Well, that backfired...

[Ceruleanblue]

BPDh has been extremely depressed. This seems to happen every year, and this year he's facing possible job loss(yes, he's partially to blame for this), and as usual, his kids are still estranged.

My sister in law has stated that BPDh's daughter keeps mentioning that he never reaches out to her, even though she point blank told BPDh to "not contact her, and to leave her alone". She's been civil the few family functions we've seen her at. I thought maybe because she's complaining to sister in law about BPDh not reaching out, that maybe she was willing to reconcile.

I suggested to BPDh that he could ask all his girls over for dinner for Christmas. I told him it was up to him, and that if they rejected him, if he'd feel worse, maybe he just shouldn't ask them. I left it up to him. Well, he got shot down by the first daughter, who again gave the excuse of "she's just not ready to be around Ceruleanblue yet", and as always BPDh said ZERO in defense of me. He'll tell me it's crap, and that his girls need to stop this nonsense, but he won't tell them that, nor will he tell them his true feelings. He fears them.

Well, the second daughter returned his call, and she was just nasty. Arrogant, mean, and just not nice. She acted like he was crazy to call her, and when he invited her to dinner, she was rude, and kept interrupting him, and told him again, to stop contacting her basically. So much for her complaints to sister in law about BPDh not "reaching out".

I think I have in figured out. This one daughter acts civil at family functions, in order to play victim later with family members. She doesn't tell them that she's told BPDh not to contact her, but she then complains that he doesn't. I feel like I'm not only dealing with BPDh's issues, but his kids all have BPD traits as well.

He felt just awful after he got off the phone with her. I felt bad because I'd really thought maybe she was willing to get past things(although I have zero idea WHY these girls are mad). I feel like even though I was hoping good would come of this, that BPDh ended up hurt. He/we decided to not even bother asking the oldest, adopted daughter, as she's usually the worst of the lot.

How do I be supportive of him at this time?

[Jessica84]

So sad. My BPDbf's kids also treat him badly. While at times I think they are the world's worst sons, I also know that they have endured a lifetime of dysregulations from him. So I feel for them, too. The best we can do is comfort and validate. "I'm sorry it didn't work out with your daughters. I know it hurts. I'm here for you."

[Notwendy]

Dysfunctional people often grow up in dysfunctional families. The pattern is intergenerational.

I think you are correct about the one daughter telling people your H doesn't contact her and also the daughters blaming you for their relationship with their dad. It sounds even typical if you think about it, and the pattern in your H of blaming others for their own actions and feelings. In this context, it would be a surprise if she did own her own part of this.

Did you jump into this as a rescuer to try to patch things up? Maybe, or maybe you just extended family hospitality. That is something for you to think about, because if you invited her with any expectation, that may have been a rescuer move.

You can invite whoever you want for Christmas, but they also have the choice to accept or not. It is less emotional drama to accept their choice and not to make any meaning out of it.

The issues between your H and his grown daughters were there long before you and they are likely to prevail unless these members themselves wish to change it. I think you did the gracious thing to extend the invitation.  It is Christmas, and they have the choice to try to at least be together as a family or not. This may feel hurtful to your H, but you can't fix this. You can have a nice holiday together though.

[Ceruleanblue]

No, my rescuing days are over. I used to think this would blow over, and if I just waited it out, and was kind, they'd come to see I wasn't a threat. That's likely never going to happen. They want total control back of BPDh, and they all had a super, super enmeshed relationship. He treated his daughters more as "mini wives", and his ex(their own mother) was even jealous of their relationship. BPDh put all his energies and most attention on his kids, and I think this gave them a huge sense of power, and they viewed BPDh as a friend, and less as Dad.

I left the decision to invite them totally up to BPDh, and I of course knew they'd likely shoot him down, but I thought there was a slight chance this one daughter might come. Now, I see that she is just wanting sympathy from people, and to keep things stirred up. I feel like at least BPDh and I did the right thing to ask, and their refusal in on them. Their bad behaviors, and grudge holding and anger, and inability to move on, is their cross to bear, not mine or BPDh's.

He wasn't a perfect parent, but he sure was compared to his ex, according to all his kids. When BPDh and I first met, they spent months telling me how awful she was, until I finally got sick of hearing it. I finally told them they needed to forgive her, but have boundaries. There is no such thing as a perfect parent. As soon as they forgave her, they got sucked back in, and the hatred of me started. They planted BPDh firmly in the middle, and expected him to choose them. When he didn't, they withdrew. He did leave me, and he ran back to their open arms, and they were all one big, happy, dysfunctional family again. When we reconciled, they withdrew again.

They've offered him no explanation of why they refuse to forgive(you know, things I didn't even do, basically imagined things, or outright lies), and why they withhold BPDh's grandkids from him now. He has one grandson who is about 6 months old, and he's only seen him once or twice.

This is all just so hard on BPDh, and now he's got the job issue, and his views of our marriage are also always changing(from good to bad), and I think that is due to his wanting his girls back. He knows if he leaves me, he gets them back, and that pull is strong.

I am just trying to be validating, and show him that healthy families don't act this way. By example, really. I'm just so angry at his two daughters now. One of them has been promising to go out to dinner for over six months, and she finally agreed to do dinner on January 9th, but she'll probably cancel. Like all the other times. Plus, I'm TERRIFIED to go out with her, because BPDh won't defend me if she goes off on me again, and she's clearly still angry, as she still refuses to come for Christmas dinner. She outright told him that. I feel dinner with her and her husband, will just be me ending up hurt again, and BPDh will again not defend me, which makes me resent him. Plus, if she doesn't start yelling(yes, she'd done this in the past for NO reason), she'll say little snarky, rude things that BPDh either doesn't notice, or chooses to ignore. I've had a gullet full of that.  I CAN defend myself, but he would be so angry if I said anything back during one of her rants.

Do you think I should go to this dinner? I was more than ready to do so, but in light of her recent admission, I'm thinking it would be a very, very bad idea. I need to look out for myself in all this, because I've been the one taking bullets so far, and I'm not willing to keep doing that for a bunch of angry, dysfunctional people.

Go, or nicely tell BPDh that I don't think going is a good idea, as long as during the same conversation she shares that she's still upset at me? I've been hurt enough by all this, and I want things to move forward, but she clearly isn't there yet. I'm just afraid BPDh will then blame ME for backing out, and not trusting him for having my back(which he's never once done)... .

[MaybeSo]

This is all just so hard on BPDh, and now he's got the job issue, and his views of our marriage are also always changing(from good to bad), and I think that is due to his wanting his girls back. He knows if he leaves me, he gets them back, and that pull is strong.

-----_______________

I think you need to pull way back and view this from a very non personal, wide lens, low drama perspective.

this is a family embroiled in victim roles, drama, multi generAtional role reversals, codependent organization, etc. Everything is a huge big deal!

This would be happening in some form no matter what. no matter whom your husband re married. no matter what the hurt feelings or crises du jour.

you can't fix or rescue these folks. you can only take care of yourself. if a daughter goes off on you... .I'd just wish them well and politely excuse myself from the table, maybe politely mention I have more productive things to do, and wish them well with the rest of their dinner. If you feel "terrified" of their drama plays ... .they know they gotcha.

Don't go if you know their potential drama plays will affect you. if you can stay unaffected and politely bored... .ya, here's where I exit the crazy train... .but enjoy, see ya... .then go.

whether you go or not... .this is the wAy this family relates.

it is what it is.

Your husband needs to be able to feel hurt and deal with it. don't add to the drama by acting as if something horribly dramatic is happening to him. All the high drama of who is more offended, more hurt, more this and that. High drama.

"eh... .you know how your girls cAn be. they will come around. let's plan something fun for us instead. "

And move along... .

[Ceruleanblue]

I agree. We are pretty much planning a nice Christmas, even if it's not the ideal one BPDh would like.

I'm undecided about going to the dinner next month because I'm not sure I'm up to just walking away. Last time his daughter went crazy on me, that's exactly what I did. I left MY own home, and ended up walking around until his daughter left. I was lucky it was summer time. I don't know if I'm in a place to do that this time. I guess I'm more indignant now, and have fully realized that I didn't create, nor deserve this chaos and hatred towards me. I certainly don't want to feed that fire though, so maybe not going IS the best option. It would be possible for me to act slightly bored and detached during the dinner, but I feel the first time she throws a barb my way, I'll be sitting and simmering the rest of dinner. I just don't want to feel that way anymore. These girls are just so extremely toxic, that I just feel down after being around them. I don't need that negative energy in my life, or fearing to speak for fear they'll twist what I say.

Of course BPDh will then say I'm not willing to give her a chance, or that I'm not wanting to "work on things", which is totally not true. I do want to move on, forget the past, and just get along. It's just clear to me, that she's not in that place, as she's even said as much. I'll go, play nice, and move forward when they stop saying they "aren't ready", or that I'm on a trial basis. Screw that crap. I do not need that drama, you are right! I've really decided that these girls aren't important enough to ME, to truly upset me anymore. I've forgiven, and moved on, and sometimes I even feel sorry for them. Just not enough to keep letting them have cracks at me. I'm not that sympathetic 

I think BPDh is finally seeing the dysfunction, even though he was pretty mired in it. It's pretty hard to justify outright hostility, for just inviting someone over for dinner. He was blindsided by his daughter's ugly response, and he didn't make the usual excuses for her. I'm glad that he's perhaps seeing that that isn't a "normal" or healthy response.

BPDh goes tomorrow to his psychiatrist to talk to him about his depression. He'd wanted me to go along, but has since changed his mind. That probably doesn't bode well. Now he's saying things like his meds make him not able to think well, and he has "bad ideas". I didn't take it he meant he wanted to hurt me or anyone, but more like he does things, and they have a bad outcome, but he couldn't give me any examples.

I'm going to do everything I can do to make sure this is a better holiday than we've had in the past.

[Notwendy]

I'm going to do everything I can do to make sure this is a better holiday than we've had in the past.

Let's rephrase this:

I'm going to do everything I can do to make sure I have a  better holiday than we've had in the past.

I say this because you just can't predict. I recall a family get together for dad, where we did most of it- food, clean up ( we kids were adults) and my mother had a huge dysregulation. Also, one holiday we had plans so I did something for us the day before and my H was angry that I didn't do something on that day. Many times, I have prepared a holiday event only to hear that I didn't do this or I didn't do that.

I have a set of recipes that I love, the kids love, my H loves. I work my tail off cooking them, but I also enjoy them and make enough so that I get a break from cooking as they like the leftovers. It is a lot of work. Even if things didn't work out, I enjoy it. I also have another friend, a mom who has also been busy cooking ,and if the weather is ok- we take the time to go for a walk- just us- a sanity break for the moms!

It is your holiday too. What can you do to make it the best for you?

[Fian]

If the issue with the kids is you, why not suggest that they go on a dinner by themselves where you are not present?  Husband gets time with his kids, you don't have to endure the attacks.  It sounds like a win/win.

[Ceruleanblue]

We've actually been doing that for four years, where BPDh will go with them because they don't want me around. The issue with that is that 1) I feel bad because they refuse to be around me 2) BPDh feels bad about that 3) It "allows" the adult kids to control/have too much say. I think it's like telling them it's okay to be controlling and hate someone for no good reason. The poster who said if this wasn't me, they'd be doing it with someone/something else, was right. I do know that.

We played along, letting them exclude me, and it's only made things worse. We also attended a therapy session with one of the daughters, and it was AWFUL, I should have walked out. The therapist should have called a halt to the session, which was basically a roast of ME. That same therapist later told me that BPDh's daughter was awful in the session, so why didn't she call a halt? It was all this girl talking and making demands, and belittling me. She's arrogant, has a holier than though attitude, and she's extremely angry and militant. She used to be a cutter, and she clearly still has mental issues. It's just sad, but I'm done being on the receiving end. It's this daughter who we are to have dinner with on the 9th. Shudders.

Our MC basically said that BPDh's have an "all or nothing" mentality, and my T also said that BPDh needs to stand up for our marriage, and stop letting these adults exclude me.

It's just such an ugly situation, and I wish we could just have peace. I'm willing, BPDh is more than willing, but these angry "adults" are not. I think at this point, we need to focus on our marriage because at this point, two of the three girls want nothing to do with us anyway. We've never had these extreme issues with BPDh's son.

I think we are going to start MC again, so maybe this can be addressed there.

[MaybeSo]

1) I feel bad because they refuse to be around me

What is your objection to feeling bad? Most of the time, when we have a boundary, at times, we will feel bad.  With radical acceptance, you accept that there are complex reasons for the way things 'are' and you accept those realities.  Feeling "BAD" about it can be something you cope with and then move on from.  I don't think you can have a life without sometimes feeling pretty bad.   I don't think you can have a life with a complex family you are describing without LOTS of opportunities to feel bad at times.  All feelings come and go. 

2) BPDh feels bad about that.

See above. Feel it and move on.  An entire profession called psychotherapy was developed to help people get over the idea that all negative feelings must be avoided or denied.  Most addictions and family dysfunction is about avoiding "feeling bad" sometimes.  Feel it and move on.  Much healthier. 

  3) It "allows" the adult kids to control/have too much say.

You don't have the power to control or allow or not allow these people to do anything, anyway.   You are slipping into the well worn realm of fantasy that you have some control over other people or that you should have some control over other people, and that is the priority.  No it isn't.  Your own self care is the priority.  You only have control over you.

If being around them feels toxic to you, then you can choose to limit your exposure.  You are then taking control of your own life. Don't even get into a speculation about what it does or doesn't mean for them or how it does or doesnt' impact them... .they are not your concern.  You have no control over them.

I think it's like telling them it's okay to be controlling and hate someone for no good reason.

IBID  This is not your business.  Pay attention to you.  Not them.

[formflier]

 Perhaps you and hubby have a chance to get on same page and demonstrate some good behavior.  Similar to how MaybSo encouraged you to pay attention to yourself.  Extend that thought to you as a couple.    I often give advice that for people trying to woo a pwBPD back to them, they should plan an activity (such as going for coffee) and then invite the other person.  If the other person declines, the inviter should go anyway and have a great time.  Don't let a pwBPD's change of plans affect your happiness.  Same thing.  Figure out a way as a couple to plan and hold events and have a great time.  Don't focus on who does or doesn't show up.  Invite them and then go on and have a good time.  Once your "happiness" doesn't depend on whether or not the kids behave or not, life should get a lot simpler.      

FF  

[Ceruleanblue]

Yeah, that's totally what we planned to do, but now as of tonight more drama came by way of his son. I've gotten along with his son the entire time, and it's super hurtful that the only kid of BPDh is now also threatening to carve me out of his life. For my political views, no less. His son has convinced himself that I'm a Trump supporter, and he told his Dad tonight that due to this "he doesn't want Ceruleanblue in his life", and some other thing about negativity because I think he thinks anyone who says anything in Trump's defense is "negative".

All this stemming from lunch with his son two weeks ago. Lunch where his son sais he could totally kill Trump and it would be worth doing the time. Crazy! BPDh didn't blink an eye at that, but I was dumbfounded, but it's his kid, so whatever. But now that he's threatening to carve me out, that means I'll have to leave my own house on Christmas, according to BPDh, as we'd invited his son over.

Oh, and BPDh also told me I could "Get the F out". He didn't say a word in my defense, during this conversation with his son, he just got a shocked, baffled look on his face, and kept pleading with his son saying that I don't support Trump. What if I DID?

This family is nuts. I've been kind, I've been longsuffering, but their behaviors and judgy-ness is just ridiculous. I can't even have my own political views now, or this kid will cut me off too? And BPDh's threats are getting way old. I deserve to have to security and not feel like I'm constantly going to be kicked out. I'm sick to boot, with a terrible cold, so this all isn't coming at a good time.

[formflier]

  Why can't you have your own political views?  You can support trump.  His son can think of you, judge you however he wants, and life goes on.  Correct?  The "judgments" only matter when you "accept them, correct?

[Ceruleanblue]

It's actually funny because I did like some of Trump's ideas, but I think he's gone way off the deep end. That's pretty much what I said at lunch with BPDh's son, and he interprets that to mean I'm a Trump supporter. I seriously think BPDh and all of his kids interpret things as negatively as possible, just so they can create the drama they all thrive on so much. I think it makes them feel "better than" when they cut people out of their lives, and they act as if this makes them superior and they do it in the name of "being healthy". It's so backwards, it's sick. I've seen them all do it now.

If I'd cut them out of my life as soon as I knew they were emotionally unstable, and had abusive behaviors, I'd have cut them off years ago. I just don't feel that is Christian, or an effective way to deal with issues.

Of course I CAN have my own political views, but doing so means BPDh's son will cut me off, thereby making BPDh very angry at me. He couldn't tell his son enough times that I'm not a Trump supporter. While that's actually true, it galls me that he felt the need to justify who or what I support. His son is all about equality, and defending Muslims, gays, not being racist, but how is what he's doing any different? It's not, but in his muddled, likely BPD brain, with his black and white thinking, it's not. This was the kid I came across BPD literature in his room, after all. He'd been seeing a psychiatrist at the time. These traits run really strong in this family.

I guess I care about step son's judgements because he's using it as an excuse to do what his sisters have done, "cut me off". He was the last holdout, and I'm sure their knife weilding Mom is a driving force, as are his sisters. BPDh will use this against me too, because whatever his kids do is "right", and I'm always "wrong". It's just so out there, for me to think in this day and age, that a 21 year old snot nose brat has the right to tell ME, or his Dad, that I'm a bad person, due to his misconceived views.

How do I best deal with this? I don't feel like having his son over for Christmas now. I'm highly hurt and offended that he'd threaten to cut me out of his life, after we've always had a good relationship. Plus, this son knows how hurt I've been over his sisters doing just that to me, and how hard I've striven to make peace with them, all to no avail.

I don't want to see him now at Christmas, but I know BPDh will be angry at me if I don't want  his son over. I'm sick of the drama, and I'm hurt. I'm sick right now with a horrible cough and cold to boot. Last night, BPDh just kept being angry at me, after his "get the F out" threat, because he said I was "telling him what he could and couldn't do with his SON". I'm so sick of hearing that crap. Yeah, what I said came out wrong at first, but I very carefully, and repeatedly clarified WHAT I meant, and what I felt. He never changes his mind, or allows you to apologize, or explain, and he ended my explanation with saying he doesn't care how I feel. I hadn't heard that in a while, but he's previously said it to me for three years. He'd outright tell me: "I don't care about your feelings, and keep your G*d D*amn opinions to yourself". He knows I don't like being sworn at when he's mad, so this is a double jab.

I had all these holiday plans, had the attitude of "I'm not going to let anything they throw at me get to me", but I really didn't see this coming. I've been on good terms with his son through nearly five years of his sisters' and Mom's crap towards me. I don't want to have to leave my home, where my son was coming to spend Christmas(you know, MY son, that BPDh threw out), and I just once wanted to have a good holiday. EVERY holiday has been ruined by BPDh's blue mood, or drama his kids do before the holiday. Not once have his girls ever accepted an invitation from us to come celebrate Christmas with us. I'm a really good person, but I'm treated like a leper by these people. BPDh's kids act like they are better than me, like they are racially and morally superior, because they are Mexican, and I am white. BPDh's FOO doesn't understand what's wrong with BPDh or why his kids act this way. They've all tried to get the kids to stop being hostile towards me and their Dad.

I'm sick of the dysfunctional, mean, hostile, abusive lot of them today, and I'm just heart sore, and hurting.

How do I manage to not have another horrendous holiday, when at this point, I don't see how I can even spend it with my BPDh because he'll choose to be with HIS SON. I'm never any sort of priority, ever. If his son is upset with me, he'll back his son. If I don't want to be around his son, because I know there'll be drama, he'll choose his son. Why does it always come to this? Why do these kids make it a "her or me" choice all the time? Because they know BPDh will choose them, and I'll be hurt?

I want to have a good Christmas with my two kids, but I'll honestly be hurt if I can't spend my day with BPDh. I just don't see a good answer to this.

[MaybeSo]

Gawd.  So much drama-trauma in this family.  I had one side of the family that did this kind of stuff all the time, too.  

You aren't going to change them.

This is the staying board.  So, you still have to practice radical acceptance with what is and be skilled in your self-care and in your responses.

With folks that have this style of drama trauma relating, I think the hard thing to do is to not over-react to their over-reactions.  

But it's the best thing you can do.  

NOT over-reacting to their OVER-REACTIONS is key.

When you take this stuff as hugely alarming and start reacting to it... .that's when you are joining in on the family mass hysteria.

I try to imagine what a sane, balanced, response would be to all these drama antics... .from a person who values themselves and values staying out of drama, who wants to maintain decent relations nonetheless.

It would probably be something like:

First and foremost stay calm.  Employ only measured responses that neither attacks them or defends your position... .No JADING.

"Gosh I'm sorry your son (or whomever you are talking to)  has gotten that impression and feels that strongly about it.  I'm really surprised!  That's too bad, I have really enjoyed my relationship with your son, and my hope is that we continue to have a good relationship."

And then stop.  :)rop it.  No contingency plans, no drama about how his son's statement may or may not affect plans for the holiday.  Stay grounded.   If it's being pushed that plans have to change b/c of this misperction... .I'd validate that this is his choice but reiterate the above.

Just continue with  YOUR plans as usual, whatever the holiday plans, move along per the norm.  :)on't try to fix it, don't JADE. Don't take OFFENSE, don't start JADING.  :)on't ask your H to fix it for you or take sides. This family lives on this stuff.  Everyone is offended and JADING and ATTACKING  all the time.    

Just stay even keel.  You can ask clarifying questions... .but when what is said is not accurate or over the top just stay calm and curious... ."hmmm, wow, I am just so surprised he feels that way."  (NO JADING!)  

CB, I'm not sure if this feedback came through your husband only, or if his son addressed you directly about his misperception.  

But, it's always best to talk directly to the source and keep calm and NO jading when you do that.

In healthy families, if a third party communicates displeasure on behalf of someone else, a healthy person usually takes the reins and addresses the problem directly with the person who has the problem.  If done skillfully without a lot of defensiveness or JADING this stuff can blow over.

This is a family full of drama junkies.  They are using drama the way drug addicts use drugs.  

Don't play into it.  

[Ceruleanblue]

BPDh and I were sitting in bed on our computers, when his son called, so I overheard it all. It was near the end of the conversation, and BPDh got that "deer in headlights" look, because he knew I could hear, and he knew how ridiculous his son's reason was. It didn't stop him from trying to placate his son though.

You are right, that a healthier person would have dealt with it differently. BPDh should have calmly stated something to the effect of "I'm shocked you'd want to do that stepson, as you've always had a good relationship with Ceruleanblue. Her political veiwpoints are her own, and I certainly don't think that's a good reason to write off a relationship". Then move on to another topics. That would have more than dealt with the issue.

But you are right, they all feed off this crap, and BPDh has trouble seeing it. He did think his son wanting to cut me off for such a reason was silly, but he's also very used to dealing with their antics, and trying not to make waves. He even uses terms like "I don't want to rock the boat" or "I don't want to set her off" in regards to his daughters. Sad.

Maybe I will just stay and do the Christmas I had planned. I just hope his son doesn't bring up politics again! I think everyone is right, and they thrive on drama. I've been saying that for years, that they feed off it, but it helps to hear someone else say it.

I guess I just have to rise above it, and try not to get sucked in. When I do, they win, or it meets some sick need they have? My Grandma always had a saying, and it was "They can stay mad, until they get glad", and I think I'm going to repeat that a lot in the coming days.