Idealizing Women, odd topic but I need truth.

[Reecer1588]

This topic title kind of speaks for itself. I'm 19 years old, 6'0 tall, 190 pounds. I go to a prestigious liberal arts college, I am tril-ingual (English, Russian, German), was top in the state of Texas in Tennis in juniors, I come from a wealthy background though I really don't rub it in people's faces. I've studied in Germany, spoken in front of hundreds of people in political debates (Junior state of America).

What was the point of all that? "I KNOW" that I have a lot to offer. I "know" that there are probably a lot of girls out there who would be attracted to me, and yet, I have very low self esteem.

In my younger years, I was heavily bullied. No point into getting into that except to say it happened, and it affects me.

I don't feel like I'm attractive to women. Never have. Always feel like other guys "naturally" are more "entitled" than I am to have girls attracted to them. It surprises me when a girl honestly does show me attention. In fact, I actually just had a girl (attractive, smart, intelligent) straight up tell me "I always had a crush on you, after reading about what happened with this last girlfriend, I wish I were your first girlfriend" Needless to say, I Was Shocked.

Here's the point

I idealize women.  I do not think that I "deserve" an attractive, self reliant, intelligent woman. I naturally think I'm "not the one girls actually want."

In high school, here's my track record:

• My very first middle school girlfriend became an alternative, militant atheist.



• I lost my virginity in a threesome at 15 years old with a nymphomaniac and her perverted boyfriend



• The next girl I had sex with ended up pregnant later from a 26 year old man



• The next girl also ended up pregnant later with a different boy (our age)



• The next girl, my long time relationship and why I'm here, was much more attractive than previous girls, but of course I wouldn't be on these forums if I didn't get involved with her.

I know this sounds weird, but in a lot of ways, I see "good" women as this rare commodity. Something I'm neither deserving of, nor do they want me.

Does anyone relate to me?

And to the women reading this: Have you any words for me?

With love,

Reece  

[Turkish]

When I hear "you have a lot to offer" it makes me cringe. Partly due to similar reasons, but partly when I step back and think, "is that all I am, am idol to serve someone else's needs?"

What does someone else have to offer me? How about some reciprocity?

[Reecer1588]

When I hear "you have a lot to offer" it makes me cringe. Partly due to similar reasons, but partly when I step back and think, "is that all I am, am idol to serve someone else's needs?"

What does someone else have to offer me? How about some reciprocity?

If my perception of love and relationships weren't screwed up... .I wouldn't be here 

I appreciate your candidness.

Cheers. Reece.

[lbjnltx]

From this woman's perspective:

If someone tells me "you have a lot to offer" it means they see that I have good qualities and appreciate them.

If someone idealizes me (not just women in general) it means they want to put me on a pedestal... .that is what all women want... to be admired by their love, cherished and exalted above any other woman.

Personally... .I've never put much stock in men who "need" me.  It is much nicer to be wanted than needed.  Don't get me  wrong... .everyone has needs and some needs are only met by others... .I just don't want someone to be with me because they "NEED" someone to take care of them.  I've raised my child... .I don't want to raise another one.

My late husband didn't always get the subtle distinction between the two. He was actually hurt when I told him once that I am not his wife because I need him to take care of me... .men generally want their wives to be dependent upon them (sense of security) and there are many women who like that dynamic... .and sometimes that dynamic keeps women in relationships that are unhealthy... .they become resentful... .he becomes resentful... .you get the picture... .

Don't know if I have helped or confused.

lbj

[Reecer1588]

From this woman's perspective:

If someone tells me "you have a lot to offer" it means they see that I have good qualities and appreciate them.

If someone idealizes me (not just women in general) it means they want to put me on a pedestal... .that is what all women want... to be admired by their love, cherished and exalted above any other woman.

Personally... .I've never put much stock in men who "need" me.  It is much nicer to be wanted than needed.  Don't get me  wrong... .everyone has needs and some needs are only met by others... .I just don't want someone to be with me because they "NEED" someone to take care of them.  I've raised my child... .I don't want to raise another one.

My late husband didn't always get the subtle distinction between the two. He was actually hurt when I told him once that I am not his wife because I need him to take care of me... .men generally want their wives to be dependent upon them (sense of security) and there are many women who like that dynamic... .and sometimes that dynamic keeps women in relationships that are unhealthy... .they become resentful... .he becomes resentful... .you get the picture... .

Don't know if I have helped or confused.

lbj

More confusion... .sorry.

No I mean with all the girls, even my non girlfriends, I have always put them on a pedestal. Always treated them like they were above other women, and frankly, to me, they were. And I KNOW I was a good boyfriend to my first 1.5 year long relationship.

My question was really is if this Pedestal Putting/Idealization of girls/women is healthy mentality or not.

Regardless, it will probably always be my disposition. I can not change this fundamental aspect of me.

[vortex of confusion]

My question was really is if this Pedestal Putting/Idealization of girls/women is healthy mentality or not.

No, it is not healthy. I have been married to my husband for almost 17 years. He idolizes me and puts me on a pedestal (even though his actions don't show it). He blames himself for everything. Even when I want and need to take responsibility for something, he somehow finds a way to blame himself. It is frustrating for me because I don't feel like I get to be fully human. Not sure if that makes sense. I want to be able to be real rather than try to live up to somebody else's ideal.

You can respect women but don't idealize them. The relationship between men and women should be complementary and reciprocal. It is very difficult for that to happen if you are putting yourself beneath somebody or putting them above you.

All of the things that you listed in your first post don't really matter. Your worth comes from the fact that you are a human being. A person's worth should not come from job or money or accomplishments or anything like that. The fact that you are human being is what gives you worth.

[lbjnltx]

I take my values and ideals from my faith.  My faith tells me that the man is the head of the home and the wife is to be cherished and put on a pedestal (what that means to each of us is open to interpretation).

One would not expect an unhealthy person with BPD to have a healthy perspective or interpretation of the roles of the marriage partners.

That was not how I understood your question... .running things through a BPD filter.

[eeks]

Here is my advice.  Have you ever had therapy?  Find a good therapist who is a psychoanalyst or psychodynamic therapist, emotion-focused therapy, attachment theory, or something that deals with relationship patterns.

My experience with therapists is that some of them give you superficial advice (maybe wanting to "get you out there taking action and improve the immediate problem and then deal with the deeper stuff", or maybe misreading you and not realizing that your situation is the result of deep seated patterns).  However, from what I am hearing from you, this sounds like a long term pattern that you feel results from some childhood events (the bullying, which I assume is relevant because otherwise you would not have mentioned it)

So how to find a good therapist?  Good question.  I did by a series of flukes.  My family doctor referred me to a teaching hospital that has a reputable psychiatry program, and I ended up in a particular group therapy program because they didn't know where else to put me (true story) and it turned out to be the best thing I could have done, it wasn't a magic cure but got me well on my way in terms of insight.  It was a psychodynamic/interpersonal group therapy.  Also I felt a connection with one of the facilitators who could not be my individual therapist because he worked for the hospital, but he referred me to a couple of other therapists and that is how I found my current one.  

I am a bit envious, but not in a bad way, I just think you are so lucky to have the opportunity to do this personal healing work so young.

I can recommend a few books as well.  

Keeping the Love You Find by Harville Hendrix - he describes how that person we fall head over heels for (he calls it an "Imago" match) is likely to possess both the positive and negative characteristics of our parents/caregivers.  The reason is that every single one of us was wounded in childhood (he describes the specific ways that happens through attachment failures, and socialization where our life force gets squelched), and that we are all looking for "that person who is going to make it all better" and apparently the reason we pick someone like the one who wounded us in the first place, is that our unconscious will only accept the love from such a person!  



(By the way, I honestly can't measure "how much" of your issues came from your parents and how much came from the bullying.  A person is a complex recipe of lifelong influences that come together to make you who you are.  The therapist at the group therapy program even asked me about my grandparents' life history.)

He describes how a committed intimate relationship brings up all the wounds from childhood, and instead of doing what many people in our culture do and thinking "I picked the wrong person, I have to start over with someone else," that this happening may mean you picked the right person and if you can stay the course you can end up with something far more fulfilling.  Of course, this doesn't mean you stay with abusers or addicts, but he does make some pretty bold conclusions (not in nature but in scope) in the sense that no matter how much therapy you do, how much work on yourself, you are going to attract someone who will wound you just like your parents did, the only difference from the personal growth work that you do prior is the degree of intensity.  I don't agree with every word of this book, but I think it is an important reference in terms of having a realistic view of the challenges one is going to face even in a "good" relationship.

Wired for Love by Stan Tatkin - when I first skimmed this book I thought "ahh, this isn't relevant to me, this is all tips for committed couples who want to improve their relationship and I'm single" but I read it again, more thoroughly, and it's referencing, in an unfortunately kind of superficial way but a good primer to this different way of looking at relationships, ways that partners' attachment wounds get triggered in relationships and how to soothe each other.  

In relationship conflict, our fight-or-flight reflexes get triggered the same as if there was a physical threat (I wish I understood more of the science behind this, but I think it's something to do with how utterly dependent an infant is on the bond with their parent for survival, but apparently attachment styles persist into adulthood).  The triggers are different for every person (because of their upbringing and traumas).  The problem of course is that these survival reflexes are really not useful for creating connections with others and wise problem-solving, so that is why he is teaching couples how to soothe each other.  

Hold Me Tight by Sue Johnson - I've only read the excerpts of this, but it seems like it's along the same lines of Tatkin's book.  If you can get past the initial tone of "relationships are so great for your physical and emotional health" without feeling bad that you have not acquired one of these magic potions for yourself!  I get the sense that she had to "oversell" the idea of relationships being important, because she writes that at first she had difficulty getting the book published because the dogma of the psychological profession was that adults don't need others and they stand on their own two feet.  Anyways, from the excerpts it looks like this book is yet another angle on creating connection in relationships, and understanding and resolving conflict when it arises, not just superficially but understanding the "dance" or the underlying dynamics.  

I have also come across a couple recommendations lately of A General Theory of Love by Lewis, Amini and Lannon.  I read it in 2011, and I don't remember much from it, I think because I had not read as many books of that type I didn't have a context into which to fit the information.  But it's up the same alley as these other books, if a bit more technical.

[eeks]

You can respect women but don't idealize them. The relationship between men and women should be complementary and reciprocal. It is very difficult for that to happen if you are putting yourself beneath somebody or putting them above you.

I was thinking about just this when I wrote my reply.  That he seems to have been left with some pretty rigid ideas about people being "good" or "bad" or "better than" or "worse than" (I was bullied too and I have a bit of this, I think having experienced cruelty where you are being told or implied "we are hurting you because of these shame-worthy characteristics that you have" can leave a person with this)

But the point being that good therapy would get a person to a point where they can feel connections with other people, and move towards deepening them, period.  No too good for, no not good enough for. Goes for friends, relationships, family, whatever.

All of the things that you listed in your first post don't really matter. Your worth comes from the fact that you are a human being. A person's worth should not come from job or money or accomplishments or anything like that. The fact that you are human being is what gives you worth.

My mother says this to me all the time, and it makes sense intellectually, but I still don't feel worth.  I believe our feeling of worth comes from our experiences in relationships with others.  To be fair it does take a certain degree of commitment to honesty and emotional self-awareness (including skills like Nonviolent Communication) acted on in their relationships on the part of the person who wants to feel more worth.

If you think that sounds too "dependent" on others, think of BPD.  We know that pwBPD are lacking a stable sense of self and one of the causes of this is having a parent who is scary or unpredictable.  Because the parent is not there for them consistently, they literally don't have someone to "bounce off of" to create their own sense of self.  

[Skip]

No I mean with all the girls, even my non girlfriends, I have always put them on a pedestal. Always treated them like they were above other women, and frankly, to me, they were. And I KNOW I was a good boyfriend to my first 1.5 year long relationship.

My question was really is if this Pedestal Putting/Idealization of girls/women is healthy mentality or not.

Regardless, it will probably always be my disposition. I can not change this fundamental aspect of me.

Reecer1588,

High points for being open and honest with yourself and everyone here. That's a great starting place.

You probably will want to rethink all of this. You do not earn or achieve love - you share it with an equal. Its very complex and at the same time, very simple.

Skip