The "50% blame" rule

[maxsterling]

In another thread, we were discussing how pwBPD will rarely accept 100% of the blame for something, and will want to assign half the blame to you (or someone/something else).  We also discussed how pwBPD feel that every incident deserves blame, and rarely chalk something up to a misunderstanding, a pure accident, "___ happens", etc. 

My question is the pwBPD accepting only 50% of the blame when you feel they deserve much more of the blame okay with you?  The reason I bring this up is that my wife is to the point where she recognizes her role in things, and will readily (after awhile) accept she is 50% at fault.  But when I read other stories on here, many other people's spouses rarely apologize or accept even 15 of the blame.  I'm happy that my wife will recognize and admit to her role, but sometimes I feel frustrated that she is passing on part of her responsibility to me or to others, when I feel she needs to shoulder the majority. 

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[EaglesJuju]

I think it does not matter whether it is 50%, 10%, or 100% of the responsibility. It is how we perceive the situation and I do not think there is cut and dry answer to this. This leads me to a few questions:

If our pwBPD is taking ownership of their behavior, isn't that good enough or do we need for them to be responsible for more?

How much responsibility are we, the non-disordered partner, supposed to take?  

Why should we think that our pwBPD should be responsible for more?

If we are radically accepting a pwBPD's behaviors, should we not expect for them to take responsibility for anything?

Why should it matter how much responsibility is assessed to each situation?

[bluejeans]

How much blame are we, the non-disordered partner, supposed to take? 

This is a big question for me. I am blamed constantly. I am very careful about what I say and do at all times so I will not upset her and yet I am still blamed constantly. She does take some responsibility for some things but in the end it is all my fault.

[Notwendy]

I don't know if it is adequate to accept 50% blame, but taking the step to accept even a part in it is huge. I don't think pw BPD can apologize fully, because I think to them, to do so, feels as if they are anhilating their whole self. I realize that even a tinge of criticism or the thought of it can trigger a full dysregulation. I got annoyed at my H yesterday as I was trying to do something and he was interrupting me, and even the idea that he was annoying me led to a verbal outburst ( which I ignored).

I know that my mother feels badly about some of the things she did when I was younger. However, she has not apologized fully for them. If I think about it, for her to admit to what she did would bring out more shame and self loathing than she could deal with. Occasionally she expresses some vague regrets, which I have to consider that for her to even have regrets is huge. It means she knows what she did.

She is now realizing that something she did has had some long term consequences that she doesn't like, and she knows she is the cause of it. When my father died, in a rage, she painted me black to several family members, approaching them from the standpoint of being a victim. It was all lies. I know about it because some family members told me about it. When I approached her, she denied it. Because of  this, some family members believed her and cut off contact with me. Basically, it magnified the loss of my father to have several family members cut off contact with me at the same time.

She recently tried to apologize and it was the strangest thing. Instead of admitting to what she said- she said she thinks she might have said something but can't remember what it was. This, I realized, is the best apology she can do, not that I think it is OK, but that I realize it's a giant step for her, and I can reinforce this by an accepting it instead of being blaming. However, this doesn't mean I enable it by fixing the consequences by somehow trying to befriend these family members and take the blame for what she told them. It had nothing to do with me. I am pleasant to them if we are at the same family event and don't make it worse, but they believe her and I can't change that. She's seen that the consequences is that I am estranged from these family members and I can't undo what she said to them. Maybe some day she will.

[formflier]

 

First thing that jumped out at me... .was hoping we could use a different word.

Blame... .man... .that seems harsh.

Responsibility... .seems "mature"... .or better

FF

[maxsterling]

Good questions, Eagles.  I think sometimes I have a problem because the subject isn't dropped.  So if it was as simple as, "I'm sorry, but you are partially responsible, too" and then we move on, it may be different.  I think I may feel resentful because after the fact it gets brought up again, she feels like she reconciled her half, but my half gets brought up again.  And it's not just when it's me that is the other half, but when she is talking about a friend or someone else in the third person.  Take for instance, her dad.  Sure he may have been a jerk about something, and she will own up to her half of being a jerk to him, but after that I hear for weeks/months/indefinitely about her dad's behavior over and over with no further recognition of her own role.  

[formflier]

 

How have you tried to disengage from that?



"We've already discussed that... ."

"what new information do you have on this matter... ."

Those kinds of things.

From what I remember reading about your wife... .she can be obsessive... .so... .probably likely hard to get her to come off a subject she wants to stick to

[joshbjoshb]

In another thread, we were discussing how pwBPD will rarely accept 100% of the blame for something, and will want to assign half the blame to you (or someone/something else).  We also discussed how pwBPD feel that every incident deserves blame, and rarely chalk something up to a misunderstanding, a pure accident, "___ happens", etc. 

My question is the pwBPD accepting only 50% of the blame when you feel they deserve much more of the blame okay with you?  The reason I bring this up is that my wife is to the point where she recognizes her role in things, and will readily (after awhile) accept she is 50% at fault.  But when I read other stories on here, many other people's spouses rarely apologize or accept even 15 of the blame.  I'm happy that my wife will recognize and admit to her role, but sometimes I feel frustrated that she is passing on part of her responsibility to me or to others, when I feel she needs to shoulder the majority. 

You gotta be kidding! 50% is like living in paradise for me

My wife is never to blame for anything. She does nothing wrong, ever. I always do things wrong because I don't care, or even worse - I do it intentionally

It's funny, and sad. But if you have a spouse that will apologize that's already great. Don't underestimate what it means!

[Hmcbart]

I agree with Eagles. It really doesn't matter what percentage of responsibility (ff) they accept. How we handle the situation is what will determine the discussions we have with our BPDso that will follow.

I have found that my wife will never accept responsibility, she will only assign it to someone else (usually me). The closest I've ever gotten to her taking responsibility for her actions was being told that she only said mean things to me because I made a mistake and filled out an incorrect form for our sons Cub Scout stuff. Basically if I wouldn't have accidentally made a mistake, she wouldn't have had to verbally abuse me.

I have worked on these things with my own therapist and have found that I am improving greatly in how I handle these situations. Basically I accept the fact that she is going to blame me for how she is feeling about something. But I don't have to accept the actual blame. That's all on her. If she accepts some responsibility great, if not, well that's ok too. I just stay true to myself and no longer accept something that doesn't belong to me.

I'm still learning to apply this and sometimes I still get a little sideways over it, but not near as often as before. I will tell you that she will stay angry longer now because I won't accept responsibility for something I didn't do but that's a whole different story.

[Reforming]

One of the things that I learned form my relationship is that the notion of blame isn't very helpful.

When we ascribe blame we are usually being punitive and inevitably it makes the people we're blaming defensive and resistant to change. Things end up polarised and nothing gets resolved

I think personal responsibility is a much more helpful and constructive notion. Each one of us is responsible for our choices and actions.

No one makes us else responsible for our choices or actions, but we are and that includes BPD etc. Acknowledging responsibility for our actions and choices is the first step to taking control of your life

But it's just the first step. I think taking responsibility for your actions and choices also means more than recognising how it impacts on others, it means changing it when required

Actions speak much louder than words

[vortex of confusion]

As I read through this thread, I am reminded of something that I have done with my kids. When they get into a fight or something gets broken, they will start pointing fingers. Pretty typical kid behavior. What I try to do is tell them, "I don't really care who is to blame. What I care about is how we can fix this/change it."

And, I have told my husband that a time or two. ":)oes it really matter why we are in this situation or who is to blame? How is that going to help us move forward? Is it possible to identify what each of us can do moving forward without getting stuck on whose fault it is?"

I think part of the reason that some people try to assign blame is because of the notion "If you broke it, you fix it." If they didn't break it and can assign somebody else the blame/responsibility, then they don't have to try to fix it or work on it.

I wonder if there is a way to shift the conversation to, "This is broke, what can be done about it."

[lostandunsure]

I have to say, this is a big topic for me. I end up coming out of almost every conversation feeling like I'm left with the "blame" for something. I don't know how many times I've heard that if I had said something differently, she wouldn't have dysregulated. I've been blamed for weather, for actions of things that I wasn't present for... . pretty much anything. It gets old very quickly.

The problem that I face is that she blames herself as well. It's like she's trying to place the blame with anyone else, while at the same time taking it all at the same time. So, we both end up feeling like crap. She's trying to shift the blame that she feels and I can't make suggestions or corrections because she already feels terrible, so anything I say makes things worse.

All that being said, I have the most success (not always, but the best chance) with steering the conversation away from blame. I've even said, "blame isn't effective, lets work on the problem" or something to that effect. Sometimes it works, it depends on how far into her emotions she's gone. Blame just means that at least one person is going to end up hurt.

[ColdEthyl]

I wonder if there is a way to shift the conversation to, "This is broke, what can be done about it."

I Like that, VoC. I have found anything I say that takes "you" statements out goes a lot further with my dBPDh. Lately, my H has been accepting responsibility... .even has gone so far as to volunteer apologies!  Changing the way I say thing has helped tremendously.

As far as before this... .lolololol noonononono... .no he never would accept ANY blame, let alone apologize. He still tries to dance around things, or "moonwalk away" as I put it from thing he said/did. But the for the most part, I let that slide because at the end of the day it doesn't matter. It's usually over something small.

[maxsterling]

Last night was a rough one, but took a different dynamic.  We have to send out thank-you notes for our wedding.  I dread it, because I know that my wife will dysregulate.  If we could work together, it would be an okay task.  But instead, we sat down to do it, all I heard were complaints, blame, and etcetera directed at me.  I asked her bluntly if she wanted to do this now or not.  I also asked if she wanted my help or not, saying that I am not going to work with her if she continues to blame me for stuff.  She got mad, accused me of trying to "punish" or "parent" her.

But later she revealed more of what was really going on (more related to the facebook/text message she was engrossed in the whole day), and then felt worthless about herself, then asked me this:

her: "Am I getting better?"

Me: "What do you mean?"

her:  "At being nice to you... ."

Wow.  Incredibly self aware!  But at the same time a little scary that she is that self aware, but still deal with this kind of behavior on a regular basis.  After that comment, she then blamed her behavior on hormones, diet, the action of a friend, etc... .

[ColdEthyl]

@Max yeah... .sometimes mine will do that too. Like... .for a second there he will admit it, then go blame something else for it. Like that hat before we went on our trip... .the reason we got turned around in an unknown city the next day is because of his hat he couldn't find.   

They try to take it on... .then the feeling are too much and they try to push it back out again.

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, I agree that personal responsibility(FF) is a better term, but I must admit that I feel blamed, a lot. I think blame is something that gets thrown at you, and personal responsibility is something you take yourself? At least that's my take on it.

My husband is finally talking about "not blaming me", and "not judging, or assuming", and this is after just a couple DBT sessions. I think he gets the concept, but putting it into practice has not happened yet. Hopefully, he'll be able to. At least he knows he "should". That it's healthier. At least he's learning the lingo, and that gives me hope. I'm so tired of having to watch my every word, and him still flying off anyway, yet never believing ME when I explain things he misinterprets/misunderstands. All in good time, I hope.

[vortex of confusion]

her: "Am I getting better?"

Me: "What do you mean?"

her:  "At being nice to you... ."

Wow.  Incredibly self aware!  But at the same time a little scary that she is that self aware, but still deal with this kind of behavior on a regular basis.  After that comment, she then blamed her behavior on hormones, diet, the action of a friend, etc... .

I get asked that question a lot. My husband's latest thing is to ask for a report from me about how he is treating me and the kids. Sometimes, it feels like I am being put on the spot because I want to validate him. I want to acknowledge the areas where he has improved. At the same time, I don't want to give him the impression that everything is okay again. Yes, things are better but that doesn't mean that either one of us gets to "relax".

[Oooohm]

Max

I get what your asking. We as individuals are responsible for 100% of our own "stuff". In NORMAL relationships 2 x 100% = 50% each. My guess is (Because my uBPDw does this also) she read this somewhere so is willing to take 50% of the blame for all the turmoil caused by her (Sound familiar).

Be thankful she is willing accept that much.

[maxsterling]

I don't want to argue semantics here regarding the definition of "blame" - but the reality (as I see it) is that whether we see it as blame or want our partners to accept a certain amount - THEY think this way, and that is what frustrates me.  So, I may be wanting to move forward, yet my wife is wanting to divide up blame.  I agree that blaming does no good, and I think I do my best at not blaming my wife for any issues.  It's just frustrating when she wants to blame me for a part in something that I really had no control over except that I was in the room.  It's frustrating even if she wants to blame me for half and I know full and well I had nothing I could have done differently.  But like I said, the real frustration is that it doesn't end there.  She will sure bring it up in future conversations. 

Can I walk away and refuse to participate in those conversations?  Sure.  But I feel like a broken record here, and she interprets my refusal to participate in the same circular conversations as controlling behavior - and I am lucky if all hell doesn't break loose at that point.

[vortex of confusion]

Well, I agree that personal responsibility(FF) is a better term, but I must admit that I feel blamed, a lot. I think blame is something that gets thrown at you, and personal responsibility is something you take yourself? At least that's my take on it.

I have been reading and rereading this statement.

I have a muddled up thought about it.

Personal responsibility is good. The problem that I have with it is that I have a tendency to take personal responsibility for things that are NOT my responsibility. If somebody takes my husband's parking place at work, it is not my responsibility to soothe him and make him feel better. If he is upset with somebody else, his relationship with that other person is NOT my responsibility. That is between him and the other person.

My convoluted thought is that even looking at whose responsibility something is can be confusing when dealing with a person that doesn't understand the concept of stepping up and saying, "Hey, I did this. Now I want to make it better." My spouse and I have actually had arguments over who was going to take the blame for something. There was a conversation that I was trying to have with him about my part in things. He wanted to argue with me and tell me that nothing was my fault and that the only reason I did what I did was because of him. It was frustrating because I was trying to own my part of things. He was trying to take personal responsibility for ME. That has been a back and forth sort of thing between us over the years. If I had tried to blame him, he probably would have gotten upset and turned it around on me. It is classic push/pull where whatever I say is going to be contradicted.

I have gotten to a point where I don't even want to have discussions about who is responsible for stuff. It exhausts me. I just want things to be better. Discussing blame, responsibility, or anything of the sort seems to prolong the agony.

Max posted while I was posting so I am going to add that it is really a no win situation. What are the options? Participate in the conversation and have all hell break loose. Or refuse to participate in the discussion and have all hell break loose. She is right. You refusing to participate in the same circular conversation IS controlling behavior. It is YOU controlling YOUR behavior because you do not want to listen to the same stuff over and over again.

[maxsterling]

Max posted while I was posting so I am going to add that it is really a no win situation. What are the options? Participate in the conversation and have all hell break loose. Or refuse to participate in the discussion and have all hell break loose. She is right. You refusing to participate in the same circular conversation IS controlling behavior. It is YOU controlling YOUR behavior because you do not want to listen to the same stuff over and over again.

I don't know how many times I have sat and listened while she blamed her dad, a friend, ax boyfriend, boss, or what/whomever for the crappy day/life she has.  Of course I get tired of hearing the same thing over and over.  Sometimes, I get exhausted and try and change the subject.  Sometimes I get exhausted and tell her I am tired of rehashing the same thing, listening to the same rant again (I say it in nicer terms).  One time I tried to tell her to take a break from her rant so we could eat dinner, and all hell broke loose and I called the police.   Or the other extreme was when we were on "date night" last Saturday, and she tried to start a conversation about a "what if" from 20 years in the future.  I told her that we were on a "date" and I would rather talk about what we have today rather than what may happen 20 years from now.  She agreed.  Of course, 30 minutes later was another "what if" about the future... .

[Grey Kitty]

her: "Am I getting better?"

Me: "What do you mean?"

her:  "At being nice to you... ."

I remember when my wife went through a transformative experience, and kept asking me if I saw how she was changed. For a long time, my answer was "I believe you feel changed, but I haven't seen different behavior yet." Eventually she had another such experience, and I really did notice the change--she had managed to let go of a huge amount of self-hatred, and stopped trying to project it on my. She also stopped trying to be abusive toward me!

I've got no idea if/when your wife will make changes like that.

However I can say that in the intervening period while my wife was making internal changes or getting ready, I did find these forums, build rock-solid boundaries, and start validating her a lot more.

Can I walk away and refuse to participate in those conversations?  Sure.  But I feel like a broken record here, and she interprets my refusal to participate in the same circular conversations as controlling behavior - and I am lucky if all hell doesn't break loose at that point.

If you refuse to participate, you are free of it.

And she will probably accuse you of being controlling. (It isn't valid, but she will).

You don't have to participate in that either.

You are probably correct on the consequence. You would be starting to enforce a new boundary consistently. An extinction burst (aka dysregulation) is due.

Or you can just keep listening to the circular arguments and letting her blame you (if only 50%) for everything.

It is your choice.

[waverider]

Funny thing is this topic has made me revisit my use of "blame". I just realized that I rarely think about portioning blame anymore. instead my is gripe about "effort'. This is where I frustrated at times. I dont seem to thing about fault anymore.

Probably been swamped by "fault" that it has little currancy as benchmark anymore.

[Reforming]

Funny thing is this topic has made me revisit my use of "blame". I just realized that I rarely think about portioning blame anymore. instead my is gripe about "effort'. This is where I frustrated at times. I dont seem to thing about fault anymore.

Probably been swamped by "fault" that it has little currancy as benchmark anymore.

This really strikes a chord with me wave rider

There was so much blame swirling around my relationship that by the end I felt utterly allergic to it.

I just wanted to find a way forward together that would allow us to work through our problems, but I never managed to get my ex to really reciprocate in terms of effort.

That may well be partly due to my failure to communicate, inspire or lead effectively, but it's very difficult to keep pushing forward when you feel smothered in blame.

I now realise that her blame triggered feelings of insecurity and self loathing in me that I brought into the relationship.

Reforming

[Reforming]

Well, I agree that personal responsibility(FF) is a better term, but I must admit that I feel blamed, a lot. I think blame is something that gets thrown at you, and personal responsibility is something you take yourself? At least that's my take on it.

I have been reading and rereading this statement.

I have a muddled up thought about it.

Personal responsibility is good. The problem that I have with it is that I have a tendency to take personal responsibility for things that are NOT my responsibility. If somebody takes my husband's parking place at work, it is not my responsibility to soothe him and make him feel better. If he is upset with somebody else, his relationship with that other person is NOT my responsibility. That is between him and the other person.

My convoluted thought is that even looking at whose responsibility something is can be confusing when dealing with a person that doesn't understand the concept of stepping up and saying, "Hey, I did this. Now I want to make it better." My spouse and I have actually had arguments over who was going to take the blame for something. There was a conversation that I was trying to have with him about my part in things. He wanted to argue with me and tell me that nothing was my fault and that the only reason I did what I did was because of him. It was frustrating because I was trying to own my part of things. He was trying to take personal responsibility for ME. That has been a back and forth sort of thing between us over the years. If I had tried to blame him, he probably would have gotten upset and turned it around on me. It is classic push/pull where whatever I say is going to be contradicted.

I have gotten to a point where I don't even want to have discussions about who is responsible for stuff. It exhausts me. I just want things to be better. Discussing blame, responsibility, or anything of the sort seems to prolong the agony.

Max posted while I was posting so I am going to add that it is really a no win situation. What are the options? Participate in the conversation and have all hell break loose. Or refuse to participate in the discussion and have all hell break loose. She is right. You refusing to participate in the same circular conversation IS controlling behavior. It is YOU controlling YOUR behavior because you do not want to listen to the same stuff over and over again.

Vortex I'm not sure it's question of having discussions about personal responsibility.

I think it's probably about living your boundaries rather than trying to defend or justify them (JADE) or despite huge provocation point the finger at your partner's hurtful behaviour. 

I completely relate to the other posters comments about being feeling perpetually blamed for everything, I call it industrial blaming. It can be so toxic and hard to get out of your system.

I think it must be very hard to live your boundaries and in a relationship with BPD, because it may well mean leaving.

[hergestridge]

"It's your fault too" a k a "You made me do it".

They know it's not the right thing to say, but they will keep finding new ways to say it. My wife once sent me a letter that said "I don't blame either of us for what happened" (regarding her own cheating).

They take a deep breath, you think they're going to tell it like it is, but then... . 

[an0ught]

Hi maxsterling,

she is accepting some part and is able to manage the part small enough so she can still cope emotionally.

That is good and not sufficient. It is an indication of where she is. As some have said paradise - I also think this is a quantum leap forward.

It is really her job to figure out where and how much to take responsibility. What you can do is being a role model. What also may help is continuous work on boundaries - my stuff - your stuff. The clearer the boundaries are the less there is confusion about responsibility. It may also help to shift the weight of a discussion from backwards blame learnings to forward looking effort.