High notch count - double standard?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Exactly!

[thisworld]

Exactly!

[HurtinNW]

Great idea to shift the focus back to ourselves and our healing!

For me this issue is triggering because I am the one with a broader sexual history than my BPD boyfriend. And he used that fact to shame me. When we got into conflict it was a way for him to insult and hurt me.

I think there are a lot of ways a BPD can paint someone black. They will use any tool in their arsenal. For my boyfriend, my sexuality was at first idolized. When we met he talked about how happy he was to have met someone who is sexually comfortable, confident, etc. It was part of the pedestal. Then when he began devaluing me he used the very same fact to paint me black. He would rage and mock me for having had many lovers.

I have accountability for my own reactions, many of which were not pretty. I did not see his own deep shame. His own history was having a narcissistic father and a martyr mother whom I believe engaged in emotional incest with him (not real incest, but she made him a mommy's boy while reviling her husband's sexuality to him; this really messed him up). I didn't take this as seriously as I should have. Relationships are supposed to be about respect. I did not respect his vulnerability and shame as much as I should have. That he shamed me does not remove my accountability. 

The discovery I made about myself is it is important for me to have a partner that respects my sexual history, and doesn't use it against me.

[eeks]

The question:

How can we turn the focus more on ourselves so that these discussions offer some benefit to us in our detachment, and ultimately self-awareness.

I suppose I could say more about the "number of sexual partners" issue, but I think, overall, this has to be judged, like all other things we observe someone saying and doing, according to our intuition, including our emotions. 

Some who come from a background of childhood trauma and abuse may have had their intuition "scrambled", so that they don't perceive it.  Or, it's a bit more complex than that, they could be hypervigilant for certain cues, and yet they keep making unhealthy relationship choices because it feels so... ."familiar".

I, however, am one who perceives things but don't always act on them.  I sometimes rationalize out of it ("well that's odd, but seems harmless", or, if it happens early on in a relationship/friendship, I notice it and my "antennae perk up", but I don't know what to do with the information because I don't feel I have a context for it yet. 

For instance, the first time socializing with uBPD former friend after the event we met at, we went for lunch.  She was very particular about some aspects of her order (had seen a nutritionist, suspected gluten issues, believed in the connection between food and mood, etc.)  It wasn't what she asked for, but how she asked for it... .her word choices, tone of voice, that I thought "stuck out", that's the best way I can say my intuitive noticings.  Remember on Sesame Street "One of these things is not like the other"?  Kind of like that... .

And I think it makes sense to judge our partners' sexual/relationship histories the same way... .how do they talk about their ex?  Who do they blame (if anybody) for the problems?  Tone of voice, word choices, do they have residual emotions?  When they talk about their sexual history, what is their attitude about it? 

Not to mention our own sexual histories.  If there are parts of it you are not proud of, how do you understand your feelings and needs at the time, and what have you/could you learn from it?  How do you feel in response to your partner's response to your sexual history?  Do they judge you (or themselves) on the basis of it?

Which made me think of trust.  What makes you trust/mistrust someone?  Is your "trust antenna" calibrated accurately?  And are you trustworthy yourself... .are you honest with yourself and others?

[Newton]

I found the comment/s in question very disturbing... .and reported them.  

Unfortunately current social language and ethos supports and reinforces this point of view... .males with multiple partners are "studs" (positive connotation)... .women who behave in a similar manner ... ."slu#s, sl#gs, who#es"... .

I'm struggling to think of a negative label applied to guys who 'sleep around'   ... ."players" perhaps?... .hmm rather tame and implies control... .in a jovial way.  

[Skip]

I'm struggling to think of a negative label applied to guys who 'sleep around'... ."players" perhaps?... .hmm rather tame and implies control... .in a jovial way.

------------ preditor womaniser philanderer

------------ sleezeball ladiesman penishead

------------ cocksman player Tiger Woods

Excuse me, but why is a woman (disordered or not) with a high notch count is bad news by default when I see that a male on this forum states how many hundreds of women he has slept with and interprets that as a sign of his self-confidence? Why isn't it a red flag then? There seem to be at least two double standards there.

I agree that in society, at a superficial level, a "Jame Bond female slayer" is a seen as a man amongst men and a women in a similar role (Madonna) would be seen as broken at some level. This imagery stands when there is no victim.

When we see the victim, take it out of the "fantasy", it often changes. We have many men viewed as pathetic philanders, Bill Cosby, Tiger Woods, Bill Clinton, Koby Bryant, Jesse James, Jim Bakker, Magic Johnson.

When you dial it down to real life social circles, it really varies. A group of bricklayers may have one standard. A group of Lutheran' men another. Regardless, when the philandering blows things up, the men are not seen favorably.

I think what stands out on this board from time to time is that there are some men who extol the virtues of BPD women because BPD women try to win the approval with sex - BPD women are more likely to have a sex addiction or be willing to enable another person (one of us) who has a sex addiction.

I say this as I don't think the issue is one of social imagery (society views are what they are), but more one of sexual addictions (something that matters here). Some people equate their value and worth with sex - some confuse love with sex - and so they seek an excessive number lot of sex partners or over-value sex in the relationship.

How many times do we read here, "she was a train-wreck, but I miss the great sex, I'm going to call her". Look at the price some have paid for "the sex".

As we look in the mirror, we should ask, "where are we" (it differs for each of us) in this regard?  Healthy? Emotionally mature? Have past patterns to embrace or to question?

[fromheeltoheal]

I think what stands out on this board from time to time is that there are some men who extol the virtues of BPD women because BPD women try to win the approval with sex - BPD women are more likely to have a sex addiction or be willing to enable another person (one of us) who has a sex addiction.

I say this as I don't think the issue is one of social imagery (society views are what they are), but more one of sexual addictions (something that matters here). Some people equate their value and worth with sex - some confuse love with sex - and so they seek an excessive number lot of sex partners or over-value sex in the relationship.

How many times do we read here, "she was a train-wreck, but I miss the great sex, I'm going to call her". Look at the price some have paid for "the sex".

As we look in the mirror, we should ask, "where are we" (it differs for each of us) in this regard?  Healthy? Emotionally mature? Have past patterns to embrace or to question?

Good points Skip, and in those scenarios the 'notch count' number might be more important.

Philanderers end up being the brunt of jokes too:

"Clinton was the president who was off with the intern between the bushes"

"A lion wouldn't cheat on his wife but a Tiger Wood."

[thisworld]

How many times do we read here, "she was a train-wreck, but I miss the great sex, I'm going to call her". Look at the price some have paid for "the sex".

I think there is an important question here as to how we see ourselves and our own actions not only as "receivers" of something good but as "givers" as well. I'll try to look at this from the other direction.  How to think about myself when I'm able to offer a disordered partner something that he likes and finds "me" attractive for? If he is a sex addict, offering his substance to him and trying to be attractive in his eyes in this regard is a bit like trying to lure someone into something with bribe- for lack of a better word, this isn't my native language. Unless this attraction is experienced in other areas of our life or maybe evolves into a deeper feeling, I would feel like I'm deceiving or using someone I. So, I think unless experienced with an emotionally healthy partner, being able to provide good sex and being liked for it means nothing to me - this would exclude relationships where there is some sort of intimacy or a longer, deeper relationship with the disordered partner I guess, mine wasn't one of those. A lot of us here talk about being liked for something but we don't exactly think who we are was understood or that person liked really matched the way we understood ourselves. I think this is like that. I don't want to be liked for something if I don't feel that that thing is actually "me." Retrospectively, I see that this gap was quite disturbing in my relationship with my ex with BPD. However, I didn't experience this very knowingly as I didn't know the scope of the problem, that it was this disorder through and through.

Which brings me to Eeks's very critical question about humiliation in this relationship. This is where I, reversely, was a "rejected taker". I feel humiliated by my partner in a lot of ways but basically two different types of humiliation. One is abstract. I think when we started living together my partner was engulfed - as I see it now. He had come out of rehab (dropped it) and I would be financing us for a while. We had an agreement about it, that he would continue his recovery, I would look after the house for three months or something so that he gained some strength in his recovery and then seek employment. He was OK with it, I was OK with it. As soon as he moved in he became a really nasty person for a couple of days - which he then attributed to coming out of rehab. I believe he was also engulfed and I was split black due to some reasons though, because I discovered an email written to his confidante ex that I was paying for everything BUT he didn't let me touch him. That "BUT" is probably one of the most humiliating things I have ever read about myself. Did he really think that? Was that something else? I'll never know. This was a blatant lie - the man who didn't let me touch him at that moment was also experiencing erectile dysfunction due to medication temporarily and was very fragile right out of rehab. I do not force fragile people out of rehab into anything, he went through withdrawal in the house because he dropped rehab anyway. All I did was to try to make him feel safe during this with a cuddle. If he soothed his feelings by representing me that way to his ex, good for him. I still think it is horrible (in the context of this triangulation especially, there is something woman to woman going on there).

A private life revealed in front of another female with lies about me was hurtful. (After those couple of days we had a very active sex life but that was of course not mentioned:)) So, the guy humiliated me with absence. It was as painful as some physical transgressions for me. I felt, maybe wrongly, that physical boundaries might somehow be established more strongly, however this capability of turning sex life into something humiliating like this could not be changed.  In physical boundaries a no is a no, here what am I saying no to? If I'm trying to train someone in basic rules of politeness, there is a big gap that may not be closed that easily. Like we discussed with a friend in another thread, sometimes we are ready to tolerate so many things like tantrums, rages, defensiveness but once a small e-mail does something so big, it becomes impossible to be intimate - for me. Of course it is impossible because the other party takes no action to repair the hurt, otherwise this is easily repairable.

This affected me so much that although in the last phase of our relationship I shut up completely emotionally and was trying to send him away without much damage to his fragile health (he overdosed very quickly) I brought this up. I said to him that I felt the way he represented me put me in the position of someone trying to get something (sex) from him by "looking after" him. I said, although he might have guessed otherwise I had no theoretical problems with trying to "buy" sex work but if I wanted to buy it I'd probably have bought it in more exciting settings with a professional whose laundry and dinner I wouldn't worry about afterwards. This gave him a silent shock. I felt like I restored some pride in the least abusive way I could - I believe I made a statement about myself without insulting him about his qualities. I think there was a power fight somewhere and I realize that the way these power fights work is to attribute a role to us (a "buyer" for instance) and then we protest in vain how we are not the "buyer" in vain. The moment I accepted the attributed position but told him how I would actually "buy" it, his established battle ground was shattered. This is my discovery. He explained to me that he always had a problem with a woman buying things (I think this is gender role manipulation, he has no problems with that, and I didn't buy him much. Would he like to walk around in hospital pyjamas really? Plus he is the most demanding male anyway, we split up, he still asks me to give him things like my second bicycle etc etc.) He is like a little child crying for toys in a toy shop.

I believe Eeks's suggestion, listening to the gut, looking at the manners and my decision to communicate more will protect me in the future. I simply will not date people with "odd but harmless" things - I know the feeling so well, I'm scaring myself. I believe whatever I experienced in sex is not about sex per se. It's an area where one aspect of this person is experienced.