"Divorcing" a parent

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I don't mean NC or estrangement (although communication changes might be in order), I mean in a more symbolic way.  I am realizing that if I am to survive, I will have to psychically "divorce" my father, and what I mean by that is separating myself from the standards he held me to that I never met, and even though I began to dislike him around age 10, I still thought there was just something wrong with me.

Has anyone had to do this?  If so, how did you face the "void" that was left?  The parent was not healthy, their shame is not yours, yet when you excise them from your consciousness, their negative influence is gone but the feeling I get is somehow of being adrift, without an anchor, no structure... .so the bad stuff is gone but now you're an orphan, so to speak.

Did you find new role models/parent figures/mentors/become more aware of healthy masculine or feminine, fathering or mothering, energy in the world?  if so, how?

Did you find that you had to go through a process of deciding on your own values, what's important to you, and practice holding yourself to that standard rather than someone else's?  If so, how did you avoid getting tripped up by the old shame messages when they are so intense?  People here talk about "boundaries", but it seems to me excruciatingly difficult when there is a situation in your past when your physical, mental or emotional boundaries were violated (especially by a parent) and now it's hard to even tell what a healthy boundary would be because what they did seems so... ."normal"!

I am examining more closely this relentless shame that I feel every day.  I used to get some relief from exercise, reading books or seeing friends, but now it just doesn't stop.  Usually it's pounding me with the message that I'm not lovable because I'm not employed, but other times that's not clear and it's more just in general that I haven't done the things I am supposed to have done and that makes me a terrible person who no one could possibly love.

Growing up, I never met my dad's standards.  (I'm sure my mom had something to do with my issues too, but at least she is capable of genuine, if not intuitive nurturance of small children, plants, pets and other things that can't talk. Once you can talk, she switches to reason over empathic attunement)  I also think my mom picked up the slack from my dad in terms of the child rearing, because he couldn't do it without shouting at me or saying cruel things.  She protected me to a significant extent, but still felt she had to teach me to avoid triggering his anger, to "protect myself".  When she told me that as an adult, i asked her, whose feelings take precedence in that dynamic, the adult's or the child's?  She said, "the child's!" I said, no, if the child has to avoid doing something so the adult doesn't get angry, even if you state that the purpose is for the child to "protect themselves", that's holding the child responsible for the adult's feelings.  As opposed to the adult being responsible for regulating their own feelings, finding constructive ways to express them.  She still doesn't seem to get it.

I was too young to remember but my mom said he used to shout at me for spilling a cup of water.  I do remember when I was 10, we had to go to some event at my school that was in the evening.  When we arrived there (a 5 minute drive from our house) I realized I had forgotten something important and he shouted ":)amn you, Emma!" at the top of his lungs. (We weren't even late.)

Some time not long after that, my parents bought a camcorder, I was holding it in both hands about 6 inches above the kitchen table and he shouts at the top of his lungs (let me add that he has a deep loud voice) that I am not holding it carefully enough.  I retreated to my room and wailed for at least 20 minutes.

As a teenager I didn't speak to him much, we only interacted when I was inconveniencing him in some way (late for school, etc.)  Let me add for those of you who haven't been reading all my posts that as a teenager I did not drink, smoke, swear, go anywhere social outside school (I had no real friends) let alone stay out too late, run around with any people at all let alone people who were a bad influence, and I got straight A's.  The worst thing I did was being late for school because I was trying to be beautiful so I could be popular, and I often missed the school bus so he had to drive me to school.  (again, a behaviour that my parents could have talked to me about, determined the cause instead of scolding me, when really I was doing the best I could with what I knew to try to meet the emotional needs, popularity, friends, belonging, that they couldn't help me with/didn't think were important)

In my early 20s we couldn't talk for more than 5 minutes without getting into an argument, and basically the only thing I remember hearing from him was, you're spending too much money, you should be paying off your student loans, (started paying off my student loans) you should be paying off the principal and not just the interest, (continuing to pay off my student loans) you are going to have to declare bankruptcy.  His idea seemed to be that my career should be a sort of stepwise financial success and savings, even though I know he has NEVER been even remotely that responsible with his finances, and I can confidently say that he taught/modeled for me a total of zero good financial skills.  So even though I know he is a complete hypocrite, the way he spoke to me, such disapproval, I still remember the feeling and I blame myself.  "I was given everything I needed to succeed, all the educational support, I was intelligent and talented, I had a golden ticket for success, and the fact that I didn't succeed must mean I screwed it up and have terrible character"

Although my father and I have had civil conversations since that time and I do feel that nowadays he respects my opinion, I can't remember him ever giving me a compliment about my character traits or intelligence or personal qualities.

When I was close to 30, my sister and I lived together, our parents came to visit on the weekend and we were walking from our apartment to a restaurant to have brunch.  I was eating a banana along the way (not sure why) but anyways I quickly darted on a diagonal in front of my sister to get to the garbage bin to throw the peel out.  I got a lecture at the restaurant for 20 minutes from all 3 of them about why that was rude to suddenly go in front of her like that!  I kept saying, I'm an adult, I'll behave the way I want and accept the consequences!

My parents were not controlling about all aspects of life, but there are certain things like for my father, he seemed to get angry about being inconvenienced in any way (and the parents reading this are shouting "you don't want to be inconvenienced? don't have children!" and he had a thing about me being "ungrateful".  My mom was strict about manners but for her it was more about avoiding even the remote possibility of anything that could be interpreted as offending anyone outside the family.

I remember several years ago I had a mental health assessment that got sent back to my family doctor, I saw the letter and it said something about "emotional abuse at the hands of her father" and I thought, that is awfully dramatic wording!  I had a hard time accepting it, because my upbringing just didn't fit the picture of what I thought "abuse" looked and sounded like.  

I bear in mind, though, that this was a psychiatrist who said this and it was a questionnaire and discussion I forget how long, and I didn't even tell him everything my dad did and still this professional said "emotional abuse".  

It seems I still want to be perfect in order to "earn" my father's love. Or maybe it's that I think I have to be perfect in order to earn anybody's love, because there I was, his child, and I wasn't even good enough for him.  Also, despite how much I've been talking about it, it actually feels really taboo to be disloyal to my parents and my childhood, since there is so much I did get (nutritious food, quality clothing, ballet and skating lessons, a significant degree of attunement, caring and role model of how to treat people at least from my mother).

And yet on the odd occasion this feeling pops up about my childhood, "There isn't space for me, here, with these people."

[eeks]

I don't mean NC or estrangement (although communication changes might be in order), I mean in a more symbolic way.  I am realizing that if I am to survive, I will have to psychically "divorce" my father, and what I mean by that is separating myself from the standards he held me to that I never met, and even though I began to dislike him around age 10, I still thought there was just something wrong with me.

Has anyone had to do this?  If so, how did you face the "void" that was left?  The parent was not healthy, their shame is not yours, yet when you excise them from your consciousness, their negative influence is gone but the feeling I get is somehow of being adrift, without an anchor, no structure... .so the bad stuff is gone but now you're an orphan, so to speak.

Did you find new role models/parent figures/mentors/become more aware of healthy masculine or feminine, fathering or mothering, energy in the world?  if so, how?

Did you find that you had to go through a process of deciding on your own values, what's important to you, and practice holding yourself to that standard rather than someone else's?  If so, how did you avoid getting tripped up by the old shame messages when they are so intense?  People here talk about "boundaries", but it seems to me excruciatingly difficult when there is a situation in your past when your physical, mental or emotional boundaries were violated (especially by a parent) and now it's hard to even tell what a healthy boundary would be because what they did seems so... ."normal"!

I am examining more closely this relentless shame that I feel every day.  I used to get some relief from exercise, reading books or seeing friends, but now it just doesn't stop.  Usually it's pounding me with the message that I'm not lovable because I'm not employed, but other times that's not clear and it's more just in general that I haven't done the things I am supposed to have done and that makes me a terrible person who no one could possibly love.

Growing up, I never met my dad's standards.  (I'm sure my mom had something to do with my issues too, but at least she is capable of genuine, if not intuitive nurturance of small children, plants, pets and other things that can't talk. Once you can talk, she switches to reason over empathic attunement)  I also think my mom picked up the slack from my dad in terms of the child rearing, because he couldn't do it without shouting at me or saying cruel things.  She protected me to a significant extent, but still felt she had to teach me to avoid triggering his anger, to "protect myself".  When she told me that as an adult, i asked her, whose feelings take precedence in that dynamic, the adult's or the child's?  She said, "the child's!" I said, no, if the child has to avoid doing something so the adult doesn't get angry, even if you state that the purpose is for the child to "protect themselves", that's holding the child responsible for the adult's feelings.  As opposed to the adult being responsible for regulating their own feelings, finding constructive ways to express them.  She still doesn't seem to get it.

I was too young to remember but my mom said he used to shout at me for spilling a cup of water.  I do remember when I was 10, we had to go to some event at my school that was in the evening.  When we arrived there (a 5 minute drive from our house) I realized I had forgotten something important and he shouted ":)amn you, Emma!" at the top of his lungs. (We weren't even late.)

Some time not long after that, my parents bought a camcorder, I was holding it in both hands about 6 inches above the kitchen table and he shouts at the top of his lungs (let me add that he has a deep loud voice) that I am not holding it carefully enough.  I retreated to my room and wailed for at least 20 minutes.

As a teenager I didn't speak to him much, we only interacted when I was inconveniencing him in some way (late for school, etc.)  Let me add for those of you who haven't been reading all my posts that as a teenager I did not drink, smoke, swear, go anywhere social outside school (I had no real friends) let alone stay out too late, run around with any people at all let alone people who were a bad influence, and I got straight A's.  The worst thing I did was being late for school because I was trying to be beautiful so I could be popular, and I often missed the school bus so he had to drive me to school.  (again, a behaviour that my parents could have talked to me about, determined the cause instead of scolding me, when really I was doing the best I could with what I knew to try to meet the emotional needs, popularity, friends, belonging, that they couldn't help me with/didn't think were important)

In my early 20s we couldn't talk for more than 5 minutes without getting into an argument, and basically the only thing I remember hearing from him was, you're spending too much money, you should be paying off your student loans, (started paying off my student loans) you should be paying off the principal and not just the interest, (continuing to pay off my student loans) you are going to have to declare bankruptcy.  His idea seemed to be that my career should be a sort of stepwise financial success and savings, even though I know he has NEVER been even remotely that responsible with his finances, and I can confidently say that he taught/modeled for me a total of zero good financial skills.  So even though I know he is a complete hypocrite, the way he spoke to me, such disapproval, I still remember the feeling and I blame myself.  "I was given everything I needed to succeed, all the educational support, I was intelligent and talented, I had a golden ticket for success, and the fact that I didn't succeed must mean I screwed it up and have terrible character"

Although my father and I have had civil conversations since that time and I do feel that nowadays he respects my opinion, I can't remember him ever giving me a compliment about my character traits or intelligence or personal qualities.

When I was close to 30, my sister and I lived together, our parents came to visit on the weekend and we were walking from our apartment to a restaurant to have brunch.  I was eating a banana along the way (not sure why) but anyways I quickly darted on a diagonal in front of my sister to get to the garbage bin to throw the peel out.  I got a lecture at the restaurant for 20 minutes from all 3 of them about why that was rude to suddenly go in front of her like that!  I kept saying, I'm an adult, I'll behave the way I want and accept the consequences!

My parents were not controlling about all aspects of life, but there are certain things like for my father, he seemed to get angry about being inconvenienced in any way (and the parents reading this are shouting "you don't want to be inconvenienced? don't have children!" and he had a thing about me being "ungrateful".  My mom was strict about manners but for her it was more about avoiding even the remote possibility of anything that could be interpreted as offending anyone outside the family.

I remember several years ago I had a mental health assessment that got sent back to my family doctor, I saw the letter and it said something about "emotional abuse at the hands of her father" and I thought, that is awfully dramatic wording!  I had a hard time accepting it, because my upbringing just didn't fit the picture of what I thought "abuse" looked and sounded like.  

I bear in mind, though, that this was a psychiatrist who said this and it was a questionnaire and discussion I forget how long, and I didn't even tell him everything my dad did and still this professional said "emotional abuse".  

It seems I still want to be perfect in order to "earn" my father's love. Or maybe it's that I think I have to be perfect in order to earn anybody's love, because there I was, his child, and I wasn't even good enough for him.  Also, despite how much I've been talking about it, it actually feels really taboo to be disloyal to my parents and my childhood, since there is so much I did get (nutritious food, quality clothing, ballet and skating lessons, a significant degree of attunement, caring and role model of how to treat people at least from my mother).

And yet on the odd occasion this feeling pops up about my childhood, "There isn't space for me, here, with these people."

[livednlearned]

Hi eeks,

I can really relate to your post. It sounds like we have very similar fathers, and I'm struggling with some of the questions you raise. Your dad sounds very narcissistic and intolerant, having impossible expectations for a child, never approving of you, the whole eggshells debacle. Plus a mother who trains you to walk on those egg shells, at the expense of developing your real and genuine self. I have so many memories of feeling like I got hit by a train for no reason, just came out of left field. A lot of discipline was so sudden and swift, and there was never any post-reassurance, no explanation, no reason, just boom. The riot act.

I'm trying to understand the difference between estrangement and "symbolically" divorcing from a parent. I intuitively understand, although I'm not sure how to describe it. For me, there is an estrangement right now, and that feels partly healthy. I married (and divorced) someone with uBPD who had equally narcissistic traits as my dad. The divorce, while it was from my ex, sort of led to a divorce from my dad. Over the simplest thing really. I can't even really call it a thing, not unless the extreme fragility of my dad's ego is considered as the reason. We also live 3000 miles away, so there is less opportunity to repair.

What really resonated with me is when you asked about the "void" that was left. This is what I'm trying to understand, now that he is not in my life. What is the psychological toll of symbolically being finished with a parent? It seems like it must be a steep price. I feel like I've done half the healthy work by changing my role in the family dynamic. I don't understand this next part, where it's just radio silence.

I have, strangely enough, found both maternal and paternal replacement figures. One is a former teacher who is very psychological minded, and seems to understand deeply what I'm dealing with (he lost his father at 20, and had a very depressed and despairing mother, so not a wholesome childhood for him either). The other is a woman I rented a room from, and she became like family to me, we've been friends for 20 years. I suspect this is common, to seek out healthy versions of parent figures and to sort of "reparent" ourselves. I'm also a parent myself (13 year old boy) and managed to find a wonderful, loving male partner who is also divorced from a BPD ex spouse.

When I went through my divorce, I went through a one-year period where I was pretty raw, grieving the loss, which was compounded by the loss of my dad. I remember my T telling me that this stage would be one of intense growth and it was. I remember having a lot of intense and seemingly symbolic dreams that she seemed to think were about allowing a more feminine side of me to express itself. I take that to mean that I was repairing some of the things I had suppressed in order to tolerate my childhood.

So my healing came in two parts, when I think about. The first was to stop identifying with this unrelenting need to be strong. This is what I was praised for as a kid. Anything weak was disparaged. I let myself be vulnerable and wow did that hurt. It felt like the Great Cracking, where inside was this gooey mess. Of all the pain that came my way during the divorce, it was actually deciding to let people love and help me that made me cry the hardest. Like nervous breakdown kind of crying. Just walking around the neighborhood with my dog, weeping nonstop.

Sorry for the long rambling post here. You can tell I'm trying to sort this out too.    I think the presence of the two parent figures in my life and the need to be loved -- this was pretty powerful. But it was the acceptance of their love and caring that was the most profound.

I'm still not sure how that connects to what I'm supposed to do with my dad. I have a new partner and he's great -- it's the first relationship I've been in where I'm not trying to rescue anyone. He's a real equal and has been through his own version of what I'm going through, with his parents having BPD traits and a sister with BPD, plus an ex-spouse who has BPD traits.

The shame may be slightly different for me. I feel like I've been treading water most of my life to try and keep my head above it, not acknowledging it. It's surfacing and yet I'm not really sure how to cope with it. I seem to be withdrawing a little from people and can feel some depression, yet I also have this intense forward momentum. It's hard to unpack the authentic stuff from the shame-based self (ego).

What I do know is that loving yourself and practicing self-care can provide some genuine scaffolding for your ego to crack and the more authentic part of yourself to emerge. This all sounds very lovely, although in my experience it was excruciatingly painful... .until it wasn't. It was like screaming in terror as you go over the cliff, and continuing to scream even after you realize that it isn't a cliff, it's a 2-inch ledge and all you have to do is open your eyes and relax. 

I fortunately had a good psychiatrist who explained what was happening instead of trying to pathologize it and push pills on me. Funny to say this, but I sort of miss the raw pain that came up when I was healing because it was so real. Now I'm in this void phase where I'm not sure exactly where to go with all this. I just keep observing and watching, thinking something will become clear. Meanwhile, my dad is getting older and with me being so broke, a trip out there isn't in the cards anytime soon.

Are you seeing a therapist right now? It sounds like you might be struggling to validate whether your father was emotionally abusive or not. Do you feel that he was? Do you have anyone in your life that feels like a surrogate parent?

Thanks for posting this. I feel like I've been hoping someone else is asking these questions, so when I read your post it felt so good to know I'm not wondering these things alone. Even though I wish no one had to feel this way. 

[eeks]

Hi eeks,

I can really relate to your post. It sounds like we have very similar fathers, and I'm struggling with some of the questions you raise. Your dad sounds very narcissistic and intolerant, having impossible expectations for a child, never approving of you, the whole eggshells debacle. Plus a mother who trains you to walk on those egg shells, at the expense of developing your real and genuine self. I have so many memories of feeling like I got hit by a train for no reason, just came out of left field. A lot of discipline was so sudden and swift, and there was never any post-reassurance, no explanation, no reason, just boom. The riot act.

Your last two sentences, for me it was not that often, because the capricious "discipline" (if you can even flatter it by calling it that) only happened when my mother wasn't around watching him, but I just had a couple of memories.

Actually, you know what, I don't want to type them out.  But the one time was when he assumed (without inquiring) that I pushed my sister, when she had actually fallen, and the other was when we were at Disney World and I wasn't ready to go on time.

I'm realizing, he's an a**hole.  I know, profanity filters, but there isn't any other way to say it to say it.  And you know, even though my mother did stand up for me (except on the rare occasions she wasn't around and my sister and I were alone with our father), and talk to me later about what he did, my father never talked to me about it or apologized, and there is also the fact that she stayed with him, which is a sort of approval or allowance of what's happening.  Where you can't really call it what it is, because it ultimately ends up being hushed.

Both their respective sets of parents were/are dysfunctional, so I know where it comes from, but that doesn't mean it didn't affect me or that it's not right to be angry about it.  I'm sure you understand what I mean.

I'm trying to understand the difference between estrangement and "symbolically" divorcing from a parent.

You mean trying to understand in what sense I used it?  Maybe "divorce" was not the most accurate word.  I guess I wanted to capture the sense of declaring myself not subject to his standards, so a sort of psychological divorce.

I just realized I feel like I have to stay loyal to him because my mother does, she continues to put up with him.  He is also a hoarder.  He also insists on doing the renovations himself and not paying someone else, but everything is started and not completed (they bought a house that needed a lot of work).  There are piles of wood, tools, appliances and fixtures in boxes in almost every room in the house.  

She can't stand it, the house I grew up in was almost as bad for unfinished renovations so it's been decades, but she doesn't leave him.  We've talked about it.  She is not afraid he will be physically violent to her if she tells him she's divorcing him, but that he will be destructive to property.  She knows a police officer from the school she used to teach at (she's retired now) who offered to be there, but she still doesn't go through with it.  It leaves me with a lot of anger with no receptacle, because it's her life, I can't do anything about it.

And I feel like I can't "leave" him even symbolically, because she stays with him.  I know that's not true, but I feel that way.

To be honest, I am afraid to talk to him about my childhood.  I never have.  I don't think the discussion would be satisfactory.  Even if he apologized, I do not think he would mean it.  And if I were to decide not to speak to him, it would put a wrench in things because I wouldn't be able to go to my parents' place, my mom would have to come visit me here.  You don't have to have advice about that, I'm just venting.

I have to fake civility with him when I'm there, as it is.  Which also just made me realize... .you know, he's never offered to discuss our issues either.  He knows I have a grudge against him, because most of the time I can't keep up the aforementioned faking, and he must know the reason.  

My mother still defends him.  My therapist says my family uses me as a "lightning rod".  He said,  they are engaging in projective identification, which I don't totally understand yet, so I can't be sure if I agree, but I understand it is on the severe side as defenses go, and it made me think of scapegoating, too.  

For example, a couple of months ago I visited my parents, sometimes when I do that they drive me back to my place in the city, and on the way we stop at Costco.  I like to get things in bulk, portion and freeze, but I hate the crowds there.  I was in a mood the whole drive there already, for other reasons, and we got out of the car, got the portable shopping bags and I was steeling myself to get in, get what I need, and get out.  Next to Costco there is a factory store for someplace with "organic" in the name, it doesn't say on the outside that they make cookies and crackers, but I know that's all they make.  My father says "Hey Emma, 'organic'! Do you want to go there?"  I shouted "Cookies! They make cookies!"  (they know I don't buy cookies) And he says "Well thank you for responding in that fashion!"

My mom and I were walking ahead of him and she says "He's trying.  And trying is trying."  I said, "Your first response is always to try to get me to tolerate the other person, understand where they are coming from, not, 'I'm sorry you have to go through the experience of him not knowing who you are'."  (and knowing I often purchase organic food so assuming I want to go there because it's "organic" is not a substitute for emotional intimacy)  It's not that I believe I should never try to understand others, it's just that my mother's first response when I am in conflict with someone and she is present, is always trying to tell me where the other person is coming from, not reflecting where I'm coming from or what I might be upset about.

So (if I understand my T correctly) they pick on me (often for some minor etiquette infraction), using my imperfect behaviour as an excuse to dump the shame and wrongness on me, rather than facing the "hey, something in this family is not working" that I've brought up or hinted at.

What really resonated with me is when you asked about the "void" that was left. This is what I'm trying to understand, now that he is not in my life. What is the psychological toll of symbolically being finished with a parent? It seems like it must be a steep price. I feel like I've done half the healthy work by changing my role in the family dynamic. I don't understand this next part, where it's just radio silence.

Hmm.  I wonder if the next part is to fill the void with positive, nourishing people, activities etc.  Although i can't be sure, because it seems what we're speaking about here is the breaking of an attachment bond.  We had to bond with our fathers as children, we had no choice.  Adults have a choice, but I find that the dynamic I had with him remains so deeply lodged in my nervous system and emotions.  

For example, I go to conscious dance parties (aka ecstatic dance or movement meditation - music played but no talking, barefoot, no alcohol or drugs).  I had a significant emotional release tonight (crying, giggling, crying some more... .) but then on the way home I felt myself seizing up again.  I noticed a dictate in my head, said in a stern voice, "You can't have a fulfilling relationship."  And I thought, why on earth not?

Well, because a healthy man will not judge me by the same standards as my father, and that means I would be rejecting my father's expectations, declaring that I've given up trying to meet them.  Even though he doesn't still hold those expectations, I still fear him yelling, hitting me (he only spanked me twice, I hate that word, it trivializes it, spanking is hitting.  Right, so he only hit me twice and stopped himself from hitting me a third time.  But still, fear of physical violence is the image in my mind).  

So yeah, something about this "void" makes me think of an intimacy bond being broken, and I have to assume that has something to do with what the next step is, but I am not sure what.  

I just realized, maybe it's that even though we've released (or are working on releasing) unrealistic standards of "what you have to do to stay in relationship with someone", because we didn't have healthy fathers we don't have a trustable template of "what to do to maintain a relationship with someone", so of course it feels like a void.  Which isn't a terrible thing, you can fill a void with anything you like, but it's unsettling in terms of relationships because... .our earliest relationships with our parents are how we learn to be in relationship.

I have, strangely enough, found both maternal and paternal replacement figures. One is a former teacher who is very psychological minded, and seems to understand deeply what I'm dealing with (he lost his father at 20, and had a very depressed and despairing mother, so not a wholesome childhood for him either). The other is a woman I rented a room from, and she became like family to me, we've been friends for 20 years. I suspect this is common, to seek out healthy versions of parent figures and to sort of "reparent" ourselves. I'm also a parent myself (13 year old boy) and managed to find a wonderful, loving male partner who is also divorced from a BPD ex spouse.

[eeks]

When I went through my divorce, I went through a one-year period where I was pretty raw, grieving the loss, which was compounded by the loss of my dad. I remember my T telling me that this stage would be one of intense growth and it was. I remember having a lot of intense and seemingly symbolic dreams that she seemed to think were about allowing a more feminine side of me to express itself. I take that to mean that I was repairing some of the things I had suppressed in order to tolerate my childhood.

Dreams are insightful (not to mention often entertaining).  I am glad to hear that a very painful period for you ended up leading to growth.  I feel pretty stuck right now, to be honest.  I've been in therapy with my current therapist for a year, and due to previous therapy, personal growth, mind-body healing type stuff, I really thought by this point I would feel better prepared to cope with life, but I don't.  I have had many insights, but still as I mentioned, being pummeled by shame every day.

So my healing came in two parts, when I think about. The first was to stop identifying with this unrelenting need to be strong. This is what I was praised for as a kid. Anything weak was disparaged. I let myself be vulnerable and wow did that hurt. It felt like the Great Cracking, where inside was this gooey mess. Of all the pain that came my way during the divorce, it was actually deciding to let people love and help me that made me cry the hardest. Like nervous breakdown kind of crying. Just walking around the neighborhood with my dog, weeping nonstop.

Hmm.  That is the real work for sure, shedding those family rules and trying out other ways of being.  For me, it wasn't so much "you must be strong" but "you must be perfect".  

Sorry for the long rambling post here. You can tell I'm trying to sort this out too.    I think the presence of the two parent figures in my life and the need to be loved -- this was pretty powerful. But it was the acceptance of their love and caring that was the most profound.

No worries, I didn't find it rambling.  You have shared in detail and I find it useful.  I'm the one who had to cut this reply into 2 parts because it exceeded the max length.  Which results in me hitting my 100th post!   

I'm still not sure how that connects to what I'm supposed to do with my dad. I have a new partner and he's great -- it's the first relationship I've been in where I'm not trying to rescue anyone. He's a real equal and has been through his own version of what I'm going through, with his parents having BPD traits and a sister with BPD, plus an ex-spouse who has BPD traits.

The shame may be slightly different for me. I feel like I've been treading water most of my life to try and keep my head above it, not acknowledging it. It's surfacing and yet I'm not really sure how to cope with it. I seem to be withdrawing a little from people and can feel some depression, yet I also have this intense forward momentum. It's hard to unpack the authentic stuff from the shame-based self (ego).

One of the things about shame is that it's typically someone else's emotion, something they put on you to avoid facing something in themselves.  But when it's something your parents put on you, and you end up "holding" it because that's the cost of being in relationship with them, the untangling is difficult indeed.

When it occurs to me to do so, I try to "re-narrate" some of my parents' past statements with more conscious, emotionally responsible and accurate words (e.g. ":)amn you, Emma" becomes "I am very unhappy in general, I have these awful feelings I don't know how to deal with"  It takes a lot of repetition before I start to get beyond the surface rational understanding to really feel that these are his feelings, not mine.

It also just occurred to me that I could imagine a loving dad saying things to me like "I support you.  You are important to me.  No matter how badly you screw up, I still love you."  I can't even imagine a dad saying "I love you" to me... .wow.

What I do know is that loving yourself and practicing self-care can provide some genuine scaffolding for your ego to crack and the more authentic part of yourself to emerge. This all sounds very lovely, although in my experience it was excruciatingly painful... .until it wasn't. It was like screaming in terror as you go over the cliff, and continuing to scream even after you realize that it isn't a cliff, it's a 2-inch ledge and all you have to do is open your eyes and relax.  

I was bullied in elementary school (told the teachers and they refused to help, saying "go handle it yourself", ignored by most people in high school (hung out with the introverted 'bookworm' girls, because that was the closest "fit" for me even though I am an introvert by trauma not by nature, but to be honest they didn't fully include me either)  and I've been sitting alone in my apartment for much of the last 6 years due to shame about not working, failing in my professional career (which to me is even more of a failure than not going to professional school at all, it's worse because now on top of failure we have resentment from other people who didn't have the same "opportunities" I had).   So to be honest, being told to "self-love" feels insulting.  Everyone else gets to enjoy the benefits of companionship, but me, I am so unworthy of companionship that I must do it alone.  I know a lot of people resonate with the self-love concept though, so ok.

I believe what you were referring to was the practice of accepting all of your feelings, experiences, attributes... .being able to "be" all of yourself.  And of course that is painful and there will be much fear, because if you were punished, criticized or abused for those emotions or traits, you fear that now.

Are you seeing a therapist right now? It sounds like you might be struggling to validate whether your father was emotionally abusive or not. Do you feel that he was? Do you have anyone in your life that feels like a surrogate parent?

I am seeing a therapist.  Yes, I am struggling to validate whether my father was emotionally abusive (I am pretty sure my T says he was but we haven't talked about that in a while).  I guess when I think of "abuse" I think of more severe things, and I think based on what I have said about some of my family dynamics above, have made it harder for me to call it abuse.

Like my mother, maybe standing up for me but in the end, accepting my dad's behaviour, which had the effect of normalizing it and making me simply think it was me who was defective, I wasn't good enough for his approval.  Also the "lightning rod" dynamic (I haven't said much about my sister yet but she joins in on it sometimes, the manners lecture) complicates things.

Plus, the way I have and still do appear to people outside the family is that I was given all the support I needed, spoiled even, so that's complicated things.  I am reasonably attractive, well-spoken, educated, personable, so they think "what does she have to complain about."

Anyways, I have spent I don't know how many sessions complaining that the therapy isn't working.  Namely, what I mentioned above, I don't feel more prepared to cope with life. So I asked myself just now, what bad thing am I maybe afraid would happen if the therapy worked.  Then, I would have to realize that in my family dynamic, I was expected to make a good father out of the bad one I was given.  In other words, pretend he was good.  Got into a pretty good pocket of grief there.

I don't feel like I have "surrogate parent" figures in my life.  I have supportive friends, but they ultimately judge me based on their own experiences.  I need to somehow find more open and accepting people.  I would love to be in a relationship with someone like that but that's an even bigger challenge. 

Thanks for posting this. I feel like I've been hoping someone else is asking these questions, so when I read your post it felt so good to know I'm not wondering these things alone. Even though I wish no one had to feel this way.  

Yeah.  It's tough, relationships with parents.  I don't want it to matter so much, but it seems to.  

[Sunfl0wer]

Hi eeks!

I have always felt a parental void growing up, in full awareness that I was not actually being cared for or parented.  However, this is mostly a longing to have a mom.

You mention role models and such... .

In my head, I would actively try to create situations where I felt parented in some way to make up for this and to try to get some parenting other places: teachers, church, friends parents, making older friends, coworkers. (Unfortunately, also subconsciously dating older guys when younger). I have always been very aware when another is filling my parental need in some way, and I always feel great gratitude, the little person in me feels satisfied at it.

I have also practiced some meditation I made up in which I create myself a parental figure to guide, care and nurture me.  I enjoy this time.

Now that I think about it, this is probably another reason that I like learning and being in a classroom environment.  The role of a good teacher is that of a guide... .somewhat parental.

Now onto shame... .

I cannot say that I have erased the talk in my head that is the sound of the poor parenting that I received.  I am trying to be aware of my self talk and undo this... .I have been working on this... .many years.  I see improvement, however, I certainly wish I could be at the end of that journey.

It sounds like what you are trying to do is separate and individuate from your dad?  To create your own sense of self that has nothing to do with his definition?

[eeks]

Hi eeks!

I have always felt a parental void growing up, in full awareness that I was not actually being cared for or parented.  However, this is mostly a longing to have a mom.

You mention role models and such... .

In my head, I would actively try to create situations where I felt parented in some way to make up for this and to try to get some parenting other places: teachers, church, friends parents, making older friends, coworkers. (Unfortunately, also subconsciously dating older guys when younger). I have always been very aware when another is filling my parental need in some way, and I always feel great gratitude, the little person in me feels satisfied at it.

I have also practiced some meditation I made up in which I create myself a parental figure to guide, care and nurture me.  I enjoy this time.

Now that I think about it, this is probably another reason that I like learning and being in a classroom environment.  The role of a good teacher is that of a guide... .somewhat parental.

Hi Sunfl0wer.  The common thread I am seeing in these examples is experiencing a positive relational dynamic with another.  It's not that you don't have the inner "machinery" to accept all aspects of yourself and your experience, but that it's much easier to do when you have a model.  

Of course, one has to believe that they deserve it (have the space in their brain to accept the idea that the positive nurturance can happen) and accept the nurturance when they receive it.  It sounds like you did. I don't always.  Well, you know, some types of support but not others.

Now onto shame... .

I cannot say that I have erased the talk in my head that is the sound of the poor parenting that I received.  I am trying to be aware of my self talk and undo this... .I have been working on this... .many years.  I see improvement, however, I certainly wish I could be at the end of that journey.

I am thinking about how children learn what gets them belonging and good feelings, and the conclusions they come to (or at least I did) then about what is "valuable"... .

So the self-talk becomes a way of censoring the parts of yourself that people did not give a positive/accepting response to.

I could list some of my positive qualities, but none of it was good enough for my father to acknowledge me!  He didn't cherish the process of guiding me to a life and career and relationship that would be fulfilling for me and was directed by my own inner compass... .no positive guidance at all, in fact, all he ever talked about was what I was doing wrong (or could potentially do wrong).

I have to conclude that that's because he was so preoccupied with himself, his own emotions and problems, difficulties with life and his own parents, that he didn't even see me, really.  I also have to wonder if he did see me, and it triggered his own feelings of inadequacy and feeling powerless to make his parents love him, and instead of using that trigger to heal his own issues (which admittedly wasn't in vogue at the time, "conscious parenting", and certainly not in the small town where we lived) he dumped the bad feelings onto me.

Even knowing that, (and knowing that I don't need to meet his standards anymore) the dictum "You can't be this way, and remain in relationship" is so strong.  Ingrained in the body, like I said.

It's interesting, when I stay with and observe that fear, what comes up is that burying those parts of myself is not only to protect myself, but also a way of loving my parents.  Any parent who themselves needs parenting, I believe will demand parenting from their own children unless they are very self-aware of their triggers (therapy or other growth work).  And my parents' anxiety or anger was their way of demanding parenting from me, demanding that I parent/protect them by changing myself.

Alice Miller writes about that, parents expressing anger towards their children but actually being angry at their own parents, which I thought sounded pretty bizarre when I first read it, yet if I closely observe the dynamics it starts to make more sense.  

So it seems to me important to recognize that the shame, anger, or other emotions in your negative self-talk are your parents', not yours, but it's still so difficult to change.

It sounds like what you are trying to do is separate and individuate from your dad?  To create your own sense of self that has nothing to do with his definition?

Sort of.  I think I do have a sense of self, but feel conflicted over it, I know much about who I am and what I value but it gets short circuited because I fear that the world does not value it.  The aforementioned "You can't be this way, and remain in relationship."

One of my major issues is that I'm afraid to feel joy and spontaneity around others, because if I am open and defenseless like that, someone could criticize me about something and I would be stopped dead in my tracks.  I have heard of this concept of "boundaries", and it seems to me that is precisely what is being referred to... .some way to declare that part of me off-limits to criticism?  I find this most difficult when the critic refers to things that are ostensibly social norms, like career and money.