A reply to a culmination of DrA's posts. Food for thought.

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hey Dr.A:

I wanted to address this in an individual thread to separate it from all the other communications here about your wife and focus in on just this one issue that so affects a lot of women but is particularly challenging if BPD is an influence.

I’ve been taking my time reading through all your posts and really trying to sit back and get a feeling for your situation. There is so much positive that you say about your wife and I feel for her struggles. When I isolate the more challenging things and consider myself from her position and come through the turmoil I so feel she’s struggling, not about you, or the children but more about her own ‘self’ and definition in that personal struggle.

I’d like to add a bit if that’s OK and it’s just a bit different perspective on the situation. It won’t be short so sit back and take a couple of minutes if you have them DrA.

I wonder if sometimes we aren’t so in focus on the issues and mitigating factors of BPD if we don’t sometimes overlook the more simple aspects of our spouses being women, just like any other women living in like-circumstances. For that reason I’d like to throw out the clinician guides and remove BPD from the scenario for a moment. In order to simplify that, I’m going to need names so I’ll create them:

You: Philip Arthur (past and present)

Your wife: Mrs. Melaine ( Philip) Arthur.

Your wife when you met her and her maiden name: Melanie Robertson.


I’ve often thought about the dynamics behind men and women transitioning from first meeting as friend/lover to  wife/husband/ and on to parent/spouse. For the most part, we as men go all through the process and still put our pants on one leg at a time in the morning. For a large part transition with little personal effect or effort into our new roles as compared to our counterparts, particularly and most focused-on the aspect of searching for or maintaining ‘self’ throughout the process.


The migration personally from Melanie Robertson to Mrs. Philip Arthur is one entire aspect of internal self-altering, given we live in a paternal based society. I’m certain as a doctor you can easily relate to that. On the other hand, or could I say, a continuation of that same hand is the transition to Mommy and the changes in ‘self’ that take place through the physical, emotional and hormonal changes of becoming that person and becoming that role. You already know that the transition to Mother is a real physical transformation that is recordable through hormonal effects on the amygdule. Becoming mother is a really powerful physically, mentally  altering and psychological transition. Conceiving, internal connectedness of child development, giving birth and lactating to nourish that birth are so powerful and so restricted to only the mother’s experience and development  in our joint relationship with her. It is also more importantly so connected again to transitioning of ‘self-definition. for a woman.


Point being, all the way through our meeting and participating in our girlfriends, wives and mothers of our children experiences transitioning; we as boyfriends, husbands and fathering spouses have really just basically continued to get up each morning and put our pants on one leg at a time as we always did. Certainly as men and as ‘self’ we’ve changed. We’ve grown. We’ve learned. We’ve adapted. Basically, you are still Philip Arthur just an extension of the same Philip Arthur you’ve always known and been stable in knowing.


I wonder truly, about the struggle of self as a woman, particularly when their child bearing potentially ended and now they have settled into their roles as wife/spouse and mother. All of those extra needs of doing and challenges of daily life put aside, I wonder specifically about the renewed need to define self when that time comes. I believe it will and does come for every woman.


Cut to the chase. I wonder, and only you will know this; when was the last time that Philip, the person that Melanie Robertson first met and fell in love with put his hands in hers and looked into the eyes of Melanie Robertson?  She is still there and it will be Melanie Robertson and her aspirations, her hopes and her needs that she found hope in meeting and marrying Philip Arthur that she struggles to reconcile with and find.


We all change so much and in some cases without even recognizing it we stray so much from who we were when we first met our wives. The person they met and fell in love with because of who we were and how we interacted with them back then. It isn’t by intent or design, we simply go on putting on leg at a time and lose tract of the same hopes, the same aspirations and same dreams we shared  with the soul of our Melanie Robertsons  when we first met and fell in love with them.


When was the last time you told Melanie Robertson how much you’ve marveled at her, how proud you are of the accomplishments she’s made and how much you love her for that?


Back to the reality of the threads were blogging in: I have found more success in changing the dynamics of our relationship together from the ‘hell’ of the past into the harmony of today by looking back at my wife when I first met her and looking back at ‘myself’ and becoming that person again who meets the needs, the wants and the hopes and the insecurities of the person that I first met. Going back to me being that same person has so allowed her to settle with “herself”, find meaning and direction and self-fulfillment in our relationship that it has been one of the biggest game changers.


Sometimes for some people the search for self becomes so difficult and sometimes as spouses it’s our place, because we do love them so much, to take their hands, immerse ourselves in them and help them find that for themselves. That isn’t an easy task because it’s not one we can truly and directly input in but we can steer their search and help them find solidity and harmony simply with the knowledge and support of our love for them just as they are and exactly who they are. Hey, who doesn’t want to be recognized and admired for who we are and being ourselves?


Just food for thought my friend.

I really wonder how many other men can relate their wives’ to having this same struggle or how many other women here can relate to this situation?

[Stalwart]

Hey Dr.A:

I wanted to address this in an individual thread to separate it from all the other communications here about your wife and focus in on just this one issue that so affects a lot of women but is particularly challenging if BPD is an influence.

I’ve been taking my time reading through all your posts and really trying to sit back and get a feeling for your situation. There is so much positive that you say about your wife and I feel for her struggles. When I isolate the more challenging things and consider myself from her position and come through the turmoil I so feel she’s struggling, not about you, or the children but more about her own ‘self’ and definition in that personal struggle.

I’d like to add a bit if that’s OK and it’s just a bit different perspective on the situation. It won’t be short so sit back and take a couple of minutes if you have them DrA.

I wonder if sometimes we aren’t so in focus on the issues and mitigating factors of BPD if we don’t sometimes overlook the more simple aspects of our spouses being women, just like any other women living in like-circumstances. For that reason I’d like to throw out the clinician guides and remove BPD from the scenario for a moment. In order to simplify that, I’m going to need names so I’ll create them:

You: Philip Arthur (past and present)

Your wife: Mrs. Melaine ( Philip) Arthur.

Your wife when you met her and her maiden name: Melanie Robertson.


I’ve often thought about the dynamics behind men and women transitioning from first meeting as friend/lover to  wife/husband/ and on to parent/spouse. For the most part, we as men go all through the process and still put our pants on one leg at a time in the morning. For a large part transition with little personal effect or effort into our new roles as compared to our counterparts, particularly and most focused-on the aspect of searching for or maintaining ‘self’ throughout the process.


The migration personally from Melanie Robertson to Mrs. Philip Arthur is one entire aspect of internal self-altering, given we live in a paternal based society. I’m certain as a doctor you can easily relate to that. On the other hand, or could I say, a continuation of that same hand is the transition to Mommy and the changes in ‘self’ that take place through the physical, emotional and hormonal changes of becoming that person and becoming that role. You already know that the transition to Mother is a real physical transformation that is recordable through hormonal effects on the amygdule. Becoming mother is a really powerful physically, mentally  altering and psychological transition. Conceiving, internal connectedness of child development, giving birth and lactating to nourish that birth are so powerful and so restricted to only the mother’s experience and development  in our joint relationship with her. It is also more importantly so connected again to transitioning of ‘self-definition. for a woman.


Point being, all the way through our meeting and participating in our girlfriends, wives and mothers of our children experiences transitioning; we as boyfriends, husbands and fathering spouses have really just basically continued to get up each morning and put our pants on one leg at a time as we always did. Certainly as men and as ‘self’ we’ve changed. We’ve grown. We’ve learned. We’ve adapted. Basically, you are still Philip Arthur just an extension of the same Philip Arthur you’ve always known and been stable in knowing.


I wonder truly, about the struggle of self as a woman, particularly when their child bearing potentially ended and now they have settled into their roles as wife/spouse and mother. All of those extra needs of doing and challenges of daily life put aside, I wonder specifically about the renewed need to define self when that time comes. I believe it will and does come for every woman.


Cut to the chase. I wonder, and only you will know this; when was the last time that Philip, the person that Melanie Robertson first met and fell in love with put his hands in hers and looked into the eyes of Melanie Robertson?  She is still there and it will be Melanie Robertson and her aspirations, her hopes and her needs that she found hope in meeting and marrying Philip Arthur that she struggles to reconcile with and find.


We all change so much and in some cases without even recognizing it we stray so much from who we were when we first met our wives. The person they met and fell in love with because of who we were and how we interacted with them back then. It isn’t by intent or design, we simply go on putting on leg at a time and lose tract of the same hopes, the same aspirations and same dreams we shared  with the soul of our Melanie Robertsons  when we first met and fell in love with them.


When was the last time you told Melanie Robertson how much you’ve marveled at her, how proud you are of the accomplishments she’s made and how much you love her for that?


Back to the reality of the threads were blogging in: I have found more success in changing the dynamics of our relationship together from the ‘hell’ of the past into the harmony of today by looking back at my wife when I first met her and looking back at ‘myself’ and becoming that person again who meets the needs, the wants and the hopes and the insecurities of the person that I first met. Going back to me being that same person has so allowed her to settle with “herself”, find meaning and direction and self-fulfillment in our relationship that it has been one of the biggest game changers.


Sometimes for some people the search for self becomes so difficult and sometimes as spouses it’s our place, because we do love them so much, to take their hands, immerse ourselves in them and help them find that for themselves. That isn’t an easy task because it’s not one we can truly and directly input in but we can steer their search and help them find solidity and harmony simply with the knowledge and support of our love for them just as they are and exactly who they are. Hey, who doesn’t want to be recognized and admired for who we are and being ourselves?


Just food for thought my friend.

I really wonder how many other men can relate their wives’ to having this same struggle or how many other women here can relate to this situation?

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[Cat Familiar]

Beautifully written, Stalwart. Thank you!

I purposefully chose not to be a mother because of my upbringing with a mother with BPD, so I missed out on many of the changes women typically experience in marriage and motherhood.

Something that I do know is that when women take their husband's name, their previous identity is erased, even in this digital age. I just had a college friend visit for a few days and because I don't do Facebook and she does, we tried to locate some of our friends from many years ago. We could find men but our female friends had disappeared into the ether and we hadn't a clue how to locate them.

Another change as relationships evolve into marriage is that tasks become split along gender roles. Men often quit doing housework and cooking and rely upon women to do that for them. I grew up with a father who did all types of "women's work" in an era when that was uncommon. It shocks me to see men who previously were capable suddenly claim helplessness about these tasks. Conversely women often refuse to fix things or do gardening or empty the trash if they can get their husbands to do it.

Since I grew up without defined gender roles about tasks, I do everything, which is unfortunate because it gives my BPD husband an excuse not to do things because I know how to do them better--which is getting off topic here.

Many thanks, Stalwart, for a very thoughtful post.

[CastleofGlass]

This is a very good post and a hard look at some of the things that we as people connected to a pwBPD can overlook as we tend to throw everything going wrong at the BPD aspect of the relationship. What I take most from this perspective you have given, and I may be wrong, but when we are married or dating a pwBPD, it is almost as if we are married or dating 2 people at the same time. For instance, not only do I have my uBPDw that I have to now change my way of thinking and handling situations with, but also my wife just as a woman in general. I may have pulled a bit more out of your perspective than desired, but at any rate, I still feel it is also in fact, a truth concerning a relationship with a pwBPD. If we want to be successful in our relationships, we not only need to deal with the normal trials and evolutions of a relationship, but also another complete side of the individuals with their own unique struggles not found in people not having a mental illness.

Overall, it's not just about everything this website and support has to offer concerning BPD, but in my case, also handling what an average married couple would be going through which is aging/changing/having kids/etc.

So to sum it up, I feel this is a reminder that we can't just focus on the BPD now and what to do with it, at the end of the day, we are still in a relationship as well and have to have those bases covered as well.

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, as a woman, I know if BPDh could do what OP suggested, it would man the world to me. I miss how he used to look at me, and how he used to give me a place of importance. It's funny because we just talked about this today, and he actually listened, and didn't get defensive! It's moments like this where I think his DBT is working. He practiced what I call active listening, and empathy after listening to me. I'm not sure if he's learning this in DBT, but whatever it is I sure am thankful.

I try to remember BPDh as he was when we were dating, but the issue I've had is that I think this was never the true him. I think it was mostly an act fabricated to fit me. It is what he'd like to be, but what his BPD makes so hard. Now, I try to look to remember any good recent moment, and focus on his efforts towards better behaviors. In a way, that is more of a comfort than remembering the "perfect" man he pretended to be.

[Stalwart]

It's moments like this where I think his DBT is working. He practiced what I call active listening, and empathy after listening to me. I'm not sure if he's learning this in DBT, but whatever it is I sure am thankful.

I think this was never the true him. I think it was mostly an act fabricated to fit me. It is what he'd like to be, but what his BPD makes so hard. Now, I try to look to remember any good recent moment, and focus on his efforts towards better behaviors. In a way, that is more of a comfort than remembering the "perfect" man he pretended to be.

Hey Ceruleanblue: I really, really, really am inspired and so happy for both of you when I read the first part of your post and your husbands progress. It must be so hopeful for you and it sounds like it's coming in solid steps forward and not just baby steps.  

Let's just pretend together for a minute - hey what could it hurt.

What if that perfect man is the man you met who was challenged by unregulated BPD from remaining that way. What if that truly is who he is beneath there and is struggling to bring to 'self' and regulate. What if that is the real self he is working toward finding and being?

What if you were to bolster some of that man back with kindness, consideration and compliments to slowly lure him back out from the place he has found to hide to try to protect himself?

I read so,so, so many articles, not necessarily on this site but others that have failed in their relationship demeaning their ex partners because they felt as though they were conned in and trapped intentionally by their BPD partners. Rationally, when relationships turn and crash so severely I think it would be an automatic reaction to consider they 'conned' their ways into our lives. But just for one moment what if that other person is really the self that person is but just struggles to maintain in the dance. What if it wasn't a con but a true representation he just struggled to maintain in the confusion between the two of you?

I wonder if he still is in there trying to free himself to be 'himself', that person that you met and fell in love - that perfect man... .Are you the same person he met or have you for some part retreated to shelter your self in the same dance and confusion?

I can only say that I've gone back and not only refound myself, the person my wife met and married, but he's a far wiser and better person even than he was then for the experience and through the learning. It's slow but after two years of constant regulation I think my wife recognizes that. She does constantly in saying how she appreciates me being the way I used to be and how much she loves me.

That path was far more complicated than it sounds superficially. The biggest challenge was to lock the past up behind me and face a new clean future untouched from the nightmares and trials of the past. It's hard after everything to be 'vulnerable' enough to open back up to who you were in the beginning, but remember what it felt like? Remember the hopes, the happiness and the expectations?

Everyday your husband works on himself - everyday you work on yourself and control the chaos of the past is one more small baby step and day towards perhaps making that goal possible. Both of you now know and have so recognized the way you don't want it to go. It gives you so much ability to steer it towards where you do.

What would that look like to you Cerulean? If you could help coax out that person through positive recognition and enforce it with a loving response again so he could find his definition of himself and hold on to that; what do envision your relationship would be like?

Maybe more importantly, have you asked what that would look like to him? I'll bet you'd be surprised by the answer if you asked it in the right setting and in the right way at the right time.

[waverider]

I think what you are getting at here is regrouping the essence of who you both are. pwBPD struggle with transitional changes, they can loose the plot due to the lack of continuity. In their mind who they are now is who they have always been, they may want who they were, but they don't remember who they were. They need help to reconnect to their roots.

They are lost in space

We struggle to help them as our recent experiences have tainted or infected who we once where too. The approach you are suggested i think is to try rebooting to a clean OM platform but with improved operator skills