How much to share with teens..feels like landmine

[sanemom]

I feel this is a constant battle... .two older teens who share a lot and have been taught to spy on us have been living with us.  We have two counselors trying to help us navigate the situation, and sometimes it feels like we get conflicting advice.

Counselor #1 wants us to not share much at all because the kids are very much in the middle in this situation so the more we share, the more harm it does.  For instance, BPD mom once bought some pets for the teens and just assumed that the pets would be allowed to be in our house without asking.  DH, on the advice of this counselor, simply said that these pets would not be allowed in our house.  He heard the kids come up with all the reasons that it would be ok, but stayed firm and would not defend himself other than to say that the pets would not be allowed.

Counselor #2 wants us to hear the kids' needs more and respond to them.  So when the pet situation comes up, we are supposed to try to reason with them and give them all the rationale in the world... .

DH went with number one, and the kids think he is the bad guy for not listening to their needs.

Similarly, DH was briefly hospitalized for a bad medical reaction.  Counselor #1 wants us to simply reassure them that he will be ok and not go into much detail.  Counselor #2 wants us to give more explanation because they deserve it, they are teens after all. 

And I 100% agree with counselor #2 with most situations with teens... .it just doesn't always work well with ours.

The problem here is the more they know, the more they share with BPD mom, and the more BPD mom twists and distorts things.  If we don't share, they jump to all kinds of conclusions of their own and the story gets distorted anyway.  AND then we are "in trouble" for not "addressing their concerns adequately."

I feel like we just can't win... .

I recently had a conversation with one of the teens, and I told him that he needed to be careful wtih what he shared from our house, and I was very careful in how I worded it bc I was trying to be realistic about BPD mom without making her look bad... .just like I sometimes suggest to him how to word things to his dad.  Counselor #1 said that was alienating behavior and a huge mistake.  I can have those kinds of talks with my teen without it being alienating bc she understands it already, I guess.  But with these teens, it put them more in the middle.   '

Feels like we are walking on eggshells even with the teens... .

[Blistex]

I am sorry to hear you are Going thru the classic double bind:  damned if

You do, damned if you don't.

Have you read Divorce Poison?  It describes alienation tactics and offers suggestions on how to respond.

As well, I think most Kids want to feel safe and secure.  And many times the alienating parent also puts the kids in the classic double bind:  The Kids are also damned if they do and damned if they don't.

It's sad really.

One idea my friend used when the kids would transfer to their house is to sit everyone down and remind them of the rules of their house which may differ than other people's houses.  Do a quick review.  Let them know they are loved and move forward with whatever the activities were planned.

Sort of a re set button for the kids.

It didn't work right away but overtime the kids learned to sort of re set themselves.

I am not sure if this idea will help or not?

And remember as they say we can only control our own stuff - we can't control/change an BPD/npd.  Only set boundaries.  So the rules that are allowed in that house are not the same for your house.  Pets ok at ex pets no ok at Your house.  As

Far as medical stuff, I think kids want to know their dad is doing well... to feel safe and secure.  So maybe just brief:  dad had to

Go the hospital for a bad rx reaction but he is just fine now.  Don't worry. 

I would not JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain) too much only because

It turns into a power play, circular

Conversations and opportunities for the kids to report back to their mom.  It simply is a different set of rules in each house.  The rules or expectations are different in school, friends home, sports team,

Grandmas house... .but underlying it all is to go with good intention, love, honesty ect.

Good luck!

[Blistex]

Oh wow!  Just read your other post.  It appears quite severe.  Ugh!

I was thinking on the reset button with the kids that maybe explain that rules/expectations are different depending upon where they are.  It does not make it good or bad it is just different.

So for example with the dog:  is it ok to bring your dog into church?  To school? To the grocery store?  The answer is no.  It does not make the grocery store, school or church good or bad.  It just has different set of rules.  It just is.

maybe apply this type of analogy to other areas.  For example it you decide to tell them about their dads brief hospitalization let them know he is fine and ok.  If they had chicken pox once, or a cold or stubbed a toe, sometimes we get sick and or hurt but the goal is to heal.  Hence why we have doctors and band aids, hugs from parents to get healthy as soon as possible. 

Does that make sense?

Not sure. 

[enlighten me]

It is a minefield and I had similar with my sons reporting back to their mum and being forced to keep secrets from me.

I decided to do a few things.

Firstly be honest with them and ignore what their mum twisted things into.

Secondly not let them know things I didn't want their mum to know.

Thirdly I didn't compete in a buying war. When I did buy them things though it was because I had promised to do it not as a reaction to her buying them things.

I sat them down and also said that I didn't think it was fair that their mum made them keep secrets as it put them in an awkward position and that they should tell her this.

By being honest with them and not putting them in the middle it seemed to work. Worked so well they now live with me.

[Nope]

1. We do a mix of not telling them things we don't want their mom to know and 2. We make sure they understand that we won't ask them about things that happen at their mom's because it's not our business. We remind them that they don't tell us things that go on at their mom's because they don't feel like they are supposed to so we'd appreciate the same respect of them not reporting to their mom about our lives.

Number 2 works when they are here and just talking to their mom on the phone but we always keep in mind rule number 1 because when they go to their mom's it seems to take about two days before they forget they love or respect us and become completely enmeshed again.

[OutOfEgypt]

DH went with number one, and the kids think he is the bad guy for not listening to their needs.

Whether they truly believe he is "the bad guy" is a separate issue, but if they can whine about him being the bad-guy, they can apply pressure to get their way.  What are the three main tools of manipulators?  Fear, Obligation, and Guilt?  You don't have to have BPD to try and pressure people to give you your way.  Teenagers are pretty good at it all on their own.  I went through one, who is now 22, and I have another who is almost 16.  At the end of the day, should your life really be about placating and trying to please teenagers who just want to pick and choose what rules to follow as they suit them?  That's shifting sand, and it does those kids no favors, IMHO.  They are trying to pull the "my mom let's me [do what I want], so you're mean" manipulation gag.  They are trying to see how far they can push you to bend and give them what they want.  I think #1 was the right way to go.  He's their father.  He should be able to make decisions about what happens in his house without having to justify, argue, defend, or explain them.  Period.  He can be sympathetic, but ultimately he is the boss and that is normal and good.  In my opinion, if they continue that way they should be disciplined for being disrespectful toward their father.

As far as how they twist and distort things, well I think it is an impossible errand (and one that puts an impossible burden of pressure on you) to try and stop them from twisting and distorting things.  Teens tend to do that.  Can you confront their behavior -their twisting and distorting things and telling their mom?  Instead of worrying so much about what the counselor says, what is right and what is wrong?  Is it right for you, as parents, to allow the kids to act that way unchallenged?  Is it right for you, as parents, to just let them be meddlers in your own home, causing strife and trouble?  Also, unless you know for certain that it is them distorting things, don't be so sure it is not their mom who is distorting things.  I've seen that with my own teen.  She *did* blab too much, perhaps, but her mom was the one who expanded, exaggerated, and distorted things to suit her purposes.

Including kids in adult matters and discussions is more art than science.  My new wife's children are used to her talking about adult things in front of them, but I pointed out recently that they don't handle it well.  They join in about things they don't know about.  I pointed out that they are expecting to be able to weigh in on it because they are treated like they are allowed to.  In my opinion, they shouldn't be included in most of those discussions or at least permitted to comment.  It really depends on the child and their relative maturity.