Interested in feedback if this text was "flirting"

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

But I wonder how you might feel about the same text if your wife sent it to another man she barely knew.

100% fine with it.

I'm a big believer in "if the shoe were on the other foot" kinda thinking.

It's one of the maddening things about the disorder.  The double standards.

FF

[formflier]

But I wonder how you might feel about the same text if your wife sent it to another man she barely knew.

100% fine with it.

I'm a big believer in "if the shoe were on the other foot" kinda thinking.

It's one of the maddening things about the disorder.  The double standards.

FF

[jhkbuzz]

But I wonder how you might feel about the same text if your wife sent it to another man she barely knew.

100% fine with it.

I'm a big believer in "if the shoe were on the other foot" kinda thinking.

It's one of the maddening things about the disorder.  The double standards.

FF

I think the important thing to keep in mind is that not every issue in a marriage or r/s can be chalked up to the disorder.

If my husband sent that text, I wouldn't be particularly happy about it - this has more to do with my personal values and boundaries, and my expectations within a marriage - and nothing to do with anyone being disordered.

Perhaps you can take the disorder out of the equation and think about how to resolve the issue on that basis.

[formflier]

Perhaps you can take the disorder out of the equation and think about how to resolve the issue on that basis.

.

Hey... .to catch you and everyone up.  Paranoia is core to my wife's issues or "presentation" of her traits.

A lot of that paranoia is about women. 

I've tried lots of stuff over the years... .but continuing to do my own thing seems to work best.

Convincing her that I am not in love with another woman (bad news... .very invalidating).

Altering my behavior to suit her paranoia... .very bad for me... and for her.

She has sent me to talk to neighbors, friends, whatever... .that happen to be female... .and... you guessed it.  Accused me of wanting them because I did what she asked.

We've done a couples massage once.  She set it up.  She decided that the two masseuses would both be female.  And it was fine that day.  Then, the accusations started that I "enjoyed it too much"... .was thinking about the masseuse... .etc etc

I relate these stories to explain... .JADE... .whatever that "reasoning" or "approaching" my wife about my dealings with other women... .not going to happen.

If lots of progress gets made and she is consistently in a good place, sure... .I might try to approach her then.  That is not the case now.

At least in my r/s... .very little gets resolved.  The few things that get resolved... .rarely stay resolved due to rewriting of history.

FF

[Jack_50]

FF,

Allow me to present my point of view on this.

It comes down to this : you did not flirt in a man's world, but you did in a woman's world.

Men live in a world of facts, women live in a world of emotions.

For a man, you were just texting her about a fact (that she was discussing with you before). It would be the same if she would have been complaining about back pain duting the ride, and you would have texted her 'Hey, how's your back'. For a man, this is part of courtesy and making someone feel comfortable with you as a person.

Women however, have an entirely different focus in life. For them, the important part of life is all about emotions, and they look at the 'feelings' side of everything. It is just their primary point of focus in life.

Hence, for a woman, a relationship is mainly about sharing deep emotions exclusively with each other.  And the big nono, is to start sharing deep emotions with others.

So in her eyes, you started to talk about feelings with another woman, and the yellow alert came on. That's all.

Now her reaction of course is over the top, because of frustration, and testing you. When we continue to live in frustration, our expressions become more and more extreme. That is a natural fact. And probably her frustration is about you not standing up for yourself. She's testing your assertivenes, your willingness to enforce boundaries, and your ability to understand her as an emotional person, with all the between-the-lines communication that comes with it.

In short, she's testing if you are that strong and stable man of the world that she craves.

And you're failing each and every test, hence her frustration.  In her eyes, she's giving you ample chance to prove yourself, but you fail every time because you don't understand what's actually going on.

My 2 cents.

If you can agree to this point of view, we can start discussing how to handle it.

Jack

[Grey Kitty]

To me... .a flirt is something that obviously shows sexual interest in someone.

I don't believe that the limits are that hard in the definition of flirting, and I wouldn't expect your wife to believe it. (I doubt you had any sexual interest in the woman in question, and I'm certain you weren't either expressing it or considering acting upon it!)

If you express sexual interest in a woman (without any prior interaction), that is a catcall, a pickup line, or possibly even sexual harassment, not a flirt. Some women get (justifiably) angry about that. Others have different reactions. Just about none of them respond by expressing (sexual) interest in return.

In order for flirting to have ANY chance of success, you need to cultivate some sort of connection and at least interest in talking to you/being with you before you even TRY to show sexual interest.

Flirting can be indirect or subtle, so the word "obvious" really doesn't have to apply, even when it is getting down to expressing the sexual interest somewhere. Some people don't need to be hit over the head with a 2x4, and don't do things that way either... .


FF, you've already explained that your wife tends toward paranoia. When she's dysregulated, she is looking for reasons to believe you are flirting with women, if not having secret families with them. You've already described it.

Given that just being friendly/chatty/engaging with a woman is flirting, step zero, and a more overtly sexual flirt is step one, your wife ***IS*** going to assume after seeing you take step zero you are at least thinking of/planning on the next steps, if you haven't already taken them.

[MaybeSo]

Men live in a world of facts, women live in a world of emotions.

All people have a brain and a nervous system that produces emotions.  The assumption that some people (men) are fact-driven and some people (women) are emotion-driven, fails to recognize that identifying as "fact-driven" is in itself an emotion-driven adaptive defense.

"did you take care of your boredom?"... .Yes, this could totally sound to me like a bid to flirt... .it could even come off as a direct sexual reference depending on the context.   If I were 98 years old and in a wheelchair... .maybe not... .I assume that advanced age of 98 would put me way outside the range of reasonable potential sex partner for you... .but, if you and I were of ages that would make us reasonably acceptable potential mating partners... .and if you and I were in any way reasonably attractive and/or attracted to each other or the potential for attraction was there... .and had spent some time together in some neutral setting chatting... .and I was complaining to you that I was bored during this time (which may be my way of trying to get you to flirt with me ... .me complaining about my boredom to a strange man in a bar for example would leave me wide open for all sorts of suggestions from men about how to help me with my boredom, and they would likely assume I am looking for that kind of attention... .)... .so yes... .your sentence could come off as sounding like flirting... .not just to your wife... .but to the woman who received the sentence (again unless she's 98 years old or something).  If fact... .when I read it the first time... ."did you take care of your boredom"... .to my ear... .and based on a a lot of folks I know... .that would be code for or at least hint at... "did you masturbate or otherwise take care of yourself (sexually)?"  We live in a fairly pornographic culture these days.  It's getting so that almost anything can come off as a double entendre.  I think it's just the way the world is these days.

Flirting is often a very subtle and friendly way of showing potential romantic or sexual interest.  Lots of people overtly flirt with a lot of sexual overtones... .knowing that they won't have sex. And, flirting is often left intentionally vague.  That way if it's not well received or it gets you into hot water... .you have a lot of gray area for wiggle room.  That's why it is so hard at times to know when a person is just being friendly, or if they are actually making an attempt to flirt with you.  Many couples get into battles over this kind of thing because it can be so ambiguous.  

The intentional flirter can always fall back on just being friendly and warm. Many intentional flirters/players use the excuse of just being friendly as a way to push-off questions or scrutiny.  

Which can make the authentically warm, friendly person sometimes look like an intentional flirt even if they aren't.  Still, authentically warm people have to be aware of how they might potentially come-off and take responsibility for unintended mixed messages.  If they are not savvy about how easily this can go awry... .they can build their skills to understand how different people may receive their warm gestures in different ways.  

Non-disordered couples struggle with this kind of thing, too, b/c it can be such a gray area. Sometimes a partner doesn't really think their Husband or Wife is seriously making a play for another person or even flirting... .but has had experiences where their partner's warm behavior is 'read' as flirting to the recipient... .this is more likely to happen of course with opposite sex situations ... .you may be just as warm and friendly with men as with women... .but if someone were to misread your intentions it would likely be a woman of appropriate mating age... .and not a man.  

You haven't said anything about the woman in your car... .was she your age or younger, attractive, etc.?  I assume your wife didn't see her at all... .but read something into your text nonetheless.  

Flirting is a subtle and complicated area of human relating.  Bottom line, if there is a lot of trust (not just around fidelity but a good foundation for general trust... .a sense that my partner has my best interest at heart in general)... .then these things can usually get worked out.   If there is a shaky foundation of trust (a general lack of trust, a sense that my partner doesn't really care about my feelings or disregards my feelings) then of course these gray areas can feel like a big deal and can get blown-up as symbolic of the underlying dis-ease present in the relationship.  

[Jack_50]

Men live in a world of facts, women live in a world of emotions.

All people have a brain and a nervous system that produces emotions.  The assumption that some people (men) are fact-driven and some people (women) are emotion-driven, fails to recognize that identifying as "fact-driven" is in itself an emotion-driven adaptive defense.

No.  I'm not defending against anything; it's just how reality works : men chose to focus on facts, women chose to focus on emotions.  Free choice is a beautiful thing, but in a relationship it leads to problems of misinterpretation.

You've proven this point yourself by (being a woman) interpreting his remarks as flirtatious, while he clearly stated that that was not in his context.  All men here did not see it that way either.  As a woman, you've searched for and assumed an emotion (flirting) behind the fact that he said those words.  So you chose to focus on the (possible) emotion of the event, instead of the mere fact (words).  

When you say "that would be code for or at least hint at... ." proves that by default you're trying to interpret actions to look for underlying emotions.

As a man, you learn to double and triple check something before you accept a certain impression as fact.  If he would have continued texting in a flirtatious way, it would be confirmed as such.  He didn't, so for a man it wasn't flirting.

As a woman, you chose to go for emotion and assume the impression as fact before any checking.  The fact that he said something that could be interpreted as flirting, often makes it so.

I'm not saying any way is wrong, I'm just stating that men have a different focus in life than women, and are misunderstood because of it.

[Notwendy]

I'm not sure if the point of this thread is to conclude that FF is not flirting, or to consider that his comment may have landed in a "gray area" where some people would have felt uncomfortable with it and some people may not have.

If it is to decide that FF was not flirting, then I think we can say yes, FF was not flirting, he is right, his wife is wrong.

Or one can consider that people are varied, with different responses.

This was a business context. For anyone in the workplace, there are training sessions on sexual harassment and appropriate behaviors. Most of any discrepancies and issues concern comments and actions in the "gray" zone. It's pretty obvious that saying " ooh you have great legs" or a cat call isn't appropriate. This would be obviously inappropriate in the workplace and most people know better than to say things like this.

The issues that can possibly cause problems between people are statements that are interpreted differently by different people. This is why workplace boundaries are often stricter than personal ones- to avoid as much as possibly, any misinterpretations.

So, thinking factually: let's look at the evidence from this thread.

Some posters feel that FF's text crossed a line.

Some posters do not.

What is the goal here? What can this evidence mean to FF?

It means he can decide he didn't flirt, he's right, and continue his business communication methods.

Or he can decide that this may not be comfortable for some of his clients and change the boundaries.

[MaybeSo]

No, this post is not to debate whether FF is flirting or not.  That is not the point.

It could potentially sound flirtatious or provocative (to my ear)... .and I believe it could potentially sound provocative to the recipients ear who is a woman... .and I gave several reason why that might be possible b/c I thought it might be worth considering for FF.  I am carefully using words such as potential or possible, b/c not everyone of course would have the exact same response, and under certain conditions I may not take it as provocative, either... .as I pointed out.   The point is... .this is an area that is very vague and differs for a lot of people and is highly dependent on an innumerable host of contextual variables.   That's why flirting is so... .slippery.  

Notwendy offers an additional point regarding misunderstandings and protocol around business transactions  vis a vie  the potential for sexual harassment in our culture... .which is in line with my observation about our current culture and how readily our everyday language has been co-opted into sexual references and double entendres.

All these things are alive in our culture right now.

It is complicated to be a human being.

These things, as well as the dynamics and overall health of the relationship between two people contribute to and inflame misunderstandings of this nature in my opinion.

All of the above are issues that are alive and separate from mental health issues... .which would of course only further increase the likelihood of complications and misunderstandings.

It doesn't really matter today what we think regarding FF specific incident... .The fact is it is complicated to be a human being... .interactions are often misunderstood or misinterpreted, our culture is currently highly sexualized AND... .even more to the point... .It is a FACT

A person with traits of BPD... .which is about being grounded in fears of potential abandonment... .would of course be even more likely triggered with the example given.

This is why we use skills to stay calm, not personalize, keep our side of the street clean,  validate any underlying authentic emotions, and move along with our lives the best we can.    

[Wrongturn1]

FF: I don't think your text was flirting.  At the same time, it did seem to introduce a personal element into what could have been a purely business transaction, which is probably what your wife was reacting to.  I get what you are saying about making a personal connection from a sales standpoint; still, that sort of personal note can be subject to misinterpretation... .I tend to keep business and personal pretty well separated in my life, so I may be more sensitive to this than most people.

[formflier]

 

First... .really no goal to get a consensus of flirting or not.  My goal was to examine something my wife brought up... .and for me to make sure there was an angle that I'm not missing.

I tend to be an outlier on the way I conduct myself in a lot of situations.  (I would say society has changed and they are the outlier... .but that is another story)  I'm pretty sure of myself... .but I don't want to be blind to the possibility I was wrong or "missed" something. 

These forums are great for challenging me, examining alternate ways of looking at things.  I can now "see" my wife's point of view a little bit clearer (and the point of view of many women).  If this text or a similar thing comes up in the future... .very likely I will be able to have a more productive or empathetic conversation with my wife about it.

Another goal is just to foster community discussion... .very common for pwBPD to make accusations about someone else's intent.  To put a "malevolent" spin on it.


Last goal (that I can think of right now) is also just getting to know each other a bit better... and the way people look at the world. 

Since we have thoroughly examined the flirting thing... .I'll say that "back in the day" when I was flirting I would usually work in some kind of compliment about appearance.  If I didn't do that... .I was "just being friendly" when talking to someone. 

I tend to be a very direct person (shocker to you guys... .I know... .    )  So I didn't spend too much time flirting.  If I was interested in a girl... .I would ask her out for a date.  I went out on a bunch of dates... .I got shot down a lot.  Didn't really spend much time wondering if someone was interested or not.  Figured that out pretty quick... . 

FF