I'm feel crushed

[PurpleSkies]

Hi all. This is me feeling pretty hopeless right now, although I know that it isn't forever. I am married to a beautiful, caring, clever, funny, deeply sensitive women who I love to the end of this earth. This same person is also very painful for me to be with on a regular basis.

We have a complicated home life. I have two girls from a previous marriage, aged 13 and 11. The girls and I speak another language at home, which is their native tongue, and they live between our house and their mum's. My wife has two kids from before herself, a boy of 8 and a girl of 11. We also have a child between us, a boy of 20 months. A beautiful wee red headed sprite.

I'm not sure where to start. We have been together since Jan 2011 and bought a house together in Dec 2012. A week after we consolidated families, in our new house, my girls said they were a bit angry and afraid of my wife. I suddenly realised, in Dec 2013- after months of criticism, angry rants, distortions, black and white thinking, being rejected for days on end, some dissociative behaviour, and hearing of occasional eating binges - that my wife may have BPD. I'm still not sure. She doesn't self harm.

We have been for counselling twice, and she discontinued both times, saying that it was too upsetting for her. She doesn't apologise for the things she does, although when I say that I am hurt by something she says, she will say things like 'I don't understand why everyone seems to hate me, when all I do is give everyone to everyone all the time' and 'I can't believe you married me when that you clearly think I am such an evil witch'.

I have read 'SWOE' and a few other books, and they have been helpful. I have tried so hard to do active listening with her, during really uncomfortable personal attacks as well, but she often doesn't leave me space to speak, and spins herself deeper and deeper into a web of pain.

I am working on mindfulness and trying to take care of myself. I miss the way we were before we moved in with one another. Lovely days, the most tender sex, so much bliss. This is mostly gone now.

Does this sound like I should be here?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[misuniadziubek]

Hi all. This is me feeling pretty hopeless right now, although I know that it isn't forever. I am married to a beautiful, caring, clever, funny, deeply sensitive women who I love to the end of this earth. This same person is also very painful for me to be with on a regular basis.

We have a complicated home life. I have two girls from a previous marriage, aged 13 and 11. The girls and I speak another language at home, which is their native tongue, and they live between our house and their mum's. My wife has two kids from before herself, a boy of 8 and a girl of 11. We also have a child between us, a boy of 20 months. A beautiful wee red headed sprite.

I'm not sure where to start. We have been together since Jan 2011 and bought a house together in Dec 2012. A week after we consolidated families, in our new house, my girls said they were a bit angry and afraid of my wife. I suddenly realised, in Dec 2013- after months of criticism, angry rants, distortions, black and white thinking, being rejected for days on end, some dissociative behaviour, and hearing of occasional eating binges - that my wife may have BPD. I'm still not sure. She doesn't self harm.

We have been for counselling twice, and she discontinued both times, saying that it was too upsetting for her. She doesn't apologise for the things she does, although when I say that I am hurt by something she says, she will say things like 'I don't understand why everyone seems to hate me, when all I do is give everyone to everyone all the time' and 'I can't believe you married me when that you clearly think I am such an evil witch'.

I have read 'SWOE' and a few other books, and they have been helpful. I have tried so hard to do active listening with her, during really uncomfortable personal attacks as well, but she often doesn't leave me space to speak, and spins herself deeper and deeper into a web of pain.

I am working on mindfulness and trying to take care of myself. I miss the way we were before we moved in with one another. Lovely days, the most tender sex, so much bliss. This is mostly gone now.

Does this sound like I should be here?

Yes. Please stay.

Firstly, self-harm is not a requirement of a BPD dx, but some BPD's do. Others don't. My boyfriend no longer self-harms since a year. I did a month ago.

She doesn't apologise for the things she does, although when I say that I am hurt by something she says, she will say things like 'I don't understand why everyone seems to hate me, when all I do is give everyone to everyone all the time' and 'I can't believe you married me when that you clearly think I am such an evil witch'.

This sounds exactly like the sort of thing my uBPDBf would say whenever I express that he's hurt me. If I am so bad, then why are you with me. He's expressed the same feelings about his exes.

Hi all. This is me feeling pretty hopeless right now, although I know that it isn't forever. I am married to a beautiful, caring, clever, funny, deeply sensitive women who I love to the end of this earth. This same person is also very painful for me to be with on a regular basis.

It's like the anthem of NON's. This very paragraph. I try to let go of the pain, but I've been reading Stop Caretaking the NPD/BPD in your life and I'm starting to leave denial. My BPD will most likely never change his ways, but I can change how I act towards him. I can be less reactive, I can take the things he says less personally.

You're not alone and you will definitely find validation and hope around here.

As long as you are making the choice to stay, you'll find support around here.

I definitely recommend reading the lessons on the right hand margin. There's a lot but each is very helpful in furthering your progress.

Toodles xx

[formflier]

Does this sound like I should be here?

Yes!    

I am so glad that you found us!  This website and the lessons and tools here have improved my r/s (relationship) greatly.   It can do the same for yours.

Don't worry so much about whether or not she has BPD... . it is clear that she has the "traits" (behaviors) and that is really all that matters... . the tools deal with the behaviors.

Please read the lesson below (should be clickable).  Check out some other lessons if you have time.  Please come back and post your thoughts.



Start here!


Since you have read SWOE... . that is a great start.  Keep it as a handy reference.

Looking forward to reading your next post!  

You are in a good place... .we will help.

FF

[PurpleSkies]

Thank you both so much  . It is really hard. Honestly, I can't think of many days when I don't have a lump in my stomach with anxiety.

How do people cope with verbal attacks? Tonight, my two girls came over, which is very stressful for Heather. She thinks they hate her. They feel judged and criticised by her sometimes, and unsafe, but they definitely don't hate her. So we were about to sit and watch a show when I said to Heather that I had forgotten that the girls had a music competition next weekend. It was on my calendar, but I hadn't seen it. I apologised sincerely. Here is the gist of what she said... .

"Once again, you fail to involve me in their lives. You are so insulting and thoughtless. Really, we have the same conversation again and again. I give up. I'm done with it."

I said, "it is really painful for you when I forget to tell you things that affect all of us. It has happened in the past, and I can understand you being angry about this. I love you and try really hard to tell you in good time about things on our calendar. I know this time, I screwed up. I've apologised and I'm not sure what else I can do to make this right, right now."

The response, "so, you've apologised and you feel bad about it. I feel like maybe I should feel sorry for you now. But this happens ALL THE TIME. I'm done with it. You can involve me or not, but I give up."

Me- "I can see you are angry about this, and I can understand why."

Heather - "Me being angry. That's your favourite thing to say, isn't it. Here we go again. I'm so sick of these conversations. Well, next time I leave you at home for a weekend, then maybe you could think for one minute about me, and go to the shop, rather than leaving it for me to do when I come back, huh? You can be so thoughtless."

The weekend she is referring to was one where I was looking after our 16 month old this whole time and wasn't feeling very well either. I'll take some of the responsibility for not going to the shop, but there was no discussion about it beforehand. I had no idea when she was going to be home. I'm not prepared for it to be "all my fault". I could tell she ploughing full steam ahead for the jugular, so I thought it was time to interject a boundary statement.

"Heather, we were talking about the music competition, and now we are on to something else. When you bring up things that happened in the past, I begin feeling very hurt." My stomach was turning into a rock.

"It is all about you, isn't it? Here you go again, telling me that I am doing things wrong. I can do nothing right! Another night ruined. You can watch the programme on your own." She leaves to go up stairs after a few more parting shots.

I go up to get an instrument and she starts laying into me in our bedroom, which is opposite my kids' room. She has no concerns for what their hear, and in the past, they have woken up after she was yelling at me in terror.

I suppose I could have just continued to empathise with her, and allowed her to blow off her steam, and not taken things personally. But it is REALLY FREAKING HARD when I have just apologised, empathised and asked for some help. Do my feelings not count at all?

I spend a lot of time thinking about leaving her now. I love her, which is why I don't. Even more important, we have a beautiful child together and I am beginning to love my step kids properly. But I'm not sure how much more I can take. I deserve better than this, and I dread the time when my girls are with us because of her behaviours. Right now, I wish I could leave her  :'(

[formflier]

 

Razorfish,

I'm so glad you are back with your second post... .      .great information and detail in there.  I can imagine the conversation... .

Unfortunately... .I've had many that were almost exactly like it.

 

I'll be back soon to work through your post and offer some suggestions... .for the moment... .please consider the suggestions and try to learn why they work... .as opposed to trying to implement them right away. 

Some of them are very important to be consistent with.

How does this sound to you?

FF

[formflier]

How do people cope with verbal attacks?

Don't participate in them... .

... .

"Once again, you fail to involve me in their lives. You are so insulting and thoughtless. Really, we have the same conversation again and again. I give up. I'm done with it."

What if you had said... ."I'm sorry you feel that way... ."  And ended the conversation... .

"Heather, we were talking about the music competition, and now we are on to something else. When you bring up things that happened in the past, I begin feeling very hurt." My stomach was turning into a rock.

Asking questions at a time like this... .is asking for a retort of some sort that isn't going to be very nice... .usually

Maybe better "I'm too upset to continue the conversation... ."  (walk away)

 She leaves to go up stairs after a few more parting shots.

Understand that the parting shots "do something" for her.  One of the keys to the "order of the disorder" is to understand they do these things for a reason.

 and allowed her to blow off her steam,  

Her blowing off steam where you can't hear it is best

I spend a lot of time thinking about leaving her now.  Right now, I wish I could leave her  :'(

This is quite normal to feel.  We can help you evaluate your options here.  

But... .here is the thing... .wouldn't you want to see how much your r/s can improve before making a decision to leave?  

We can help you get it way better... .WAY better than what you describe.

It worked for me... .and others on here... .it can work for you.

Hang in there!    

[PurpleSkies]

Thanks, FFl very much. I will.

I am afraid that I am being unfaithful being here... . She has no idea that I think she possibly has a personality disorder. But the way I see it, we are generally only as healthy as the people we are with. I've spent the last few months on Zoloft to deal with my anxiety with this relationship.

I grew up in a pretty narcissistic household. There is a lot of mental illness in my dad's side. I had a BPD girlfriend when I was 19 who scared me so bad that I didn't date for another 2 years. How did I not recognise that H had similar traits? I realise that I am only human. Too much time rescuing other people and not looking after myself. I am attracted to the emotionality, which is beautiful to begin with, and then, well, you know.

Thanks again.

And your post just a second ago is fab. Food for thought! I really appreciate it. I'm going to bed with a smile.

And Heather just came down to give me a kiss. Her way of saying she is sorry I think. Could be much better, but it is something.

Will respond properly tomorrow. It is late here.

[formflier]

I am afraid that I am being unfaithful being here... . 

Hmm... .hey... .can you explain this a bit more.  Curious what you are thinking about.

The general recommendation is that you keep your activities on bpdfamily a "secret".

Also keep thoughts to yourself about her having a PD. 

Telling a partner that is an "advanced" thing... .wouldn't try it for a long time... .if ever.

FF

[PurpleSkies]

Thanks again FF. Re being unfaithful, I guess I have always aspired to be transparent and honest in relationships. Looking after myself is important too, though. H is afraid that I and the kids, and her family talk about her behind her back, and, really, that is what I am doing here. But I am tired of feeling isolated.

I got H to agree to go back to couples counselling in a few weeks. This is a step forward.   The  guy has a lot of experience with BPD and couples counselling, and does CBT. Fingers crossed.

Re: ending conversations. I guess I'm not sure how to do it without physically leaving. Occasionally, I have said sometihihg like, "H, I am beginning to feel overloaded and am afraid thqt I may say something in anger. I love you and you deserve better than that. So I'm taking a break and going up to our room for a while."

If I were to say something like, 'Heather (not her real name, btw), I don't want to talk about this anymore' I expect I would get, "there you go again. You can say anything you like, but when I tell you how *I* feel, you tell me you don't care. Go #%*^ off to your room then".

I am guessing that this is a 'parting shot' in itself. Maybe best to ignore them? If I validate her feelings when she is angry, I have found it is adding fuel to the fire. I recognise that I can get better at defusing things though.

In terms of leaving - that is the 'easy solution' isn't it. But it isn't really. The fall out would be massive. Been there before. When I married this time, I vowed to myself that I would do everything I possibly could, on a day to day basis, to recommit to and strengthen my relationship. I'm trying so hard.

Thanks for the support, and affirming that it is right to keep activities here a secret.

[formflier]

 



Great post.

Secrets and lying are very different... .morally... .IMO.

I like saying I have private things... .rather than use secrets... .but you get the point.

FF

[vortex of confusion]

Thanks again FF. Re being unfaithful, I guess I have always aspired to be transparent and honest in relationships. Looking after myself is important too, though. H is afraid that I and the kids, and her family talk about her behind her back, and, really, that is what I am doing here. But I am tired of feeling isolated.

I have also aspired to be transparent and honest in my relationship. The problem arises when you do not feel that you can trust the other person with your feelings. In those cases, it is best to carefully consider what you share with them in order to protect yourself. This is especially important when you are reading through the lessons and trying to get a better grip on things.

If you are concerned about talking about her behind her back, then check your motives.

Are you talking about her because you are trying to bash her and get other people to agree with you?

OR

Are you talking about her because you are confused and frustrated and want help understanding her so that you can improve the relationship?

I am guessing that this is a 'parting shot' in itself. Maybe best to ignore them? If I validate her feelings when she is angry, I have found it is adding fuel to the fire. I recognise that I can get better at defusing things though.

Yes, the best thing to do is ignore those parting shots. It is an attempt to bait you and get you to re-engage.

In terms of leaving - that is the 'easy solution' isn't it. But it isn't really. The fall out would be massive. Been there before.

I have found that there are times when it doesn't matter what I say or do, there is going to be fall out. the hard part is getting to a place where the fall out doesn't get to you. It is much easier said that done and takes practice and mindfulness.

Thanks for the support, and affirming that it is right to keep activities here a secret.

I try to remind myself that it is okay if my spouse does not know every little detail of my life. I have a right to privacy. It isn't about lying or being dishonest. It is about me being an individual person with my own thoughts and ideas. As an individual, I don't have to share every single aspect of my life with my spouse.

[Hmcbart]

If I were to say something like, 'Heather (not her real name, btw), I don't want to talk about this anymore' I expect I would get, "there you go again. You can say anything you like, but when I tell you how *I* feel, you tell me you don't care. Go #%*^ off to your room then".

This struck a chord with me. I am frequently the recipient of this comment from my wife. It usually happens after I have been backed into a corner. That's also usually when I switch from SET to fight fire with fire.  I know very well when it's going to happen and try to avoid it.

I was in this situation last month and felt trapped. I ended up just sitting there and saying nothing while she verbally assaulted me.  I guess my silence ultimately won out because she took a few parting shots and walked off. I got my keys and went to the grocery store.

So how can you peacefully back out of a conversation or argument after this point? Is it even possible?

[formflier]

So how can you peacefully back out of a conversation or argument after this point? Is it even possible?

I've not found a way. 

"I can't talk about this anymore... ." and walk off is the best I can do.

It does seem to be working.

I tried the tactic of just sitting there until it was over... .but would feel horrible afterwards... .because I still hear what she said.

FF

[Hmcbart]

I have been walking away a lot lately. I know it makes things worse because the fear of abandonment is a big issue for her. Sadly I will sit there and take it after she has made the comments like Razor was talking about.

I don't know why I stay to hear her out, I know it's not going to change her actions. Typically it makes things worse. Leaving is for me to catch my self and keep from blowing up.

Biggest drawback to leaving is knowing that the kids are home. I really don't trust her to be alone with them when she does it. So I stay and take the hits and do my best to not let it effect me.

I'd start drinking to get rid of the pain but I will have to get up to take care of the kids and get them to school before I go to work and can't afford the hang over. Sometimes this life sucks. No magic pill to cure everything, no special treatment, just me trying to hang on to what little sanity I have left.

Sorry for the downer of a reply. Some days are better than others.

[PurpleSkies]

So how can you peacefully back out of a conversation or argument after this point? Is it even possible?

I've not found a way. 

"I can't talk about this anymore... ." and walk off is the best I can do.

It does seem to be working.

I tried the tactic of just sitting there until it was over... .but would feel horrible afterwards... .because I still hear what she said.

FF

Yup - When I'm feel I am being criticised for being a caring mirror instead of a sponge, and when I feel my blood pressure start peaking is when I will gently remove myself right now. I am off antidepressants, which were great for numbing the anxiety a bit. But I don't need those echoes you mentioned right now. Working hard on setting my own boundaries.

[Hmcbart]

I have set some of those boundaries. The difficult part is sticking to them. I've found that when she starts up, I can easily let her know that if she is going to criticize and belittle me, I'm going to get up and walk away.

The problem comes when it's a conversation that needs to be had and I initiate it. When she ultimately twists what I've said and then turns it all back on me. That's when I have the most trouble walking away. That's also when I will get the whole thing about how it's ok for me to say something that hurts her but when she does it I get up and walk away.

Usually at this point I'm still trying to figure out what I actually said that was misinterpreted. I'm pretty sure that I could tell her the sky is blue and she would hear me telling her she's wrong for thinking the sky is purple. But I'm the one who initiated the conversation so I feel obliged to sit and listen to her.

[PurpleSkies]

I have set some of those boundaries. The difficult part is sticking to them. I've found that when she starts up, I can easily let her know that if she is going to criticize and belittle me, I'm going to get up and walk away.

The problem comes when it's a conversation that needs to be had and I initiate it. When she ultimately twists what I've said and then turns it all back on me. That's when I have the most trouble walking away. That's also when I will get the whole thing about how it's ok for me to say something that hurts her but when she does it I get up and walk away.

Boy do I hear you! There are so many conversations that I would LIKE to have with her, but don't feel I can because I fear I wouldn't get through the second sentence.  I'm hoping, with the assistance of a therapist, that we can start to work through some of our road blocks that hurt me the most.

But I am trying something new right now.  I'm trying to be direct and to respond soon after the thing that triggered me.  Here is an example.

When we were first together, H's son was 3.5 year old.  He used to be so aggressive at times that he scared my eldest daughter, who is 5 years older than him.  Still does (emotional control and pervasive shame are real problems for him.). Now, our son - who is 20 months - is going through an aggressive phase, and gets particularly irritated when the other kids are smothering him.  This happened with the 3.5 year old (although he was much older). H said it is history repeating itself:

'It was very difficult to communicate this to you at the time as all you could see was your kids getting hurt for no reason.'

That is not all I could see at the time.  I was worried at the level of anger exhibited by H's son towards the other kids, and scared that they would get hurt, but could also see that he needed a helping hand, because it must have been painful to be him.  Here is what I said:

'I don't like hearing that all I could see was [my kids] pain in that situation. You don't have a window into my thoughts, past or present, anymore than I have of yours.'

And I got a payback, this time... .:

'I meant nothing by what I said. I just want you to know that I'm always paying attention to everybody all the time. I love you'

I didn't get an apology (never do - she apologises for being 'an awful person', not for the thing that upset me), but I think my response 'went in' this time.  A kiss, cuddle or 'I love you' are the 'apology'.  But I do know that she does love me, and that is a reason to smile.

[Hmcbart]

Razor,

I'm sorry if I high jacked your thread. After reading your original post yesterday I think it all came boiling up in me.

I'm with you on the no apologies. I think I've had one real apology in 19 years. I'm not sure if it was because she really felt bad for hurting me or just because she got caught lying to me. Granted the very next day when I was still upset she took it all back saying she didn't do anything wrong. 

As far as a kiss or cuddle as a form of apology, I'd love that. That's her validating you as best she can. I think in my house, anything that can be said or done that's validates to validate my feelings just invalidates hers.

Some days I'm at the end of my rope and just want to let go and fall. Get it over with and leave it all behind me. But I have a duty to my family, my two sons and my wife. It may be the death of me but I refuse quit. I guess after 19 years you could say I'm a bit of a slow learner.

[formflier]

The problem comes when it's a conversation that needs to be had and I initiate it. When she ultimately twists what I've said and then turns it all back on me. That's when I have the most trouble walking away.

Maybe start a new thread with an example of the twist.  We might be able to help you work through it.

I leave less conversations that I started... .because usually I'll start with a SET... .or some other validation.  I can test the temp... .so to speak... .and see if it's a good time. 

Here is the thing... .if you want them to get the message about boundaries in conversations... .it needs to be consistent.

But I'm the one who initiated the conversation so I feel obliged to sit and listen to her.

Does the conversation end up being productive when you stay?

Most of the time mine were not... .once the twisting words started.  So... .what helped me... .is once I realized... .I wan't making progress by staying... .it was easier for me to leave.

Regardless of who started it.

FF

[PurpleSkies]

":)oes the conversation end up being productive when you stay?

Most of the time mine were not... .once the twisting words started.  So... .what helped me... .is once I realized... .I wan't making progress by staying... .it was easier for me to leave.

Regardless of who started it.

FF"

That is a good idea.  I'm going to try to remember that - test the waters with validating statements and see what happens.  Recently, there were times I stayed far too long, but other times, the validation has helped.  To be honest, I think it is such an unusual experience for her that she is still not quite sure what to make of it (validation) and is testing the waters with a spear gun to see if there are any sharks about... .

A new thread on how to get talk about what must be talked about (for your sanity) would be really helpful.

And Hmcbart - I didn't see your comments as a highjack at all. Cheers.

[p.s.: I'm going to change my name, if I can, to Purple Sky - to remind myself that none of us have a definitive view of reality] 

[Hmcbart]

ff and razor:

It's never productive after she starts raging. The last time it happened I thought we made progress. She even confessed that if it wasn't for how much effort I put into the marriage we wouldn't have lasted as long as we have. I went to bed that night feeling that we actually had closure on a subject.

The next morning I got a text from her saying that she should never have asked me not to leave and that it will not happen again. I replied back telling her that I didn't understand how I woke up this morning thinking we finally resolved something during and argument and felt good. You woke up ticked off because you asked me not to leave? She re-hashed the same things from the night before asking again why I always threaten to leave. I told her to stop giving me ultimatums af stay or go and I will stop taking the go option.

The leaving she was talking about was after her ultimatums. "If things are so bad then why don't you just leave","if I'm such a bad person then why don't you just divorce me".

Starting a new thread is a good idea. I will try to come up with some examples and see how I can better communicate with her.

[formflier]

I told her to stop giving me ultimatums af stay or go and I will stop taking the go option.

This was seen by her as you tossing responsibility back at her.

Do you think you could have just let the issue "lie"... .and not toss it back. 

You also have no responsibility to "pick it up"... .or take ownership of the silly things she does.

FF

[Hmcbart]

Letting the issue drop is what I'm working on with my therapist. How to not accept responsibility for her actions, even when she places full blame on me.

I have come along way in a short time. I don't have a problem telling her friends the truth anymore either. Especially when she has made out to be such an evil person. When they ask me about it I explain what really happen with documented facts. I'm no longer in charge of making sure she doesn't look crazy.

[formflier]

I have come along way in a short time. I don't have a problem telling her friends the truth anymore either. Especially when she has made out to be such an evil person. When they ask me about it I explain what really happen with documented facts. I'm no longer in charge of making sure she doesn't look crazy.

How often do you get asked about things like this? 

You are correct that you are not in charge of making sure the doesn't look crazy... .

Also not in charge of making her look crazy.

Might now want to be involved either way... .

FF