Does this sound like ASPD or BPD?

[Herodias]

I have had some really strange texts with my stbx husband. He had some kind of idea that I could be friends with him and even be in his baby's life? I guess after he asked me to take him back and I wasn't overjoyed, he is taking the "friend" approach. He says he misses the lifestyle we had... .not me -mind you. One minute he is telling me he is moving to Tenn. to start a new life with the gf, then the next he says his career is here and he may not move! He is all over the place! He still says he doesn't want to marry her.  He said he may get that vasectomy after all since he doesn't want to have kids all over the place with the future women in his life!  I decided to ask him something... .I said, would you please be honest with me and tell me if you have have intense feelings or no feelings... .I said I won't judge you, but I am trying to understand you at a deeper level. He said " I feel strongly about being a good Dad"... .I said , but emotionally, do you feel or not? He said " I feel, I think". Then he said, " Why do you care if I have feelings? I know I don't understand you or people being emotional. I know it was important for me to go to a friends fathers funeral"... .Now tell me, is he really a sociopath with out emotions or does this sound like BPD? It sounds to me like he doesn't have feelings... .he only knows how to talk about the way he "thinks" not how he "feels"... .any thoughts? I really think he has moved on and doesn't want to be with me anymore except maybe as a Mother figure or something, since he is not getting that from his family. Yet, I know he would sleep with me if I agreed. I am so confused and see I am being sucked into his drama, yet I only have about  one more month being married to him. I am obsessed with figuring out what he is... .There were times when I looked at him and saw nothing behind his eyes.

[hashtag_loyal]

He seems very confused, which sounds more borderline than anti-social to me.

PwBPD aren't emotionless like sociopaths, rather they dissociate their feelings -- which is quite a bit different.

Imagine you grew up feeling extremely powerful emotions that you didn't fully understand. Wouldn't it be easier to try to feel nothing instead so you can at least think and function?

Also, pwBPD grew up in environments of emotional invalidation. He probably grew up being taught that his feelings were "bad" or "inappropriate" and that he needed to "control" them. But he can't control them, he can only dissociate them for a time, but they are still there and will ultimately catch up with him. PwBPD often seem emotionless at times, but they inevitably will get overwhelmed by powerful emotions too strong to ignore, and that is when the crazy usually happens.

[Herodias]

hashtag_loyal,  thank you... .that does make sense. I am amazed that he could say some of the things he says... .He doesn't seem to understand how the things he does or says hurts me. You are right though, between being a Marine and his Mother, it seems very possible he has been told to control his feelings... .I also have seen him turn into a toddler and have tantrums... .I always thought he was BPD, but I guess they can be co-morbid with other PD's... .I just am really having a hard time to understand him. He just seems to have emotions all over the place, yet I know he realizes he can manipulate people. Yet, he feels like the one being manipulated!

[thisworld]

See, he is cohesive only for a MOMENT (which was yesterday I think). I'm very happy that it is confirmed by his actions now. IMHO, it's not important whether he had ASPD or BPD now. Whatever the diagnosis, he isn't cohesive. Can you build your future with someone who is cohesive only for a moment (and manages to do really hurtful things when he loses it?)? I personally would prefer a schizophrenic receiving treatment for a man. You know that they may not be cohesive, they aren't crazymaking like this, and they don't go and get involved in other affairs while making you crazy with their lack of cohesiveness. Why are you being so cohesive with this person Herodias? I wonder what he understands from your actions at this stage.

From what I see, whatever the diagnoses there is a narcissistic core in this man. That's enough to make someone feel soo bad. And also, some doctors say that contrary to the general belief NPD and ASPD can meet in a person, they are just a bit more anxious and less flat than your ordinary sociopath. I don't think he has ASPD - but who knows- but I don't think it's that important. He isn't cohesive. 

[Lonely_Astro]

hashtag_loyal,  thank you... .that does make sense. I am amazed that he could say some of the things he says... .He doesn't seem to understand how the things he does or says hurts me. You are right though, between being a Marine and his Mother, it seems very possible he has been told to control his feelings... .I also have seen him turn into a toddler and have tantrums... .I always thought he was BPD, but I guess they can be co-morbid with other PD's... .I just am really having a hard time to understand him. He just seems to have emotions all over the place, yet I know he realizes he can manipulate people. Yet, he feels like the one being manipulated!

PwBPD can be all over the place with their emotions in rapid paces.  They can be happy, sad, angry, and the full gamut in a matter of hours (or even minutes).  They can't regulate emotions like we can, so they live in the moment if that makes sense.  If they are happy, they're all the way happy.  If they are excited, they're all the way excited.  If they are angry, it's all in angry.  What has always been funny to me is that everyone has PD traits.  Literally, everyone.  The difference is that 'normal' people can regulate the emotions/feelings quickly and function normally.  Sure, some of us get stuck (depression, OCD, etc) from time to time but we regulate and go on.  BPDs (and other PDs) simply don't.

Cluster B PDs can be co-morbid.  They also have overlap.  So it's very possible you see other PD traits in yours.  He may just be borderline but have other traits (NPD, ASPD, HPD).  Cluster B is complicated, to say the least.

[Lonely_Astro]

See, he is cohesive only for a MOMENT (which was yesterday I think). I'm very happy that it is confirmed by his actions now. IMHO, it's not important whether he had ASPD or BPD now. Whatever the diagnosis, he isn't cohesive. Can you build your future with someone who is cohesive only for a moment (and manages to do really hurtful things when he loses it?)? I personally would prefer a schizophrenic receiving treatment for a man. You know that they may not be cohesive, they aren't crazymaking like this, and they don't go and get involved in other affairs while making you crazy with their lack of cohesiveness. Why are you being so cohesive with this person Herodias? I wonder what he understands from your actions at this stage.

From what I see, whatever the diagnoses there is a narcissistic core in this man. That's enough to make someone feel soo bad. And also, some doctors say that contrary to the general belief NPD and ASPD can meet in a person, they are just a bit more anxious and less flat than your ordinary sociopath. I don't think he has ASPD - but who knows- but I don't think it's that important. He isn't cohesive. 

Ah, the moments of lucidity!  Those are when they are at their best (or at least mine was).  She was so self aware and would openly, honestly talk to you about her feelings.  She would stay lucid for awhile, but ultimately she would slip back into dysregulation.  That's what made today hard for me.  She seemed to be lucid.  I saw the old J that I knew and loved today, for a moment.  Then she kicked me in the jaw with news she was dating someone.  It wasn't easy to hear, but it was the finality that I needed (I guess).  She still wants to remain my friend (aka "I want you as a possible backup", which isn't going to happen.

But, you're right thisworld.  You can't base a future on someone who's only cohesive for a few moments at a time.  I liken my r/s with J to a heroin addiction mixed with nitroglycerin.  I knew (and know) it was bad for me, I just chose not to care.  I just wanted that one more hit from her, even though I knew it was going to blow up at any time.  That's the reality of it.  I am hurting right now because she has moved on, but one day, I will see that I actually did dodge a bullet with just a few scrapes.

[thisworld]

Herodias,

What's his tone of voice when he is saying these? Does he sound excited? Does he say something and then stop and change it after testing you? What do you when he is saying these? Is this a long monologue or does your input alter his reactions? What does your gut say to you when he speaks?

Lonely_Astro,

I too have been pained by moments of lucidity - with a schizophrenic friend of mine. With the BPDex, unfortunately, these always coincided with times when he wanted something from me or was trying to repair something he damaged in us.

[hashtag_loyal]

If they are happy, they're all the way happy.  If they are excited, they're all the way excited.  If they are angry, it's all in angry.

This is quite correct. PwBPD feel emotion only in extremes, particularly negative ones. Instead of sadness, they feel despair. Instead of anger, they feel rage, and instead of uncertainty and anxiety they feel deep, intolerable fear. Top that all off with limited impulse control, and you have the recipe for interpersonal disaster.

I just am really having a hard time to understand him.

Well, you are probably an emotionally fully-developed adult, then.  Honestly, understanding pwBPD is easy... .Provided you can relate to all the extreme emotions, shame, self-loathing and twisted ways of relating to the world around them. Piece of cake, right? 

Seriously, though, I understand you are confused and looking for answers, but the more you learn about BPD, the sadder you may get. I would rather think of happier things, such as how much better life can be with an emotionally stable partner who who will actually treat you with kindness, love and respect.

[Herodias]

If he is drinking he gets very excited, even has an evil kind of laugh with some of it. When he is sober he tends to listen to my answers. He doesn't say much and wants me to talk. This morning it was a bunch of texts. Saying "I'm done unless you can be nice to me" like he is trying to control my behavior. But then also saying, " you can always call me anytime" which I'm thinking, really- while you're with your pregnant gf? Maybe triangulation? Not sure why though... ,

[Herodias]

Hashtag, I wish I could find a "normal" person to have a r/s with... , he told me, I'm sure you have had opportunities but are choosing not to move on! I said normal people don't date married people... , that's when he got mad again since he and the gf were both married! I'm not going to grab the first one to like me like he did!

[thisworld]

Dear Herodias,

This man has so many layers and some of them may be more needy, attention seeking, anxious than you imagine. I wouldn't try to rescue him though, because, at the same time, some layers may be more cruel, manipulative, selfish, narcissistic, unempathetic than you can ever imagine. Sometimes, these two may exist in the very same moment or just switch. The truth is you will never completely know and neither does he, actually. Only, you care about it more than he does. They are prone to using everyone (they sometimes do not even see it as using everyone, they simply don't have that criterion) to the best of their powers. Sometimes they give us signals that they are sad for who they are. And sometimes, in therapy, they discover that they actually don't care!

Do you think you would like to invest in something like this? Even a therapist would hesitate to come up with a quick diagnosis for this guy, he has an alcohol problem. My T would probably call him a narc or BPD with very strong narc. traits. My former T would not treat him without some sober time under his belt. Probably both would advise me to get out. My T says, the diagnosis isn't important for you, how you feel around him is important. How do you feel around this guy? What you see is what you get, do you enjoy what you are getting from him?

IMHO, you may be unknowingly contributing to his incohesive talk and logic. Simply because you are an ongoing ear to this irrational and very selfish thing. There is a line of approach that says that we adjust to the situation with disordered people and start responding to their irrational, illogical stuff as if it were logical - you are speaking to him, you are listening to him, you are discussing with him as if he were cohesive. You are treating his irrationality as if it were something rational. And he is just carrying on! And why not, has someone to listen to this! He has someone to respond to this as if it was something to be taken seriously. So many people would say what the hell, can you hear yourself  and hang up. Of course, he cannot get away from you. Does it mean he wants you? I don't know, you know what he has done better than any of us. To me, they just want us like an object. A comfortable armchair?

Therapists sometimes lend a listening ear to schizophrenics and their "world salad", they respond with a word salad to establish trust, but you know, you can never have an intimate relationship with someone with a Cluster B personality disorder on this ground. They will most probably do everything in their power to break and bend it. My ex had a number of emotional affairs and triangulations. When held accountable for one of these, he said the following in one breath: "There has never been anything sexual between me and her, she is like a sister to me, I got to meet her Dad and took away her virginity." This is irrational. If I had tried to explain to him the irrationality of this, I would have been more irrational than him because rationality cannot reason with irrationality. Also, there is this inner mechanism in a lot of Cluster B people that they have honed so well. These irrational things are control tactics - abusers use this a lot- because they confuse the listener, and a confused person is a weakened person. When you are weakened, things start going the way they want it.   

[Herodias]

this world, thank you... .that makes allot of sense. You are right, I am trying to make sense of the non sense and I have been letting him think he's ok with his drama and lying. I always try to be sympathetic because he is mentally ill. But I need to drop it and get out of the triangle. What does "IMHO" mean? I am seeing it allot and not sure what that means... .

[thisworld]

It means in my humble opinion and IMHO we have a lot to learn from women who don't treat them the way we do. We are these confident, strong women who have a lot to offer the world and take it from it. Only, at the moment, we have been associating too much with men who are treating us like their mothers. We need to reclaim our womanhood. Being a single, confident woman is much better for us than being with these men who make us feel weak, not enough whatnot. I went through this personally and no, it's not that we are not good enough. They are not good enough to see us in our complete self. Has he gone away and built a relationship with a young woman? OK. You can understand the illness, wish him well if you want to, but you don't have to accept this "symptom" and be exposed to this all the time. OK, they have a little child in them, yeah? We have a little child in us as well. And that child gets hurt and hurt and hurt. (I was becoming afraid of every other woman on the planet, I started comparing my body to others all the time, and that is not healthy for me as a woman.) Enough of this really. This is my humble opinion.

[Herodias]

Thank you This world, for explaining. Yes, we are all children inside that are hurting... .you are right. Yes, mine ran off with a younger woman, but she is really witchy looking and I am dead serious! Everyone has said that. She has no self confidence at all... .I am not jealous of her in the least. She is uneducated and immature. I think he is correct in saying they are at the same level. Yes, I have my own insecurities and have done allot if work at figuring out what they are and why. I do want to be one of those women that say- no- that is unacceptable! His own Mother says that! I always thought she was cold... .although her own friends told me she was that way and I felt sorry for him that she is not more loving. I also can see the reason she is like that with all of his drama and lies. It's tough. I know I am afraid that the older I get, I will not meet someone and I really do want to be in a relationship and not alone. I am realizing that I would rather be alone than be with him. I am also realizing that the thought of him touching me is repulsive! Sometimes I feel like he is my child I never had... .kinda weird. Meaning, he takes up my time. I am a bit of a drama queen and I do need to work on this as well. This drama feels too much like "Jerry Springer" and I no longer feel comfortable with the behaviors. He has decided that I am scary and trying to hurt him, that we should no longer be in contact. I told him I agree... .that's what  I was trying to tell him. He and I do not live the same lifestyle any more and I do not wish to be in contact with him. We will see if he abides by it or not. It didn't take long for either of us to do one more email. Someone gave me a Dear Abby article on mistresses and trapping married men. I sent it to him. I said, "I am out!" He said, "wow, you were not kidding about this... .but I still feel you are trying to hurt me"... .always the victim! I was trying to help him see he needs to be careful. I feel like it goes in one ear and out the other.

[thisworld]

I think if I married "mine" and spent some more time with him, this is exactly how I would end up. "Mine" comes from a good family, has had social advantage in a society shaped with class and has managed to screw a good career due to his addictions. I'm his first relationship of "equals" as he puts it. He dates "down" the way he puts it. However, he finds something in those women - ego boost, feels superior or whatever. I think, on the other hand, we have some kind of strength due to some social factors and they are scared of it. But they cheat on us with them:)) Basically, they divide and conquer! 

It's strange. Now that he is gone, I don't feel jealous about these women. But I think this is a double-edged sword. I'm very happy with who I am in comparison to some women - not because of class but because they are as hypocritical as "mine" and they'll do things to him that I would never be able to do. But at the same time, look at whom I've lost him to:)) Realistically, I think, if that level of a relationship is satisfying him - everyone talking behind everyone's back and just "managing" and "playing" each other without actually relating- that he has nothing to do with me. He relates to people with a really low level of emotional maturity and if that satisfies him, it's obvious that he cannot satisfy me. A bit painful, but bearable.

However, if I remain in a relationship, a different kind of insecurity sets in. It's one thing to lick your wounds from afar, it's completely another to start fearing that anybody - any sales person, anyone on the internet, any person we come across, anyone anyone anyone* can be a rival. I don't want to spend my life with that insecurity and once these behaviours start, it's very hard for our partners to save a relationship with some emotional maturity. I think they know it too, so they just continue doing it. We are too much effort for them. Well... . 

[Herodias]

Yes, I understand completely. My husbands family is very prominent in their town. He is a complete embarrassment. They don't even want him around. I know that is hard for him, but he doesn't listen or change. I think somehow he thinks because his sister just had a baby, maybe him doing so will help him get attention. Unfortunately for him, they don't look at him the same... .He thinks she is on the same level for him because she works at the same place as him. Ridiculous... .