Friends... not friends... who knows?

[GreenGrover]

Hi everyone,

I'm not undecided on whether or not to leave a romantic relationship, but a friendship.  Actually, I'm not sure where I even stand right now with my pwBPD.

To give some background, she was diagnosed with BPD a few months ago.  This was after she hit what I would consider rock bottom.  Now, the more I research BPD, the more I realize that "rock bottom" for a pwBPD is much different than it is for me.   She was in the ER and then the psych ward.  Her boyfriend, parents, and I all visited her. She told all of us,  "I want to get better this time." 

Our friendship started getting a bit rocky when she moved in with her boyfriend.  She went from living 10 minutes from me to living almost an hour from me.  She wanted to spend her weekends with him,  since they both worked during the week, so we didn't really have much "friend time." We used to work together, but we don't anymore. 

When she got out of the psych ward, I tried to be a good friend.  I asked her to go places, meet for lunch, etc.  But all she wanted to do was sit at home and wait for her boyfriend to wake up, hang out with him until he went to work, and then wait for him to get home from work.  So, I got mad at her one day and texted her to say that I was tired of waiting for her to make plans with me.  Her reply was angry, very angry.  She basically told me that she was tired of me expecting her to make plans in advance and told me that she'd rather spend time with her boyfriend anyway.  Then,  she told me to stop talking to her.

Weeks went by.  I got some updates from her boyfriend,  who said he was getting similar replies from her,  though she didn't say anything about breaking up with him.  Then, out of the clear blue, I got a letter from her.  She didn't mention anything about ending our friendship, though it was clear to me that it is basically over. She did say she was sorry for not being a good friend.  She once again told me not to contact her, though she didn't say why. She also mentioned how happy she and her boyfriend were, that they were moving and getting a new place together,  and that she was working on getting better.  My initial reaction was,  "Yeah,  sure.  I bet she stopped going to therapy."

I texted her a thank you for the letter and some news about work, and I received a brief reply.  I wasn't going to push the issue because I just don't have time for her crap.

I was never friends with her or her boyfriend on Facebook, but when I logged in a few days ago, I checked her page and saw that she had no relationship status posted and that she had taken down the photos of her and her boyfriend.  Not long after, I received a text from her, telling me that they had broken up.  I asked her what happened,  and she didn't reply,  so I just thanked her for the info and moved on with my life.

The next day,  I texted her boyfriend.  He confirmed that they had actually broken up for good,  and he confirmed that she had stopped going to therapy (not sure what therapy,  and I doubt he knows, either). He actually doesn't seem too upset about it.   He probably realizes the madness is now over.

But here's my new dilemma.  I don't know where she's planning on living,  now that they've broken up.  For the longest time,  she considered me a back up living plan.  But now that I know about BPD,  I just can't live with her. I really would like to get back to a place where we are friends, even if it's just to see a movie or something once in a while.  If she asks me to let her move in with me now or in the future (she tends to move every few months), is there a way I can let her down without making her feel abandoned?  Should I just give up completely and not even text her anymore? 

I love her to pieces,  but she's best in small doses.  She doesn't have much family around here, and her other friends seem to give up after a while.  I know I can't make her go to therapy,  but if she does decide to commit to it at some point,  I would like to be there to encourage and support her.  I've tried to tell her that she needs to get therapy to make herself better,  not to make me,  her parents,  or anyone else happy, but that fell on deaf ears,  of course.

Any advice?

[Mutt]

Hi GreenGrover,

To give some background, she was diagnosed with BPD a few months ago.  This was after she hit what I would consider rock bottom.  Now, the more I research BPD, the more I realize that "rock bottom" for a pwBPD is much different than it is for me.

I'm sorry you had to go through this. It's sad to hear that your friend went to the psych ward and it's kind of you to show support.

I like your analogy with a pwBPD's rock bottom is different than ours. Everyone has their own rock bottom and it can seem like someone has hit theirs and we witness more self sabotaging behavior. The experience with my ex was my rock bottom with life long behavioral and r/s patterns.

She basically told me that she was tired of me expecting her to make plans in advance and told me that she'd rather spend time with her boyfriend anyway.

I read projection. Were you trying to make plans?

I can see how it would it would be hard with your friend's behavior, I've seen my ex split her friends over several years and say excuses like "You know P, she always calls " She would talk to friends and then ignore their phone calls for no reason, it was always so sudden.

What I was witnessing was the same behavior  she was displaying to me, ""splitting" and not seeing people as an integrated whole and seeing them as either "all good" or "all bad" I can relate with how confusing and hurtful that can be.

I received a text from her, telling me that they had broken up.  I asked her what happened,  and she didn't reply,  so I just thanked her for the info and moved on with my life.

I can see how that would be concerning. I think that she may of texted to tell you the news and to see if you were upset with her with getting very angry with you.

I understand. A pwBPD feel emotions more intensely and feel bad and need a lot of validation. I can see how that would be concerning with triggering her rejection hyper-sensitivities.

My advice would be to learn the communications tools. Do you know them?

[GreenGrover]

Hi GreenGrover,

To give some background, she was diagnosed with BPD a few months ago.  This was after she hit what I would consider rock bottom.  Now, the more I research BPD, the more I realize that "rock bottom" for a pwBPD is much different than it is for me.

I'm sorry you had to go through this. It's sad to hear that your friend went to the psych ward and it's kind of you to show support.

I like your analogy with a pwBPD's rock bottom is different than ours. Everyone has their own rock bottom and it can seem like someone has hit theirs and we witness more self sabotaging behavior. The experience with my ex was my rock bottom with life long behavioral and r/s patterns.

She basically told me that she was tired of me expecting her to make plans in advance and told me that she'd rather spend time with her boyfriend anyway.

I read projection. Were you trying to make plans?

I can see how it would it would be hard with your friend's behavior, I've seen my ex friend split her friends over several years and say excuses like "You know P, she always calls " She would talk to friends and then ignore their phone calls for not reason, it was always so sudden.

What I was witnessing was the same behavior  she was displaying to me, ""splitting" and not seeing people as an integrated whole and seeing them as either "all good" or "all bad" I can relate with how confusing and hurtful that can be.

I received a text from her, telling me that they had broken up.  I asked her what happened,  and she didn't reply,  so I just thanked her for the info and moved on with my life.

I can see how that would be concerning. I think that she may of texted to tell you the news and to see if you were upset with her with getting very angry with you.

I understand. A pwBPD feel emotions more intensely and feel bad and need a lot of validation. I can see how that would be concerning with triggering her rejection hyper-sensitivities.

My advice would be to learn the communications tools. Do you know them?

Hi, Mutt.  Thanks for the response.  Yes, it can be very frustrating to see someone continue to make such bad choices.  Months ago, she told me that everything was behind her (she hadn't been diagnosed at that point) and that she was a new person.  Slowly, "old" behaviors started showing up (self-harm, heavy drinking, drug use).  When she started cutting again, she said she wanted to get better, but she never followed through with it.  After she got out of the hospital, she once again told me that she was a brand new person.  But by that time, I had spent quite a bit of time researching BPD, and I knew that wouldn't be the case.

Yes, I was trying to make plans with her, but she kept brushing me off or texting replies like, "IDK."  I asked if she had ever heard of a wolf sanctuary near where she lives.  She said she hadn't, but that it sounded "awesome."  So, I said, "We should go sometime."  She stopped replying.  I brought it up again a few days later, and she didn't reply.  In the meantime, she brought up somewhere else we could go, but I told her I couldn't make it.  I tried one last time with the wolf sanctuary, but she wouldn't give me a definitive answer about which day she could go (some days require advance reservations, while others don't).  That's when I sent her the text about how I'm tired of waiting for her to make plans with me.

When we first became friends, I told her that I don't like always having to be the one to make plans because it makes me feel insecure about whether or not people actually want to spend time with me.  When I was in school, I was always the one who asked people to go places, and my mom was always the parent who drove everyone everywhere.  Could my exbffBPD have maybe applied black and white thinking to this statement?  I said I don't like to always be the one who makes plans, so maybe she took that as me saying that she should be the one who makes plans? 

The text about her breaking up with her boyfriend was so sudden and random.  I wasn't sure what she wanted me to say.  I've communicated with him several times, and he seems like a nice guy, so I obviously wasn't going to say anything bad about him.  I did hold back what I wanted to say, which was, "So, how soon until you get a new one?"  I knew that wouldn't go over well at all.

She is already back on Tinder again, so her behaviors are just continuing.   

[Mutt]

Hi GreenGrover,

I understand how frustrating that can be for us when we watch someone we care about make bad choices. A pwBPD have impairments with decision making and learning from the negative aspects of their choices.

Our personalities are a very difficult thing to change and it takes a lot of hard work to change. Its good to hear that you're learning about BPD.

Your friend is just wired differently. It helps us to understand what a loved with a personality disorder has to cope with and we can learn to depersonalize the behaviors. I can see how that would make us feel insecure if our friends don't want to spend time with us with having to make decisions. When care about someone that has BPD understand that the behaviors are driven by the disorder.

When we care about someone that has BPD it helps us to understand that a pwBPD have dichotomous thinking or black and white thinking and it can be frustrating with interpersonal relationships. Its not personal to us when our friends, partners or family members have difficulties seeing the good in us when they're splitting, it can help us weather the storm when we're split "bad" by understanding that "splitting" is a defense mechanism to protect from anxiety and stress.

BPD BEHAVIORS: Splitting  

Another criteria with BPD is a chaotic pattern with inter-personal relationships and I can see how she would repeat these patterns with going on Tinder.

Have you heard of radical acceptance?

[GreenGrover]

Mutt,

Yes,  I have heard of Radical Acceptance, and I am trying hard to practice it.   I've stopped bringing up the past with her when I text her, since I know that she won't accept responsibility anyway.   And I'm trying to avoid using logic when speaking to her.  Right now, it's hard because she's in her "Everything is great.  I'm great"  phase, probably because she has a new job and is looking for a new relationship.  So, even though she sometimes replies to me and has seemed to back down a bit from thinking I'm the enemy, I still can't communicate with her.

She tends to move on from people and not go back to them, unlike some pwBPD who recycle people.   Her line of thinking is that people are better off without her.  That's why I'm worried that we will never get our friendship back.

[Mutt]

Hi GreenGrover,

That's good to hear that she doesn't think you're the enemy. Do you think that she may have a difficult time trusting people?

Yes, she lies and manipulates and rages, but she hates herself more than she could ever hate me.  She feels abandoned by her parents (mom and stepdad), who don't live near her, but she rarely visits and turned down an offer to live with them.  I know it's really because of the shame she feels.  They had to fly out to visit her when she was in the hospital.  I had to cancel plans to visit her in the hospital.  So, she now feels like,  "They must be crazy, to visit me.  I'm a bad person."

I think that you're right when you say she feels like she's a bad person and she feels shame. Shame is feeling like there's something wrong with us and we feel defective. She self loathes and hates herself.

Many of us would have to look into our childhoods to relate with that feeling of shame from a parent, school teacher... .

She rarely visits her parents and she feels abandoned by them. Her parents visited her in the psych ward with you and her boyfriend.

What are her parents like from your interactions with them? How do they interact with her? Do they know how to communicate with their daughter with BPD?

[GreenGrover]

Mutt,

I never met her parents.  We visited at different times (hours were something like 1-3 in the afternoon and 7-8 at night).  They live far away.   She used to visit maybe 3 times a year, when she was in college and had breaks.

She split her real dad black a few months ago; he lives in the area.  She seems to like her stepdad.  She and her mom have had what she calls "falling outs," when they didn't talk for a while.  Mom seems to have some BPD traits as well (moves a lot, several marriages, very focused on her own wants).  Mom also gets tattoos impulsively. 

In terms of interacting with her, they haven't seen her since her diagnosis.  Mom had always acted like exbff was just a "pain in the ass."  I would say she is probably having a tough time accepting the diagnosis. I would say that no, they don't know how to interact with her.

Mom and stepdad went home right after they visited her.  This was her second time in the psych ward in the past four years.  To me, it seems like they just don't want to deal with it. 

[Mutt]

Ok.

Her mom sounds like she may be selfish if she's focused on herself and shows little empathy towards exbff and what she needs.

I agree exbff is likely having a difficult time accepting a diagnosis that she's mentally ill and a difficult personality disorder at that and her mom may make her feel like she's a pain in the behind?

I understand that you're worried because she tends to move on and not go back to people. Be a supportive friend with listening, boundaries; learn the communication tools ( SET ); learn validation and validate her feelings. Give her space for now and be gentle with her. You have a chance to learn about the disorder while she has her space?

Communication Skills - Validation

[GreenGrover]

Mutt,

Her mom has exbff's name tattooed on her butt.  So, she is a literal pain in the butt.

I know I can't make her go to therapy, but is there a way for me to express my disappointment over her not seeking help, when she promised me she would?  I can take a lot, but the thing that upsets me the most is that she made such a fuss about wanting to get better.   As recently as the end of July, she was saying that she wants to get treatment.

[Mutt]

I understand that you care a lot for her and you want her to get better.

When "I" is replaced with "We" even illness becomes wellness.

Here's an example with SET

Support: I understand.

Empathy: I can see how scary that would feel with your diagnosis.

Truth: We're still bff's.

"I understand. I can see how scary that would feel with your diagnosis. We're still bff's"

[GreenGrover]

Mutt,

I still don't think she sees me as the enemy, but it's hard to tell what she sees me as.  I don't think she sees me as a friend.  I haven't even seen her for a few months, and at one point, she told me not to contact her.  I still did, and she replied.  Then, she initiated contact. I do see her contact about her break up as a positive, as she told me right after it happened and clearly still views me as someone important enough to get that information.

I may just wait until her birthday, which is in a few weeks, and send her a happy birthday text, to test the waters.

[Mutt]

I think that you're someone important to her because she did tell you the news and I think that she may be testing.

How would that feel like to learn that you have a stigmatized disorder like BPD? Are people going to be accepting or think that I'm flaky?

I think that's a good idea to send her a happy birthday wish in a few weeks that way it shows that you're thinking about her and that you care.

What are you going to do from now until then?

[GreenGrover]

Mutt,

I'm going to use the tools on here and also work on letting go of the past.  I do think there was some dissociation when she raged at me, so it's likely she doesn't remember what she said anyway. 

I think you're right about the testing.  She said that she would rather spend time with her ex-boyfriend than me, and now she's broken up with him.  Early on, she talked about us maybe dating in the future, but then she and her ex-boyfriend got serious and she said that will never date.  So, she probably feels like I won't want to talk to her anymore. For the record, I just want to be her friend.  I think I can handle a friendship with a pwBPD, but not a relationship.

I mentioned to her that she might see me on Tinder (I only recently started using it) and that I wasn't sure if I am a trigger or not.  We have discussed some of her other triggers in the past, and when we had workshops one day at work, I warned her beforehand that she might want to avoid some of them because they might be triggery.  She replied,  "Why would you be a trigger?  And for what?"

Do pwBPD understand what triggers their BPD symptoms, or do they not see things as triggers because they don't recognize their BPD symptoms to begin with?

I know that anything dealing with rape or molestation is a trigger for her.  Actually, sleeping on the side of the bed closest to the door is something that raises her anxiety.  She's afraid of who might walk through the door.

[Mutt]

I'm going to use the tools on here and also work on letting go of the past.  I do think there was some dissociation when she raged at me, so it's likely she doesn't remember what she said anyway.

It helps to share with members the frustration and letting go of the past. When a pwBPD rage it is an emotional cleansing and it's directed at the people closest to them because we're often tempered. I agree that she has likely dissociated. Feelings are quicksilver for a pwBPD.

Do pwBPD understand what triggers their BPD symptoms, or do they not see things as triggers because they don't recognize their BPD symptoms to begin with?

BPD is the inability to regulate emotions and self sooth and to answer your question with triggers, she lacks impulse control.

For a pwBPD reality is as real to them as our reality is to us. BPD is ingrained in the person's personality. How everyone perceives reality is different than the next person. Reality is open to debate. Emotions and feelings are real.

To a pwBPD emotions = equal fact and not fact followed by feelings. That's why I said she's wired differently. Everyone's different in their own way and she needs a lot of validation and that can also help with your bff's triggers.

We can radically accept a loved one for whom they are and accept that they suffer from mental illness. It helps if we understand that a loved one has social impairments and we can bridge the gap with communicating differently and not taking things personal because her actions aren't intentional and they are driven by the disorder.

[GreenGrover]

Mutt,

Right now, we are in an okay place.  Still not technically friends, but she did reply to some of my texts this morning.  She's definitely struggling right now.  She has no place to live, so she might move out with her parents.  I feel so sorry for her, but I can't ask her to live with me.  I recently moved, and it's a stressful time for me. 

[OnceConfused]

GreenGrover:

Allow me to be frank and not sugar coated the situation and tell you what I see (my comments are strictly based on what you have written here, so they might not be encompassing, but for what it is worth)

1. First of all you are asking for serious head and heart ache here. Your heart is clouding your mind at this time.

2. it seems to me that you want her so bad that you are ignoring all the red flags: (a) continually says no to you, (b) not wanting to change her behaviors and thoughts by dropping therapy.

3. you are in the rescuer mode (your ego is saying you will be her hero for life if you help her now and she will be that perfect friend or that perfect soul mate). This inflated ego is exactly what make many of us here (me included) become entangled with BPD. Little did I know that BPD would be in constant crisis mode, one after another. The constant rescuing BPD and the in-between abuse from BPD could get old very quick. My energy was drained and not only that I was constantly walking on eggshells.

May I share with you the comment that my T told me (that opened my eyes to BPD), very gentle non pushy type, as I was walking out of the T's office.

"Be careful, this is a very risky relationship".

Looking back 10 years later, I can tell you that there are so many people out there that we can love and who will love us back, then why spend time chasing after someone who will not love us back.

[Mutt]

She's definitely struggling right now.  She has no place to live, so she might move out with her parents.  I feel so sorry for her, but I can't ask her to live with me.  I recently moved, and it's a stressful time for me.  

Hi GreenGrover,

I'm sorry to hear that. We can have compassion with boundaries. You have the right idea, don't rescue. Hang in there.

[GreenGrover]

GreenGrover:

Allow me to be frank and not sugar coated the situation and tell you what I see (my comments are strictly based on what you have written here, so they might not be encompassing, but for what it is worth)

1. First of all you are asking for serious head and heart ache here. Your heart is clouding your mind at this time.

2. it seems to me that you want her so bad that you are ignoring all the red flags: (a) continually says no to you, (b) not wanting to change her behaviors and thoughts by dropping therapy.

I don't want her at all.  I'm actually pretty upset that she broke up with her boyfriend because he lasted longer than all of her other ones.  She was the one who brought up dating me, probably about six months ago.  I had just gotten out of a relationship, and she wasn't yet officially in one (she had just started dating her ex).  That was the last time it was mentioned.  She ended our friendship at the height of her renewed idealization of her boyfriend, days after being diagnosed with BPD.  Prior to her trip to the hospital, we hung out pretty often.  I think she was clinging to her boyfriend so much that she didn't want anyone else in her life.  She even refused her mom's offer to visit her over the summer. 

The first time she said she wanted to get better was when she had only been diagnosed with depression.  I'm not going to pretend that she's going to see the light and go back to therapy, but she's only had this diagnosis for a few months, and I doubt that she was even in the proper type of therapy to begin with.  I can't imagine how overwhelming it would be to go into the hospital thinking you had depression (maybe bi-polar) and come out with a diagnosis of BPD.  And worse yet, the day after her diagnosis, her parents flew back home.   

3. you are in the rescuer mode (your ego is saying you will be her hero for life if you help her now and she will be that perfect friend or that perfect soul mate). This inflated ego is exactly what make many of us here (me included) become entangled with BPD. Little did I know that BPD would be in constant crisis mode, one after another. The constant rescuing BPD and the in-between abuse from BPD could get old very quick. My energy was drained and not only that I was constantly walking on eggshells.

Honestly, at this point, I'm hoping that she can't find a place to live and has to move out with her parents.  And like I said, I really don't think that we are soul mates, and I have no desire to date her. 

I have no intention of rescuing her.  But I'm one of two people in this area who knows she has BPD, so if she stays here and eventually reaches rock bottom and wants to go back to therapy, I can try to point her in the right direction.  I have three bedrooms in my house and only need one.  She's not getting either of the two remaining ones. 

May I share with you the comment that my T told me (that opened my eyes to BPD), very gentle non pushy type, as I was walking out of the T's office.

"Be careful, this is a very risky relationship".

Looking back 10 years later, I can tell you that there are so many people out there that we can love and who will love us back, then why spend time chasing after someone who will not love us back.

I've had friends, lost friends.  It's life.  I have a great support system at home (mom worked in a mental hospital and grew up with a mother who had mild schizophrenia and two sisters who have plenty of their own issues), an amazing job, good co-workers and friends, pleasant neighbors, and a wide variety of hobbies and interests. 

Right now, my goals with exbffBPD are simple:

1. Maintain contact and let her know that I support her.

2. Let her know that I am here for her, but that my house is not available for her to live in.

3. Focus on the here and now and immediate future, rather than the past.

[GreenGrover]

She's definitely struggling right now.  She has no place to live, so she might move out with her parents.  I feel so sorry for her, but I can't ask her to live with me.  I recently moved, and it's a stressful time for me.  

Hi GreenGrover,

I'm sorry to hear that. We can have compassion with boundaries. You have the right idea, don't rescue. Hang in there.

I'm used to this by now.  Every three months or so, she finds herself without a place to live.  Before, she always had a backup or was able to find someone who felt bad for her.  Now, she's completely run out of people.  She painted her dad black.  She ended our friendship.  She broke up with her boyfriend.  She hasn't been at her new job long enough to have someone there who will live with her.  The roommate she had before she lived with her boyfriend recently had a baby, and they never got along anyway.  All of her other friends are married or engaged. 

She's definitely self-aware enough to know that she's messed up a lot of the relationships in her life.  I really don't think she would even ask me about living with me. 

[Mutt]

Hi GreenGrover,

I'll leave you with this. I like your analogy about letting go of the past and focus on the here and now.

Some say BPD is a disorder of shame, she's telling you she's sorry for not being a good friend.

You have to make sure that you don't validate the invalid. You don't want to fix or rescue, just give her a little nudge and let her make her own decisions even if you know what the likely outcome will be. I hope that helps.



----Mutt