How much of your pwBPDs behavior stems from deep seated shame?

[waverider]

Just reading an article on this site:

Shame, a Powerful, Painful and Potentially Dangerous Emotion

I thought I would highlight a section on shame:

Unlike guilt, which is the feeling of doing something wrong, shame is the feeling of being something wrong.

Characteristics of Shame

Some characteristics of adults shamed in childhood from "Shame & Guilt: Masters of Disguise” by Jane Middelton-Moz.

~Adults shamed as children are afraid of vulnerability and fear of exposure of the self.

~Adults shamed as children may suffer extreme shyness, embarrassment and feelings of being inferior to others. They don't believe they make mistakes. Instead they believe they are mistakes.

~Adults shamed as children fear intimacy and tend to avoid real commitment in relationships. These adults frequently express the feeling that one foot is out of the door prepared to run.

~Adults shamed as children may appear either grandiose and self-centered or seem selfless.

~Adults shamed as children feel that, "No matter what I do, it won't make a difference; I am and always will be worthless and unlovable."

~Adults shamed as children frequently feel defensive when even a minor negative feedback is given. They suffer feelings of severe humiliation if forced to look at mistakes or imperfections.

~Adults shamed as children frequently blame others before they can be blamed.

~Adults shamed as children may suffer from debilitating guilt These individuals apologize constantly. They assume responsibility for the behavior of those around them.

~Adults shamed as children feel like outsiders. They feel a pervasive sense of loneliness throughout their lives, even when surrounded with those who love and care.

~Adults shamed as children project their beliefs about themselves onto others. They engage in mind-reading that is not in their favor, consistently feeling judged by others.

~Adults shamed as children often feel ugly, flawed and imperfect. These feelings regarding self may lead to focus on clothing and make-up in an attempt to hide flaws in personal appearance and self.

~Adults shamed as children often feel angry and judgmental towards the qualities in others that they feel ashamed of in themselves. This can lead to shaming others.

~Adults shamed as children often feel controlled from the outside as well as from within. Normal spontaneous expression is blocked.

~Adults shamed as children feel they must do things perfectly or not at all. This internalized belief frequently leads to performance anxiety and procrastination.

~Adults shamed as children experience depression.

~Adults shamed as children block their feelings of shame through compulsive behaviors like workaholis, eating disorders, shopping, substance abuse, list-making or gambling.

~Adults shamed as children lie to themselves and others.

~Adults shamed as children often have caseloads rather than friendships.

~Adults shamed as children often involve themselves in compulsive processing of past interactions and events and intellectualization as a defense against pain.

~Adults shamed as children have little sense of emotional boundaries. They feel constantly violated by others. They frequently build false boundaries through walls, rage, pleasing or isolation.

~Adults shamed as children are stuck in dependency or counter-dependency.

This article struck a chord with me and tied up some loose correlations with my partners sense of shame which at times overwhelms her.

It would interesting to see if the members on Staying can see these processes within their own relationships.

Waverider

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[sweetheart]

This is my h on a page verbatim. :'(

Shame is at the very core of his being, he believes he is the problem, he is defective that he is in all ways rotten as a human being. His actions, thoughts, feelings, words and perception of the world are all tainted and distorted by shame.

Since his breakdown two years ago shame is what has been uncovered and is now all that is left behind. Shame is in his every breathe, it's ownership of him is his default position.

I do not know if it will ever be possible for him to move beyond this.

I have moved beyond it, but the reality for our marriage is that sometimes it feels as though there is nothing good left to fill the space that shame occupies.  

That was 'full on' for 10am here in the UK waverider, try not to throw a curveball like that again for a while.

[enlighten me]

I would have said it all applied to my exgf apart from the constant appologising.


she never appologised for anything.

[Notwendy]

I think that shame can also be behind the not apologizing.

My H doesn't truly apologize in full. He may do it halfway so long as he can also blame me " I see where I may have ... .but YOU did... ."

His father was extremely shaming and invalidating. I think the kids realized that if they didn't admit to something, maybe they wouldn't "get it" from dad. So to my H, apologizing is admitting.

[waverider]

I think that shame can also be behind the not apologizing.

My H doesn't truly apologize in full. He may do it halfway so long as he can also blame me " I see where I may have ... .but YOU did... ."

His father was extremely shaming and invalidating. I think the kids realized that if they didn't admit to something, maybe they wouldn't "get it" from dad. So to my H, apologizing is admitting.

Defensive denial and projection of blame is fear of their shame being exposed.

Blame triggers shame as the action was not bad they are bad. They cannot be to blame without being entirely bad.

It is easier to accept blame when you know you are not really a failure it was just a glitch. To a pwBPD the issue was not a failure, they are a failure, hence acknowledgment becomes a complete criticism of them as a person.

[waverider]

Making these connections, what can we do to ease these feelings of shame?

Knowing these origins, and no doubt hearing our partners accusations about their upbringing, how do we stay out of the triangle and inadvertently feeding their victimization stance? Triangulation is all the harder to stay out of when you can see nuggets of truth in the 'victims" claims.

Validation helps, but if not used carefully it can validate the victim mentality

I will admit this is an issue I am wrestling with at the moment, so I dont have all the answers.

[Notwendy]

I have to say, this astounded me about my H.

He has the most confident (not arrogant) calm and accomplished persona. Many people admire him. We met in school and he was one of the best students in the class. It never occurred to me that he would have such deep feelings of shame and feeling as if he is defective and a failure.

I don't feel the need to hide behind a strong front. If I make a mistake, I do feel shame, but I have learned to recognize this and will apologize- even if it isn't easy to do.  I don't know why that is. I was raised by a mom with BPD and one would think I would be the one to do this. However, I became more like my father- the caretaker, sensitive, aware. These traits can also lead to relationship dysfunction.

In the early years of my marriage, my H convinced me that he was the one that was fine- the strong, unemotional. logical one and that I was the problem- emotional, irrational. It was easy for me to buy into this. His family looked so normal compared to mine. Probably most families would. There were times I thought I was acting like my mother, and this was frightening to me, so I went into therapy where I dealt with a lot of my childhood issues.

What made my relationship worse was that I believed my H's confidence. He convinced me that he didn't need validation. He was constantly invalidating me, and was verbally abusive. However, if you asked him, he felt that I was the one who was attacking him. I thought any criticism would not affect him- he seemed to be the iron man to anything I mentioned- and responsed with put downs. I eventually responded the same way, thinking he just didn't care. How ironic.

[maxsterling]

In the case of my wife, I think over 99% of her behavior stems from deep shame.  Even the stuff she labels as "PTSD" is probably rooted in shame.  The only things I can think of that are "BPD-type" behaviors that probably aren't shame related are phobias.

Take, for example, her issues with money.  She would claim it was because her mother was poor and her dad a penny-pincher.  But I see a deeper shame component there - she feels shame over not being able to work, wasting the money she has earned during her life, her enormous student loan dept, the things she did to earn money, etc.  So, when the issue of money comes up, the ugliness comes out rather than her face that shame. 

[MaroonLiquid]

I agree that almost all of my wife's behaviors stem from shame.  After reading the triangulation article yesterday about the persecutor, victim and rescuer.  It hit me like a ton of bricks and realized a lot about myself as the rescuer.  When I read the part about the persecutor, it was my wife to a T! 

Here is an excerpt:

          Like the other roles, the Starting Gate Persecutor is shame based. This role is most often taken on by     

          someone who received overt mental and/or physical abuse during their childhood. As a result they are 

          often secretly seething inside from a shame based wrath that ends up running their lives. SGPs, for

          survival sake, repress deep-seated feelings of worthlessness; they hide their pain behind a facade of

          indignant wrath and uncaring detachment. They may choose to emulate their primary childhood abuser(s),

          preferring to identify with those they see as having power and strength - rather than become the “picked

          on loser” at the bottom of life’s pile. SGP’s tend to adopt an attitude that says; “The world is hard and

          mean ... .only the ruthless survive. I’ll be one of those”. In other words, they become perpetrators.

          They “protect” themselves using authoritarian, controlling and downright punishing methods.

I have been told a million times, but when I read this, I finally realized that her behaviors, blaming me, and putting it on me weren't really about me.  At the same time, they have affected me.  It is the only way she knows how to cope with having a worthless excuse for a father growing up, and then marrying a man the first time who turned out to be the same father as she had.  I'm neither of those men.  I chose late last week to step off the roller coaster and after reading that article yesterday, I wish I had done it sooner.   

Her existence is shame based, which is why other people's opinions mean more to her then mine right now.  I see that not as not caring what I think, but instead, there is only one of me and way more of them.  She is hedging her bets with people who wouldn't pour water on her if she were on fire in the event we don't work out.  Due to her giving me the silent treatment again, I have taken a big step back as to let her live with her choices of deciding to separate 7-1/2 months ago.  I'm willing to be the persecutor for now to allow her room to see the truth.

[sweetheart]

Making these connections, what can we do to ease these feelings of shame?

I suppose what I offer my h is object constancy; through this I believe there is the possibility to change the dynamic of the relationship and start to ease his feelings of shame. By this I mean that if I step out of the dysfunctional dynamic, that is in essence a replay of the core trauma over and over again then I least I no longer trigger my h's shame.

His shame still gets triggered in other ways, by other people, memories, thoughts, etc, and validation can help here sometimes, sometimes not though. Sometimes when shame is triggered the dysregulation will run it's course no matter what. The only difference now for me is I no longer stand in it's way.

[sweetheart]

ML, be prepared to accept that she will never see the truth, this is the nature of the illness.

Why are you willing to stay in the persecutor role, can you step out of this role ?

I am nothing like my h's parents or any of his previous partners either, if I were we would have crashed and burned long before now. Like you in stepping off and out of the way of the illness i took myself out of the roles of rescuer, persecutor and victim. I firmly bounced between all of them for a long while.

[MaroonLiquid]

ML, be prepared to accept that she will never see the truth, this is the nature of the illness.

Why are you willing to stay in the persecutor role, can you step out of this role ?

I'm not saying I like it, but I can't help how she sees me either.  I just mean that no matter what right now, she will see me that way.  At this moment, she is in a place where she is now fully accountable for herself, her bills and her children because separation is what she chose even though she never thought things through when she decided all this.  She was punishing me for months, and now that I am stepping out of the triangle, she will now play the victim.  I believe she will come to a place of realizing she has screwed up her life and this is not what she wants (she has told me this is not what she wants several times, but wouldn't change it).  The truth is, she didn't want to change it because she had all the conveniences of a marriage (bills paid, sex, emotional support, etc) without any of the responsiblity (not wearing her wedding ring, has me blocked/no marital status on facebook, living in two separate households, not being responsible for herself, etc.).  I enabled her (Rescuer).  Now that has changed and she is throwing a temper tantrum.  

Making these connections, what can we do to ease these feelings of shame?

Knowing these origins, and no doubt hearing our partners accusations about their upbringing, how do we stay out of the triangle and inadvertently feeding their victimization stance? Triangulation is all the harder to stay out of when you can see nuggets of truth in the 'victims" claims.

Validation helps, but if not used carefully it can validate the victim mentality

I will admit this is an issue I am wrestling with at the moment, so I dont have all the answers.

This is excellent, and something I struggle with regarding my wife.  I find it hard to validate my wife at times when what she is upset about (people persecuting her) is the same thing she does.

[waverider]

Making these connections, what can we do to ease these feelings of shame?

Knowing these origins, and no doubt hearing our partners accusations about their upbringing, how do we stay out of the triangle and inadvertently feeding their victimization stance? Triangulation is all the harder to stay out of when you can see nuggets of truth in the 'victims" claims.

Validation helps, but if not used carefully it can validate the victim mentality

I will admit this is an issue I am wrestling with at the moment, so I dont have all the answers.

This is excellent, and something I struggle with regarding my wife.  I find it hard to validate my wife at times when what she is upset about (people persecuting her) is the same thing she does.

This is were it is important to validate the feeling she is experiencing rather than the action itself."it must feel terrible to feel like someone is picking on you" vs "Its terrible someone is picking on you"

The point I was was making is it is even harder when you see someone actually is picking on them(often as a consequence of past BPD behaviors), the real issue being the pwBPD doesn't have the defenses to just let it wash but instead takes a bigger hit than it deserves... This makes it hard to hold back the rescuer in ourselves. We react validate everyones position in the drama triangle, solving nothing and making it worse.  We become another sheild for them to hide their shame behind.

[Cat Familiar]

Making these connections, what can we do to ease these feelings of shame?

Knowing these origins, and no doubt hearing our partners accusations about their upbringing, how do we stay out of the triangle and inadvertently feeding their victimization stance? Triangulation is all the harder to stay out of when you can see nuggets of truth in the 'victims" claims.

Validation helps, but if not used carefully it can validate the victim mentality

I will admit this is an issue I am wrestling with at the moment, so I dont have all the answers.

Thanks, Waverider. Great list and much of it certainly applied to me before I had several experiences with therapy, starting in my late teens. I really see these patterns in my husband, and it's true that he was severely abused by a narcissistic and very cruel father.

I agree with you about trying not to validate the victim mentality. I had an experience with this issue a few nights ago. When my husband drinks, sometimes the "poor me" persona comes to the forefront. Instead of agreeing with him or trying to validate, I completely ignored it. I didn't disengage or leave the room, I just kept up pleasant conversation and changed the subject and asked him questions about other things. I think he just wanted to be comforted, but I didn't want to play into his drama, knowing that he would feel even sorrier for himself if I did. So I validated him in a different way, by engaging him in conversation and being interested in his opinion on something entirely unrelated to his "woe is me" persona.

[waverider]

Thanks, Waverider. Great list and much of it certainly applied to me before I had several experiences with therapy, starting in my late teens.

Which brings me nicely to the next point I was going to raise.

We often hear that we get involved in the dysfunctional relationships because there is something a bit off about us, for example we may be in need of validation ourselves so we are blind to BPD idealization and mirroring, and soak it up.

So my next question is do you see any of these points potentially applicable to yourself. Do we have any underlying shame issues, maybe this is what motivates us to prove ourselves by becoming rescuers?

[Notwendy]

I don't think I felt a lot of debilitating shame about myself, however, I did feel ashamed of my family. Having a mom with BPD was something I didn't want people to know. I thought if they found out, they would not like me.

I think what was "off" about me was not that I was a rescuer because I wanted the validation or because of shame, but because I did not know how to be anything different. My dad was a rescuer. I think he liked the validation. My mom could turn on the idealization and it worked all the time. I was a rescuer because that was the way I got my dad's approval- to take care of mom so she'd be in a better mood.

I was the perfect person to match with my H. I idealized him- everyone did. He had a competent, almost perfect persona. Everyone thinks he is amazing. He never idealized me. I had to work very hard to get his attention. He loved that too. I didn't know any better. I had to work hard to just survive in my family. I didn't notice much raging or dysregulation until the kids came along. Then he painted me black.

After some hard work in codependency 12 step and ACOA groups, I have regained my self esteem and don't consider myself a rescuer. I don't like being one. It was just what I was trained to do. My tendency to idealize people was based on being amazed at anyone who showed affection to me since I hardly got attention at home. I don't think it was a black/ white BPD thing. I don't see people as being all black or all white. It just seemed overwhelming to get affection when I didn't grow up with much from my parents.

Had I not had my issues, I don't think we'd have been together. I don't think another person would have been so co-dependent. He would not have liked that. He had plenty of women to choose from. Someone else would have stepped in. I could have dated other people too. I was attractive, but didn't think it. My self esteem was low. I was a walking target for creeps. I was not allowed to say no to my parent's mistreatment, and didn't realize I could.

There are a lot of good qualities in my H and I am grateful I didn't end up with someone as affected as my mother.

[formflier]

Making these connections, what can we do to ease these feelings of shame?

Knowing these origins, and no doubt hearing our partners accusations about their upbringing, how do we stay out of the triangle and inadvertently feeding their victimization stance? Triangulation is all the harder to stay out of when you can see nuggets of truth in the 'victims" claims.

Validation helps, but if not used carefully it can validate the victim mentality

I will admit this is an issue I am wrestling with at the moment, so I dont have all the answers.

Is it important to know the details of the shame?  Or just know that this dynamic was present in their childhood?  I suspect this went on in my wife's upbringing.

I can still see the interactions between her mom and her... and her other siblings. 

Her mom is very quick to correct... .but there is a hint of "how could you think that?" in her correction... .vice a loving "do you think this is a better way... ." type of correction.

Basicially... .I think this was present for my wife... .but I have no knowledge of any big incidents.

Is there a difference in a couple big incidents... .versus a general patter of interaction?

[formflier]

So my next question is do you see any of these points potentially applicable to yourself. Do we have any underlying shame issues, maybe this is what motivates us to prove ourselves by becoming rescuers?

In my FOO... .appearances were a big deal.  In general that is not a bad thing... .the way you look and carry yourself... .says a bunch about what is going on inside you.

However... .when you are not able to say what is going on inside you... or you are forced ("you shouldn't be that way... ." to appear a way that you don't feel... .as in stuff your feelings.  I think that contributed to me becoming me and liking the attention that my wife sent my way... .

I'm also a strong... confident guy... .can make decisions and do things... she validated that... .liked that.  I was proud of taking care of her.

However... .what she started out seeing as strong and confident... .has now turned into "controlling and smothering".

So... .it's interesting to think about if I have "shame issues".  I'll have to think about that some more.  There definitely was a dynamic of pretending to feel a different way than I did... .but I'm not sure if I was trained to be ashamed of the way I was.   Hmmmm

[Notwendy]

I think growing up in families where people are expected to put on a front is shaming, because it gives the message that who you are isn't acceptable.

I think it is a continuum. Most people put their good side on in public- you dress up for a job, act polite. It's when you feel you must hide yourself and can't speak honestly to the people you are closest to that becomes a problem. The idea of being conditionally loved instead of unconditionally loved by parents can be shaming.

It could be subtle. Kids make mistakes. Does the parent talk about the mistake, or criticise the child? Is it "I don't like it when you hit your sister" or " You idiot, stop it right now, what a brute you are".

My mom's side of the family is pretty self absorbed. They don't actually criticise me, but when we are together they mostly talk about what they are doing. Then, they ask a question and before I get a chance to tell them what I am doing, they cut me off, or say they are busy. So I can see where this is invalidating since they don't actually listen to what I have to say.

My father in law says things like "you will never ammount to anything, idiot" If anyone brings up an idea, he will criticise it. Having met him as an adult, I thought he could be a jerk but I can see how growing up like this as a small child wanting dad to love them would be brutal.

[MaroonLiquid]

We often hear that we get involved in the dysfunctional relationships because there is something a bit off about us, for example we may be in need of validation ourselves so we are blind to BPD idealization and mirroring, and soak it up.

So my next question is do you see any of these points potentially applicable to yourself. Do we have any underlying shame issues, maybe this is what motivates us to prove ourselves by becoming rescuers?

     I know that as a child, I was expected to look perfect, act perfect, and be perfect, yet my dad was/is a sociopath, very narcissistic who screws everyone, even stealing from his family and kids if necessary.  He "provided" well when I was a child, but it was all a scam and a glass house.  My mom was an enabler who is extremely narcissistic, judgemental and thinks when someone messes up, then they weren't meant for you and you go on the the next relationship (married four times and dates unavailable/married men).  My dad cheated on and abused my mom, abused me, they did drugs together, and yet I was the one they expected the most from to keep up the appearances of a great home.  When I was six, my mom took me to a hotel to confront my dad and his girlfriend while they were having sex, saw my dad beat my mom, and walked in on them doing drugs all between the ages of 5-6 years old. They got divorced when I was 14 and then my dad went to prison for two years.  He paid child support about 25-50% of the time.

     My outlet growing up was sports.  I threw myself into them around 6 years old and said to hell with everything else.  I did just well enough in school growing up to keep myself eligible to play.  Sports and video games kept me out of trouble and drugs growing up and honestly thank God for them.  I was naturally very good at sports (especially football), however, nothing was good enough for my dad/mom.  When I was on the field/court, everything else faded away for that short time.  I could score three touchdowns in a game, but they will talk about the lack of effort I gave on one play.  The escape mentally (dissociation maybe?) has always been a reason I was so involved in sports/coaching (minor, reason, but has helped me and therapeutic to help and mold young people), especially for the last 7 months with what is going on with my wife. 

     My wife had a very similar home life growing up.  Her dad was a narcissist who expected all his kids to be perfect (son of immigrants from Europe) and beat her mom.  He provided for them, but was never home.  Her mom was an enabler and when they divorced, he fought their divorce all the way to the state supreme court where she is from.  He never paid child support (owes about 15,000) , and talked my wife into living with him from 15-18 to have his child support reduced.  He has always put her in no win situations, for example, a couple of years ago he wanted her to try and get insurance on a second property of his in her home state that was condemned (she works in insurance, and even though she knew she couldn't, she tried anyway to please him).  My wife worked three jobs through college to pay for it herself.  She then married a deadbeat who owes her about 40,000 in child support who never worked during their marriage and hasn't seen his kids but one hour in the years they have been divorced.

[Cat Familiar]

We often hear that we get involved in the dysfunctional relationships because there is something a bit off about us, for example we may be in need of validation ourselves so we are blind to BPD idealization and mirroring, and soak it up.

So my next question is do you see any of these points potentially applicable to yourself. Do we have any underlying shame issues, maybe this is what motivates us to prove ourselves by becoming rescuers?

Yes, yes and yes! Feeling so unsure of myself from being criticized so much as a child by my mother, I was bullied by other children. I had few friends, no siblings and very little interaction with anyone but my parents, who were both socially inept. Things changed in college and I became popular, which surprised me, but probably only due to my appearance, because I certainly didn't have much social skills.

My first husband, also a pwBPD, moved into my life and next thing I knew, we were living together then married. He started off adoring me in a way that no one had before (the painting white period). That didn't last long and soon the verbal, emotional and physical abuse began. After enduring that for many years, I ended the marriage and began a relationship with my current husband, another pwBPD who also painted me white--extremely white, more bright and gleaming white than I ever knew possible.

In retrospect, had I learned social skills from my parents, had encouragement instead of devastating criticism, had more experiences with friends and extended family, I would have been a more emotionally healthy child and I would certainly not have gotten together with husband #1 and I would have been more able to see the emotional lability of husband #2.