Marriage therapy fail

[Ceruleanblue]

Formflier:

I think your suggested are great! I'm open to trying things, just to see if they work. It all seems to be a lot of trial and error. I'm definitely going to try the STOP technique, but like you, I'm going to leave off the "perhaps you are right", and let him think I'm okay with his dysregulated thinking. I don't mind validating, but I also don't want to appear to "cave in" to his every whim, because I've done so much of that. I wanted peace, almost at any price, and I think it just made his behaviors worse. I sort of just did it again, because I took down my kids' pictures, just to have peace. I know I shouldn't have, and now I feel HORRIBLE about it. I needed the picture of my son now. I put my sons' picture as my phone screensaver, and I can tell that it is bothering BPDh, even though he hasn't said anything yet.

I need to really try to just let things blow over, but I've found with BPDh that they rarely do. I wish he was the BPD type where that was the case! He seems to let resentment build and build, never let me live anything down, and the pictures have been a source of contention for a few years. He tends to wear me down. He lived with my kids for four years, and now after kicking my son out, he can't even stand a picture around? My son isn't perfect, but he really didn't do anything to deserve BPDh's behaviors towards him. BPDh seemed to take sick pleasure in targeting me and my son, while putting my daughter on a pedestal. All very BPD behaviors, or at least dysfunctional behaviors, I'm sure. People are either perfect or awful to him. He'll excuse utterly bad behavior if he "likes" you, but if he doesn't, he'll take good things, and turn them into negatives or vilify something done with good intent.

I just have to find a way to stand my ground on things that really matter to me(without being guilted). I actually don't FEEL guilty, but I do get sick of him trying to make me feel guilty. And I like that line about "I'm prepared to continue this conversation when we can both be civil"... .

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

I'm struggling with where to "make a stand"... .I suspect most of us are.

I've had a couple really bad days... .so take this post... .in that light.

Where I got to in my thinking... .was that if I wasn't able to get over it.  And it was a repetitive issue (in my case... .wife inviting people over... .letting them stay the night)... .then I need to take a stand.

Only you can figure out if picture is worth it... .or another issue is "worth it"... .

[waverider]

I need to really try to just let things blow over, but I've found with BPDh that they rarely do. I wish he was the BPD type where that was the case! He seems to let resentment build and build, never let me live anything down,

You teach him  this by caving. He knows he wins in a game of chicken, so he persists.

Pick one thing that is important and make it super essential to you that you wont back down, regardless of what happens. Use it to set a precedent. You can't draw lines in the sand about everything. First you have to demonstrate that you can stand by one.

[shatterd]

my question here is   how do you trust your partner in theropy when there proven liars? And the theropists or support system further enables it? I have ben so cheated by this   im very pissd off   Why wood a counsler enable this i dont get it

[Ceruleanblue]

Yes, I fully realize that I have enabled him to play "chicken" or be bullying to me, just because I do tend to back down to avoid fights, or if he persists long enough. It took him four years of bullying, nagging, guilting, and leaving me(then eventually we reconciled), for me to apologize to his adult daughters. I'd held out so long because 1) I didn't owe them an apology. 2) I knew it was futile, and would do no good(it didn't). 3) I knew this was just his daughters form of bullying, and gang mentality(they are likely PD too). I caved because I feared he'd leave again, because he was threatening, after I'd basically given in and met all his "demands", and he still wasn't "happy".

Guess what? He's very, very rarely happy, and it's not MY job to make him happy! I know you are right and I have to find one thing worth fighting for. So far, that thing has been this marriage. I'm not sure yet what that issue will be, but I'm sure I'll come up with one. I guess there has been one in the past, actually. BPDh got physical with my son, and as soon as I heard about it, I told him that had better never happen again. I guess he knew how serious I was, or just didn't want to risk getting himself in trouble? I did stand my ground on that.

I really should have with the picture issue too, because now I'm feeling super resentful about it. Maybe that is the key: if you are going to feel super hurt and resentful by "giving in", then stand your ground... .

[Ceruleanblue]

Shatterd:

I can identify how you feel Shatterd, as I've had four years of BPDh's therapist enabling him, and even his psychiatrist told him he should get a different personal therapist, but BPDh won't. That to me is clearly showing how codependent he has become on his therapist. He has gotten worse in those four years, and just got put in DBT therapy. I'm hoping he doesn't start his usual lies in the marriage therapy we just started. And sometimes he'll tell a half truth, or not tell the entire story, thereby trying to make me look awful, and play the victim himself. I purposely chose a marriage therapist who deals with personality disorders, and he knows BPDh just started DBT, so I'm hoping he'll see through all that!

[shatterd]

this is a hard road for sure, but mine has ended, at least for me and her as a couple, the kid thing wow still gota deal with that mess, we just had to make a choice we coodnt do it anymore, boundries were set and she broke evry one time and time again. wonder why calling her out on her bs became a worse habbit than smokeing.

[waverider]

Whether a marriage therapist can see through BPD or not, the disorder still handicaps any progress. As marriage guidance relies on negotiating a way to a smoother future. It is the negotiating that is compromised. Any agreements that can be made, which in itself is hard, will be often renegged on due to low levels of responsibility and obligation.

For a non to be able to cope with a pwBPD they have to come to accept some harsh realities. realities which are too harsh for a pwBPD to cope with. eg personal boundaries, which can be quite confronting, you will rarely get a pwBPD to agree to them, they need to be enforced. How can these be brought up in MC without triggering a defensive reaction by pwBPD?

[formflier]

How can these be brought up in MC without triggering a defensive reaction by pwBPD?

Excellent question:

This may sound a bit manipulative... .I would suggest it is dealing in a smart manner with a frustrating illness. 

Try to have discussions about values you can both agree on.  Goals you both agree on.  Then... .if someone (anyone) violates your "progress" towards those goals... .or pushes you in a wrong direction... .then you can both agree that something needs to be done.

This will work once or twice... .but once they realize that they have been "snared" in their own trap... .very likely that they will stop participating in those conversations.

My wife brought up validation and invalidation and suggested that I was doing it to her... .(invalidating).  We agreed to "get rid" of invalidation in our r/s.  I keep thanking her for her great idea... .and once she realized that she was the one doing it more than I was... .she rarely discusses it now.   

I did get some progress in her behavior out of this... .but I suspect that the frustration just found another outlet.

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

I totally agree that it's likely that due to his "BPD" traits(he was told today he doesn't qualify as full blown BPD... .just has traits... .but this same psychiatrist who also put him in DBT,did say he has Intermittent Explosive Disorder, and you'll never convince ME that he isn't full blown, and possibly even sociopathic), that marriage therapy is not going to have a great outcome.

Waverider: I'm just having very LOW expectations. For me, if we make any progress as a couple, that's okay with me. But like you said, due to BPDh's not taking responsibility, and his constant going back on agreements, it's not likely we'll make huge improvements in marriage therapy. Negotiations with my husband are nearly impossible because they make him feel "controlled". That is how even my having normal needs feels to him. He wants everything his way, in fact it's almost like he has to have things his way, or he dysregulates.

Formflier: I think I could try what you suggested, as long as it's BPDh's idea. Like if he cites something, I could say "yeah, you have a point, we should both work on that"... .that might not set him off(but it might also), but like your wife, I'm pretty sure I'd have the same outcome. He'd realize it's more him doing it, or realize I wasn't doing it as much as he thought, and he'd find something else to focus on. Goodness knows though, it seems like he thinks I'm doing things I'm not actually doing(classic projecting, because it's usually things HE'S doing to ME), so he might not actually have that realization... .

[ForeverDad]

So are you pondering whether you are "Staying"  - or "Staying For Now"?

I see the former being applicable when the other is making substantive progress, enough that there is a realistic expectation that the marriage could realistically become manageable and much less unhealthy if not better.

I see the latter as being applicable at the beginning, where the member gives some time to see if focused therapy, improved communication and coping skills make a real improvement or not.

I guess what I'm saying is that at some point you have to make the Decision... .Is my spouse making sufficient improvement to continue in Staying?  Or is therapy or counseling just treading water and the issues are still there or just being shifted around (even onto me) or masked (as in seeming normalcy)?

If you do decide Staying isn't working then you can put your toes in the water over at the Family Law board.  But be forewarned, if the marriage is likely to implode or merely break apart on the rocks, it is your responsibility to be prepared for the new issues that will arise in domestic court.  It is very different from here, the priorities and goals are almost opposites, here you are trying to make the relationship work, there you will be unwinding the relationship and trying to come out the other side as best you can.  Have you been documenting the poor behaviors, vitally necessary if there are custody and parenting concerns?  Have you been making backup copies of all important documents, deeds, titles, passports, credit and bank account records?  Have you had confidential consultations with local family law attorneys to figure out where you stand and how things are handled, what matters and what doesn't matter, in your local area?

[formflier]

 

Great questions from ForeverDad.

Ceruleanblue,

I don't want to give off the incorrect impression of my r/s... .we are much better than we were last year at this time... .much better.

I'm confident that if YOU commit to making more emotionally healthy choices for the r/s... .and for yourself... .that you will drag your husband and your r/s to a better place. 

Note:  He may go kicking and screaming... .(extinction burst)... .

This is not fair... .but I assure you... .it is

Let that sit with you for a bit... .

Please don't put high expectations on MC... .or any "one" thing. 

I found the best way to move forward in my r/s was to be ready... .and when the opportunity arrived to move one area forward... .I would put a lot of energy into that.

Trying to "create" something to move forward on... .hasn't worked too well.

So... .I think there is great value in going to MC... .for the sake of going... .that way when an opportunity arises... .you are ready to go... .vice having to establish relationships with a T.

Thoughts?

FF

[Compassion14]

Hi. Forgive me for not reading your thread all the way through and please forgive me if I appear harsh. I do not mean to be. I have been stopped in my tracks at the revelation that your BPD partner appears to have driven a wedge between your son and you... .that your bond with YOUR SON is being compromised because of your BPD. Please, please, please stop and think about that.

My BPD began to verbally attack my beautiful young daughter to me, so jealous of the attention she got. It was the most heart-breaking and utterly unacceptable thing I've ever been subjected to... .and one of the main motivations I had to end it.

I decided I never wanted to look back and realise I'd lost the close, loving bond I had with my own blood, for a mentally ill, emotionally dangerous man.

Please put yourself and your children first. You deserve it.

I know there's always so much more to it, lots to try to understand etc etc. But looking at the core facts... .I just wanted to say the above.

Good luck

C14 x

[Ceruleanblue]

ForeverDad: Well, for now, I'm fully committed to making this work. In my estimation, way more than BPDh. My parents have been married, happily for 60 years, and I was raised in a very functional home. BPDh has already left me once, after three years of threats. He left, and I think it shocked him that I filed. I wasn't supposed to do that! HE was supposed to do that! I never wanted the divorce, but I was tired of doing all the trying, only to have him leave? My life calmed down, but of course I was sad. I believe in making things worse, and I already knew he had some sort of psyche diagnosis, he just wasn't sharing.

We eventually worked out some issues, but in the time we were separated, he cheated on me(basically a few weeks after he walked out), and he'd been telling me for some time he wanted to sleep with others. I view it as cheating, he does not, but whatever. I really don't think he'll be unfaithful now, that is the last of my worries actually. What upsets me is that I met all his "demands", and he's still unhappy. I can't make him happy, and I know that, only HE can make himself happy, and work his own issues, and me work mine(working on not being codependent or let this set off my anxiety).

For now, I'm fully committed, but I know if this therapy doesn't help at all, or if he escalated again to the point of being physical, I may have to leave. I have plans for if I have to do that. We don't have children together at least, so that is something to be thankful for.

Formflier: That is exactly what I am trying to do: work on ME, and the choices I make for our relationship, and for me. I'm trying to use as many of the tools as I can, so that we can have a better relationship, and so that I can have some peace. If that means going to church alone, or walking away while he dysregulates... .so be it. I realized long ago, that this relationship is never going to be "fair", so when he said the other day that he just wanted something to be "fair"... .it was hard not to laugh. His idea of "fair" is him getting his own way, and me admitting his view of reality is right(and circumstances never play into anything for him... .total black/white thinking). I let go of almost all my expectations from him, and try not to take things he says personally. I'm learning, it's just taking some time. I never thought I was a slow learner, quite the opposite, but this is really, really hard.

I'm getting there though. And maybe his reactions are extinction bursts? I hadn't considered that. I don't think he knows how to react when I'm not reacting in the ways I used to... .

[Ceruleanblue]

Compassion14: I'm totally not offended, and you are pretty much right. My son, who is almost 17, can be rude and mouthy to ME, but he never disrespected BPDh, and my son was very pro our marriage(both my kids were). My BPDh actually tells me to "suck it up, and kiss my kids a**" in regards to his adult kids(who've done their best to drive me away and won't let me around the grandkids for no reason other than they themselves are likely PD too), but my son was treated so harshly, and really with no reason. On the other hand, by BPDh has a "weird" attachment to my 19 year old daughter, who behind his back says he's an abusive crazyman, but she knows not to disrespect him.

I let my son choose if he wanted to move with us, or stay with my parents, who we are all really close to emotionally(I'm very close to my parents), and he chose to finish out school and not move with us. I'm devastated, and I know it's two and a half years I'll never get back. I'm hurt and angry at BPDh at this, because I NEVER made him choose between his three adult girls or me, no matter what they did, and they did and said some mean/crazy thing to me, to my face. Yet he put ME in a position to choose, and he gets mad when I point that out to him, and he is in fact angry at my depression in dealing with all this.

If my son were younger, I'd have had to make a different choice, of course. I'd been put in that place before, and let that relationship go because no way was I giving my kids up(guy I was dating asked me to give custody to my ex). I still see my son of course, but he won't come visit here(I don't blame him), and I miss living with him so much. I've never been into blame, but I do have trouble not feeling BPDh is pretty toxic to have made me make a choice in which there was no good decision, and for how he can't seem to even stand to be around my son now after spending four years with him?

I know I someday will regret this, in fact I'm regretting it now, but my son seems happy at my parents, and I've continually asked him if he wants me to move back, and he says no. And I no longer trust my BPDh around my son. For some reason, he's decided to hate him, and I'm hoping his DBT therapy deals with that, because there is no real reason for it.

I'm actually not seeing much less of my son, because he's busy at this age, but it still just feels like crap.

[formflier]

What upsets me is that I met all his "demands", and he's still unhappy. I can't make him happy, and I know that, only HE can make himself happy, and work his own issues, and me work mine(working on not being codependent or let this set off my anxiety).

Very insightful... .I hope you can focus on this... .  I hope this can help you when your husband makes demands in the future.

So... .I want to clarify... .make sure I understand.  Your son had a choice... .to stay or come with you... .and he choose to stay. 

Was coming with a real choice?  If he had said yes... .are there practical issues that would have prevented it... .(basically... .anything other than a grumpy husband)

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

Formflier:

My son had already decided weeks earlier that he wanted to stay in our home town and finish off school, rather than switching schools, which I totally understand. I'm saddened by this of course. My BPDh and my original deal we struck when we got married was that we'd stay in my hometown, and he'd commute(40 minutes to work), until both my kids graduated. Well, when we were talking about reconciliation, moving was one of the many things BPDh wanted, along with several others that are too embarrassing and too strange to even put on here.

As soon as BPDh moved back in with me, his grown daughters cut him off again(his son we have a good relationship with as long as BPDh throws huge money his way, and does what he wants). He dsyregulated, and pretty much stayed that way. My son and I became his targets. One day BPDh went off on me, and my son made one comment, not even directed at BPDh, and BPDh insisted my son move out, one week prior to us moving. He actually made BOTH my kids move out, but later said my 19 year old daughter who he dotes on could move back, but not my son. He basically robbed me of my last week living with my son, and I don't know if I'll ever be able to forgive that. It was beyond cruel, it was deliberate, and he saw how much it hurt both ME, and my son, and he had days to relent, but he wouldn't give us that last week. THIS cruel streak is really what makes me question if he could be APD.

That same day, he basically forced me to apologize to his adult daughters, two of whom wouldn't answer their phones, so I left lengthy apologies(not they I owed them one, or did anything, which is why it took me four years to apologize), and the one that did answer was awful to me, refused to accept an apology, said she'd been put in a toxic situation(meaning my marrying her divorced Dad... .how crazy is that?), and she'd acted PERFECT, and that her Dad is toxic, I'm toxic, and she hung up on me. Now, BPDh has been awful to me and my son, but I KNOW in the four years we've been together he's kissed all his girls' butts, and has never stuck up for me, no matter what they said or did, and he's avoided all confrontation with them... .so her saying this makes zero sense. I'm sure she witnessed him being toxic when he was married to her mother, but that was years ago, and when he/I met he had a good relationship with all his kids. Now, they blame him for everything.

Basically, after BPDh threw my son out, his full on anger I could always tell was there, but leashed, came out, and I no longer even want my son around him. It's as if he's too afraid to confront his own kids for their outrageous behaviors, so he tiptoes, then takes it out on us. It's basically all BPDh wants to talk about in all his therapy: his kids, and how to get them back. He refuses to see that they are acting very immature and angry.

So practically speaking, I do not want my BPDh around my son anymore, unless it's when lots of people are around. And my son, who always forgave anything BPDh did, now doesn't want to be around BPDh, and I totally understand that. I was always amazed at how my son supported the marriage, and was able to sidestep most of what BPDh threw at him. I'm proud of the kid I raised, but I'm sure not proud of the behaviors of the man I married. I've done way too much, and tried way too hard with his kids, for him to have done this to my kid.

My son won't even come visit at our new place, so it's quite a bit of back and forth for me to go visit him. Of course, now BPDh doesn't have to commute, but I do. More of the narcissism. He made things more comfortable for HIM, and my son and I are the ones paying the price.

This is still a pretty raw wound for me. I've been able to keep reminding myself that BPDh struggles with BPD, and that is why he does things, says things, and hurts people... .but in this case, I'm thinking as a parent himself, he knew exactly what he was doing... .and he did it to "get even" with me, because he feels he's lost his kids due to me(although it was his choice to stay married and move back in). I never feel my husband does things that are not deliberate, or very passive aggressively planned out. He might be impulsive at times, but this was clearly plotted, because if he just lost his cool, he would have relented.

I guess the natural consequences of BPDh's actions is that he spends less time with me, because I now have to split time to be with my son. I sort of think BPDh likes that though, so he can go see his kids, and pretend I don't exist.

As I write all this, I sort of wonder why I ever wanted him back... .he'd have never tried so hard, or given up a moments time with his kids for me. Ever. He's never put me or our marriage first. It's always been all about him... .

Tomorrow, I'm going to see my son.  

[OffRoad]

I just popped in and thought I could give you some suggestions that might help. You will know best if they will work with your H.

Here are things I've been hearing for years:

1. "You contributed"... .(I wasn't perfect, but I really didn't. Maybe I could have handled their anger a tad better, but even now, I don't see how. The one time his daughter went off, I left MY home to get away from her). What's a good non-inciting response to this, or is just zero response better?

Ask " What other way would have worked better, do you think?" if he says something valid "I'll have to think about that." and if he says something totally off the wall "I'll have to think about that." It's a great line where you can actually think about something or not.

2. "Such and such you did was mean" (again, he's imagining this, but to him, it's true, yet he totally overlooks things he witnessed them do and say to me). I can't convince him that I never intentionally did anything "mean", ever. I'm done trying. I'm one of those people who thinks first, then talks, and tries to never offend anyone, so this is baffling to me that he seems to want to think this of me. THIS one really gets me, and he knows it's the ONE thing most likely to get a response from me. What do I say, or not say to this?

Ask him what he means by "mean". "I'm not understanding what you are saying. Could you please tell me how what I said was "mean"? A response to any answer is "Ah, I see your interpretation now. That wasn't how I meant it, but I can see how it could be taken that way."

3. "I don't care about your feelings or opinions"... .he stopped saying this for a while, but he screamed it at me yesterday. This one makes me worry he could be a socio... .not just BPD. I don't care what the label is, I just want to know how to respond to his anger/dysregulation. What's a good response to this one?

This one I stand strong on. "I am entitled to my opinions. You can't tell me what I feel." It doesn't matter if he doesn't care about them. He can not care all he wants. YOU are still entitled to them, because your opinions and feelings belong to you. PERIOD. Say it once, then say you will not be yelled at or you will leave the room. Then leave the room if he continues to yell. (Boundary)

4. "You can't do this, you can't do that... .". Yesterday, it was I had to put the last and only picture of my son away for the sake of "fairness". None of this has been fair on me. His idea of fairness is HIM always getting his way, which he's very, very good at. I moved away from my 16 year old son, and I'm struggling with that, and 16 year old son has been great through all this. Now, BPDh is so non compassionate and hateful, I can't even have a picture out? I put it away, but I'm so hurt, and I think constantly giving in to BPDh makes him worse? How should I have responded, or how do I respond to future demands?

Arghhh! I hate this one. I went down the circular argument trail many times before I discovered BPD and this site. This is going to depend on you. It is your house and you have the right to do what you want too. But you do have to temper it with the possible consequences of your actions. Do you have a closet of your own? Hang your son's picture in there, so you can look at it when you want to, but he doesn't have to. I'm not very good at this one. I will endure any argument so that I can say "You don't get to tell me what I can and cannot do. I am a free entity, with the right to do as I please." I don't care what the repercussions are.

[formflier]

 

Ceruleanblue,

Thanks for fully explaining the situation with your kids... .and I think that I have a good idea of what is going on with him and his kids. 

Tough situation for him to be in and a tough situation for you to be in.

I'm going to pass on some advice that many senior members passed on to me... .and I have been grateful for... .since then.

Consistency matters.  Holding firm to a decision or boundary matters.  I'll lay out my first boundary and my first extinction burst survival... .hopefully you can see where you could apply those principles in your r/s. 

I'm very interested in you fully understanding this concept before trying to apply it... .because misapplying it... .is worse than trying nothing at all.


Why slot machines work


So... .I figured out... .by a lot of introspection... .that my wife rummaging around my phone and email was the "source" of a lot of conflict among us.  She would see an email... .and "think" it said or meant something different than it did.  I'm a very connected person.  Executive type... .lots of emails... .lots of contacts. 

Anyway... .I put a lock on my phone... .and changed my password.  I didn't tell me wife I did this... .I just did it.  Week or two later she started asking.  Luckily... .I had actually instituted some new security procedures at work... .so I could reference that some without completely lying... .but I said no to her request for the password. 

Didn't go well... .I walked out on several conversations.

Extinction burst set in:  She upped the ante... .  and kept upping it.  She finally laid down the law that I wouldn't get any more sex until I gave up the password. 

Because of this site... .I had it firm in my mind that I wouldn't "fight" over this.  This culminated in one night she came on to me sexually... .and at the moment I was about to enter her... .she blocked me and whispered in my ear that I could "get in there"... .if I would give the password to her. 

I didn't "fight" or "get mad"... .I rolled over and started doing something else.  Note:  This was very very very hard.  I was not OK on the inside... .

Like a light switch flipped... .she started acting like the sex/password combo was no big deal... .we had a wonderful intimate experience (about 15 minutes after she blocked me) and she acts like she never tried to control me.

I never brought this up to her... .complained about it... .anything... .I just went about my boundary.  It's my password... .she has no "right" to it.  She now has her own password... .I have never... .and will never... .ask for it.

This experience gave me hope... .helped me understand that I do still have power.

This site and my experiences here helped me understand that I needed to treat myself right as well.  I deserved to have my own private thoughts... .to communicate privately with those that I decided I want to communicate with. 

I lived out my values... .my r/s is much better for it.

Now... .I can't do this on "every little thing"... .and many things I have totally capitulated on... .but I used to want to fight about lots of little stuff.  Let it go... .


How do you think this story applies to your situation?

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

Offroad and Formflier: I think I can definitely be more consistent, and I'm working on that. I can also use that phrase about "what could I have done differently?". I actually don't think he'll expect that, and I'm pretty sure he'll have to come up with an answer fast. I know he takes it out on me, but I think deep down, he knows their behaviors are awful, and he doesn't know what to do either, so blaming me is easier.

My husband gets tons of emails, and texts too, so I can relate to that Formflier. What's funny is our situation that he always wants to know who it texting me, but he gets upset if I ask him that. He switched jobs, and I'd ask, just because I was trying to learn the names of his coworkers, and the people he manages. He's very secretive, but I'm an open book, but he questions me like I'm not, yet he gets mad if I ask, out of simple curiosity. I totally understand your need to have private thoughts, and we all have private thoughts, but how do you deal with when someone thinks almost ALL questions are intrusive? BPDh really doesn't like me to question him much at all, and it's almost like he feels like ALL his thoughts should be private. He lies, and he's super secretive, so it's hard to trust him. It's hard to get to know him, or feel connected to him, because talking isn't encouraged, and his conversation is very superficial, and sparse.

I'm sure I'll come across a boundary or decision I have to stand firm on, and I'm going to keep rereading your advice, just so I can stand strong. I think I fall into the trap of trying to explain my boundary or decisions, and I need to just make a simple statement, and let him deal with it. No more being lured into explaining over and over, or letting him to convince me why he is "right", and I should change my mind! Like you, that might involve walking away(I would probably feel rude doing that to him though), so I'll probably just repeat  my boundary simply, and change topics. As a last resort, I'll walk away. I just try to treat him kindly, and I'd hate if he walked away from me if I'm talking civilly to him. Now, if he's yelling and being angry, you can bet I won't feel bad about walking away.

[formflier]

 

I would suggest "Help me understand something different I could have done... ."

or

"help me understand what you would have preferred I do in this situation"

I try to stay away from "why"... ."what" is not as bad... .but is still easy to deliver it with a bad tone.

The tone and non verbals are just as important as the words... .I like the above suggestions because for me... .they help with my tone.

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

I'll try that. I'm just hoping it's for future occasions, and he can stop bringing up the past. He's been doing a lot better about that, but I know as soon as he has a major dysregulation, it's likely to come out. Old patterns die hard, and that and divorce threats have always been his way to "win", in his eyes. The divorce threats are almost gone, so I'm hopeful he'll get a handle on this "blame" game about the past too. Our MC really stressed this week that blame is not good, and is just a path that shouldn't be gone down. I'm sure he's getting tons of good tools in DBT too.

[formflier]

I'll try that. I'm just hoping it's for future occasions, and he can stop bringing up the past. 

It will come back... .hopefully just not as much.

Be prepared.

I suggest a two pronged approach.

If it looks like he is going "to the past"... ."Help me understand the feelings you have right now... ."  don't suggest a feeling.

If he talks about his feelings... .validate them.  And... .notice you are away from the past.

If he wants to give his opinion on the past... .an opinion and feelings are different. 

I am lonely is a feeling.  validate validate validate... .

You lied to me last year is an opinion.  don't respond... .ask for a feeling... .or disengage.

So... .the manner of disengagement also matters.  "We've already discussed that... .I'll be back in 5 minutes to talk about something else.  Leave... .get a glass of water... .bring him one when you come back.  Talk about something you saw in the newspaper... .

You get the idea... .tweak the ideas to be real to you... .

Glad you are seeing progress... .you have a part to play as well... .keep the momentum going.

FF

[adventurer]

"Help me understand the feelings you have right now... ." 

Love this, what a great way to get out of he said/she said blaming and JADE impulses.

[Ceruleanblue]

I agree that being prepared is a good plan. I don't mind validating his feelings(would be nice to get a few of mine understood though!), and I do think that disengaging when needed might work. From past experience, I don't think my BPDh would like the phrase "we've already talked about that, I'll be back... ." I do have to be really careful about exactly how I phrase things. I think I might get farther if I said "that's a hot topic for US, for the sake of harmony, let's not discuss it again". Same meaning, but I think he's hear that differently. Maybe.

Think that might work? I tend to get better results when I remind him we are working on the now, and on our marriage. I actually think his DBT takes our marriage into account, so this seems to be working better since he started DBT... .

[formflier]

From past experience, I don't think my BPDh would like the phrase "we've already talked about that, I'll be back... ." I do have to be really careful about exactly how I phrase things. I think I might get farther if I said "that's a hot topic for US, for the sake of harmony, let's not discuss it again". Same meaning, but I think he's hear that differently. Maybe.

I see the thought... .consider this.

Boundaries are harsh... .nothing validating about them.  Try to "soft sell" a boundary... .will lessen the effectiveness of the boundary.

Now... .I'm not saying call them names to set a boundary.  But you need clarity... .rather than "niceness".

Again... .validation is a totally different thought.  Try to validate so you don't have to do a boundary... .but... .whenever you decide its boundary time (this needs to be consistent)... .drop any thoughts of validation.

Be clear... .set boundary. 

The time reference is to possibly help with abandonment fears... .

But... .if you have to decide between abandonment fears... .or a boundary.  Choose the boundary!

Thoughts?

FF

[waverider]

Unfortunately boundaries do need to appear like unforgiving fortress walls not a warm guiding hand. They have to look unbending and a place that is pointless throwing your guile and energy at.

Warm and fuzzies invite negotiations.

This is why you pick your boundaries carefully as they need to stand out.

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .