how did I end up so socially defective?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I don't understand it... .i mean I feel like such an outcast to the world and I hate it! I've never had a whole lot of friends during my 36 years of life and I've had a handful of girlfriends. But i dont understand why making friends and meeting women has to be so hard for me? I'm a really nice person and a good looking guy. I've had people tell me I could be a model yet women don't even seem to notice me. I'm just so tired of being by myself... .i just wish I knew how to not be socially awkward. When I was with my exBPDgf she made it seem like she liked that I was this way, but when the devaluation began she raged at me for it and put me down... .total cheap shot. Are the any of you out there that are like me? Are there any of you out there that were like me but figured out how to overcome this obstacle? Any advice would be appreciated.

[BlackandBlue]

I don't understand it... .i mean I feel like such an outcast to the world and I hate it! I've never had a whole lot of friends during my 36 years of life and I've had a handful of girlfriends. But i dont understand why making friends and meeting women has to be so hard for me? I'm a really nice person and a good looking guy. I've had people tell me I could be a model yet women don't even seem to notice me. I'm just so tired of being by myself... .i just wish I knew how to not be socially awkward. When I was with my exBPDgf she made it seem like she liked that I was this way, but when the devaluation began she raged at me for it and put me down... .total cheap shot. Are the any of you out there that are like me? Are there any of you out there that were like me but figured out how to overcome this obstacle? Any advice would be appreciated.

[rotiroti]

Hey there,

Well as I've gotten older, I have certainly felt that meeting and making new friends does become more difficult. We have more responsibilities such as work and many of my friends are now married with kids. Still, these things shouldn't keep you from enjoying life for you -- what are some of your hobbies? What are some of the things you do to meet new people?

Meetup groups are always pretty successful for me, I joined an indie film group where I've met some cool people. Meetup also covers many other interests from sports, music, boardgames, etc, you name it.

What is it that you think keeps you from meeting people? Is it the lack of opportunity? Do you feel anxious when meeting new people?

After you pinpoint the barriers, you can set concrete plans to change.

[eeks]

Not sure what you mean by "socially awkward".  Were you bullied as a child at school?  That's a trauma that can mess up your perception of how people are going to respond to you.  Other family of origin issues around self-esteem?

For me, if I "hit it off" with somebody in a friendship context, it feels kind of... .I don't know... .it feels natural and there's not much to worry about.  I think that's how it's supposed to be, so if it's not happening for you then maybe you need to figure out exactly where the snag is.  (With dating on the other hand I feel anxiety around men I'm attracted to so that's a different issue)

Also, when you say women don't notice you, are you waiting for them to approach you?  If you approach them, what happens?  I don't know, from my perspective, it's hard to go wrong, as long as you're honest.  I guess that has its limits, a few years ago I was at a bar and this guy starts a conversation with me but after a few minutes he's putting himself down, repeatedly.  That was... .I didn't know what to do.  So that would be TOO honest.  No, by honest I mean, for example, if you think she is pretty, smart, interesting, funny, well-dressed, kind... .tell her.  

And if she's going to use your honesty and emotional self-disclosure against you, that's not a woman you want, is it?    That's what I mean, can't go wrong.

I also don't know if you are talking about women who are strangers to you not noticing you, or women you see on a regular basis seemingly not "considering" you for dating.  I'm assuming you don't mean online dating sites because nobody notices anybody if somebody doesn't send somebody a message first.  If it's strangers, I'm actually thinking you could pull off this "charming awkwardness" thing, "... .I don't know what to say to you, I just wanted to start a conversation because I think you're beautiful" and if she is a sociable (and compassionate) person she will probably pick up the ball by asking you something.

I think sometimes what happens with social trauma is it becomes a vicious cycle, you get hurt, you don't trust people as much after that so you stop showing as much emotion (like revealing how much you like someone) and then if people don't know you like them, they may think you don't, or that you're indifferent... .

Also please don't call yourself "socially defective".  There's no such thing as a defective person.  There might be some people who will connect with you more and some less, but "defective"? No.

[BlackandBlue]

Thank you for the replies. The weekends are a real killer for me... .the loneliness is unbearable at times. guess I used the term socially awkward because that's what my exBPDgf told me I was when she would rip into me. I was actually bullied quite a bit as a child but not at school, it was at home by my older brother who was much older than me. Even though I was never bullied at school I often feel uneasy and nervous while there because I was worried someone might mess with me. There are plenty of other issues I have due to my foo as well. But i definitely suffer from low self esteem and confidence. I never approach women... .God knows I want to. There was this women sitting across from me at a coffee shop this past weekend and I kept thinking about how I would love to introduce myself and talk to her... .but I don't know how and I'm scared to do it. Even though I don't approach women you would think that every once in awhile they would approach me... .but they dont... .not sure why that is. As far putting myself out there and trying to meet new people, I guess I need to come up with new activities and interests. I train in martial arts a few days a week and there are some cool people there but i wouldn't say I'm friends with them. Maybe I'll search meetup and if there is anything that interests me.

[BlackandBlue]

Oh ya I forgot, I like your advice on starting a conversation with a woman... .i think I'll use that someday

[eeks]

I kept thinking about how I would love to introduce myself and talk to her... .but I don't know how and I'm scared to do it.

Women are people too.  Just talk to her like she is a person instead of focusing on "not knowing how".  It's not a secret science special formula to learn (sorry, "pickup artists".  If you really think about it, you want to be in a relationship with someone for who you just connect with naturally, not who you have to perform for.  I know that's super difficult for those of us with self-esteem issues, myself included, but there it is.

I can only speak for myself I suppose, but the most important thing for a man approaching me is sincerity.  If I'm interested, I'll say so, and if I'm not, him being sincere allows me to still feel kind towards him even if I say no.  

When I am having a good day (relatively low anxiety symptoms) I talk to strangers.  I compliment them, or make observations or (respectful) jokes about something in the vicinity.  It's all spontaneous, I don't do it with a plan, other than to create a tiny uptick in the good feelings in the world.  You'd be surprised how many people struggle to accept genuine compliments, though.

And then if you do this with a woman, and she likes you she'll probably try to keep the conversation going, and if that happens, you can always say to her "Hey, I've really enjoyed our conversation, and I know you are probably cautious about giving your phone number to strangers, but I'd love to give you my phone number."  (and if you have a business card and give her that, it adds to the credibility because you are willing to tell her your full name and work contacts)

(I'm not some kind of guru, I am only telling you how I would want to be approached!)

EDIT:  I just realized I may have contradicted myself, telling you "be sincere!" then seemingly giving you a script.  So, if anything here doesn't feel right to you, don't do it 

Even though I don't approach women you would think that every once in awhile they would approach me... .but they dont... .not sure why that is.

The first time I pursued a man (instead of "waiting for one to pursue me", blecch) was when I was 22.  At first he thought I wanted to sleep with him.  Then he thought I wanted to marry him.  Unfortunately I think that's the assumption a lot of men make.  I would not be surprised if women who want relationships and not hookups have learned not to be forward with men because the men assume one of those two.

Also, if you're good-looking, they could be shy, or assume you have a girlfriend.  It's hard to be the first one to admit interest when you aren't sure if the other feels the same way.  

If you would like to be approached you could always try making eye contact and smiling.  With everybody, just for practice.  Women, men, babies, kids are great because they'll just stare at things they are interested in (including you).  

How could a woman approach you that would leave you buzzing all day, excited for the possibilities?  (I'm asking for my own sake, I just realized I never ask my guy friends this)  

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey BnB-

I can totally relate to how you feel, I spent my 20's and most of my 30's in that place and couldn't make it better, but it has gotten a lot better with conscious effort.  You've gotten good responses so far, and first off, when you label yourself 'socially defective' you assume that identity, like it's a thing, and it can become a mantra; you might try reframing that as you're not as good as you'd like to be at socializing, because you haven't practiced, we get better at everything we focus on and practice, and the only thing you need to do is set some goals and practice and you will master it, like anything else.

So as far as practicing goes, anywhere works, coffee shops, supermarkets, the post office, restaurants, anywhere there are people, and make it close to home so you can get a lot of practice in with not a lot of effort.  One thing that works well is to focus out, focus on who you're talking to, which does two things, it gets you out of your head so you're not preoccupied with your inner dialog, which can be self-defeating especially after we got out of a relationship with someone who devalued us, we might even have started to believe it, and that does us no favors moving forward.  The other thing focusing out does is allows us to notice what we're getting; is the person interested, kind, interactive, engaged, or are they disinterested, negative, judgmental or there's just no chemistry?  That allows us to notice the difference in people and to decide what types of people we are now willing to allow into our lives, and meeting someone empathetic and compassionate can make a borderline seem very far away.

Being by yourself is more challenging because you don't have social proof, like you would with a group of friends who already accept you, but the key there is to just talk to everyone, not zero in on someone you might be attracted to.  In a coffee shop you can start with the person you buy coffee from, make it more than just the transaction exchange, doesn't matter what you say, but it helps to focus on brightening their day and adding some glee to the universe, nothing more than that and sincere.  And once you've created your own social proof by being friendly with everyone, you can include a women you find attractive; it doesn't matter what you say as long as it's real, and look at it as an invitation that she will either accept or she won't, doesn't matter, you're just practicing.  You can work you way up to "Hi, my name is ____ and I think you're pretty, do you mind if I share the table with you?" by starting with "Excuse me, is that an iPhone?" ":)o you like it?"  The point is to do something, in fact set a goal of talking to 30 people you don't know and 10 women you find attractive per week, and it WILL get easier, even if you trip on your tongue, blush, feel humiliated and silly, doesn't matter, it's just practice, and everything gets better with practice.

[BlackandBlue]

Thank you all for all of the replies and great advice... .i really appreciate it. I see your point about me referring to myself as "socially defective" but unfortunately that is how I've always viewed myself as for sometime now... .even as far back as high school days. I will try to do the reframing thing you mentioned not just for this but for a lot of other things I believe about myself. Unfortunately, I have started to believe a lot of the nasty things my exBPDgf said to me during the devaluation phase is true... .even if it's not. I wish I knew what was a projection coming from her and what wasn't. I guess the bottom line is that I need to practice you guys have mentioned. I am quite terrified thou but I guess there is no other solution. In the back of my mind I've known all along this is what I have to do. I'm actually going on vacation to florida tomorrow so I'll work on my social skills while I'm there and I'll try to use the tips you guys listed.

[BlackandBlue]

Honestly eeks, I have no idea how a woman could approach me and leave me buzzing. I guess she could tell me I have a nice smile or she likes some of my tattoo's... .It doesn't take much with me . And I guess if we were to end up having a conversation she could tell me I'm an interesting person. Sometimes I get the vibe I'm not from most people. But most people are caught up in the status quo and only care about pop culture and what's trendy... .totally not me.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey BnB-

I see your point about me referring to myself as "socially defective" but unfortunately that is how I've always viewed myself as for sometime now... .even as far back as high school days. I will try to do the reframing thing you mentioned not just for this but for a lot of other things I believe about myself.

And another piece, as you identify your disempowering beliefs, is to come up with an alternate, empowering belief and then look for references to support it.  For example, instead of labeling yourself 'socially defective', what else could you call that?  How about 'eager social learner', and if you go out and have pleasant chats with a handful of people, because you initiated it, it will support that belief, strengthening it.

Unfortunately, I have started to believe a lot of the nasty things my exBPDgf said to me during the devaluation phase is true... .even if it's not. I wish I knew what was a projection coming from her and what wasn't.

Borderlines are worthless when it comes to bolstering your self esteem and providing empowering support.  That's why connecting with as many people as possible now will make her fade and a bright future emerge.

I guess the bottom line is that I need to practice you guys have mentioned. I am quite terrified thou but I guess there is no other solution. In the back of my mind I've known all along this is what I have to do. I'm actually going on vacation to florida tomorrow so I'll work on my social skills while I'm there and I'll try to use the tips you guys listed.

Pretty girls in bikinis?  Bummer man, sucks to be you... .

(for the sake of transparency and support, that was a joke, one I'm fairly certain you got)

Anyway, it can be more anxiety-producing talking to women you're actually attracted to, so if you haven't socialized much lately, best to start with the guys and the women you aren't attracted to.  And funny thing is, if you're with a bunch of guys having a good time, sometimes women will approach you, because they want to have a good time too; much higher chance of that happening than when you're by yourself.

Oh man, I was in South Beach a couple of years ago, great food, lots of fancy drinks, hot and humid, beautiful women, thanks for the flashback man, and enjoy yourself!

[Tay25]

Not sure what you mean by "socially awkward".  Were you bullied as a child at school?  That's a trauma that can mess up your perception of how people are going to respond to you.  Other family of origin issues around self-esteem?

Sadly this describes me fairly well, I had abusive babysitters when I was younger and was bullied for wearing hand-me-downs and my family background, on top of that I had an alcoholic father. I dont have much problem interacting with people but I am certainly very cautious around people I don't know well enough.

I have a lot of trouble building and maintaining meaningful relationships because of my trust and control issues. I can never let myself be vulnerable and I don't think I will ever outgrow my childhood defenses and be mentally healthy enough to have a relationship with someone. Sucks how the external environment can have such a big impact on someones internal thinking patterns.

[BlackandBlue]

Sucks you had to go through that as well. My older brother who did the bullying was often my babysitter and I was also his punching bag. It wasn't just him, sometimes his friends would join in. If I wasn't being knocked around I was being put down with insults. He/they always had me in tears. I am like you in that I can interact with people if I know them and I'm comfortable around them. It's meeting new people and getting to the point of being comfortable that's the problem. I think I am able to have a meaningful relationship. I just have a tendency to end up with women of the cluster b variety. If only I could meet someone who is not disordered and capable of reciprocating.

[eeks]

I have a lot of trouble building and maintaining meaningful relationships because of my trust and control issues. I can never let myself be vulnerable and I don't think I will ever outgrow my childhood defenses and be mentally healthy enough to have a relationship with someone.

I once heard a phrase that I thought sounded a little too simple, "Wounds created in relationship have to be healed in relationship."  I understand your fears, and the feeling that the defenses are just so automatic and reflexive, "bigger" than you are, and how unsafe it can feel to even think about doing something different. 

I don't think it can be done by willpower alone, just pull-self-up-by-own-bootstraps and decide to do it.  However, in attachment theory they have the concept of becoming an "earned secure", which means that you did not develop a secure attachment style (trust in relationships, feeling safe reaching for others for comfort) in childhood, but positive relationships as an adult (which might need to be with a therapist) can change your degree of trust in relationships.

[eeks]

Thank you all for all of the replies and great advice... .i really appreciate it. I see your point about me referring to myself as "socially defective" but unfortunately that is how I've always viewed myself as for sometime now... .even as far back as high school days. I will try to do the reframing thing you mentioned not just for this but for a lot of other things I believe about myself. Unfortunately, I have started to believe a lot of the nasty things my exBPDgf said to me during the devaluation phase is true... .even if it's not. I wish I knew what was a projection coming from her and what wasn't. I guess the bottom line is that I need to practice you guys have mentioned. I am quite terrified thou but I guess there is no other solution. In the back of my mind I've known all along this is what I have to do. I'm actually going on vacation to florida tomorrow so I'll work on my social skills while I'm there and I'll try to use the tips you guys listed.

Let us know how the vacation went!

[Tay25]

I have a lot of trouble building and maintaining meaningful relationships because of my trust and control issues. I can never let myself be vulnerable and I don't think I will ever outgrow my childhood defenses and be mentally healthy enough to have a relationship with someone.

I once heard a phrase that I thought sounded a little too simple, "Wounds created in relationship have to be healed in relationship."  I understand your fears, and the feeling that the defenses are just so automatic and reflexive, "bigger" than you are, and how unsafe it can feel to even think about doing something different. 

I don't think it can be done by willpower alone, just pull-self-up-by-own-bootstraps and decide to do it.  However, in attachment theory they have the concept of becoming an "earned secure", which means that you did not develop a secure attachment style (trust in relationships, feeling safe reaching for others for comfort) in childhood, but positive relationships as an adult (which might need to be with a therapist) can change your degree of trust in relationships.

Tyvm for your post eeks. It has had me thinking a lot especially since I met this girl last week who really likes me. I understand when you say "Wounds created in relationship have to be healed in relationship." Your example is with a therapist which confuses me because this whole time I've been trying to build A healthy relationship with myself and trying not to be reliant on others for really anything. I have been going to a therapist for a while now and I enjoy it however to me she is someone I look to for a second opinion on my thoughts and I enjoy her own thoughts that come from mine. This girl has a really nice personality however I'm really debating getting intimate her because I don't want to hurt her or push her away because of my insecurities and the child within.

[eeks]

Tyvm for your post eeks. It has had me thinking a lot especially since I met this girl last week who really likes me. I understand when you say "Wounds created in relationship have to be healed in relationship." Your example is with a therapist which confuses me because this whole time I've been trying to build A healthy relationship with myself and trying not to be reliant on others for really anything.

If you feel that what you are doing is working for you, if you're able to increase your self-acceptance on your own without help, then don't let my statement confuse you.  My understanding is that not all therapists even agree on this, so I'm not claiming a "right answer".  

My personal opinion is something like, "once someone does it for you, you know how it feels, then you can do it for yourself".  There are others who might say, people often have more capacity to do things for themselves than they think they do.  And I don't really think there's one "right answer".  

This girl has a really nice personality however I'm really debating getting intimate her because I don't want to hurt her or push her away because of my insecurities and the child within.

The good and bad news, in my view, is that to change our experience around vulnerability we actually have to take the risk to make ourselves vulnerable.  Checking whether it's safe first, of course (and being aware of the distinction "this person/situation is actually unsafe" vs. "I can see objectively that there is nothing dangerous here, but it FEELS dangerous because of my past experience".  

Do you think it might help to talk to your therapist (and/or us here) about what a "safe risk" might be?  Not telling her your life story on the first date, but something where you can reveal appropriate feelings to her and see how she responds?

[Tay25]

Thank you for your reply eeks.

I understand what you are saying, it may be that I'm at the point where I have progressed so much on my own that having a supportive and loving person in my life may be what I need to help me progress even more.

I don't feel that opening up and being vulnerable is a big issue for me anymore, I have done things to overcome this including doing a speech in front of 40 people about growing up with an alcoholic father, and approaching women. I have been seeing a therapist every month for 5 months now however she has cancelled on me the last two times. I am very anxious to discuss this with her. It's more that I feel it is important to share with her my past but I don't know how to do it and when there will be an appropriate time to do it.

The risk I think is really just that I don't want her to feel like this is too much to handle.

[eeks]

It's more that I feel it is important to share with her my past but I don't know how to do it and when there will be an appropriate time to do it.

The risk I think is really just that I don't want her to feel like this is too much to handle.

Everybody has a past, and many people's past has some trauma and pain in it.  When you say "I don't know how to do it and when there will be an appropriate time to do it", it makes me concerned that you are still viewing this as an all-or-nothing affair.  That you'll have to say it all at once, or not at all.

What if you were to say "My parents (had unresolved issues from their own childhood/mood disorders/alcoholism/whatever is an accurate label) and it had a negative impact on my life.  I've had to do a lot of work to heal and rebuild, and I am still working.  I see a therapist, use online discussion boards, do my own self-reflection and work on improving my relationship with myself" etc.  And wait and see how she responds, and that's going to tell you where to go from there.

I can't dictate for you whether you are ready for a relationship or not, but I can say that if you tell someone you like that you are doing the necessary work to heal, and you are committed to it, and you will be as honest and vulnerable with them as you can be, and will ask for their support and compassion but will not hold them responsible for your issues... .what more could they ask?

And, maybe this woman has trauma in her past too, how would you respond to it if you were to find out that was the case?

[jhkbuzz]

Sucks you had to go through that as well. My older brother who did the bullying was often my babysitter and I was also his punching bag. It wasn't just him, sometimes his friends would join in. If I wasn't being knocked around I was being put down with insults. He/they always had me in tears. I am like you in that I can interact with people if I know them and I'm comfortable around them. It's meeting new people and getting to the point of being comfortable that's the problem. I think I am able to have a meaningful relationship. I just have a tendency to end up with women of the cluster b variety. If only I could meet someone who is not disordered and capable of reciprocating.

Perhaps you are more susceptible to cluster b's because of your low self esteem, and that makes you super susceptible to the idealization at the beginning? And maybe, as you take the advice posted here and your self esteem begins to rise, you'll recognize the idealization from cluster b's and see it for what it is - a sad attempt by a disordered person to get their needs met - and no longer be drawn in by it?

heeltoheal's advice was great - don't start with the women you find attractive. The best first step is to deal with your loneliness by reconnecting to people - all people. Get out there and chat! Grandmothers, grandfathers, whomever - you need to reconnect and, as you discover how good that feels, it will become a reinforcing loop that will help build your confidence and eventually give you the courage to talk to those pretty ladies!

[fft524]

Hey bnb, I can completely relate. After the way my ex treated me, I feel the same way you do... .like everyone else "gets it," but I didn't get the memo. I've spent years wondering why I was so uncomfortable talking to strangers, and sometimes even friends. However, since my ex left, I've spent a lot of time looking inward at myself. So many friends and family tell me that I deserve better, that I'm a good looking guy, etc... .but only now am I starting to believe it.

I've come to realize that it's like this: Like you said, the weekends and being alone SUCK. However, sometimes that's what you need. I've spent a lot of time alone and/or inside my own head lately, and I realized that the reason I felt so awkward and uncomfortable talking to others, particularly strange attractive women, is because I haven't been comfortable with myself. In times like this it's uncomfortable and even scary to do a self-inventory and to try to understand YOU. In my relationship with my ex, I spent so much time and energy and... .life trying to make things work and hoping she'd help out with that, that I lost sight of myself. In my experience, the best thing you can do right now is be brutally but gently honest with yourself.

For example, I've had a string of failed relationships, with the two most recent ending suddenly and extremely painfully. I've gotten to the point now that I beginning to be able to put the grief and hurt and anger aside and look at the common thread: me.

What was it about these women that attracted me? What was it in me that was attracted to them? Where does that come from? Am I comfortable with it? Do I have ways of thinking that are limiting me? Do I have behaviors that are?

These are just a few of the questions that I've been asking myself.

Point is, I've realized that NOTHING outside of me can validate me.Only I can do that. If I continue to seek outside validation and/or approval, I will continue to be hurt, and I will find myself in this situation again.

One of the most painful things for me about my relationship with my disordered ex was the lack of control. Now, I'm not talking about wanting to control the situation 100% myself, I'm talking about her lack of control, and the chaos that it put both of us into... .kind of like a runaway nuclear reactor or a falling set of dominoes; guess who spent 2.5 years trying to clean up the pieces?

Just ruminate on this for a while: Only YOU can validate you. Only YOU can control you. And believe me, if you're here, asking these questions, you obviously believe that YOU are worth it. That's a good thing.

We're here for you.

Now go give 'em h3ll.

[workinprogress]

Thank you for the replies. The weekends are a real killer for me... .the loneliness is unbearable at times. guess I used the term socially awkward because that's what my exBPDgf told me I was when she would rip into me. I was actually bullied quite a bit as a child but not at school, it was at home by my older brother who was much older than me. Even though I was never bullied at school I often feel uneasy and nervous while there because I was worried someone might mess with me. There are plenty of other issues I have due to my foo as well. But i definitely suffer from low self esteem and confidence. I never approach women... .God knows I want to. There was this women sitting across from me at a coffee shop this past weekend and I kept thinking about how I would love to introduce myself and talk to her... .but I don't know how and I'm scared to do it. Even though I don't approach women you would think that every once in awhile they would approach me... .but they dont... .not sure why that is. As far putting myself out there and trying to meet new people, I guess I need to come up with new activities and interests. I train in martial arts a few days a week and there are some cool people there but i wouldn't say I'm friends with them. Maybe I'll search meetup and if there is anything that interests me.

A couple of things stand out, and this is from my own personal experience.  My wife has told me nearly the same thing about the social awkwardness.  I think that is just projection on their part.  It starts messing with your mind and you begin to overthink things.

Here are some tips, just stop worrying about the outcomes.  If you approach a woman, just be yourself.  If you say the wrong thing, so what?  There are a lot of women out there.  I think you are trying to be perfect, and nobody is perfect.

As for your martial arts colleagues, ask one of them to hang out with you a bit.  You could even just go to a martial arts competition with them and watch others compete.  Just get out and do something, and don't put so much pressure on yourself.  Just let it go.  Visualize all of this self doubt as a bird and watch it fly away.

[BlackandBlue]

Hello everyone, thank you all so much for the replies and willingness to help. I don't know where I would be without these forums... .you are all really like family to me.

As far as the vacation went, it was pretty good. I didn't get to work too much on my social skills like I would have wanted too. I was with my sister and niece nearly the entire time. Had I had more alone time I would have. I did on a few occasions pay people compliments to total strangers... .its a step in the right direction I guess. Since I've been back from vacation I've been trying to do the same. For instance,  I complimented the woman cutting my hair on her tattoos and we ended up having a nice conversation. I  really am trying to get better at this but it's going to take lots of practice. The thing is, I can have a conversation with strangers but where I struggle is with initiating the conversation.  But even so, strangers don't usually initiate conversations with me all to often.

As far my attraction to cluster b's and BPD women goes (I can honestly say that all of my ex's were borderlines), I'm sure it's mostly because of my low self esteem and self worth. Like I mentioned in a previous post on this thread, I was abused and neglected during childhood and that's where it's all coming from. I guess on a positive note, having to go through all this suffering has brought to the surface a lot of things about myself that I never knew existed. I know realize I am codependent and I put my self worth in the hands of other people. This is something I was completely unaware of about myself.

[BlackandBlue]

Wow I just reread my last post... .i hope I made sense. I wrote it in a hurry on my lunch break at work using my phone.

[eeks]

Hello everyone, thank you all so much for the replies and willingness to help. I don't know where I would be without these forums... .you are all really like family to me.

As far as the vacation went, it was pretty good. I didn't get to work too much on my social skills like I would have wanted too. I was with my sister and niece nearly the entire time. Had I had more alone time I would have. I did on a few occasions pay people compliments to total strangers... .its a step in the right direction I guess. Since I've been back from vacation I've been trying to do the same. For instance,  I complimented the woman cutting my hair on her tattoos and we ended up having a nice conversation. I  really am trying to get better at this but it's going to take lots of practice. The thing is, I can have a conversation with strangers but where I struggle is with initiating the conversation.  But even so, strangers don't usually initiate conversations with me all to often.

My experience is that it can take some time (or, a lot of time) before the experience of positive interactions with others really starts to sink in and it becomes part of how you define yourself.

I will share a personal example to illustrate what I mean.  I sometimes go to a weekly conscious dance party/"movement meditation" (music is played but no talking, barefoot, no alcohol or drugs).  They usually have a theme or "invitation" for each night, that is optional but intended for inspiration and introspection.  This summer one of the DJs did a series of 3, "Serve Yourself", "Serve Others" and "Serve the Whole".   

I found that during "Serve Yourself" I felt really dynamic and happy.  I found that people were drawn to me (it's mostly people dancing by themselves, and there are guidelines for consent to keep it a safe event for everybody, but people do interact with one another) more often than usual, and my anxiety was less.  But during "Serve Others", I felt my usual anxiety.

More recently I have been to some other movement-related classes and during some pairs exercises I got feedback like "wow, so many different energies and self-expression", "I was feeding off of your energy" (which I didn't think was meant in a parasitic way, but more like she was feeling low energy and she was able to absorb some of what I was radiating)

And so I'm finally starting to go... .wait a minute... .you mean people LIKE that big energy?  the stuff that I was taught to hide or hold back in childhood because people would expect something different and (my mother assumed) be hostile or violent towards me for it?

You mean I don't have to work hard to impress people or meet their expectations? 

whwwaahhuuuh... .

[fromheeltoheal]

The thing is, I can have a conversation with strangers but where I struggle is with initiating the conversation.  But even so, strangers don't usually initiate conversations with me all to often.

Good for you for doing it anyway BnB, and have you noticed that folks don't initiate conversation because they're just as uncomfortable as you are?  They may not look it, but that's my experience more often than not, and when you do, from a calm place with no agenda except connection with another human, it grants people permission.

I guess on a positive note, having to go through all this suffering has brought to the surface a lot of things about myself that I never knew existed. I know realize I am codependent and I put my self worth in the hands of other people. This is something I was completely unaware of about myself.

Yep, the gift of these relationships, something to be grateful for?

And so I'm finally starting to go... .wait a minute... .you mean people LIKE that big energy?  the stuff that I was taught to hide or hold back in childhood because people would expect something different and (my mother assumed) be hostile or violent towards me for it?

You mean I don't have to work hard to impress people or meet their expectations? 

Whoa, total connection with that eeks.  I spent my youth trying to be who I thought people wanted me to be so I would be liked, and I got good at it, people liked the facade I put forth, might not have respected it much because it was inauthentic, but liked it.  As I've gotten older I've decided that takes way too much work and it's fake anyway, might as well let my freak flag fly, as I put it, and the folks who don't like it, screw 'em, there are plenty who do, a paradigm shift and it feels great.

[SummerStorm]

Hi, BlackandBlue 

I know where you're coming from, and it sucks.  I wish I had some magical words of advice for you, but I don't.  All I have to offer is my support and understanding.  Unfortunately, pwBPD often gravitate to people who already have self-esteem issues.  I watched a video from a pwBPD, and she said that she searches out people who have low self-esteem and can be controlled.  She said that she can usually tell within a few minutes if someone fits that description.