I have a problem -> you need to fix it

[ArleighBurke]

Yesterday was horrible. Both my BPDw and I work late on Mondays. So I came home at 5:30pm (picking the kids up from school on the way). I launched straight into cooking dinner which I had ready in 15mins. So the kids and I sat and ate. When we finished they went to the TV, but as I was cleaning up I ordered them off to unpack bags and get PJs on etc. About 5 mins later my wife comes home (about 6:10pm). So I heat up her meal and sit with her to chat while she eats. After, she sits with the youngest (6yrs) to read, but the child is too tired to really want to read, isn't cooperating, so wife and child get annoyed with each other and sparks fly.

So wife launches into me. Tells me it's not fair that she needs to be the bad parent, that she needs to read with the children (why can't I), that since I'm part time (0.8!) I need to do everything, that she sacrificed for so many years when she wasn't working... .etc. Quite normal for someone responding to emotion I know.

But the wierd thing is that as i listened, and validated, and didn't JADE, wife said a few times that she felt GUILTY. That the youngest didn't get all the same attention that the older 2 kids got. That wife knew she was working really long hours and couldn't give as much to the youngest.

But if she has that insight - to know that she feels guilt - why is she still projecting it onto ME to fix! Why is her solution for ME to do more/everything? (This is a normal situation - any problem my wife identifies is then up to ME to fix. She's even phoned me up during the day to ask if I can call to book a medical appointment for her becuse she's too busy to call!)

Frustrating.

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[dacoming]

I understand you man!  My wife seems to blame me for everything and doesn't seem to see anything I do.  I take our son to school every morning before I go to work.  The school is about a 3 minute drive from the house.  To do this, I had to get permission from the boss to report at 9 everyday instead of 8.  She can't take him to school because "her sleep is messed up" and she's "always in pain."  No problem.  I go to most if not all of his IEP meetings, usually taking off work to do it.  I help him with homework when he asks me to.  I wash our clothes and put them away weekly.  I do the yard work.  At times, I clean our BR and bath room.  Our daughters cook and clean. However, she constantly complains that we load everything on her and she's sick and can't sit back and get well because of us.  She got mad the other day because she feels I don't back her up and yell at the girls to clean up right so I don't care that the house is getting tore down.  However, the girls are grown and she is home all day with them; since you seem to like arguing and blowing up about everything; why is it so much for you to stay on them?  You don't physically do it!  When I tried to do it when they were younger, she always let them off the hook and accused me of being the wicked stepfather!  So I backed off.  Besides, I'm not the yeller, she is.

[waverider]

But if she has that insight - to know that she feels guilt - why is she still projecting it onto ME to fix! Why is her solution for ME to do more/everything? (This is a normal situation - any problem my wife identifies is then up to ME to fix. She's even phoned me up during the day to ask if I can call to book a medical appointment for her becuse she's too busy to call!)

Frustrating.

Because she knows she is doing a bad job, and is not organised enough to fix the problem so she "needs" you to do it. pwBPD are quite good at doing what they have the urge, or desire to do, but when it comes to responsibilities or obligations (chores), they simply can't motivate, even if they have the insight to know they are not pulling their weight. It almost like a phobic reaction, they are convinced they can't do something so they just avoid even trying.

My wife is always telling me she feels guilty for leaving all the housework to me... .HUH? so why not do something about it... .not going to happen. Its almost as though admitting it is enough of an excuse not to do anything.

I think it is a motivation issue, they simply dont have a powerful enough urge to actually get started. Almost like they get "caught in the headlights"

[Anise]

I see this in my husband a lot. I would ask him to help with something that would be physically hard for me (pulling the stove out to get to something behind it, for example), and he would do it part way, complain about his hurting back, and then need my help to finish the task.  I tried just watching him flail around before, but it's just too pathetic to witness.  I haven't learned to just walk away.

On some level I feel guilty being a bit cold like that, but at the same time, I know he exaggerates whatever level of pain he experiences.  He caught his foot on a step recently, then complained that his foot was broken.  I offered to take him to the doctor (which he hates), and he said he didn't want to go.  I was more than annoyed at the time, so I said "hmm, must not be that serious then", which got me the cold shoulder the rest of the night. A few days later we went to get foot massages, and he commented on how much it helped the 'broken' foot.  I pointed out that if it was really broken, it would have swollen and he wouldn't want anyone touching it, let alone massaging it.  I probably should try to be more validating, but at this point I know it's a game he plays to get loving attention, and it really annoys me that he tries to suck me into it.

I know he has subconsciously put me in his mother's role, so I wonder if the only time his mom paid attention to him was when he was (genuinely) hurt.

[ArleighBurke]

Waverider: This makes sense. My wife always is the martyr - "I can't do that because of (something that i perceive I can't control)... .". So she doesn't have to admit that she's lazy, or just can't bothered at the moment - because they are "negative" character traits. (Even though they are normal feelings - we all miss things sometimes because we can't be bothered... .)


My D6's sandal broke this morning. So i told her to wear sneakers to school. Wife thought instead I should magically fix it in the 30mins before school started... .

Wife: "You don't care about our daughters comfort" (it's a really hot day).

  Me:  Please don't tell me what i think or feel (as per our agreement)

Wife: "I FEEL LIKE you don't care about our daughters comfort".

  Me: Ok - I'm sorry you feel that way... .

Wife: What are you going to do about it?

Well I don't have to do anything do I? It's HER feeling - which probably has about 20% to do with reality and 80% to do with her upbringing and having shoes was never a given and a sign in her childhood that they were poor.

Again, she's aware that it's HER FEELING and not what i actually believe. But she still wants ME to change SOMETHING that I do to change how she feels. This is my #1 desire - for her to be able to see that if it's HER feeling, generated by HER brain, then there is nothing that I need to do (or can do) except sympathise with her!

[Cat Familiar]

Something I've noticed with my husband is that he dreads doing certain tasks and thinks about it a lot and feels a sense of injustice that he has to do it. I think it's different with a non. For me, I might postpone cleaning out and washing the kitty litter boxes, as an example of a not fun task, but I don't think about it for hours and feel victimized that I have to do it. I just do it.

[maxsterling]

I guess we all deal with this? 

I'm almost never sitting on my butt just watching TV.  I work two jobs, come home from the second, start cleaning up the dishes, house, etc.  Wife says she feels guilty that I am doing the housework, and insists I stop.  Blames me for making her feel guilty.  Huh?  She sat all evening watching TV.  She CHOSE to not do housework.  If she feels guilty for not helping out around the house, she has the opportunity to do something about it.  It's either that, or watch me do it, because I want it to get done. 

That's one area where I still struggle with this disorder.  W can vocalize to me all day long about how she has no motivation, needs to do this or that, can talk through the solutions to her problems, but when it comes down to it - still behaves the same.  From my end, I hear her talk and think - "great insight - now things are improving!"   Then when things stay the same, I feel extremely frustrated.

On the other hand, W did actually cook something the other night (first time in months), and has actually done a few dishes recently.  So, she has found some motivation.  Just sloow progress.

[Notwendy]

My H has some kind of concern about being blamed for something- even if he did it.

I noticed the other day that a soap container was leaking. I mentioned it and the first thing he said was "I didn't do it".

This time, I just got ticked at the constant response and said " From here on now, just know that you are to be considered blameless for everything, nothing is your fault".

Lol, a little over the top, but if I say something it isn't about blaming him, even if he did do it. The goal of discussing things isn't to put a blame on somebody. In this case, it was a leak, probably nobody did it.

My mother with BPD would blame me for things that were her responsibility. Once she yelled at me because she had missed an appointment with the doctor and I had to fix it. I didn't even know she had an appointment, and I wasn't at home when she was getting ready for it. Yet she was still telling me it was my fault.

[Cat Familiar]

My husband, like yours, Notwendy, frequently denies culpability for things, even when it's obvious that it was he who is responsible.

i try to frame discussions without blame, more like how are we going to fix this, replace this, take care of this? But, I can almost count on it, the first words out of his mouth are to protest his innocence. (It reminds me of a young child, cookie in hand, caught with the broken cookie jar on the floor.)

In his world, there is no actor, no subject. "That fell down... it broke... .it quit working... .it got wrecked... .something destroyed it... .somehow it got damaged." It used to drive me crazy because he was blaming objects for their own demise when clearly a human hand was involved.

Now I realize he has such a burden of shame from his FOO that he cannot bear to claim responsibility for damaging something.

[waverider]

On the other hand, W did actually cook something the other night (first time in months), and has actually done a few dishes recently.  So, she has found some motivation.  Just sloow progress.

Unlikely to last, the motivation is still not right. Most likely it was not done because she thought it needs doing, it was most likely done to make it look like she was doing something, so I am pretty sure she made it obvious that she had done something.

Until the reasons for doing something is corrected, nothing will last. Its a mindset thing. It is your mindset to be busy and get things done that is your momentum that carries you from one task to the next, her mindset is to wish for things to "just happen'. It takes a personality change to bridge that gap to a different normality.

Its like the old adage, "if you want something done give it to a busy person" their mindset is already in the "do it" mode, they have momentum.

[Notwendy]

Yes, Cat, he got this from his father, and I can't undo this.

I didn't realize that the kids picked up on this. We were talking about a family that had moved a while back- they had children the same ages as mine. One of my kids said " I remember the dad- because we were playing and broke something ( it was something minor) accidentally, and he said it wasn't a big deal. This was the first time I realized that all dad's didn't get mad at these things".

My H wasn't around as the kids would not have said this to him. Fortunately, they aren't traumatized by this. The kids were mostly around me, and I also didn't get angry at the usual things kids do. Kids should learn to be respectful of people's things and things like furniture, etc, but if they are playing and a toy breaks, or they spill their juice, or something really minor, then punishment is excessive.

Even where consequences are warranted, shaming is not. A parent can say " We need to take care of our nice things" " Not criticize the child's core self.

Soap dish spills? "Ok kids, lets get a towel and wipe this up" is a kinder, gentler lesson. My FIL would have called my H an idiot and yelled at him about what he did and shame him. Fortunately my H didn't do this to the kids, but he did seem to get angry at little things. I didn't.

My mother's response to something like this- had I done it- would have likely been " She spilled that soap dish on purpose"

[an0ught]

Hi ArleighBurke,

My D6's sandal broke this morning. So i told her to wear sneakers to school. Wife thought instead I should magically fix it in the 30mins before school started... .

Wife: "You don't care about our daughters comfort" (it's a really hot day).

 Me:  Please don't tell me what i think or feel (as per our agreement)

Wife: "I FEEL LIKE you don't care about our daughters comfort".

 Me: Ok - I'm sorry you feel that way... .

Wife: What are you going to do about it?

Well I don't have to do anything do I? It's HER feeling - which probably has about 20% to do with reality and 80% to do with her upbringing and having shoes was never a given and a sign in her childhood that they were poor.

Again, she's aware that it's HER FEELING and not what i actually believe. But she still wants ME to change SOMETHING that I do to change how she feels. This is my #1 desire - for her to be able to see that if it's HER feeling, generated by HER brain, then there is nothing that I need to do (or can do) except sympathise with her!

I would see this as some form of extinction burst. She is trying to shove stuff to your side which clearly does not belong there - ignoring knowledge and clear signals. It will take a while but consistent boundary focus will help here. It is important that this stops working for her otherwise she will not have a reason to stop what is a wining formula  

One thing worth considering is what makes her attempts so successful and even if not successful make her attempts to go under your skin so much. How to you feel about not helping? How do you feel about letting her or others fail? How do you prioritize conflicting demands, some of them closer to you?

It is important to maintain a balanced and boring (unless you intentionally want to push an emotion) mental stance but this is difficult to be faked. Thus the questions above. If she escalates remove yourself. She needs to recognize and tackle her own problems.

[ArleighBurke]

an0ught said: It is important to maintain a balanced and boring mental stance

I am able to do this, but I'm not sure if it's healthy.

When she starts a clrealy irrational arguement/rant, I do detach, I don't get emotional. But my mindset is a combination of "mild amusement" and "being reminded that my marriage is a sham". Which unfortunately means I'm not sincere in validation - more "pat on the head" type.

It probably doesn't help any.

[waverider]

an0ught said: It is important to maintain a balanced and boring mental stance

I am able to do this, but I'm not sure if it's healthy.

When she starts a clrealy irrational arguement/rant, I do detach, I don't get emotional. But my mindset is a combination of "mild amusement" and "being reminded that my marriage is a sham". Which unfortunately means I'm not sincere in validation - more "pat on the head" type.

It probably doesn't help any.

The difference is whether its impartial detachment or condescending detachment. eg the approach a therapist may take compared to the resentment of an overwhelmed partner.

Its no good if we stop engaging because we think they are just being a PTA and nothing they say has any value. This is not centered, its just shutting down in a negative way

[ArleighBurke]

Damn. I'm doing the condescending detachment.

So for impartial detachment - I need to listen and try to see from her point of view? Validation. I need to take interest, but not be involved. I need to care what she says, without taking it to heart or necessarily agreeing with her.

[flourdust]

I struggle with not being in condescending detachment, too. This is mostly self-defense -- much of my wife's complaining is centered on me as the villain. It's difficult to stay neutral and empathic when the evil ass she is describing is me. I haven't fully mastered being able to step outside my point of view and listen as if this is a complete stranger that she is venting about.

[waverider]

Damn. I'm doing the condescending detachment.

So for impartial detachment - I need to listen and try to see from her point of view? Validation. I need to take interest, but not be involved. I need to care what she says, without taking it to heart or necessarily agreeing with her.

Basically yes, it is about not getting to caught up in the niuts and bolts of individual issues, as that drags you into defending things and trying to explain things to someone who basically is not in a hearing mode. Thats what brings out your frustration, causing shut down.

[Cat Familiar]

Yep, add me to the list of people doing the "condescending detachment" exclusively until recently.  

I was actually proud of myself to even be able to do that, instead of blindly reacting to his words, as I had habitually done in the past.

But recently, something happened   and I was able to get outside myself as if I was seeing the whole drama from a great distance, like watching a movie. It was then that I could do the impartial detachment and see how things played out.

This time I didn't feel superior, as I had felt in the past--like "I can control my emotions, and you can't, nana, nana, boo boo!"

It was more like watching a game unfold. "Let's see what happens if I do this. OK, that didn't work. How about if I say that?" It became fun and strategic. And fulfilling when I saw progress. It was like we were on the same team, only I was speaking to someone who didn't speak my language and I had to figure out how to communicate to him in a way he would understand.

[waverider]

Condescending detachment brings about entrenchment rather than improvement. =Stalemate

[ArleighBurke]

Yep, add me to the list of people doing the "condescending detachment" exclusively until recently.  

But recently, something happened   and I was able to get outside myself as if I was seeing the whole drama from a great distance, like watching a movie. It was then that I could do the impartial detachment and see how things played out.

It was more like watching a game unfold. "Let's see what happens if I do this. OK, that didn't work. How about if I say that?" It became fun and strategic. And fulfilling when I saw progress. It was like we were on the same team, only I was speaking to someone who didn't speak my language and I had to figure out how to communicate to him in a way he would understand.

Tell me more. Is this like a "stage of development"? I have already felt the transition from my past behaviours to now - I feel very different - much more in control. But I don't have the interest in the conversation. I'm only providing token validation - but mostly I'm blowing her off. (It's the step of not making it worse - now i need to transition to making it better).

To do that, I think I need to actually care about her emotion. I can ignore the accusations, and focus on how she feels, but how do you maintain interest in this alternate reality she has? Perhaps I could pretend she's telling me about a dream she had - and I'm  just shooting the breeze talking about it?

[waverider]

Perhaps I could pretend she's telling me about a dream she had - and I'm  just shooting the breeze talking about it?

This not too far from the mark as issues in dreams are nonsense but the underlying message betrays subconscious emotions and connections that are happening in someones life. feelings of persecution, anger, jealousy etc.

[Cat Familiar]

Tell me more. Is this like a "stage of development"? I have already felt the transition from my past behaviours to now - I feel very different - much more in control. But I don't have the interest in the conversation. I'm only providing token validation - but mostly I'm blowing her off. (It's the step of not making it worse - now i need to transition to making it better).

To do that, I think I need to actually care about her emotion. I can ignore the accusations, and focus on how she feels, but how do you maintain interest in this alternate reality she has? Perhaps I could pretend she's telling me about a dream she had - and I'm  just shooting the breeze talking about it?

I guess the barrier for me to be motivated to engage in validating, using SET, etc. was that I was so incredibly pissed off about having my needs and desires trampled upon, that I just didn't care about my husband's feelings. Actually more than didn't care, I was contemptuous about how self-absorbed and selfish he was. Added to that, his seeming inability to use the "thinking" side of his brain, rather than the "reacting" side. (In training my horses, I'm very aware of trying to engage their "thinking" brain and redirecting them when they're using their "reactive" brain. I'd think, jeez, my horses can do it, why can't you?) So, there was a lot of contempt from my side, which I hid, or so I thought, rather skillfully since I have a great poker face. But contempt certainly damages relationships. I was unwilling to give up my anger due to a lifetime of dealing with BPD behavior, starting with my mother, then years of BPD/NPD abusive behavior from my first husband. So my current husband, who is really a nice guy, was paying the price of my history of irritation with the disorder itself.

I understand not caring about your wife's emotion, particularly when it seems stupid, irrational or overblown for the circumstances. But you do care about her. Otherwise you wouldn't be here.

My husband is an amateur photographer and he loves buying expensive cameras. He will talk a bit about lenses and cameras to me (fortunately not too much because he knows my attention span is very limited on this topic). So the way I can tolerate it is to think that this is very important to him and he wants to share something, so I can manage to listen and support his interest.

He does the same with me when I tell him what I think is an amusing horse anecdote.

It's really hard when your pwBPD is directing her criticism or rage at you, but I like your idea of pretending it's a dream. I've found the strategy of watching a movie works for me and if it gets too personal and intense, I can pretend that I'm watching myself, watching a movie. (Using depersonalizing in a constructive way)