Projectio... Is this why?

[maxsterling]

Thought of something last night... .when the pwBPD projects all kinds of stuff onto you it feels that it is all more applicable to them and nothing to do with you. 

Example:  "You are so controlling" - yet to you they seem to be controlling.

Maybe because they are basing their universe on what they know - themselves.  So you become controlling because they can't understand any other reason why someone would behave in a particular way.  So, they automatically assume everyone else is bad and up to no good, because they are bad and up to no good, and they can't simply understand that people can have other motivations. 

Thoughts?

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[MaroonLiquid]

For the most part yes.  My wife feels so out of control all the way back to her childhood that controlling is the only way she feels in control.  I do think they pick up on subtleties very well, and then comes the projection because it is the very thing they HATE about themselves that they always find n everyone else.  The old, "Pot, meet kettle"... .

[maric]

I think you're right. And everybody does that, but not to a extreme like pxBPD. My XuBPD almost drove me crazy with this projections. Some things she said still bother me, one year out of the rs. I was labeled as manipulative and controlling; though, she decided almost 90% of the times when we're supposed to meet, not me. Since the begining I noticed that. She had an schedule for every single day in the week, sometimes for several weeks ahead. Every monday morning (it was really every monday morning) she used to say: oh, this week I have to do this and this and that, so we can meet on ... .(insert date). I was ok with that, I thought she was controlling by nature, and I accepted that. But later, I was the one controlling, in her mind.

Then I was jealous, and passive-agressive. She always used to say things about "power" in rs, and it was something I just could not get (at the time). When I wanted to discuss something, I was neurotic. When she wanted to discuss something, I was the one who was running away from problems. There was no winning.

All this situations added up to me being extremely confused and hurt. I was even questioned about my honesty, AFTER she cheated on me and left me on middle of my vacation. If this is not projection, I don't know what it is... .

[sweetheart]

Max projection as is used prolifically by pwBPD is one of a number of defence mechanisms. We all use them, but pwBPD use projection a lot.

They are projecting onto another person things they find intolerable or they can't accept about themselves. For the most part, certainly with my h they fully believe that what they are saying is true in that moment about the other person.

Your w cannot tolerate the possibility in that moment that she is controlling in relation to whatever is going on.

Projections are of course almost always negative in the world of BPD and my understanding of their need to do this, is as a form of psychological self-defence that started really early on in childhood. I believe that no one back then helped them manage or navigate negative feelings, no one said 'it's ok to feel sad, angry, scared etc.' No one helped them control and make sense of seriously scary feelings. Negative feelings are scary, especially for a child. No one validated what was normal to feel, bad as well as good.

Remember their assumption that other people are mostly bad and no good, is how they feel about themselves, but feeling like this is so awful and can be a potential trigger for past hurts so they have to get rid of that feeling at all costs.

[ColdEthyl]

I think that's part of it, Max, but part of it too is if someone else feels or does they same that they do, it gives them a frame of reference for validation. It's like... .telling themselves it's ok to think/feel this way because others do.


A recent example I can think of is when he has bad dreams. For years, he would say something like "At least I don't get mad at you for something that happens in the dream like you have"

... .I have never done this. At one point, he said his ex did. Well the last time, I got home from work and he said he was kind of mad at me all day about a dream he had. So... .years after not finding out where this was coming from... .it came out.

I think for him... .it was a coping mechanism to not feel so bad about himself... .to feel guilty about it. If he projected it on to me as well... .he doesn't feel as bad. It's like they need us, or someone... .anyone... .to help "carry' the weight.

[Notwendy]

What they are saying can be very revealing about them- these are the feelings and thoughts that they have.

As confusing as projection is to an adult, it is very confusing as a child. My mother wBPD would accuse me of things I never did, and at the time, they were true to her. Once she was late for an apt and she accused me of making her late. I wasn't even home at the time and didn't know anything about her appointment.

My H is much milder than my mother, so for years I was very hurt by some of the things he said to me about me. I could not fathom why he said these mean things. Now I realize that what he was saying said more about his bad feelings than they did me, but they were very hurtful at the time.

[sweetheart]

Notwendy makes a really useful point about using projection as a way of understanding what they are feeling. When my h is does this I too use it as a way of gauging what is going on internally for him.

And of course I am not without many flaws, so if my h accuses me of being controlling because he feels controlled then I need to examine my behaviour just in case.

[Notwendy]

Good point, Sweetheart. Another insight into ourselves is that what we find annoying in others may be about us, since everyone projects to some extent. This doesn't mean it is absolutely true. Most people would feel some revulsion where reading about a crime in the news, but something like being annoyed by neediness or fearfullness in someone may remind us about our own neediness or fears.

[frustrated one]

This thread offered me a lot of relief! I have been accused of being controlling for years. When first met my uBPDw I was extremely busy and she would make arrangements to go out with friends and get together with family and I didn't think much of it. Once life calmed down every time I tried to make plans she would always make some other priority that had to take precedence. after awhile I just gave up and let her make plans which was a bad idea. Over time I lost touch with a most of my friends. At the time I didn't fully understand what was happening, now I see that it was about Control and Isolation.

Now years latter she has really started insisting I'm controlling even though she makes all the family decisions. Also if someone asks to do something  they are pushing.

I really want to take some of my life back at least go out with friends without her once in a while but when I mention it al I get is FOG... .

[maxsterling]

I guess my feeling is this:  We all have our own realities, our own "universes".  When I meet new people, I fit them into my "universe" - that means I expect them to behave in ways that are familiar to me, want the things I want, and want to be treated the way I want to be treated.  That means, I tend to view people as somewhat good and trustworthy until I have evidence otherwise, that they aren't trying to be manipulative or evil, and that they are capable of healthy relationships.   When people act in ways outside the way my "universe" works, I get confused trying to fit their behaviors into the laws of my "universe".    So, I may assume (wrongly) over and over again that a pwBPD is capable of hearing my explanation and listening to my viewpoint on things.  Therefore, I naturally want to resort to JADE because I feel that if I could only explain my side, she will understand, and thus be in harmony with my "universe".

Let's assume pwBPD behave the exact same way as us.  The difference is that their "universe" is based on rules that are different from ours (we both base our universes on how we feel, and they feel negatively where we feel positively) - that means they naturally assume people are envious, manipulative, hurtful, and untrustworthy.  So, when we behave in a way that does not fit the rules of their "universe", they try to fit us into their categories.  This is the exact same thing we do.  So, when the pwBPD has a friend who declines an invitation to hang out, the pwBPD assumes that friend has a problem with him/her and must be filled with hate.  The pwBPD cannot see other explanations in his/her universe, because those explanations don't make sense. So, the pwBPD naturally want to resort to their coping mechanisms if anger, blame, and projection in order to get our behavior to match their "universe".  

Example:  My wife and I were talking about that roommate we had for a month and a half.   My wife feels put off by this woman.  My opinion is that this woman is a bit self absorbed, possible embarrassed or feeling shame over having to live with us, shy, etc.  I didn't view her isolating behaviors as manipulative or intentionally hurtful.  As I remarked, if she were a stranger that was renting a room from us, she would have been a great roommate.  My wife sees this differently, that this woman was constantly judging her, intentionally avoiding her, and therefore manipulative and hurtful.  

[ColdEthyl]

I guess my feeling is this:  We all have our own realities, our own "universes".  When I meet new people, I fit them into my "universe" - that means I expect them to behave in ways that are familiar to me, want the things I want, and want to be treated the way I want to be treated.  That means, I tend to view people as somewhat good and trustworthy until I have evidence otherwise, that they aren't trying to be manipulative or evil, and that they are capable of healthy relationships.   When people act in ways outside the way my "universe" works, I get confused trying to fit their behaviors into the laws of my "universe".    So, I may assume (wrongly) over and over again that a pwBPD is capable of hearing my explanation and listening to my viewpoint on things.  Therefore, I naturally want to resort to JADE because I feel that if I could only explain my side, she will understand, and thus be in harmony with my "universe".

I see what you are saying here, Max. It is the one thing I wish more than anything is to be able to explain to my husband and for him to understand. At this time, that's just not possible when I have to go through the "BPD filter"

That's what everything goes through with pwBPD is the BPD filter. He assumes the worst, he assumes the vile, he assumes the manipulative, etc etc right out of the gate.

An example I have is my Asperger's son loves to build things out of 'trash' IE egg cartons, cardboard, etc. For one, my husband hates it because "it's trash and should be thrown away". He isn't hurting anything, he isn't being loud or destructive, but these were one of the things I put my foot down on. As a result, I often have to hear about what he's doing like it's the ends of the earth. My son made himself a little workbench out of Styrofoam. He is using it as a work station, he stuck his pencils, scissors, etc into the Styrofoam as a handy place to keep his materials. He also stuck his plastic toy knife into it.

The knife to my husband=violent. He's probably going to grow up and murder us all. In reality, he's a 10 year old boy being a 10 year old boy.

I just note his concern, and move on. He's allowed to think what he wants. He's allowed to be paranoid. No matter what I think he SHOULD feel... .he isn't going to.

[maxsterling]

Ethyl - I really think that is why we are so tempted to JADE.  pwBPD is upset about something that in our minds only needs a simple explanation.  In most of our relationships, we can give a simple explanation and all is good and happy.  So we see the pwBPD getting frantic and angry.  We don't want that, so we try to give a simple explanation.  That invalidates their universe, and next all hell breaks loose. 

[ColdEthyl]

Ethyl - I really think that is why we are so tempted to JADE.  pwBPD is upset about something that in our minds only needs a simple explanation.  In most of our relationships, we can give a simple explanation and all is good and happy.  So we see the pwBPD getting frantic and angry.  We don't want that, so we try to give a simple explanation.  That invalidates their universe, and next all hell breaks loose. 

It is the most frustrating part too because it IS so simple. Most of the issues he has are... .easy. Not for him obviously, but on a nons scale it is. That's how I've tried to explain it to his family... .it's like he feels like he is stuck in a 10 foot deep hole, and it's 10 inches.

[maxsterling]

Ethyl - I really think that is why we are so tempted to JADE.  pwBPD is upset about something that in our minds only needs a simple explanation.  In most of our relationships, we can give a simple explanation and all is good and happy.  So we see the pwBPD getting frantic and angry.  We don't want that, so we try to give a simple explanation.  That invalidates their universe, and next all hell breaks loose. 

It is the most frustrating part too because it IS so simple. Most of the issues he has are... .easy. Not for him obviously, but on a nons scale it is. That's how I've tried to explain it to his family... .it's like he feels like he is stuck in a 10 foot deep hole, and it's 10 inches.

So true 

"Why didn't you wake me up this morning?"

"You didn't ask me to."

"YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN!  YOU SHOULD HAVE ASKED ME WHAT TIME I NEEDED TO BE UP TODAY! YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ME!"

Simple solution.  If you want someone to wake you up, ask someone.  Or, if you don't want to rely on another, set an alarm clock.  Never have figures out the rules of her universe where I get blamed for this one.

[ColdEthyl]

Ethyl - I really think that is why we are so tempted to JADE.  pwBPD is upset about something that in our minds only needs a simple explanation.  In most of our relationships, we can give a simple explanation and all is good and happy.  So we see the pwBPD getting frantic and angry.  We don't want that, so we try to give a simple explanation.  That invalidates their universe, and next all hell breaks loose. 

It is the most frustrating part too because it IS so simple. Most of the issues he has are... .easy. Not for him obviously, but on a nons scale it is. That's how I've tried to explain it to his family... .it's like he feels like he is stuck in a 10 foot deep hole, and it's 10 inches.

So true 

"Why didn't you wake me up this morning?"

"You didn't ask me to."

"YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN!  YOU SHOULD HAVE ASKED ME WHAT TIME I NEEDED TO BE UP TODAY! YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ME!"

Simple solution.  If you want someone to wake you up, ask someone.  Or, if you don't want to rely on another, set an alarm clock.  Never have figures out the rules of her universe where I get blamed for this one.

Ahh I get blamed for not reading his mind, too. I just don't react badly. I tell him I'm sorry he's disappointed in X or Y, let him throw his fit, and generally we move on without another word about it. I forgot his Cherry Limeade with his meal this weekend. He didn't ask for it, mind you... .but I didn't remember that's what he likes. He drank his Dr Pepper anyways after he was like grumble grumble grumble

[Meadowslark]

So true 

"Why didn't you wake me up this morning?"

"You didn't ask me to."

"YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN!  YOU SHOULD HAVE ASKED ME WHAT TIME I NEEDED TO BE UP TODAY! YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ME!"

Simple solution.  If you want someone to wake you up, ask someone.  Or, if you don't want to rely on another, set an alarm clock.  Never have figures out the rules of her universe where I get blamed for this one.

I had to log in just to quote on this. The whole projection thing is so out-of-this-world sometimes. I have had similar situations to you, Max, but with my BPDsister:

Sister was leaving to go across the country by plane on X date, wants me to take her to the airport. I can't. She lived with mom, so I tell mom that Sis asked me for a ride but I can't help, could she?

Mom asks Sis about it. Sis gets bent out of shape.

"Why did you ask me if I needed a ride?"

"Because Meadowslark said you asked her but she can't, so she asked me if I could help. Did you need a ride?"

"YES BUT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO ASK ME WHAT PLANS I HAD! YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO ASK ME WHEN I LEAVE! (for the trip that mom didn't know about in the first place) YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ME!"

(Never mind the fact that when Sis left for the trip, Mom would notice that she was gone. I mean it's so duh sometimes.)

It's like... .what?    Apparently my sister believes we should all be telepathic and just know when to ask things/when not to ask things. And like Ethyl and Max both said, most of the time the pwBPD's issue is very simple, requiring a very simple explanation that non-BPD people would be perfectly satisfied with. They can't handle that.

This thread is so insightful. Sometimes I forget that BPDsis is just... .incapable of handling logic and simplicity. You guys came up with the perfect example: they feel like they're in a 10 foot hole but it's actually 10 inches. I never thought of it that way! 

[maxsterling]

The one I am running into lately is her being hungry.  39 year old adult, hungry, and that is my problem  .

Hungry - eat something.  There is plenty in the house.  Simple solution?

But when I suggest things to her, she gets upset with me.   

But hunger really isn't her issue.  The issue is that she can't decide what to eat.  She's got all these things going on in her head - she is trying to lose weight, she is trying to not snack or eat unhealthy and she wants to eat with me.  Compound that with the low blood sugar and irritation of being hungry, and somehow the simple solution is beyond her grasp.

this actually happened a few weeks ago.  She hadn't eaten all day because she could not decide what to eat.  So, I suggested things to her, she said she felt overwhelmed, had a complete nervous breakdown as I tried to explain she needs to eat something because her blood sugar is too low.  I suggested a banana. She was unsure.  So, she called her sponsor, got the same advice, she ate a banana and a protein bar, felt better, and I cooked dinner for her.   

[Notwendy]

I think the strangest one I remember is when I came home from school early ( I was a teen) and found mom snooping in my room. I had no idea she was in there, and she had no clue I was walking in. She had a drawer full of notes and letters ( no internet or texting then) and had them all out and was reading them.

Now, I know some parents check on teens, but this was probably a regular thing but I didn't know at the time. I didn't say anything, I just looked shocked.

Mom, caught red handed- began raging at me for walking in on her! But all I did was walk in my room. She was in my room, and in my stuff- and she started raging at me for doing that to her.

I wish I understood what was going on back then, because it really confused me.

[ColdEthyl]

LOL Max!

Mine has refused to eat because the times he wants to go into the kitchen... .my brother was in there. So, instead of just waiting for him to finish then go in... .he just refuses to go in there. "every time he wants to go int he kitchen someone else is in there"

He's starved all day because my brother might have eaten a leftover he wanted. He didn't tell anyone he wanted it... .it didn't have his name on it. When I said fine I'll tell him not to eat this or that... .he would get mad and say no don't do that. "if he wants it that bad, I wont stop him I'll starve"

I started on the side telling my brother to wait a day or two before eating leftovers in case someone else wants it. He started do that... .and stuff started to get thrown away because H wasn't eating it.

FML.