up a lot about the Cluster B disorders and have found striking similarities, lots of extra helpful information that sounded exactly like what I went through but with a different name and gender. They say that a sociopath also love bombs, and from what I've read they say the exact same crap that my exBPD said, word for word. The only difference is that they're mostly men and never really loved you. But when I read about BPD love bombing, the BPD's themselves and even some non's say that it was real and they really did love you. I don't know what to think. It's still bugging me thinking whether she meant a single word she said.

"I feel like I won the lottery!" "You're so perfect" "You're so good at X" "I've never felt so happy before" etc. do I allow myself to feel good about what happiness I might have brought her or completely detach and view her as a parasite? She moved in with the new guy after only 2 months so I guess she's got him locked down with the same declarations of love. But I keep getting this nagging feeling wishing at least some of it was real, like it meant something... .she's probably done this to a lot of guys. I just don't know what to feel anymore.

[NYMike]

I had the same issues and feelings.

I have come far in T and realized it was not ''love''.Mine was based on need and feelings at the time.Mine was an opportunist and calculated so much.She is a manipulator,Pathological lier,conning woman,drug addict and she steam roles her way through peoples life including her own family.

She is a good actress and she is very pretty.So men fall into this trap.Her looks do not help her because men fall victim to this.If she was ugly,she may hit a bottom faster.I am coming out of the FOG and realize I was just another ''sugar daddy''.Sad but true.This hurts a lot.

I am for sure as I continue to learn,this for her was not love,respect,care,kindness and all the qualitys that make a loving partnership.It was REAL for me.Thats why it hurts me a lot.

It was more my fantasy and denial.I am in love with the idea of being in love.

[Gonzalo]

Everything I've read says that they mean every word completely, utterly, and deeply when they say it, but later on their emotions end up rewriting their memory and twisting everything around. Feel good about what you did - if you're a good person doing things to help someone you care about, that's a positive in your book. The fact that she only temporarily got the enjoyment from what you did and later forgot about it or turned it around when her condition drove her to paint you black doesn't magically negate what you actually did.

What I try to remember is that I did all that I could - during the relationship I put in more energy, money, and love than I could hope to sustain, and even at the end after I split things off I made sure things went as smoothly as possible and left her a soft landing. I was a good person who went above and beyond what anyone could expect me to, and I left her in better condition than when she came to me. The fact that she doesn't appreciate that (and even thinks I'm selfish) is completely irrelevant; I'm the one who has to live with me, and I am not going to let her problems declare that the good things I did don't mean anything.

[HappyNihilist]

Hello there, aswipe, and welcome!

I have read up a lot about the Cluster B disorders and have found striking similarities, lots of extra helpful information that sounded exactly like what I went through but with a different name and gender. They say that a sociopath also love bombs, and from what I've read they say the exact same crap that my exBPD said, word for word. The only difference is that they're mostly men and never really loved you. But when I read about BPD love bombing, the BPD's themselves and even some non's say that it was real and they really did love you. I don't know what to think. It's still bugging me thinking whether she meant a single word she said.

All the Cluster Bs do share traits. A big difference between BPD and ASPD and/or sociopathy is that people with BPD do have a capacity for empathy, while people with ASPD do not.

This doesn't mean that the borderline's capacity for empathy is consistent, however. A person with BPD is fixated on their own emotional survival at all costs, so there are times when they literally don't have the ability to empathize because all of their emotional and mental energy is focused solely on themselves, leaving no room to consider others' feelings, motivations, etc.

It's sort of like a pet dog who suddenly feels threatened -- survival instincts kick in, and the same dog who usually snuggles up to you might, in that moment, lash out at you.

For a borderline, feelings are facts. This accounts for how quickly a borderline's reality can change. They don't have a consistent narrative or sense of reality. When a borderline is in the idealization/attaching phase, he/she is feeling love, excitement, hope, etc. These feelings are real for them. When, later on, the devaluation starts, these negative feelings are also real for them (and, since they are bad feelings, must be projected externally onto the partner).

Borderlines don't generally set out to "trap" someone, play with them, and break them. Sociopaths do. Borderlines are searching for emotional attachment and survival. Their methods of control and manipulation in an intimate relationship are closely paralleled.

Sociopathic love-bombing and BPD love-bombing look similar because they are -- they're both attempts to draw a partner in. It's the intent that differs.

[Blimblam]

Unless of course you get somone with the BPD/aspd comorbid.  Even then it will largely depend on which spectrum controls them more.  But a person with BPD/aspd will in my experience go to great lengths to hurt people for pleasure of hurting someone alone which falls into the category of sadism.  Even still the person I speak of with the BPD and aspd traits does not seek out relationships just to break the other person. 

The aspd is a spectrum as well with psychopaths falling in that spectrum. Not all aspd are psychopaths.

[christin5433]

Everything I've read says that they mean every word completely, utterly, and deeply when they say it, but later on their emotions end up rewriting their memory and twisting everything around. Feel good about what you did - if you're a good person doing things to help someone you care about, that's a positive in your book. The fact that she only temporarily got the enjoyment from what you did and later forgot about it or turned it around when her condition drove her to paint you black doesn't magically negate what you actually did.

What I try to remember is that I did all that I could - during the relationship I put in more energy, money, and love than I could hope to sustain, and even at the end after I split things off I made sure things went as smoothly as possible and left her a soft landing. I was a good person who went above and beyond what anyone could expect me to, and I left her in better condition than when she came to me. The fact that she doesn't appreciate that (and even thinks I'm selfish) is completely irrelevant; I'm the one who has to live with me, and I am not going to let her problems declare that the good things I did don't mean anything.

Sounds like you did things like me. I did all I could while being called I am selfish controlling blah blah. I kept the high road and now it's a month and a half and I can sleep most nights with the feeling I never reacted to the crazy ending. And my ex is a extremist in her actions to provoke reactions . I think a part of me just going thru the motions w tact is I felt depleted. She finally wore me down. I still have little contact and I stay within the words of no underlying motives. Just say what I need and if she attacks I just stop the discussion. I'm trying to heal and I don't want to have massive hate for her. I'd like to be in a place eventually I am ok with this r/s gone and I am a better person from it? If that's possible . Kudos to kindness

[Madison66]

What I try to remember is that I did all that I could - during the relationship I put in more energy, money, and love than I could hope to sustain, and even at the end after I split things off I made sure things went as smoothly as possible and left her a soft landing. I was a good person who went above and beyond what anyone could expect me to, and I left her in better condition than when she came to me. The fact that she doesn't appreciate that (and even thinks I'm selfish) is completely irrelevant; I'm the one who has to live with me, and I am not going to let her problems declare that the good things I did don't mean anything.

This is a really refreshing, wisdom filled post!  I got to a point in my recover and detachment after my b/u with uBPD/NPD ex gf of 3+ years that I just accepted that I couldn't or wouldn't be able to make rational sense of her behavior, her treatment of me and the roller coaster ride of a r/s that went down.  Like you, I loved her and in the end left her in a much better place than I found her.  As the r/s wound down and the emotional and eventual physical abuse ramped up, I did all I could for her and her kids  while knowing that I couldn't remain in the r/s.  I attempted to rationalize her behavior and didn't at all have the "tools my toolbox" to possibly know how to deal with things other than to leave.  Again, I'll never totally understand it but I somehow found the strength to leave and stay gone.  

I still think back at times of what went down, but there no longer is all the energy there once was around the thoughts and memories.  The memories and thoughts may be triggered by me being in a new r/s (healthy and good!) where the final chapter in my healing is learning to love and trust again (especially myself!).  :)id she "love bomb" and even act like a sociopath at times?  Yes.  Were there a ton of emotionally disturbing events during the r/s?  Yes.  Was I an active participant?  Yes.  :)id I finally choose the most important relationship (me!) when I left?  Yes.  :)id I have to go strict n/c, even with her kids?  Yes.  :)o I wish them all the best?  Yes.  Is my life better than it was a year and a half ago?  Yes!

[Mr.Downtrodden]

My uBPD ex GF became my girlfriend because of the continual "promise then re-neg" modus operandi of someone else, who, as it now turns out, is an expert female sociopath, devoid of any feelings whatsoever for love.

This woman claimed to have deep feelings, an emotional connection she could not find, or reach with her then boyfriend.  So, she dumped him, citing me as the impetus to take action.  Once she 'detoxed' from the  upheaval, we would be together.  But we had not met in person as yet.  And, every time I suggested an opportunity, she would backpedal with an excuse.  Yet she would continue to love-bomb via messages, phone chats and love letters.  After 6 months of this back and forth "I want for us to meet, but the situation with work, family etc prevents it right now... ." I bailed and met someone else, in person, who turns out is a BPD, serial cheater and liar.

The other woman suddenly became worried and frightened that I had gone to another.  Why wouldn't I?  It was her fault.  She admitted blame but kept giving me subtle guilt trips and verbal jabs with her correspondence.  As it eventually panned out, she was lying to me the entire time, presenting a false persona; she was back with her old BF, even engaged, and only used me for manipulation fun and games on line.  She never had any feelings for me.  I did eventually meet her (and contacted her ex fiance, who dumped her - she claimed she dumped him) and saw her in action". By then I understood she was a total manipulating fraud.

My ex, on the other hand, did have feelings for me.  But she can't seem to help herself overcome or control her impulses and excessive drinking which plays into her BPD.

so, yes, there is a difference between the two types of love-bombing.  One is real, however abnormal, and the other is empty, a notion used to for selfish personal pleasure where causing pain to another is a "high".

[Hope0807]

Aswipe (pretty comical username btw  ),

I learned quickly that my uEx's traits lean quite heavily into Psychopathy, with certain overlap into Borderline for sure.  I have read a TON at this point and every moment of my years with him becomes more clear (and haunting) with each read.  But the validation and knowledge does give me peace and some of my power back also.

I have read that these disorders are "spectrum" disorders for the most part.  Sociopath, Psychopath, ASP and others have distinctions and much overlap.  Current research have these personality disorders applied to both genders.  The statistics are interesting.  For example, depending on the diagnosing physicians, some would simply note a more volatile male with Sociopathy or Psychopathy and a volatile female with Borderline.

My ex was and is a predator and discovering that truth has shattered me and forever twisted my view on the world.  It has also strengthened my faith and compassion for myself in many, many ways.  I feel better equipped in so many ways.  I'm far from fully healed but have come a very long way.

I know with clarity these days that my mother was a deeply tragic Borderline.  Although I suffered tremendously, emotionally, as her only child, she was not a danger to me or society.  She kept me safe and loved me the best she could with what she equipped with.  My exH is Psychopath with strong Borderline characteristics…he IS a danger to society and was a danger to me.  I would have been dead within the next 12 months for sure, had I stayed.

If you're interested in some starter info about the overlap with these personalities, I recommend: Robert O'Hare's "Without Conscience" and Joe Novarro's ":)angerous Personalities".  Empathy doesn't have to be completely missing for these individuals to go through life doing serious damage to those they become intimately involved with.

It has been a beautiful awakening to watch my own personal focus shift from him and his chaos to ME and my need to FIX "MY" patterns so that they can finally be healed instead of repeated.  I no longer carry sympathy or compassion for someone who has preyed upon me and devastated my physical and emotional health so greatly, with utter disregard (devalue stage, yikes).  That choice is my own and not shared across this site, but respected nonetheless.  Compassion and sympathy is something I extend to myself and dole out to others around me with new, cautious optimism.  I am learning to Observe not Absorb those around me who are troubled…and possibly "dangerous" to my soul.

I wish you peace and personal power.  

I have read up a lot about the Cluster B disorders and have found striking similarities, lots of extra helpful information that sounded exactly like what I went through but with a different name and gender. They say that a sociopath also love bombs, and from what I've read they say the exact same crap that my exBPD said, word for word. The only difference is that they're mostly men and never really loved you. But when I read about BPD love bombing, the BPD's themselves and even some non's say that it was real and they really did love you. I don't know what to think. It's still bugging me thinking whether she meant a single word she said.

"I feel like I won the lottery!" "You're so perfect" "You're so good at X" "I've never felt so happy before" etc. do I allow myself to feel good about what happiness I might have brought her or completely detach and view her as a parasite? She moved in with the new guy after only 2 months so I guess she's got him locked down with the same declarations of love. But I keep getting this nagging feeling wishing at least some of it was real, like it meant something... .she's probably done this to a lot of guys. I just don't know what to feel anymore.

[Gonzalo]

I did all I could while being called I am selfish controlling blah blah... .I'm trying to heal and I don't want to have massive hate for her.

My ex would call me selfish, so I'd point out that I was paying for a place to live and most/all of the bills (depending on time), that I was the one who always tried to make things right after fights, that I was the one who put up with shouting, and that we pretty much always did whatever thing she wanted to do. You know how she would respond? "Oh, well you're just trying to buy me," and somehow those two fit together. I once was accused of being controlling for telling her that whatever worked out with her job about time off to go on a vacation with me was fine, and that if she couldn't go it wasn't going to be a big deal to me. Once she had a huge rage over me eating a sandwich that I had in the car and that she couldn't eat anyway. The thing is, in looking back at this stuff, it's obviously crazy talk. I'm not over it, but one thing that helps is just realizing that it comes from stuff that happened decades ago, while it was directed at me it has nothing to do with anything I did.

I think I may have the 'not hating' easier than some people because I've significant struggles with depression and anxiety. One of the techniques I use to keep it under control is to treat the part of me that gets too worried or tells me I'm a failure as though it's a different person that lives in my head and attacks me. I see her issues the same way, that the problem is the BPD thing poking around in her head and not the core person who I still care about. I can acknowledge that she's really bad for me to be in a relationship with, and that she did a lot of bad things so that I have no temptation of going back, but I don't have to think of her as being actively evil or manipulative.

I will get mad when I remember stuff and rant about it to a few close friends, but I hold it against BPD-her and not real-her, if you see what I mean. Really after reading about how BPD works inside of someone's head, I feel sad for her and understand why she can't acknowledge the issues.

[myself]

I hold it against BPD-her and not real-her, if you see what I mean. Really after reading about how BPD works inside of someone's head, I feel sad for her and understand why she can't acknowledge the issues.

BPD makes it harder to do so, but the 'real-her' could choose to face this.

[jhkbuzz]

What I try to remember is that I did all that I could - during the relationship I put in more energy, money, and love than I could hope to sustain, and even at the end after I split things off I made sure things went as smoothly as possible and left her a soft landing. I was a good person who went above and beyond what anyone could expect me to, and I left her in better condition than when she came to me. The fact that she doesn't appreciate that (and even thinks I'm selfish) is completely irrelevant; I'm the one who has to live with me, and I am not going to let her problems declare that the good things I did don't mean anything.

LOVE this ^!  There is comfort in being of good character... .of keeping your integrity intact.

[jhkbuzz]

I still think back at times of what went down, but there no longer is all the energy there once was around the thoughts and memories.  The memories and thoughts may be triggered by me being in a new r/s (healthy and good!) where the final chapter in my healing is learning to love and trust again (especially myself!).  :)id she "love bomb" and even act like a sociopath at times?  Yes.  Were there a ton of emotionally disturbing events during the r/s?  Yes.  Was I an active participant?  Yes.  :)id I finally choose the most important relationship (me!) when I left?  Yes.  :)id I have to go strict n/c, even with her kids?  Yes.  :)o I wish them all the best?  Yes.  Is my life better than it was a year and a half ago?  Yes!

What a wonderfully honest and hopeful post.  THANK YOU!

[christin5433]

I still think back at times of what went down, but there no longer is all the energy there once was around the thoughts and memories.  The memories and thoughts may be triggered by me being in a new r/s (healthy and good!) where the final chapter in my healing is learning to love and trust again (especially myself!).  :)id she "love bomb" and even act like a sociopath at times?  Yes.  Were there a ton of emotionally disturbing events during the r/s?  Yes.  Was I an active participant?  Yes.  :)id I finally choose the most important relationship (me!) when I left?  Yes.  :)id I have to go strict n/c, even with her kids?  Yes.  :)o I wish them all the best?  Yes.  Is my life better than it was a year and a half ago?  Yes!

What a wonderfully honest and hopeful post.  THANK YOU!

Yes so to the point. We can go on and on about this behaviors that we chose to endure. I'm only a month Out and I am still in lots of curdling pain from grief but I'm pushing forward. I got creepy texts today name calling still out of no where. First off it was a question about storage ... .W/ cuss words. I answered politely. And at the end of this trivial transaction it was back to name calling and a whatever , whatever is her famous crappy line when she gets NO fighting back. I didn't respond ... .In r/s I'd be explaining about how she was being mean or rude or pms or can I fix this? Now I have a choice. Nah no response is my new attitude to trash talk. I can choose today! Not participate in this cruel disorder it's on her now.

[hurting300]

I was told mine was more of a sociopath... .Scary stuff.

[antonio1213]

My father is a sociopath and my mother has BPD so I can relate to this post.

My dad and mother jump from person to person but the way they experienced all the relationships is different. My dad acts very much like a immature teenage boy when he pursues girls. He says things he doesn't mean, and is very very charming, says all the right things and finally gets the girl he wants. He would date multiple women at once and honestly doesn't seem able to be in a true relationship or feel real love. I don't think he meant any of it.

My mother on the other hand I think meant everything she said but in a BPD in the moment kind of way. She absolutely "loved" her bf after her 2nd divorce (he met the need of being her rebound post divorce). She absolutely "loved" her next bf (he gave her attention when she was having self esteem issues and raising kids by herself). And she absolutely "loved" her next bf who she eventually married (He appeared rich, an had a good personality so immediate idealization of him and devaluation/break up of her old bf). She meant everything she said but as everyone knows it is all in the moment for them.

Both Sociopaths and BPD can leave relationships in an instant. They are more alike in that way than any other I think.

[Gonzalo]

BPD makes it harder to do so, but the 'real-her' could choose to face this.

I think the condition was simply too much for her, and real-her can't do it, and maybe never will be able to win. While I'd say 'won't' when I was angry, the impression that I had was of an inability to overcome the BPD, not of someone just choosing to ignore it.

I don't see that I'd gain anything by taking your interpretation, and it seems like an actively self-destructive line of thought to pursue. If I run with the idea that she just chose to do all of the terrible nasty stuff, then it removes the good person who I saw and felt and cared about. But since she was unable to overcome it, it's just one of life's tragedies, like someone succumbing to cancer.

[apple2]

I have read up a lot about the Cluster B disorders and have found striking similarities, lots of extra helpful information that sounded exactly like what I went through but with a different name and gender. They say that a sociopath also love bombs, and from what I've read they say the exact same crap that my exBPD said, word for word. The only difference is that they're mostly men and never really loved you. But when I read about BPD love bombing, the BPD's themselves and even some non's say that it was real and they really did love you. I don't know what to think. It's still bugging me thinking whether she meant a single word she said.

"I feel like I won the lottery!" "You're so perfect" "You're so good at X" "I've never felt so happy before" etc. do I allow myself to feel good about what happiness I might have brought her or completely detach and view her as a parasite? She moved in with the new guy after only 2 months so I guess she's got him locked down with the same declarations of love. But I keep getting this nagging feeling wishing at least some of it was real, like it meant something... .she's probably done this to a lot of guys. I just don't know what to feel anymore.

Hey there,

I understand your feeling. Mine also said something like "I feel like I won the lottery" bla bla... .I also tried to figure out whether he has BPD or NPD, whether he loved me but had emotional wavering or he did not love me at all. Maybe the answer BPD will give us more comfort. But then? We can not change the present or the future anyway.

Many also have a combination of BPD and NPD.

I realized that it doesn't matter what kind of illness he has, he can not bring me happiness. His focus is only his feeling, his needs, his wish,his mood... .nothing about me. I can not live like that anymore, although I deeply loved the gentle version of him.

I would suggest don't try to figure out the past. We are non-BP, so we cannot understand their world. The relationship will not work well, because they have a psychological problem and we are normal. There is a communication barrier in the relationship that we can not break through.

I want to be "selfish" this time. Just as my friend told me, whichever illness he has, he broke your heart, saying things hurt you, leaving you at the time when you needed support. Anyway, are these the traits you want from a partner. You don't need his money, you even don't need his love, the only Thing you  need is someone you can trust, but from him, what can you get?

Focus on ourselves and our own future. Whether the past is good or just an illusion, let it go. Best wishes