Estrangement- Have or Are you experiencing this?

[Heart Broken]

Our adult child lives in another state, has requested no contact,  6 weeks ago after an episode of rage when her father had visited her. She says she can't control her rage around her father and me.  This estrangement is 'killing' me.

She told us to seek out therapy.  ( She is in therapy herself and has been for most of her teenage and adult life but never given the diagnosis of BPD.  We are meeting with a therapist today who by the way was referred to us by our daughter's doctor.   Maybe she knows more than she will led on to since she know's our daughter's doctor.)

    I feel very lonely with living with the 'secret' of no contact with our daughter.  Of course I hope none of you are experiencing this on top of the serious concerns of BPD but if there is someone in our group who is estranged, I would appreciate the support we could give each other.  BPD is difficult enough but then to lose my daughter by estrangement has broken my heart.

 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[madmom]

About this time last year, our daughter was estranged from us.  It broke our hearts. She didn't want contact with us because of she was ashamed of the things she was doing.  We used the time to fix ourselves.  I used the tools and watched videos and read lessons.  My husband and I worked together on some of this, and when she did come back we were prepared.  We knew what boundaries we would set and enforce, we worked on not enabling and on better communication (SET and validation). I am glad to say that we are in a MUCH better place now.  She listened as we explained that we loved her, knew that we hadn't always done right for her by enabling and trying to "fix" things for her, and that we were making changes and trying to work on ourselves so that we could have the type of relationship with her we wanted to have.  Something really clicked for her at that point, she saw that we weren't going to go down the same path again.  She tried the boundaries a couple of times, and when she saw that we meant what we said it really helped.  Also, long ago we had decided not to hide or lie about her to our family and friends.  If they asked we told the truth, not in huge detail, but I couldn't live with the burden of trying to make her world be ok anymore.  I am very happy to report that today has been a complete turn around.  She lives independently, holds a job, we see her regularly, she got rid of her old life and worked to develop new friends and activities that are making her happy and building the life she always wanted, she chose a new therapist and went back to therapy and took her self to the doctor to get back on meds.  There is hope for you and your daughter, believe me.  Just take the time to work on yourself and see what happens.  Best wishes.

[Heart Broken]

Madmom,  Thank you for identifying how you coped, and used tools ( assume you meant the TOOLS category under Family Connections), especially not to react but respond with S.E.T  and communicate boundaries.  Although our daughter is much older and is living independently, I am holding on to the hope that we will be able to apply some of the tools that worked for you.  I have 'hope' because you have met with success in your relationship with your daughter.  I don't wish this life path for my worst enemy.  Bless you and thank you. xo

[Marie-Louise]

Hi Peachtree,

I wrote to you a while back. My daughter has attempted suicide three times now and is getting therapy but the process is long. We have not shared this with the family nor with friends. The isolation was to great for me so I joined a support group for family that have a family member that suffers a mental illness. This has helped me to cope much better. This group meets once a month on Thursday night... .On the other Thursday of the month, I attend an al-anon group. They help me to keep at peace in the midst of the chaos. This journey is very painful and I find there are a lot of grieving. We grieve the relationship, we grieve when they make a bad decision and in your case, you grieve her silence. You are not alone Peachtree, the group on this board support you and love you. I am sending you a hug . Getting ready for her return is a great idea. It is time to take care of you in her absence. Do something that you always wanted to do. I joined an exercise club. It is helping me take care of my health in the process. I am always there for my parents who are ill, my daughter with BPD and my Alzheimer clients. I am constantly giving so I need a place to receive. The journey with my daughter is the hardest and I need time to refresh. I also spend time in prayer. Whatever works for you to get refreshed is what you should look for. I am sending you  a wave of joy  . Maybe watching a good comedy would help you defocus from your pain. Hope you find refreshment soon dear Mom, you need it.

Marie-Louise

[DearBFF]

... .long ago we had decided not to hide or lie about her to our family and friends.  If they asked we told the truth, not in huge detail, but I couldn't live with the burden of trying to make her world be ok anymore.

I would love to ask you more about this decision, madmom.  How did you are your husband decide to be honest and what was the reaction of your daughter?  May I ask how much detail you went into since you said not much?  Did you mention the BPD by name or just that she was in therapy working through some issues?  I believe my best friend has BPD, but she is mad at me often over saying the wrong thing to the wrong person.  I hate the idea of lying to people as I am a really open person, but at the same time I don't want to betray her by spilling the beans.  The thing is I've noticed that people seem to go to her when I am vague.  For instance if she is not speaking to me (which happens often) and I mention the fact when someone asks how she is doing, and they don't understand why my answer is I don't know they sometimes go ask her why she isn't talking to me thereby upsetting her.  Sometimes she is upset over simple things like relating a night out together to a co-worker, instead of responding "it was fun."  (The co-worker was told ahead of time we were going out that night and the co-worker asked me the next day about the evening which I didn't realize I was not allowed to talk about apparently.)

Thank you for your time, madmom!

Peachtree[/], I wish you luck and hope your family gets back into contact with one another.  It being my friend she is not family, but she feels like the closest thing I've ever had to one not including hubby and munchkin.  Take care and distraction is wonderful, especially distraction with humor.  Maybe find a new hobby you've always wanted to try and dive in?  Also, if you are having trouble taking your mind off of it especially throughout the day or at night when you are trying to sleep you might look into trying mindfulness.  I am finding it very helpful!

[madmom]

Dear BFF what do you want to know? Our daughter had long had problems and been in therapy since the age of 16. Our daughter was diagnosed BPD after a hospitalization that was about four years ago, so it was easy to let family members know because they knew of the hospitalization.  I gave my parents, my inlaws and each of her siblings a book that was recommended that was about BPD and invited them to read it and if they had any questions to ask.  My daughter was fine with all of that, never a problem.  It became harder when she wasn't getting better and was doing things we didn't approve of---lots of lying, losing jobs, living with drug users and giving her money away supporting a bunch of losers, going no contact and the list could go on and on and on.   We (her dad and I) would just kind of brush off any inquiries ect. from family/friends who asked.  You know, say things like---she is doing ok when she really wasn't doing all that great, but didn't want to get into it with folks or cause worry for our family members.  About a year or two ago I had enough and I told her I wouldn't lie if someone asked me about her.  (LYING was a huge thing with her---she would lie about anything, even if it was something that didn't matter!)  I HATE LYING more than most anything else and she knows it.  I didn't go into details with folks, but if they asked about her I said, she isn't doing to well right now .  If they asked for more, I would just say  things like she is struggling with her mental illness right now and depending on who the person was I might go into more specifics.  Family asked how best to help and I said just let her know you love her, and would be there for her if she needed help to get healthy. If she asked for money or something like that please don't give it to her, because she needed to live with the consequences of her behavior.  Sometimes I would get alerts from someone who saw something on facebook (she had blocked me) and that was helpful because I had some idea what was going on with her. It was a big turning point in my mind when my husband and I sat down with our daughter and said there was nothing we wouldn't do to help her with supporting trying to get healthy, but there was nothing we would do to continue to support her mental illness.  Meaning, not lying about her condition for one thing, not giving her money when she made bad choices etc., setting boundaries we were both willing to enforce.  We would support healthy choices such as, we would pay for therapy, or we would go to therapy with her. We would like to go out to dinner with her once a week, and not talk about her illness, but just enjoy  our time together and work on an adult relationship. We explained to her that we were working on ourselves and how to do a better job of relating to her and that being honest and open was one of the things we were doing. We loved her and wanted a better relationship with her. We found this site about a year ago, I had already read a ton of books and stuff on the internet and did family therapy, but the tools I found here were so practical and made so much sense and were easy to use---it was a saving grace for our family.  We explained to our daughter that we knew we hadn't always done a great job of meeting her needs.  She was always so sensitive and different from our other children and I now know that I could have done a better job of validation.  We explained that we were working on some things to help us hopefully be better parents to her.  We explained that we would make mistakes, but if she would just communicate with us and not give up on us as we worked on our skills we truly believed that we could make our relationship better.  This really clicked with her, she right away came back with a response of  I have made lots of mistakes too.  I want a better relationship with my family etc.  It took a little time, and she had to test our boundaries a couple of times.  We did exactly what we said we would, even though it was so hard on my husband and I to do it  I am happy to tell you that she is so much better today.  She got rid of her old loser friends (and that was really hard, because you know how people with BPD need someone/anyone.  She asked me to help her find a way to make new friends and find new activities---so we found a church that has a very active singles group and she loves it.  She joined a book club for 20/30 year olds through our local library.  She found some free exercise classes to attend a couple of times a week and has met some new friends through it. She joined a bowling league once a week. One success has seemed to build upon another.  She needed a different car (hers was totally falling apart) and her dad and I agreed to sign a loan for her IF she was willing to work with us on a budget and when she gets paid each week come to our house and pay the bills etc... .  She gets an agreed upon amount of cash for groceries, gas and activities for the week that she can spend however she wants, but her checkbook stays here and we pay bills together and then she gives the extra money to me to hold for her for savings, Christmas club, taxes and insurance etc. Any week that she didn't follow these prearranged conditions, she would lose her car (which is in my husband's and I name) for the week. She tried it once early on, and when she found out we were serious and no amount of yelling or threats would change our minds and  she needed to get rides to and from work she didn't try it again. She has faithfully done it for several months now and she is so proud that she has money in the bank and is able to live on her own and pay her own way.  On her own she recently decided to return to therapy and also to get back on some antianxiety meds.  She said, I am doing so well and am afraid to go down the rabbit hole again, so I want to do everything I can to help myself.  We communicate much better now that I have learned to validate and use SET.  I do live every minute afraid of what I don't know and what might happen in the future---but it is so much better for my husband and I. We are living a much better life, and now when family and friends ask about her I can honestly say she is doing fantastic.   Sorry for the long and rambling post.  Please ask me anything.  I will try to answer the best that I can.

[Marie-Louise]

Thank you Madmom,

Your posting is very encouraging to me. The work that you have put in with your husband is inspiring. My daughter spends her money before she gets it. You have dealt with that very well.

I hate the lying as well and my daughter gets angry when I respond to other people with the wrong words. It makes you walk on eggshells for sure. Our relationship is better since I started validating my daughter. She made a comment today that she has bend over backwards for her friends but none of them do that for her. Then she said that I did bend over backward for her. This was my thank you, it made me smile. She did not want to get out of bed this morning, so I brought breakfast to her bed. My plans failed because by the time I made it, she was in the shower. I put it on the bed anyways. When she came out of the shower she saw it. Her response was: Mom, you did not have to do that. This was a response of appreciation and not of entitlement.

This mental illness sure requires a lot of work from the parents. I am grateful for this website, the tools are very helpful.

As for you Peachtree, hope someone has either  waved to you today or   or hugged you. I am doing both. Thinking of you.

Marie-Louise

[Kate4queen]

I haven't spoken to my 23 yr old son with BPD for over 2 years face to face and have had no communication with him at all (email was the only permitted interaction seeing as was one of those who couldn't stop calling and texting when he was raging).

I know that he is safe because he lives in the apartment we pay for which is in his brother's name (and he gets the only access to the rent money). I know from his brother and from occasionally checking his bank account, which is still tied to mine that he managed to get himself two jobs, one with the county helping kids and older folk learn computer skills. He's super smart.

I know that the allowance we paid him and stepped down over the last year is just about done and that after that, he will be financially responsible for himself.

I think that's a good place for us to be in at the moment to be honest. I wish my third son wasn't so conflicted trying to make us talk to his BPD brother while refusing to talk to his older brother who won't talk to BPD one. But my DD is growing up in a safe and loving home with us and isn't cowering in her room afraid during my son's rage and our sometimes regrettable responses to them before we knew what we were dealing with.

My DH and I have had 2 years to rebuild our almost destroyed relationship and find peace and love together.

I think my BPD son learned a lot and had to go out there and help himself and he has done so.

That's it. Sometimes I regret the family I lost very deeply, but mostly I still think this was the best way to proceed for everyone.

[DearBFF]

I HATE LYING more than most anything else and she knows it.

I think you answered everything I was wondering... .I guess I was hoping to hear how to deal with someone who is not ok with you being honest about it, lucky for you your daughter seemed to understand.

I also hate lying more than anything!  The reason is I too probably had BPD issues in my younger years (may have a few emotional sensitivity bits left) and I grew up in an unstable household I guess you could call it.  So the only way I learned to keep myself safe so to speak (not get punished/yelled at/etc) was to lie because I felt most of the requests I was given were unreasonable.  At the time, it worked fine for me... .then as a young adult it also worked, then I realized how silly it was just as you said about your daughter lying about things that didn't even matter.  The important fact to me is that I never lied about anything bit to anyone I truly loved or was close to, only to people who didn't matter otherwise just white lies.  When I decided to stop I was very strict with myself.  I would actually stop myself even if it was mid-sentence and say, "No wait, that's not right... ." and change everything I was saying being completely truthful.  Then I learned how much easier it was truly when I didn't need to keep the lies straight, etc.  The thing is that my friend has asked me to for her before, luckily the situations never transpire so that I am not put in the position to compromise my values, but it still stresses me out when it happens.  For instance she was fired from a job for inappropriate behavior with a coworker, yet she told her family she quit on principle because they wouldn't give her flexible work schedule so she could spend more time with her daughter.  GIANT lie!  When it came up I just kept my lips shut... .didn't lie, but didn't nod in agreement either as I feel it isn't my place to spill the beans.

She is so very protective over everything in her life, everything she does and says, so she almost has different versions depending on who she is talking to for fear of being judged I believe.  For me I just see what happens and if someone asks me what happens I relay it as I saw, but then she's upset about it.  In realizing that she probably has BPD I've spoken to only 4 close friends (5 counting one girl's mom), my mom, and my husband, besides all of you on here.  One of the women I spoke with has a bipolar best friend so she totally understands the roller coaster ride, and another of them has a daughter she also believes is BPD.  I went to both of these women for support and I truly needed it; one of them said I sounded like a battered wife at the time (many months back).  However, we've had to agree not to tell my best friend that we have spoken about her issues as she would be furious.  She would automatically jump to some awful conclusion about us plotting something horrible behind her back, when really it was a conversation about support and love and friendship.  In a way even that feels like a lie when I am just not mentioning it (a lie of omission I guess so still lying), but to mention it would probably mean the end of our friendship because she would see it as some kind of betrayal.  I'm somehow not supposed to have people in my life I can talk to and lean on if it has to do with her, yet she gets mad and shuts me out so I cannot talk to her.  She doesn't see how us talking would eliminate me needing to lean on others because then we could just resolve it and move on.

Your daughter seems to be doing really well and it sounds like her life is really balancing out and heading in a good direction.  That is so wonderful that your daughter seemed to understand from the beginning and respect your need to be honest when asked.  I am not sure my best friend will ever understand this or be respectful of it because she is so focused on herself at the moment she cannot seem to understand the needs of anyone else.  I don't believe I ever met 5/9 at any one point, but I've probably experienced all 9 symptoms at one point or another in my life.  The thing is I mostly acted inwardly, so while I have a hard time learning how to deal with her especially when she just cuts me out of her life.  Then I cannot do anything but sit and wait, but while I'm patient she just sits and stews seemingly getting more upset over things she doesn't even understand because she never asks me about the things she gets mad at.  She takes whatever someone else says as truth and paints it the blackest of blacks and then just hates on me for it, no matter if it's true or not.  That is hard to deal with... .

I guess, madmom, did you ever have any similar situations with your daughter?  Where she was mad at you or your husband for something and instead of talking to you she just shut you out?  I get how you're supposed to let them come to you and everything, but for instance this last time I believe she told people what she believed I did which was tell lies about her, I of course didn't (if she had recalled me saying I don't lie that would have ended that right there).  So in the meantime of me sitting waiting for her to come to me to talk she might be out ruining my reputation which is upsetting.

Kate4queen, I'm glad your son is in a good place it seems and working on supporting himself.  I cannot imagine not being able to be in contact with my child, but it's so nice your family has gotten to a happier more balanced place.

Peachtree, I hope today was a little bit better than yesterday.  I have a really odd suggestion... .with my best friend I hated not being able to talk to her so I decided she may not talk back but that doesn't mean I can't still talk.  I went onto google plus and created a community.  Whenever I miss her I open it up and make her a video of me just chatting about my day.  I post silly photos I see and quotes I think she would like.  Sometimes I get on youtube and select old music videos I think she'd enjoy watching.  Anything and everything I want to share with her I do, she just doesn't get it (her doing not mine I remind myself).  Technology isn't needed for this you can even just write a letter if it helps.  I did that at first, but the technology helped me remove my anger/frustration.  Now the community i have set up is less angry and more, "Hey I saw this and I thought you'd like it... ."  It might be a bit strange but it makes me feel better.   

 I almost feel silly taking up any time on the message boards trying to figure stuff out with my friends when there are parents/children/families suffering and trying to heal their relationships.  You all have been in each other's lives a lifetime and I haven't even known my friend for a year.

[madmom]

Oh yes, BFF we had plenty of shutting out, yelling, telling us to trust her---when we knew we couldn't etc.  We just made the decision to always be honest and told her that is what we were going to do.  Now, she didn't like it of course, but that was her problem, not mine.  Like I said earlier, we didn't go out of our way to tell others what was going on with her.  If someone came to us and said daughter said xyz and it wasn't true, we just said, I don't think that is true, or that is a lie. If they wanted to know more, I did explain about BPD because I think knowledge about this disease is very powerful.  Most people don't know about it, let alone understand it. Example---She had lied big time to an employer one time, and when they called to verify some of the things she said I told them the truth. I also explained about BPd when they asked if I could help her to get therapy or help of some kind.  They were willing to give her a second chance, but she made another mistake (thinking like BPD people can do that once an incident is over, it is no big deal)  She ended up fired, but I had a had to do be honest, I couldn't allow myself to be part of keeping her successfully unhealthy. When someone then asks why would she lie or  say something like that, I just say to ask her.  I didn't feel the need to explain further.  Having her deal with the consequences of her behavior has helped her decide she didn't want to live like that anymore.

[Heart Broken]

     is what I feel for all of you... .all with whom I have been in contact with on this board and to all I may not have communication but are here for support, education and to ease the loneliness of having the challenge of a loved one with BPD or BPD symptoms. 

          Thank you for thinking of me.  You make my day as I wallow in the loneliness of experiencing the painful reality of our daughter's life and consequently my own.  As a parent, first most, above all my needs and wants is for my daughter to be physically and emotionally well and to have a secure, happily 'normal' life.  If only wishing and praying for it could make it happen.

        I do hear you with your encouragement to seek out ways to have fulfillment in my life.  I somehow must find the emotional strength to make that happen without slipping into my lonely depression.  Love to all of you.

             

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[madmom]

Peachtree, like you I went through a major depression about my daughter and her condition and the horrible effects it was having on our family.  I couldn't believe the nightmare that was my life---certainly wasn't prepared.  I realized that I was grieving for the life I wanted all of us, especially my daughter to have.  I was having a real pity party about it and then it occurred to me, that although I couldn't control what my daughter was doing, I didn't have to give up on all of my dreams.  So I did a little self analysis, looked at priorities and what I WANTED out of life and started to build that.  If I want to go to the lake near our home and take a long walk, I do. My husband and I wanted to do some traveling, and for so long I was afraid to be gone---something would happen if I wasn't on guard every minute. You know what, things, bad things, were happening even with me "on guard", so we now take some trips and it has been fine.   I worked on me.   I took the Family to Family class available through NAMI, which doesn't do much about BPD, but did connect me with other people in my city that were dealing with a loved one with mental illness and that helped.  Coming here and trying some of the things from the tools area on the right really made a difference for all of us.   My best advice is to take care of yourself, that way you are prepared for the good and the bad that goes with this roller coaster ride we are on.  Much love and support to you my friend.

[DearBFF]

madmom, thanks again for your response!  I really do feel like I must not be in a position to help so to speak.  Since I keep getting pushed on the outside doing anything that goes against her gives her a reason to keep me there and then it's not just me who suffers, but my daughter who is then not allowed to see her playmate and best friend.  I want to help her, first and foremost by explaining BPD so she has some answers and can find things to help her which I think she might be open to, but she won't talk to me.  Not to mention the biggest risk for creating BPD I have come to understand is an invalidating environment which is exactly what she is creating with her daughter now.  If she had any idea that she is putting her at risk for exactly how she grew up and came to be the way she is I think she'd want to try something different than what she's been doing.  I just feel like I keep getting pushed out so often that I'm never in long enough to do much of anything, not even have a fun interaction anymore.  Since I am not family or someone she has to see regularly she doesn't need to make an effort to talk to me or work things out so she just stays mad and stews.  I don't feel that I too have to be mad and stew, but it is frustrating being the subject of push/pull.

Peachtree, you are very welcome!  I'm about to send some tonglen/good vibes I hope it lifts your spirits.