Couples therapy advice?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

My uBPD husband and I are "trying" two different couples therapists right now.  We have also been to several other couples therapists in the past and it hasn't been particularly helpful for either of us.

With these new therapists, I have been trying to convey as best I can without directly saying "he has BPD!" that my husband displays all of the symptoms of someone with BPD and that while I have my own issues, I feel his issues are much more urgent and yet no one seems to be paying attention.

I know couples therapists are supposed to stay neutral.

Has anyone found couples therapy helpful?  What was helpful/not helpful?

Do I just need to be patient?

The last couples therapist we saw just kept trying to get us to talk about little problems like "I'm annoyed he doesn't take out the garbage when we agreed he would."  This mainly ended up with us both leaving the sessions annoyed and nothing being resolved or changed.

[tm006f]

My uBPD husband and I are "trying" two different couples therapists right now.  We have also been to several other couples therapists in the past and it hasn't been particularly helpful for either of us.

With these new therapists, I have been trying to convey as best I can without directly saying "he has BPD!" that my husband displays all of the symptoms of someone with BPD and that while I have my own issues, I feel his issues are much more urgent and yet no one seems to be paying attention.

I know couples therapists are supposed to stay neutral.

Has anyone found couples therapy helpful?  What was helpful/not helpful?

Do I just need to be patient?

The last couples therapist we saw just kept trying to get us to talk about little problems like "I'm annoyed he doesn't take out the garbage when we agreed he would."  This mainly ended up with us both leaving the sessions annoyed and nothing being resolved or changed.

[Hope12345]

What is your goal of MC?  Most MC's are going to focus on communication, and not much else. Sounds like you are hoping the MC will identify, and attempt to "fix" his issues.  Expect continued disappointment with MC if that is the case. If you do eventually find one that will address his issues, he will probably run unless he is ready to accept and own what his behavior. The common goal of MC is to fix the relationship, not the individual. In my opinion, any MC willing to focus on one partner's issues isn't a very good MC.

I am sorry you are going through this. I know it is hard because I have been there. Spent two years in MC waiting for the therapist to "fix" her. Instead, like so many others have experienced on this board, the MC seemed to focus on me to make changes. In hindsight, I wonder if it is because the MC realizes that us non's are the easiest changeable factor in the equation and focusing on the BPD partner would be futile in a couples therapy environment.

For me, traditional MC allowed me to "fix" myself by helping me identify the role I played in the marriage problems. It did absolutely nothing to change my BPDw so the marriage itself saw little improvement.

Until the BPD partner is willing to own and address their behaviors, you will continue to be left spinning.  All you can do is work on you.  If reading that only leaves you frustrated, I understand. Took me a while to really internalize it myself, but it was very liberating when I did.

[HopefulDad]

Yeah, couples therapy can't fix dysfunction caused by BPD.  If the therapist is trained in identifying PDs, though, it can be useful if you're looking for some confirmation about your SO's condition.  I received that from both of the MCs we tried.

No matter what your goals are in going to couples therapy (or any therapy in general), it takes several sessions for the therapist to gauge what's going on.  Sorting out the "he said/she said" can't be done in a session or two, or even five.  This is true even for mentally healthy spouses.

[formflier]

 

I'll echo the comments to focus on communication and "relationship dynamics".

Rather than say "he has BPD"... .much better to focus on. 

Discussing with and informing the BPD partner that you will no longer participate in abusive conversations... .or conversations after 10pm... .or some other issue that is a "BPD trait"

Note:  You haven't accused them of doing it.  If they aren't doing it there should be no reason for them to disagree.

Focus on "understanding" the message your partner is sending.  "So partner when you said xyz to me I don't understand what you were saying... .can you help me understand what you wanted to communicate."

partner:  "I didn't say xyz to you... "

you:  "Oh... .it's here is my text log we can review it with the MC... ."

Stay calm... .don't accuse... .ask for understanding.  Let the MC guide them.

If you think you are making progress.

Ask the MC.  "What do you see are some individual things we can each focus on to make the marriage better... ."


If the BPD partner is not in treatment... .change through MC only is long.

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

I wish I'd listened more to the few people who advised me not to do marriage therapy. It's made me feel much worse, not better. Marriage therapy works best when BOTH people will do the work, take responsibility, and look at their contribution. Guess what? Most with a PD, can't or won't do that, so therapists tend to work on the partner that is willing to, meaning the NON. This amounts to things feeling even further off balance, than they already were.

I'm all for using the tools here, and "not making things worse", and looking at our contribution, but marriage therapy, just threw a huge monkey wrench in our already tense situation. I'd leave there feeling ganged up on(it felt like a strong male bias from our therapist, even though I really liked him), and like all the focus was on ME changing, or adjusting. BPDh would zone out during the session, unless he wanted to accuse me of things, or play victim. It was totally, NOT PRODUCTIVE, in any way.

Marriage therapists are taught to "not take sides", and that may work when there isn't a PD involved, but there is a huge imbalance already built into PD relationships. I think of them as being comparable to being married to someone with an addiction almost. Until the person with the addiction, admits it, and seeks help, things don't and can't get better. We are taught here than our actions can improve things in dealing with a pwBPD, and I think in lots of cases, that can be true. In my case, even diligently using and tweaking the tools, BPD just seems to be low functioning at home, with ME. I went into marriage therapy hopeful it might help "some", but it turned out to just make things worse.

I will not do marriage therapy again, until BPDh is in a better place. Until he stops trying to lay all blame on me, and is willing to share the burden of "effort", and stop trying to get ME to do all the accommodating for his control issues, and anger. I'm hoping with DBT, he'll get there, but until he does, I'm more than happy to just do individual therapy for ME.

[Reforming]

Hi TM

I went to two different couple MC with my uBPD ex, both on my instigation.

The first after a violent episode; and the 2nd after I discovered she was having an affair.

The first counsellor tried to tell my ex that she needed individual therapy; she never followed up on this

The second, at the end of our relationship tried tried to help us rebuild our relationship.

I'd agree with a lot of what is said by the other posters. MC is a tough gig and therapist by often begin by trying to rebuild communication rather than allocating blame - this just polarises couples and doesn't help you move forward.

It's almost impossible to rebuild or heal a relationship unless both partners really committed to doing the work on themselves.

But people can engage / progress at different rates so and frequently couples go into MC believing their partner is completely to blame for all of their problems. Even if this is the case and it rarely is; blame doesn't resolve anything.

I think MC can help us understand the dynamics of a relationship and learn really useful skills.

Do I think it was worthwhile? Yes definitely.

I wanted to make my relationship work and I tried the best I could. I didn't go in believing that I played no part in our problems. I wanted to find a away forward and I couldn't, which was very sad. But the process also empowered me to regain control and end my relationship.

At the time I felt very frustrated and angry that MC didn't fix my relationship and my ex.  But it helped me to recognise and accept the reality of my relationship, the part I played and begin to work on myself.

Not the outcome I wanted, but the healthiest one for me.

If you're interested in reading about how a therapist a approaches a borderline relationship I'd recommend reading Joan Lachkar's book, the Narcissistic / Borderline Couple. New Approaches to Marital Therapy

www.amazon.com/The-Narcissistic-Borderline-Couple-Approaches/dp/0415934710

I found it very revealing and interesting. I'm not suggesting that your relationship falls into the same category, but Lachkar has some fascinating insights into the dynamic of many BPD relationships. She also explains the process of counselling a couple when someone who has a PD


Good luck

Reforming

[teapay]

I've done the MC with my wife a few times and it was always a bust.  I feel and do much better not doing it than when we are doing it.  At best, it may help you learning communication techniques so you don't trigger him as much and thereby improve the relationship that way.  It won't likely do much for the other issues and hurts that you have in the marriage.  That stuff you may have to deal with on your own with your own T.  I've found the whole MC very invalidating to me.

[formflier]

 

Hey... .I'm a fan of going to MC... .ESPECIALLY... if there is a PD involved.

I've had great experiences in MC... .and I have had horrible experiences in MC.  It was about the 4th or 5th MC we ever went to that mentioned BPD and the SWOE book.  I had never heard of either.

This was after the counselor refused to allow my wife to "bully" and rewrite history about what had just been said.  Literally a few minutes earlier. 

I kid you not when I say my wife jumped up and stomped and danced around the room,  while pointing at both of us, accusing us of thoughts... .and then exclaiming that she would never be back.  She left... .I stayed for rest of session and got a 30 minute or so lesson in BPD.

To the MCs credit she kept stressing that she hadn't spent enough time to formally diagnose BPD but she explained the traits thing and sort of gave me a lecture about not worrying about a diagnosis.  Read the book and focus on behavior was sort of the advice.

I can see that many would say my wife storming out was a "fail".  I see it as a "win" because it was a turning point.  Things got clarified... .I had choices... .and I made them.

One of my wife's go to things was nobody had "told" her she needed help.  After several MC's recommended she seek individual therapy... she finally did.  With a PD involved... .doubtful the first few messages will sink in.

There were many times I left a MC session feeling horrible... .like I was a failure and had been kicked in the gut.  I used and remembered those feelings to give me energy to make needed changes.

I get it that I am likely in the minority on bpdfamily about recommending MC for people with PDs (and I totally accept that I'm kinda going against the "formal" recommendation about that).

For those that "know" me on here... .probably no shock that I'm comfortable holding a minority position on something... .

Anyway... for me... going to MC represents hope... represents effort.  Represents a chance for change.

Even if there is only one productive session out of 5 (or worse)... .that's one more productive session than if you didn't go at all.

I do stress that the nons need to set expectations appropriately.  There is no "fix" in MC... .there are baby steps.

If you are going to be a stayer... .there is going to be some hard work involved... .and some bad feelings that we are going to have to work through.  Don't run from that... .embrace it... .step up to the challenge.

[Sluggo]

I just posted what I have just discovered in a MC appointment before reading this post.  I have been going to a joint MC for about 5 months.  We had been working on me these last 5 months about 3 hours a week.  Which I have made progress 

There was a sense of 'I am glad someone else can affirm/share with me what I have experienced first hand'.  We brought a video in of a discussion we had.  It was recommended by the therapist to video tape our conversations as my ppdw & my perceptions of our so different and we spend most of the time trying to state what really happened. 

So this time there was a video.  This was great as I saw the MC go through the video and point out unhealthy, hurtful, condescending, shaming statements she said to me were.  I was embarrassed as that was a somewhat calm discussion by my wife as she knew she was being tapped. 

However, the information may have overwhelmed my wife and not sure what is going to happen now. 

[formflier]

However, the information may have overwhelmed my wife and not sure what is going to happen now. 

Something will change... .

You will have a big influence on how and what will change.

I see two choices... .

1.  "See wife... .you are the one making condescending remarks and being bad... .you change!"   (anyone want to guess how this will work)

2.  "Wow!... .I never understood how destructive "unhealthy" (use therapists words) communication was to our marriage.  I will do my best to not participate in unhealthy communication in the future"   

Remember... .own your side of it as best you can.  There is always a "your side" (very different than saying you were wrong). 

What do you see yourself "doing" with each of those statements above?  Remember... pwBPD will notice your actions... more than your words.  It is important that words and actions align.  Slight rephrase:  It is important that you decide that your words and actions align (especially if you have a T and us at bpdfamily agreeing that you are being consistent).  Don't base this on your wife agreeing that your words and actions align. 

FF

[Sluggo]

I see two choices... .

1.  "See wife... .you are the one making condescending remarks and being bad... .you change!"   (anyone want to guess how this will work)

2.  "Wow!... .I never understood how destructive "unhealthy" (use therapists words) communication was to our marriage.  I will do my best to not participate in unhealthy communication in the future


Yes I definitely see the difference

#1 is blaming the other

#2 is taking ownership of my part in the unhealthy communication. Even if that is just listening to it and not reacting.  Because what happens if I do that is I go down into a depressed state or blow up. 

I like the word choice.  I will practice that.  Yes I have learned a lot on how I have participated in all of this.  I have allowed it and not have taken myself out of the situation.  More and more I see the words that only you can change yourself seem more and more true. 

[formflier]

  I have allowed it and not have taken myself out of the situation.

I think you are spot on here... .very good analysis from a "boundaries" perspective!  In my experience... .it is the most important perspective to have.

Not saying validation and a host of other tools aren't important... .but... IMO... boundaries are #1.

More and more I see the words that only you can change yourself seem more and more true.  

This sounds good... .but I think you missed it by a wide margin.

Again... think mindset... .think about the people and their mindset when they say the following statments.

1.  "More and more I see the words that only you can change yourself seem more and more true."

compared to a person that says

2.  "Change starts with yourself.  If two people are in an unhealthy dynamic and one part of that dynamic starts making healthier choices, the other will be change as a result.  I will lead and demonstrate that change is possible"

Mindset is critical... .

FF

[teapay]

If you want the most bang for your buck, time and effort put it into your own therapy.  You can learn the tools and skills for validating, communicating and setting boundaries in that context and what works for you.  It will also give you a forum to share things and make personal decisions without spouse involvement and influence.  This strategy is not dependent upon what your spouse does or doesn't do or whether they get better or not.  If your spouse is in therapy and they are making progress then MC might be more productive, but maybe not needed.

[Sluggo]

1.  "More and more I see the words that only you can change yourself seem more and more true."

compared to a person that says

2.  "Change starts with yourself.  If two people are in an unhealthy dynamic and one part of that dynamic starts making healthier choices, the other will be change as a result.  I will lead and demonstrate that change is possible"

Mindset is critical... .

Yes I do see the difference after it is put that way.  Thank you.